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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Sky Miller on May 15, 2014, 07:36:37 PM

Title: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Sky Miller on May 15, 2014, 07:36:37 PM
Hello everyone.
I am building a PA setup for a traveling drum soloist (me). I already have a few amps, some speakers, and I can't spend any more money. I want to get the highest dB level, and very best sound quality from the gear that I have now. Most of the concerts will be outdoors in the beginning, but there are also some dates planned in the future this year for some inside trade shows. My plans for the future (next year) will be to duplicate the same speaker array I have now, and add amps (more crown amps) to accomedate.

I'm not really sure I should be asking this question here, or not, but here goes:

At the present time, I have 6 speaker cabinets, each housing its own dedicated speaker, and another 2 enclosures, each housing its own horn. My typical setup is 3 stacked speakers on each side of the stage, with the horns up top, the subs on the bottom and the main woofers between.

I don't use a passive crossover; I use the built-in crossovers/filters in my Crown DriveCore XLS amps. My XLS 2500 is used for the subs in bridged mono mode, and the other two amps are DriveCore XLS 1000, which are also run in bridge mono mode. Each one dedicated toward pushing one of the woofers.

Now, I already know there are going to be people who are compelled to answer this post with the comment: "tune it to what you think sounds best."  My response to that is, "I will." My reason for posting this is to find out if I am thinking and going about this the right way. If I should be considering something else, I want to know. My settings are based upon what is on paper for now. I suppose I want to go through this in my head first and get some pro's opinions, to be sure I understand the concepts. So you will be looking at the same data I did when I came to my determination of settings.

So until I do my adjustments by ear, I want to hear, from professionals, what general setting they would start with in separating the frequencies, and why. I am exclusively using the Response Curves and other attached data for my choices below.

Speakers:
Here's what I have on each side:
The subs are Eminence Omega Pro 18A= 40Hz to 800Hz 800W RMS 8 ohms each
The Woofers are Eminence Kappa Pro 15A= 46Hz to 4K
500W RMS 8 ohms each
The HF drivers are Peavey RX22= 500Hz to 15KHz

These are my Settings:
Lowpass~3KHz for the Kappa Pro
Lowpass~630Hz for the Omega Pro
 For the RX22 and the Ampeg B2RE amp, I'll cut all frequencies down 12dB except 2K and above, I'll boost. Turn all knobs down (like mid-bass, etc) for the RX22 I hate this setup, but what else can I do except spend more money.

Amplifiers:
The (2) XLS 1000 bridged at 8ohms- 700 watts each
The XLS 2500 bridged at 4 ohms gives me 2400 watts
Don't laugh, but I'm a poor musician. This is all I have
To power the Peavey RX22 HF Compressors, I will be using an Ampeg B2RE amp and will be using the EQ and every other means incorporated in the unit to cut out the lows.

If anyone has other suggestions for me to consider, please feel free to make it known, but I would like to get my questions answered. I already know: sell the Ampeg and get another XLS 1000. (in the process)

*As far as using the DSP features of the DriveCore Series, I didn't find data about the dB curve at the lowpass and highpass filter settings, but am almost positive that whichever setting is choosen, it will not be an absolute drop-off, or will it be; anyone know?

I don't know what the protocol is here. I could just cut and create .jpg files of all the pertinent stuff and attach, or just provide links and keep myself out of trouble. I'd like to make it easier for readers, but legalities are considered. So you'll have to do some scrolling.

Specs for Omega Pro 18A
http://www.usspeaker.com/OmegaPro-18A-1.htm

Specs for Kappa Pro 15A
http://www.usspeaker.com/KappaPro-15A-1.htm

Specs for Peavey RX22 HF Driver
http://peavey.com/products/index.cfm/item/726/94835/RX%26trade%3B22HFDriver

Manual for XLS DriveCore Series Amps (click on Operation Manual) *pdf format
http://www.crownaudio.com/xls-drivecore.html

Cut sheet for Ampeg B2RE amp.
http://www.ampeg.com/products/b/b2re/
* The Users Guide can be downloaded as a .pdf at the bottom of the page
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 15, 2014, 09:36:54 PM
So are these home-built speakers?
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Sky Miller on May 15, 2014, 11:41:36 PM
So are these home-built speakers?
Yes. Built to tuning specs.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 16, 2014, 12:13:02 AM
Yes. Built to tuning specs.
Well, I know that this isn't what you are going to want to hear, especially after reading through your previous threads------

but until someone has taken your "home-made" speakers, and run a trace using SMAART or an equivalent, there's no way anyone is going to know what the response of your boxes is, and can't even begin to determine what crossover points would be used.

So my suggestion, if you want some input from people on here, would be to get some measurements so you can give more information as to what the speakers are actually doing.

So are you going "about this in the right way?" As Ivan would say, "It depends." I'd say that without any measurements to find out what's really going on, you are not.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Sky Miller on May 16, 2014, 12:46:24 AM
So are these home-built speakers?
You are absolutely correct!
That is not what I expected. And I can always, ALWAYS count on never getting an answer to anything when I come here for help. Seems most people want to stick their chest out and basically say, " You stupid idiot. This is really technical stuff we have going on here. We need to know what temperature is is outside and the relative humidity. We can't answer that stupid question. What kind of screws did you use on your enclosures? Did you wipe off your speakers before you installed them? Oh . . . You will dance around the question and tell me how difficult it is to answer, because you are sooo smart and my question is so stupid. Why don't you just read the stinking question and give your best answer. IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT!

This is really technical stuff here buddy. You just can't come in here and ask a simple question. All of us here are so far beyond your infant mind, that you really don't belong here.

Well, ya know? That's exactly how I feel. Some nice, warm, hearty welcome for a newcomer that I certainly DIDN'T receive here. So, you checked out my other posts, heh? One person. ONE PERSON gave me a courteous answer. He knew what I was after and gave his best shot in explaining something to me. I wrote that guy back, but never sent it. I regret that now, because he was NOT like the others I have come in contact with so far on this site. What a bunch of self-important, useless stuffed shirts.

If anyone else out there reading this has something WORTHWHILE that they want to contribute feel free. I certainly would appreciate it. You would be doing me a great favor, and you  would be restoring my faith in humanity, and this forum too.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: duane massey on May 16, 2014, 01:45:02 AM
Unless I misread the manual, the XLS series only allows you to have either a hi-pass or a low-pass filter, but not both. This is not acceptable for anyone trying to do a three-way system with vented boxes (or any other boxes). You need a processor, even something as basic as a Driverack PA. Unless you can do this you will never achieve anything worthwhile with your set-up.
This has nothing to do with DIY cabinets (which could be great, or not), but simply the truth. IF you had a crossover/processor, I would suggest starting with crossover points at 90hz and 2k, but (as Ray said) there is no way to know what settings you really need. If you had more experience and knowledge you could make the adjustments by ear (trial and error), and you may still be able to do this, but not without a processor and the basic skills to set it up. A used DRPA can be found on eBay for under $200.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 16, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Now, I already know there are going to be people who are compelled to answer this post with the comment: "tune it to what you think sounds best."  My response to that is, "I will"

In the absence of any suitable measuring equipment, this is all you can do really.

Lowpass~3KHz for the Kappa Pro
Lowpass~630Hz for the Omega Pro

It's difficult to tell without knowing your cabinet designs, but 630Hz is very high for a sub.

Personally, I'm a fan of people building their own speakers.  Have you got any details we can see?


Steve.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Sky Miller on May 16, 2014, 06:14:44 AM
In the absence of any suitable measuring equipment, this is all you can do really.
This exercise is about working with what you have. And all you have is what is on paper.

It's difficult to tell without knowing your cabinet designs, but 630Hz is very high for a sub.
Don't get hung up about cabinet designs. This is about the "speaker's" response curve; whhat is on paper. The question is about setting crossover points "accordin g to the response curves of each transducer" to reproduce original sounds; period!

Personally, I'm a fan of people building their own speakers.  Have you got any details we can see?
I am so happy to hear something positive come from someone. This is a forum of doom and gloom.


Steve.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 16, 2014, 06:20:11 AM
Not to sound evasive-but as others have said-there is no way of knowing without knowing more information about the cabinets.

Since you "designed" the cabinets-then you should know what the design specs are and whether or not you achieved those specs.

Having some actual measurements (acoustical-not how big the cabinets are) would go a long way.

But unless detailed measurements are provided (including phase response) there is no way to give anything more than a guess as to the parameters needed.

The reason people are hesitant to give suggestions is that they simply don't have enough information to guess with.

Think of it like this-you have asked a question like this.

"Me and some friends of mine are going to a festival in a 15 passenger van.  How much will it cost us to get in?"

Without knowing exactly how many people and what the cost of the tickets are-there is no way to guess.

We could "assume there are a total of 15 people-but there may be only 4 people or 20. 

I know you want a simple answer-but to get a real answer you have to have some real tools to do the processing and real measurements to BEGIN to get some good starting points.

Any answer somebody would give you have lots of other people saying they are wrong.  And EVERYBODY would be right-without more information.

Since you say you are going to adjust it to be right-then go ahead and do it.  And how do you determine what is "right"?
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Sky Miller on May 16, 2014, 06:35:42 AM
Well, I know that this isn't what you are going to want to hear, especially after reading through your previous threads------
Ho-hum. Then why bother. My suggestion to you is to spend more time imparting knowledge upon somebody else and less time trying to come across so knowledgable. Sounded to me like the question was too elementary for you to stoop so low to answer. Anybody can do that! It doesn't matter whether anything is "what" I want to hear or not; just pass on some knowledge.

but until someone has taken your "home-made" speakers, and run a trace using SMAART or an equivalent, there's no way anyone is going to know what the response of your boxes is, and can't even begin to determine what crossover points would be used.
Forget my "homemade" speakers. Use the information given, unless you are incapable. In that case, keep your inadequacies to yourself. Don't shift the blame on the one answering the question.

So my suggestion, if you want some input from people on here, would be to get some measurements so you can give more information as to what the speakers are actually doing.
So you have taken it upon yourself to answer for everybody? Thanks for your suggestion, but here again proves that you have completely missed the point. Answer the question, as it is given- then we can discuss all the other factors involved.

So are you going "about this in the right way?" As Ivan would say, "It depends." I'd say that without any measurements to find out what's really going on, you are not.
Well, you got out of answering another one! You came, you said absolutely nothing, then you left; typical.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Mark McFarlane on May 16, 2014, 06:41:12 AM
Don't get hung up about cabinet designs. ...

Sky, I think you are missing the point. The same speaker in 4 different cabinets will have 4 completely different frequency and phase response curves.  Phase-vs-frequency is as important as frequency-vs-amplitude when you have more than one speaker driver.

Perhaps it would help if you think about a speaker like a car engine: the same engine in a go cart, a sedan, and a dump truck will not respond the same.  No one can tell you how to tune the engine without knowing the details about how it is deployed.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Sky Miller on May 16, 2014, 06:46:25 AM
Unless I misread the manual, the XLS series only allows you to have either a hi-pass or a low-pass filter, but not both.
Like I said, I will be running my amps in bridge-mono, which can be setup as either highpass or low pass. I think you may have missed the part where I said I had three amps. (the fourth I am not going to count)

 This is not acceptable for anyone trying to do a three-way system with vented boxes (or any other boxes). You need a processor, even something as basic as a Driverack PA. Unless you can do this you will never achieve anything worthwhile with your set-up. Thanks for trying.

This has nothing to do with DIY cabinets (which could be great, or not), but simply the truth. IF you had a crossover/processor, I would suggest starting with crossover points at 90hz and 2k, but (as Ray said) there is no way to know what settings you really need. If you had more experience and knowledge you could make the adjustments by ear (trial and error), and you may still be able to do this, but not without a processor and the basic skills to set it up. A used DRPA can be found on eBay for under $200.
Thanks for answering my question about which crossover points you would choose. It would be helpful to know "why" you have chosen those two frequencies. I'm here to learn something; help me out here.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 16, 2014, 07:27:40 AM
Well, you got out of answering another one! You came, you said absolutely nothing, then you left; typical.

So why be an asshole, Skylar?  This ain't Burger King and you're making demands of folks who VOLUNTEER to help others with live audio.  Loudspeaker system design is an entirely different thing, though, and if you want custom work done on your behalf there are several folks (on and off these forums) who we could suggest, but their hourly rates are not friendly for one-off builds.

You want free, accurate advice and you want it now.  I politely suggest that you take your quest to speakerplans.com and overlook the accuracy of most of the advice given there...  but there will be no shortage of folks with an instant answer.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Jim McKeveny on May 16, 2014, 07:36:22 AM
Sky-

Perhaps the Traveling Drum Soloist website would be more helpful?
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Sky Miller on May 16, 2014, 07:38:36 AM
Not to sound evasive-but as others have said-there is no way of knowing without knowing more information about the cabinets.

Since you "designed" the cabinets-then you should know what the design specs are and whether or not you achieved those specs.
Yes. You are correct. But this is not about the "cabinets", its about choosing crossover points using the response curves of the "actual speakers" that I have provided links to.

Having some actual measurements (acoustical-not how big the cabinets are) would go a long way.
I could provide so much data that it would't fit in this forum. Then nobody would bother reading it. Look at what I did provide and work with that. We can always go into detail about everything else later on.

But unless detailed measurements are provided (including phase response) there is no way to give anything more than a guess as to the parameters needed.
There you go! I think you got it! I am looking for an "educated guess", based on the information given. Now that we got that out of the way, what is your educated guess, and why? Please don't forget to tell "why" you chose those crossover points.

The reason people are hesitant to give suggestions is that they simply don't have enough information to guess with.
Then I don't get it. You mean to tell me that if you were put in a bare room and given "only" the information that I provided, you couldn't come up with usable crossover points and an explanation as to why you chose them? OK; lets see how hard we can make this.

Think of it like this-you have asked a question like this.

"Me and some friends of mine are going to a festival in a 15 passenger van.  How much will it cost us to get in?"
How about this? You have a speaker that is capable of reproducing this set of frequencies well. You have another speaker that is able of reproducing these frequencies well. Oh look! These frequencies can be reproduced by both speakers well. What do I do? I don't want to put too much strain on one speaker unnecessarily, so I should split the frequencies so that some are dedicated to one speaker and the others are dedicated to the other. Gee; how do I determine where to split the frequencies up? I know. I'll look at the response curves and see how each speaker responds to a range of frequencies; that should help.

To me, that isn't asking a question without enough information.

Without knowing exactly how many people and what the cost of the tickets are-there is no way to guess.

We could "assume there are a total of 15 people-but there may be only 4 people or 20. 
OK. I give up. What critical data is missing here?
*You have speakers that are capable of reproducing these frequencies. You even have the data that tells you how well the speaker can reproduce a particular range of frequencies.
*You already know, or have a general idea of the range of frequencies to be pushed through the speakers (at least I hope you do)
*You have the capability to assign a set of frequencies to each speaker
*Sure, you know that the enclosures play a big part in what is heard, BUT that part is not given.
Now what are you going to do?

I know you want a simple answer-but to get a real answer you have to have some real tools to do the processing and real measurements to BEGIN to get some good starting points.
OK. What tools? What measurements? Why? If I had a question about tools, you would want to talk about frequency crossover points. God; I can't get past the mentality here.

Any answer somebody would give you have lots of other people saying they are wrong.  And EVERYBODY would be right-without more information.
Alright then. Just sit there and pout. Don't do anything. Don't contribute. Don't try to be a team player. You can be the guy that walks in the kitchen with his hands up in the air and starts shouting, "We don't have any sharp knives. We need bigger pans. We need a bigger sink. Oh my God, we can't cook anything in here!" In the meantime, there is a group of people in the corner making sandwiches for the hungry people.

Since you say you are going to adjust it to be right-then go ahead and do it.  And how do you determine what is "right"?
Enough said Mr Philosopher.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Sky Miller on May 16, 2014, 07:54:45 AM
Hello everyone.
Notice how I started out so polite?
I am building a PA setup for a traveling drum soloist (me). I already have a few amps, some speakers, and I can't spend any more money. I want to get the highest dB level, and very best sound quality from the gear that I have now. Most of the concerts will be outdoors in the beginning, but there are also some dates planned in the future this year for some inside trade shows. My plans for the future (next year) will be to duplicate the same speaker array I have now, and add amps (more crown amps) to accomedate.

I'm not really sure I should be asking this question here, or not, but here goes:
I don't think I should have even come here. From the beginning I have been run over by trains on this site. Every time I was able to get up and walk away. I was forgiving enough to come back and try it again. Seems the train lurks in the darkness, waiting for me to return.

Just forget it! I get absolutely nothing at all when I come here, except agitation. A person can't have any kind of a meaningful discussion here. What you get is a bunch of guys trying to show-off and looking like a bunch of cry-babies. There is nothing at all that I want here. I don't want to be part of this kind of association.

At the present time, I have 6 speaker cabinets, each housing its own dedicated speaker, and another 2 enclosures, each housing its own horn. My typical setup is 3 stacked speakers on each side of the stage, with the horns up top, the subs on the bottom and the main woofers between.

I don't use a passive crossover; I use the built-in crossovers/filters in my Crown DriveCore XLS amps. My XLS 2500 is used for the subs in bridged mono mode, and the other two amps are DriveCore XLS 1000, which are also run in bridge mono mode. Each one dedicated toward pushing one of the woofers.

Now, I already know there are going to be people who are compelled to answer this post with the comment: "tune it to what you think sounds best."  My response to that is, "I will." My reason for posting this is to find out if I am thinking and going about this the right way. If I should be considering something else, I want to know. My settings are based upon what is on paper for now. I suppose I want to go through this in my head first and get some pro's opinions, to be sure I understand the concepts. So you will be looking at the same data I did when I came to my determination of settings.

So until I do my adjustments by ear, I want to hear, from professionals, what general setting they would start with in separating the frequencies, and why. I am exclusively using the Response Curves and other attached data for my choices below.

Speakers:
Here's what I have on each side:
The subs are Eminence Omega Pro 18A= 40Hz to 800Hz 800W RMS 8 ohms each
The Woofers are Eminence Kappa Pro 15A= 46Hz to 4K
500W RMS 8 ohms each
The HF drivers are Peavey RX22= 500Hz to 15KHz

These are my Settings:
Lowpass~3KHz for the Kappa Pro
Lowpass~630Hz for the Omega Pro
 For the RX22 and the Ampeg B2RE amp, I'll cut all frequencies down 12dB except 2K and above, I'll boost. Turn all knobs down (like mid-bass, etc) for the RX22 I hate this setup, but what else can I do except spend more money.

Amplifiers:
The (2) XLS 1000 bridged at 8ohms- 700 watts each
The XLS 2500 bridged at 4 ohms gives me 2400 watts
Don't laugh, but I'm a poor musician. This is all I have
To power the Peavey RX22 HF Compressors, I will be using an Ampeg B2RE amp and will be using the EQ and every other means incorporated in the unit to cut out the lows.

If anyone has other suggestions for me to consider, please feel free to make it known, but I would like to get my questions answered. I already know: sell the Ampeg and get another XLS 1000. (in the process)

*As far as using the DSP features of the DriveCore Series, I didn't find data about the dB curve at the lowpass and highpass filter settings, but am almost positive that whichever setting is choosen, it will not be an absolute drop-off, or will it be; anyone know?

I don't know what the protocol is here. I could just cut and create .jpg files of all the pertinent stuff and attach, or just provide links and keep myself out of trouble. I'd like to make it easier for readers, but legalities are considered. So you'll have to do some scrolling.

Specs for Omega Pro 18A
http://www.usspeaker.com/OmegaPro-18A-1.htm

Specs for Kappa Pro 15A
http://www.usspeaker.com/KappaPro-15A-1.htm

Specs for Peavey RX22 HF Driver
http://peavey.com/products/index.cfm/item/726/94835/RX%26trade%3B22HFDriver

Manual for XLS DriveCore Series Amps (click on Operation Manual) *pdf format
http://www.crownaudio.com/xls-drivecore.html

Cut sheet for Ampeg B2RE amp.
http://www.ampeg.com/products/b/b2re/
* The Users Guide can be downloaded as a .pdf at the bottom of the page
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 16, 2014, 08:06:30 AM
If you want instant settings try 85hz for the sub, 1.6k for the mid.

I'll be sending a bill. could you reply with your address please.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 16, 2014, 08:08:50 AM
All I can say is " HELP US HELP YOU".

You are simply not providing enough information for us to be able to help.

You are looking for "simple answers", but quick simple answers provide WRONG answers.

If all you want to do is "make a lot of noise" then that is easy-but if you want it to be good-YOU have help.

For example-you said you say you "tuned" the cabinets-based on what?  Have you provided that information?

There are all sorts of different "tunings" that can be used-and will give different results for speakers-  Some people want extension-others want maximum output-other want a hump at the low corner-others want maximum power handling.

These are all different tunings-which did you use?  And why?

I know it sounds mean-but accurate answers need accurate data-simple as that.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 16, 2014, 08:27:34 AM
If you want instant settings try 85hz for the sub, 1.6k for the mid.

I'll be sending a bill. could you reply with your address please.
Bob-I disagree- I think 90Hz and 1.8K would be better---------------

Or maybe 80 and 1.2K or maybe 100 and 1.4K.

Any of those should "work" .
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on May 16, 2014, 09:49:12 AM
Step 1:




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on May 16, 2014, 09:49:45 AM
Step 2: Re-read everything Ray, Ivan and others have said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on May 16, 2014, 09:50:45 AM
Bob-I disagree- I think 90Hz and 1.8K would be better---------------

Or maybe 80 and 1.2K or maybe 100 and 1.4K.

Any of those should "work" .

Are those your acoustic or electronic crossover suggestions?   Oh wait, the troll wouldn't be able to get the acoustic crossover correct anyways since he seems to gave no interest in measuring so let him figure it by himself!
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 16, 2014, 11:13:31 AM
Well, you got out of answering another one! You came, you said absolutely nothing, then you left; typical.

I'm offended that you think my short response wasn't answering your question. Please review my post- you asked if you "...are going about this the right way," and I did bluntly answer, "no." The reason I posted what I did, before going to bed last night, was that I knew that the members of this forum who are experienced in building their own speakers (Art Welter is one, by the way.) would need more thorough information in order to answer your question *good* -- and I assumed (mistakenly, it appears) that you wanted a thorough response to your question.

It is fascinating that you assume that speaker building is as simple as looking up a driver for stated specifications, buying it, and drilling it into a box. If that was the case, JBL, EAW, d&b, etc would be coming up with new speakers every two months as they build new drivers. And that simply doesn't happen. They spend literally thousands of hours in house, making sure that the driver AND THE ENCLOSURE performs TOGETHER precisely as they intend it to. This way, I can purchase a brand new JBL STX835, and they can publish the response specs of the unit, and I know it's going to respond how it should. I can plan on it!

The drivers that you selected can sound entirely different based on the enclosure they are installed into. That is why a measurement of the performance of your driver, installed in the box, is a vital piece of information to give you the best information possible.

If you want a quick and dirty answer, several people have given you crossover points. However, you're still going to need to purchase an external crossover, and since you have already stated that you're adverse to spending any money on this project at this time...

If you choose to get a thorough (and as fully correct as is possible without seeing the speakers in person) response, you will need to provide more details as to how your speakers are performing.

So the choice is yours:
- Quick and dirty, based on the minimum information available
- Thorough and accurate, based on good information
--- or continue to ignore the collective *hundreds* of years of knowledge on this forum, and keep pissing people off. That is why we're required to use our full real names on here- the idea is that it keeps a certain level of decorum and professionalism on here. We're attributable to our names, after all. Of course, if no one on here knows who you are, I guess you get away with a bunch, but rest assured if you "make it big" as a "Traveling Soloist,"and end up in a venue with someone from the board, they're going to remember you. That could be awkward.

Just forget it! I get absolutely nothing at all when I come here, except agitation. A person can't have any kind of a meaningful discussion here. What you get is a bunch of guys trying to show-off and looking like a bunch of cry-babies. There is nothing at all that I want here. I don't want to be part of this kind of association.

I'm normally one of the *last* people to say something negative about anyone... but gosh, I feel like no one will be sorry to see you leave.

Good luck--

Ray


PS: There are forums dedicated, as Tim mentioned, to DIY speaker projects. May I respectfully suggest you may get better assistance over there, from people who do DIY speakers all the time? (Many of the people on here are too busy, you know, gigging with pro PA systems to try and fart around with building something from scratch. And have you heard of technical riders?)
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Art Welter on May 16, 2014, 12:03:23 PM

1)At the present time, I have 6 speaker cabinets, each housing its own dedicated speaker, and another 2 enclosures, each housing its own horn. My typical setup is 3 stacked speakers on each side of the stage, with the horns up top, the subs on the bottom and the main woofers between.

2) The subs are Eminence Omega Pro 18A= 40Hz to 800Hz 800W RMS 8 ohms each
The Woofers are Eminence Kappa Pro 15A= 46Hz to 4K
500W RMS 8 ohms each
The HF drivers are Peavey RX22= 500Hz to 15KHz

3)These are my Settings:
Lowpass~3KHz for the Kappa Pro
Lowpass~630Hz for the Omega Pro
 For the RX22 and the Ampeg B2RE amp, I'll cut all frequencies down 12dB except 2K and above, I'll boost. Turn all knobs down (like mid-bass, etc) for the RX22 I hate this setup, but what else can I do except spend more money.

4)Amplifiers:
The (2) XLS 1000 bridged at 8ohms- 700 watts each
The XLS 2500 bridged at 4 ohms gives me 2400 watts
Don't laugh, but I'm a poor musician. This is all I have
To power the Peavey RX22 HF Compressors, I will be using an Ampeg B2RE amp and will be using the EQ and every other means incorporated in the unit to cut out the lows.

5)*As far as using the DSP features of the DriveCore Series, I didn't find data about the dB curve at the lowpass and highpass filter settings, but am almost positive that whichever setting is choosen, it will not be an absolute drop-off, or will it be; anyone know?
Sky,

1) As a general observation,  cabinets putting out frequencies above 100 Hz should be elevated above head height and pointed down at the furthest seating position. With the drivers you have, a crossover in the 100 Hz range between the 18" and 15" will "divide the load" of most pop music reasonably well, and won't require elevating the presumably larger, heavier bass cabinets.
2) You neglected to put in an important detail in determining the upper crossover point, the horn that the compression driver is used on.
3) All cone speakers have a "piston band", a frequency range of linear response determined by the diameter. Above the piston band, dispersion narrows (the speaker "beams") and cone breakup occurs, often creating ragged frequency response and uneven dispersion.  A 15" driver has about 90 degree dispersion at 1200 Hz, if you are using a HF horn with 90 degree dispersion, that would be about as high a crossover point as would be advisable. If you look at the Kappa 15 frequency response, you will notice around a 6 dB peak at 1400 Hz, due to narrowing frequency response and cone breakup.
4) That won't cut it at high levels. The tone controls are shelving, so will reduce LF reaching the HF driver, but it will still be there, only reduced by about 10 dB or so. If you hit the HF with around 10 watts, one watt of bass will still make the diaphragm have enough excursion to hammer the phase plug, which sounds like shit and will generally destroy it fairly quickly. As mentioned before, you either need DSP in all the amps, or an outboard DSP or crossover. I have seen 24 dB per octave analog crossovers go for $25, less than the cost of a blown diaphragm.
5)DSP slopes are generally selectable, read the manual to determine what they are. 24 dB per octave is a good choice for  HF driver protection, steep enough to minimize the crossover overlap region, but not too steep to "ring". Ignoring impedance, in just 1/3 octave a 24 dB slope will reduce the power level by 8 dB, only 1/6 the power it sees above the crossover point. For HF drivers this makes a huge difference, using 24 dB rather than 12 dB can allow a crossover an octave lower. For low frequencies, also helpful, using a 12 dB crossover at 100 Hz you will still hear vocals coming from the subs (unpleasant) while a 24 dB slope will pretty much eliminate that problem.

Art
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Don Boomer on May 16, 2014, 02:44:10 PM
Sky-

Is this basically a playback system for your instrument?  If that's the case then tuning by ear can be perfectly valid.  When setting crossovers there isn't really a single answer.  It depends on what you are running through the system and what you expect to get from the system.

So not having a clue what you are doing I'd still like to make a few recommendations that are basically just repeating Art's advice. 

Set your low pass much lower ... by at least 2 octaves.  I would also recommend setting your high pass lower by an octave ... BUT ... that will put an extra strain on your HF drivers.  The problem you have is that 15" drivers will start to get very beamy above about 1kHz or so.  So above that frequency only people sitting directly on axis will hear from 1kHz up to where you cross into your HF drivers.

What horns are you using with the RX22 drivers.  That will make a big difference on where you can go with this.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Sky Miller on May 16, 2014, 04:57:46 PM
Hello all.
I suppose you can call this my farewell speech.

I didn't come here to make enemies; I came here to make friends. I came here to learn and possibly impart some of what I know to a few of you. I'm really not a bad guy.

I don't mind using my real name, although I think some of you should mask yours in embarrassment. I wouldn't say anything here that I wouldn't say outside of here. I have respect for other people; (that is) those who know how to respect others. I have no regrets saying anything I did here. What I do regret is having stayed here as long as I did. I was hoping to meet a bunch of decent guys who I would eventually become friends with. I have much to offer, but you will never get a chance to know anything about that. I'll be leaving with my dignity in tact.

Unfortunately, I had to battle it out as it seems, with too many clowns here, before I found someone who cared enough about someone's quest for answers to finally take the time to answer, with some purpose and respect.

Art Welter, whoever you are, thanks. When I began reading your response, I was in awe. Your response was polite, respectful, and extremely informative. I only would have hoped that a response like that would have been the FIRST response that I received, then this experience would have gone in another direction and evolved into something very meaningful and rewarding for everyone.

I never forget those who have helped me along in my life and I hold them very special and in high regard. I also don't forget the ones who have caused me grief. When I say, "don't forget" I am not speaking about dwelling on those people, with penned up hate. I simply remember them as being a bad experience and may look back on it with disgust.

What I am saying here is that I had to fight so hard to finally get a decent answer from someone, in which we all could have had a healthy share in discussing, that I'm not interested in continuing. Art, everything you mentioned in your response (and I suggest every last one of you read it), carried a lot of weight. Every thing you said, was worth saying. And if I am not mistaken, you provided a worth-while answer, somewhere else for me; thanks again.

I am so completely drained and exhausted from fighting  and struggling  with a group of you on this site, that I have really become dis-interested in finding any answers here. I was also hoping that I would meet a group of guys that I could converse with and become friends with; how rewarding would that be? What a sad impossibility that turned out to be. It's what I thought this was all about.

Apparently, the people that hang out here on the site are not at all like the some great people that I associate with, from other sites and forums. What the hell happened to you people? If you have no interest in meeting new people and sharing what you know, IMO you shouldn't be given a keyboard license.

I'm not going to spend another minute of my time trying to get you guys to take a good look at yourselves. You can wallar in your own feces the rest of your life, and I hope that the personality you show here isn't the one you carry with you in daily life.

But Art, I am not directing these comments at you. You seem to be the knight in shining armour around here. It's too bad that just being here, makes me want to puke. You and I could very well have hit it off. Maybe we could have a nice conversation, without all these other self-important A-hole losers around.

Don't get me wrong, you A-hole losers; I am not discounting your credentials, knowledge, or wisdom. I don't blame you for wishing you had more information, because whether you know it of not, I know a little something about how important the stinkin speaker enclosure is. And dispite all your smart-ass comments and attempts, I was not going to have my post steered in the direction that YOU wanted it to go. We could have gotten into all of that later- (and I would have loved to) after the reason for my post was satisfied.

So what! If you thought the enclosure was too important to dismiss in answering. There is a nice way to "explain" to someone how important it is in answering the question. Talking about more detail? YOU want more details from ME? How about giving some up first? I spent a lot of time including details in my post, along with including some links. Just admit it, it's a lot easier to stick your head through the door and say, "Need more information." and disappear, rather than take the time to explain why it is so essential that this information is necessary to answer the question. If you don't have anything good to say, then don't bother saying anything at all. And I don't care if you were ready for beddy-bye.

So I am saying, "Forget it!" And if the day ever should come when I "make it big" (by the way, that's not my aspiration), and happen to run into one of you, be sure to come up and introduce yourself. I would love to attach a face with an arrogant personality. Perhaps though, under different circumstances, we could be friends.
---------------------------------------------- Whoa!

I think I might have said "Good-bye" too soon. I just got another really good response! I guess a person has to wade through a bunch of crap, before they get to the good stuff.

Was this my initiation guys? Com'on.

Art has led the way for the decent people, or was it our great moderator. Maybe moving this "out of wack" post was a very ingenious thing to do. All I remember is the last name Kerr. I'll be looking you up to thank you- for one reason, not stopping this maddness, just moving it. And for another, allowing me to answer back to those who make it a point to belittle other people by dazzling them by  with all of their technical knowledge. We can go there, to that deep, dark place of formulas and factors, where you love to lurk, but how about starting in a simple place?

Because now I see that at least there are two people that have enough heart to respond with a decent attitude, I will continue (regretfully to some) and try to start this thing all over.

Thank you too, Don Boomer. I will read the rest of your post and figure out a way to talk with just you and Art.

I can't figure out why the two of you have posted such nice responses and the others just didn't get it. Oh, well.
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 16, 2014, 05:37:44 PM
---------------------------------------------- Whoa!

I think I might have said "Good-bye" too soon. I just got another really good response! I guess a person has to wade through a bunch of crap, before they get to the good stuff.

Was this my initiation guys? Com'on.

Art has led the way for the decent people, or was it our great moderator. Maybe moving this "out of wack" post was a very ingenious thing to do. All I remember is the last name Kerr. I'll be looking you up to thank you- for one reason, not stopping this maddness, just moving it. And for another, allowing me to answer back to those who make it a point to belittle other people by dazzling them by  with all of their technical knowledge. We can go there, to that deep, dark place of formulas and factors, where you love to lurk, but how about starting in a simple place?

Because now I see that at least there are two people that have enough heart to respond with a decent attitude, I will continue (regretfully to some) and try to start this thing all over.

Thank you too, Don Boomer. I will read the rest of your post and figure out a way to talk with just you and Art.

I can't figure out why the two of you have posted such nice responses and the others just didn't get it. Oh, well.

Oh, Sky.

I see several jabs towards me in your post. That hurts, man. If you re-read my initial two posts, they were clearly pointed at the need for a bit more information about the cabinet. I assumed you knew that the cabinet enclosure was an important part of the tonal response of your speakers and therefore that measurements would be helpful, and I apologise for making those assumptions. Had I realised this, I would have explained in more detail why I was asking what I was asking. Please know that I wasn't ever trying to blow you off, or avoid your initial question, but again, knowing the great minds on here, I knew those were questions that would be asked!

As I mentioned before, Art has built his own speakers for many years, so he's really smart in those regards. I don't know Don more then his posts on here. Ivan works for Danley Sound Labs in Florida. I've not built my own speakers (no time, or talent to do so!) so that is why I wasn't directly giving you thoughts on crossover points... but had I done so (which would have been a SWAG)- look at it from my point of view: If I steered you wrong, you'd be mad at me! I was just looking to help good solutions come out as quickly as possible for you.

If you feel that this desire to assist is reason to be a jerk towards me, that is your choice.

Good luck man--

Ray

(in before a lock...)
Title: People Skills (Or Lack Thereof...)
Post by: Russ Davis on May 16, 2014, 05:39:51 PM
I didn't come here to make enemies; I came here to make friends. I came here to learn and possibly impart some of what I know to a few of you. I'm really not a bad guy...

I can't figure out why the two of you have posted such nice responses and the others just didn't get it. Oh, well.

That's a shame, because every years hundreds of new people, many with little or no experience whatsoever and others with years of background themselves, come here and receive respectful, helpful advice from good people who want to help.   Those same people tried to help you as well, but got slapped down with sneering comments like, "And for all of you who want to dazzle me right out of another answer with all your spec questions and comments, just forget about anything else; it's not relevant.  Just because I am listed as a newbie, doesn't mean that I'm stupid. Please don't tell me you need more information."

Despite your arrogance and "rules" (Don't ask me any questions!  Just give me answers!  NOW!!!), folks tried to treat you the same as the other newcomers.  You, however, decided you were special, and rewarded us with mature comments like "It's too bad that just being here, makes me want to puke... Maybe we could have a nice conversation, without all these other self-important A-hole losers around".

I hope your manager (if you have one) is more diplomatic than you.  If you're your own manager, good luck getting and keeping gigs and otherwise coping out there in the business world.  Cheers!

(Expecting this thread to get locked any moment now...)
Title: Re: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 16, 2014, 05:49:00 PM
Hello all.
I suppose you can call this my farewell speech.

You got that right.  Buh bye.

*poof*