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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Dave Horo on July 14, 2014, 04:31:39 PM
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I'm putting together a small PA that will be used exclusively by a vocal-based pop act to play everything from < 100-person clubs to outdoor fairs and festivals of about 500. Figure a max throw of about 80' with people right up in front of the stacks. System will always be stacked... never flown, so pole-mounting or some other rigging arrangement is needed to get the boxes up high.
The goal is to have a system that is relatively small, light and easy to setup, power and use that still has flexibility to do shows of varying sizes and requirements. Assume that any larger shows will be covered by some other PA, so it's very unlikely that boxes will be added to the system in the future. (i.e. I don't need a 16-box line array that I can put on sticks on occasion.)
Budget is roughly around $15k. (just stacks and racks)
My original thought was something like 2 x QSC KW153s and subs per side. It would provide the coverage and SPL required but it's a lot of drivers, boxes, etc. Comb filtering is likely to be an issue with the tops. Active boxes are nice.
The next thought in point-and-shoot would be the d&b Q10 + Q-sub. I know I'm taking a step up in price and quality (which is fine), but I would drop down to one of each box per side to make it work. This fixes the comb filtering and trucking problems... but is one box per side going to to do what I need for coverage and SPL?
Then there's the line array on a stick. I wasn't originally thinking that a LA was the right tool for the job, but the ability to shade the boxes will be a nice option in longer-throw situations. Plus, they will generally truck and setup easier since they are smaller and lighter.
There's the d&b T10 and sub (T-sub, B4), which I think would work well, but would blow the budget to get enough boxes and power to really make it work.
That makes the main contenders the QSC KLA12, db Tech T8 and RCF HDL10A. I've heard and liked the KLA, but with more boxes. Haven't listened to the T8, but heard great things about it.
Any opinions on this options above? Is there anything else I should be looking at? Am I missing any other decision-making points?
- Dave
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l'll trot this pic out once again. Simple & potent small club system. BassBoss AT212 (90 degree) over XSP218.
(http://audiopyle.com/stack.jpg)
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A Fulcrum Acoustics FA12AC over TS215AC per side would do well.
A Danley SM80 over TH118 would also be a good solution.
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I'm always looking affordable. Nothing wrong with the high end and botique manufactures. That being said another option is the new Electro-Voice ETX line of powered boxes. I have both ELX and ZLX boxes for monitors and the ETX are the new flagship of that series. They are a little pricier than QSC, but if I could afford them...
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These are good suggestions, but maybe I need to ask a more basic question before getting in to particular manufacturers or models.
The consensus seems to be for point & shoot boxes... is that what everyone uses for this application? In other words, the "dash" array would only be considered if you already had the boxes for a larger array. It's not ideal but gives flexibility so you don't have to buy extra boxes.
For point source boxes my concern is comb filtering if I need more than one box per side to get the desired coverage or output.
For the Danley, Fulcrum and ETX systems... have you used them at outdoor events for ~500 people with live pop/rock music? If so, can I get by with 1 top and 1 sub per side? Appropriately sizing the system is one of my biggest concerns.
- Dave
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For what you describe I would do point source, one per side, with front fills.
I use Fulcrum FA22AC. The largest show I have used them for so far was Lake Street Dive at a benefit with around 500 people spread out sitting on blankets. I listened at the back of the listening area - 135', and it sounded great. I use FA12 for monitors but have used them for mains on smaller shows. I would feel confident using them out to 80'.
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For point source boxes my concern is comb filtering if I need more than one box per side to get the desired coverage or output.
Don't worry about it too much. People have been putting speakers next to each other for years.
Steve.
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Don't worry about it too much. People have been putting speakers next to each other for years.
Very good point.
But with some of these higher-end systems, can I get away with 1 box instead of 2 for my application? Then I don't need to worry about it at all.
In other words does 1 Fulcrum FA22ac = 2 KW153, or thereabouts? in terms of output level and coverage. If so, it would be a great tradeoff.
- Dave
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Very good point.
But with some of these higher-end systems, can I get away with 1 box instead of 2 for my application? Then I don't need to worry about it at all.
In other words does 1 Fulcrum FA22ac = 2 KW153, or thereabouts? in terms of output level and coverage. If so, it would be a great tradeoff.
- Dave
I heard a KW153 system last weekend, Personally I'd pass on them.
The number of boxes has more to do with coverage, not necessarily SPL, right?
The system I just used last weekend was 2 tops over 2 subs a side, over 500 peeps outside. I have to thank the box designer for making the mix sound so good, 5 of the 6 touring bands made a special trip to FOH to commend me on the mix, it wasn't just my fader movements.
PM me and ill give you details on the rig, it's in your budget, and I can give you references.
Mike
Mike
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A Danley SM80 over TH118 would also be a good solution.
+1 on this suggestion
I have this set up and it is fantastic! Easy to deploy, sounds big and great. Biggest problem I run into is people who "hear" with their "eyes". They can't believe such a small system can sound so good and loud. No complicated processing either, I couldn't be happier with this set up.
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the qsc speakers are great but they dont couple well. with your budget look at the bose 802( series 3) speakers and good 18 subs jbl or ev. the bose sound great (you must use the bose prosscessor) and good amps qsc plx 3102 or 3602 if you have 4 a side you will have a little killer pa that will eaisly cover 500 people outdoors and they are easy to handle and setup. even indoor 2 a side with a single 18 sub will work great. i dont like the bose subs they dont have the kick and they cost a lot and i dont think 4 5inch speakers will put out any real bass . and that system will fit in a mini van and the bose 402s work great as monitors
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+1 on this suggestion
I have this set up and it is fantastic! Easy to deploy, sounds big and great. Biggest problem I run into is people who "hear" with their "eyes". They can't believe such a small system can sound so good and loud. No complicated processing either, I couldn't be happier with this set up.
+2 - I have the SM80 over TH115 (1 over 1 each side) powered by Crown Itech and xti amps and we have covered events up to 300-400 ppl outdoors, nothing real heavy or EDM. We could probably upgrade to 2 TH 118s per side and the SM80 would still keep up. And we routinely get compliments about the sound quality. A more economical sub with equal spl (but a different but still hi-fi sub kick sound) would be the JTR Orbit Shifter which gets a lot of love around here but is a relatively unknown brand outside of the home threater crowd.
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Appreciate the thoughts on the Danley stuff. I'm sure it sounds great, but I prefer to go with all powered boxes if possible.
I got pricing on the Q-series stuff and think I'll have to take a pass. I knew it was expensive, but not that expensive.
I think that makes the two strongest contenders the Fulcrum FA22ac/TS215ac and the Vue H12w/HS25. Not surprisingly, they are very close in price. It seems like either would do what I need with a minimum of boxes and setup... slightly easier to manage than the line array boxes and less hassle.
I haven't heard either system yet but assume I couldn't go wrong with either one.
Any other opinions? Am I missing an obvious contender?
- Dave
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After some more research, my thinking above still holds, but I don't think I'm going to have the budget for a full Fulcrum or Vue system, which means I'm going to skimp on the subs for now and possibly add or change them later.
I think I can get into the Danley TH115Ps or possibly TH118Ps and still make the budget. Should I have any concerns about those keeping up with the tops? Are there other subs in a similar (or lower) price range I should consider instead?
Alternatively, I can go with 4 of something less expensive like QSC KW181s, DB SUB18Ds, EV ETX, etc. and try to move up to proper subs that match the tops as budget allows.
(Incidentally, the reason the SM80 isn't on the list is because I really want everything to be powered.)
Once again, I appreciate everyone's thoughts and insight.
- Dave
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I have both the TH-118 and TH-115 and the TH-118 is lower and louder and better in the same size box. If you could arrange to demo the SM-80 with the subs you might change your mind about going all powered. The SM-80 box is just too small to stick an amp in but the combination with the TH-118 is astonishingly good. With small, light, powerful amps on the market these days it wouldn't add much to carry the power for this set up. A Powersoft M50Q and a one space crossover would be TWO RACK SPACES, or a couple of iTechs would be five.
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(Incidentally, the reason the SM80 isn't on the list is because I really want everything to be powered.)
Once again, I appreciate everyone's thoughts and insight.
- Dave
Why did you consider d&b Q-series, if you want self-powered?
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Why did you consider d&b Q-series, if you want self-powered?
Valid question. Basically because I consider them the gold standard of what I was trying to do... high (build) quality, audio quality and light/small for the performance provided. The goal is to see if I can achieve all those things in a most cost-effective package.
- Dave
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The Vue is a serious box. Sounds fantastic and easy to deploy.
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The Vue is a serious box. Sounds fantastic and easy to deploy.
That's what I've heard, but I can't find any local to listen to.
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That's what I've heard, but I can't find any local to listen to.
Where is "local"?
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Where is "local"?
THe AL-4's and AL-8's are also seriously expensive. The list on 8 AL-4's, two flybar's and a V4 systems engine (amp and processing) is $43,000 list. From the folks that have heard them have been awestruck and that's a serious word. I think the company that invests in a complete AL inventory and training is going to have a real edge on the competition that are invested in 10 year old technology.
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Dear Dave,
The FBT Vertus CLA might be a great choice, compact self powered line array units that can be stacked rather high, are easy to setup, not very expensive and likely very suitable for vocal applications.
www.fbt.it
Else unpowered maybe TW Audio MY-SYS-ONE or the powered Joker Series i.e. JK318A by Master Audio.
www.twaudio.de
www.master-audio.com
I could imagine that the high end line arry systems by D&B Audiotechnik, L'Acoustics and Meyer etc. will indeed exceed your budget unless you truly want to end up with a 2 top 2 sub scenario. But if you are ready for that scenario I'd rather go for something like Meyer Sound JM-1P or MSL-6 or any of their other powered point source or the powered L'Acoustics coaxial P Series. Unpowered maybe E Series from D&B Audiotechnik or the ARCS from L'Acoustics... or possibly the less costly JBL VRX line..
Below is a picture of the FBT Vertus CLA.
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Where is "local"?
Philadelphia area.
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Another suggestion.. RCF...
RCF NX L-24A and RCF SUB8004-AS (As seen below)
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Yuck, column line arrays... Sorry but IMO I'll take a regular box over the columns, I was not impressed with the performance of the small drivers. My experience stems from the RH iconyx. Don't forget that OP also needs music to amplify also, not just vocals.
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I have ETX and QSC boxes.
Either one will do what you want with 2 a side. The ETX boxes do sound better IMO.
Either one will also have decent resale value and be easy to move if down the line you decide you need something different.
The QSC boxes could be had for a good value used right now and make your return on investment potentially make more "cents"
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Oh were is my post from beginning of the year...
Tops: I would lean towards the FA22ac for the 500 person crowds and 'louder' SPL requirements... My second choice is the FA12ac (you'll save about $750-1000 per cab) are great as well and can cover 500 people with a lower SPL requirements. Kirby Y has the FA12ac/TS215ac combo and regularly mixes outdoor community events with 500 person crowds; but SPL limits enforced.
Subs: I'll be selling off my IT8000/SRX718s (x4) in favor of the TS215ac (x2)... but I'll look at other subs as well when the time comes (1-2 years out).
This weekend, I am using just the FA22ac in a 100 person bar with a rock band. I'll report back.
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Another suggestion.. RCF...
RCF NX L-24A and RCF SUB8004-AS (As seen below)
I have tried these RCF column cabinets at an outdoor event and I was highly impressed at the output, coverage, and fidelity that was coming out of them. True, there are some column line arrays that come up a bit short but these were standouts.