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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Ryan O John on January 10, 2014, 10:06:41 PM
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Do you guys do this? delay one mic to the other?
Tell me which you prefer in each pair, and why.
One in each pair has the top mic delayed to the bottom mic (done on a midas pro2 with a multitrack no eq, no comp, no gate, just a file with delay ON and a file with delay OFF)
http://ryanojohn.com/snare%201-6/snare%201.wav
http://ryanojohn.com/snare%201-6/snare%202.wav
http://ryanojohn.com/snare%201-6/snare%203.wav
http://ryanojohn.com/snare%201-6/snare%204.wav
http://ryanojohn.com/snare%201-6/snare%205.wav
http://ryanojohn.com/snare%201-6/snare%206.wav
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I would have to hear it in the mix. Files 2, 4 and 5 all sound more impulsive (aligned?) while 1, 3 and 6 sound softer (unaligned?).
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I have never put two microphones on a snare. In Ye Olden Dayes, we would use an SM57 balanced between snare and hi hat.
Steve.
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I think it is a worthless experiment. The heads are so close together that any delay greater than about half of a millisecond (0.0005 seconds) will simply screw up the phase between top and bottom head which will thin or weaken the sound. You will get a better result if you reverse the phase of one microphone. However, if both mics are not facing each other at proper parallel, (i.e., both perpendicular to the heads,) even that may not give the best results.
My best snare results have come from an overhead sdc mic blended with a close mic on the top head for added attack. Then compress to taste and toss in a short gated-reverb for fatness. ;)
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If you want delay then use a good delay. If you want a fuller sound and wish to enhance the sound of the snare itself then top and bottom, with the bottom mic out of phase from the top mic. Experiment to your hearts desire, but I think in the end you'll find Gordon's statements to be pretty spot on.
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Perhaps to get some obscure studio sound, but in general I would not expect any improvement over one well placed mic.
JR
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Perhaps to get some obscure studio sound, but in general I would not expect any improvement over one well placed mic.
JR
Yet another of the things that so many people forget. MIC PLACEMENT! A well placed mic will work SOOOOO much better than any "fix it in the mix" technique with any eq-gate-comp etc.
But that is a BASIC thing-and "not as cool" as simply doing it right. :(
Using a tool properly works better than trying to "hop it up" later.
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Yet another of the things that so many people forget. MIC PLACEMENT! A well placed mic will work SOOOOO much better than any "fix it in the mix" technique with any eq-gate-comp etc.
But that is a BASIC thing-and "not as cool" as simply doing it right. :(
Using a tool properly works better than trying to "hop it up" later.
oz of prevention : lb if cure
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Perhaps to get some obscure studio sound, but in general I would not expect any improvement over one well placed mic.
JR
I am of the "single mic" school also. I also prefer more neutral sounding mics, rather than trying to add together mics that each hype some single aspect of the entire sound.
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How was the signal delayed "to" something? I don't even understand exactly what you did. Delayed in reference to what listener?
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How was the signal delayed "to" something? I don't even understand exactly what you did. Delayed in reference to what listener?
One snare drum mic was delayed relative to the other snare drum mic.
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Delayed in reference to what listener?
Obama...
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How was the signal delayed "to" something? I don't even understand exactly what you did. Delayed in reference to what listener?
When pointing two mics at the top and bottom sides of the same drum there are more opportunities for smearing waveforms than cleaning anything up.
In that case there are actually two sound sources. The Batter head is the original source, and the resonant head a secondary source.
There may be some merit in theory to time aligning the top and bottom mic (and polarity) so they are coherent and reinforce, but you can only make it right for the lower fundamental drum resonance where both heads vibrate together, or right for the upper overtones local to the batter head, but not both, so one or the other will not sum constructively.
Perhaps some studio fun to preferentially favor one resonance series over the others, but not an accurate representation of the drum's sound IMO.
JR
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Have any of you ever used the Waves In Phase Live plugin? I've found this the best way to align mics for phase coherency in both my studio and in live use. It's a gem and super easy/intuitive to use.
I've also enjoyed using pink noise routed to an input channel, placing a gate before the noise generator, and keying the gate to the snare mic. This way the gate opens up and allows the pink noise to come through playback every time the snare hits. If you're looking for the snare "rattle" sound this is one of the coolest ways to get it to give that sound without having to worry about any phase issues. You can also change the attack/release times of the "rattle" with the gate. Just send the channel to a verb with little/no pre-delay to make it sit back in the mix a little easier.
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You will get a better result if you reverse the phase of one microphone.
Polarity :)
I tend to use 2 mics with the polarity reversed on the bottom mic myself. Mainly to get more snare snap when needed. If the drum has plenty of "body" from the top mic but no enough snap, I'll high pass the bottom mic relatively high. Depending on the drummer, snare drum, and tuning, I may not need the bottom mic at all. But it great to have there when you need to get more snap of the snares. It's a drag to not have it when the snare is all "body" with no sizzle with top only micing. Generally speaking, I get the best snare sound with a properly tuned snare drum and someone who knows how to hit it properly more than any other factor (mic model, placement, 1 vs. 2 mics, etc).
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Greg's answer is the most rational one for live sound: Bottom mic acts as a safety.
A big assumption here is that the drummer & mates (who have heard & worked with the sound and tuning and have made the artistic decision that it is appropriate) appreciate efforts to work it.
Tweaking it up may not be what they have in mind.
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One snare drum mic was delayed relative to the other snare drum mic.
But if you have 2 mics pointing toward each other delaying would not time align it would just move the mics away from each other unless you were phase aligning... No?
Or did I miss something in the experiment , delaying snare mic to overhead or something?
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But if you have 2 mics pointing toward each other delaying would not time align it would just move the mics away from each other unless you were phase aligning... No?
Or did I miss something in the experiment , delaying snare mic to overhead or something?
The top mic is closer to the top head where the sound originates. You would delay it a millisecond or so to match arrival time at the bottom mic. Except it's never that simple, especially since the sound arriving at the bottom mic is drastically altered by the time it gets there.
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I'll just say that folk have been getting great snare sounds for years without any fancy bottom mic delay tricks for decades. I wouldn't worry about it.