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Title: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 19, 2014, 01:15:14 AM
Hi everyone,
I am in need of help/advice for a sound system I'm trying to design. It is for a rather unique application so let me take a minute to explain the application it will be used in.
I am designing a sound system for a competitive indoor percussion ensemble. Basically take the drumline section of a marching band and take it inside to a gym floor. This link will give you an idea of the activity - http://youtu.be/x4DvCRHbZbU
This application comes with it's own set of challenges, first being it's got to be easy to setup. This is a timed event so a quick setup is essential. Most of the ensembles this group competes against run 1 speaker cable from the L and R speaker/sub set to an amp. Ideally that's the setup I'm looking for as well, but a max of 2 cables would be ok. The next challenge that comes with this activity is the venue size. The venue in the link provided is where the final competition of the season is held. It is the University of Dayton Arena - a college basketball arena. Although they only use half of the arena for seating.
I've been looking at several speakers and subs to suit the needs of this ensemble but can't come up with anything I'm super happy with. So I thought reaching out to other sound system designers would be the next best option.
For the system I need a minimum of 2 subs, but ideally 4 total, preferably 18" - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX2181, the EV TX1181, and the JBL PRX418S. I'm also looking at 4 mains with 15" woofers - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX1152 and the JBL PRX415M. Reasoning for 4 mains is simply for the high end, but if something like the EV TX2152 or the JBL PRX425 would work for great high end sound I would not be opposed to them. Finally, I need to power it all. Again, because of application, daisy chaining would be the most practical way to connect all of the speakers in a L/R setup.
I apologize for the long post, but wanted to get as much info on the table up front as possible. Any and all suggestions are very much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help!
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 19, 2014, 07:42:54 AM
Hi everyone,
I am in need of help/advice for a sound system I'm trying to design. It is for a rather unique application so let me take a minute to explain the application it will be used in.
I am designing a sound system for a competitive indoor percussion ensemble. Basically take the drumline section of a marching band and take it inside to a gym floor. This link will give you an idea of the activity - http://youtu.be/x4DvCRHbZbU
This application comes with it's own set of challenges, first being it's got to be easy to setup. This is a timed event so a quick setup is essential. Most of the ensembles this group competes against run 1 speaker cable from the L and R speaker/sub set to an amp. Ideally that's the setup I'm looking for as well, but a max of 2 cables would be ok. The next challenge that comes with this activity is the venue size. The venue in the link provided is where the final competition of the season is held. It is the University of Dayton Arena - a college basketball arena. Although they only use half of the arena for seating.
I've been looking at several speakers and subs to suit the needs of this ensemble but can't come up with anything I'm super happy with. So I thought reaching out to other sound system designers would be the next best option.
For the system I need a minimum of 2 subs, but ideally 4 total, preferably 18" - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX2181, the EV TX1181, and the JBL PRX418S. I'm also looking at 4 mains with 15" woofers - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX1152 and the JBL PRX415M. Reasoning for 4 mains is simply for the high end, but if something like the EV TX2152 or the JBL PRX425 would work for great high end sound I would not be opposed to them. Finally, I need to power it all. Again, because of application, daisy chaining would be the most practical way to connect all of the speakers in a L/R setup.
I apologize for the long post, but wanted to get as much info on the table up front as possible. Any and all suggestions are very much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help!
But you forgot the most important thing-what is your budget?

Drum lines can get LOUD-especially indoors-so the real question is how loud does the sound system need to be to compete?  Does it need to be as loud?  Or just so the audience can "hear something" coming out of the PA.

You will get better sound if you use ONE main per side-but of a higher quality/greater output.  When you use 2 (trying to get louder) you will get louder-but also sound worse and less clear.

Of course louder boxes generally mean heavier and larger-so this is a consideration.

Do you want quantity or quality or ease of moving or price?
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Sammy Barr on February 19, 2014, 09:39:42 AM
The synth patches and extreme volumes should lead you to higher end boxes. One of our local groups uses JBL srx 712m  tops over srx 718 powered with a crown xti4000. Sounds really good, yes it needs more power but usually you are provided one outlet for everything. Throwing a breaker mid show is not cool.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Brad Weber on February 19, 2014, 09:59:43 AM
Since the more we know about the situation the better we can respond, in addition to the budget, size and weight issues that Ivan noted, is the speaker system primarily to reproduce the keyboards and bass?  Do you have any idea of the dimensions of your typical venues or at least of the typical performance area?
 
You mentioned a L/R setup, are you actually thinking stereo reproduction?  Do you typically have audience seating that wraps around the sides of the performance area as in that video?  Stereo reproduction would be difficult with that type of seating arrangement.  If that seating is common then would a mono system with one subwoofer and main to each side and two or three subwoofers with mains across the front be feasible?  That would seem to possibly provide reasonable mono coverage of the audience.
 
Why did you select the speakers you mentioned?  Are they what you have seen used successfully by others or was there some other basis?  Do you have any idea of what others use that seem to work well or to not work well?
 
If you are always using subwoofers then you can probably use, and may actually prefer, mains with 12" woofers.  Being smaller, lighter and usually less expensive than their 15" counterparts may also help in your situation.
 
It sounds like you are ideally looking for subwoofers with integrated crossovers (i.e. a high pass output) that then feed the related main(s), is that correct?  Do you, or will you, have any other system processing?
 
Do you already have the amplification or will that be purchased based on the speakers selected?  And following up on Sammy's post, what power provisions are usually available?  If you are limited on power you may want to look at speakers with higher sensitivities (e.g. speakers that will get louder for a given input power).
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 19, 2014, 01:33:04 PM
Thanks for all of the feedback. I will do my best to answer all of the questions presented in the previous posts here:

What is my budget?
The ensemble I'm designing this system for didn't give me a specific budget. Just asked me to propose to them a "Good, better, best" scenario.

How loud does the system need to be?
The higher the output db, the better. Obviously as mentioned, the drums can get loud. Running through this system will be 14 instrument mics, 2 synthesizers, bass guitar, and voiceover samples. The system needs to be loud enough that the voiceovers can be heard over the other noise in the room.

Dimensions of typical venue or performance area?
The biggest venue the ensemble goes to is the University of Dayton Arena. They are designing the show to that venue so that's what the sound system needs to be adapted to. Granted it's not ideal for all venues the ensemble will compete in, but the University of Dayton Arena is the most important venue. I'll continue looking for dimensions of the arena but so far I've not had much luck.

Quality or ease of moving?
Both would be ideal, however, I know that's a "perfect" scenario. Given that they want a "good, better, best" scenario at this point all options are possible.

Am I thinking stereo setup?
Yes. Typically there is no audience wrapping around the competition area. Typically the audience is only on the front side. So a stereo setup will work.

Why did I select the speakers I did?
The ensemble has a sponsorship that will not allow me to use the Yamaha gear that has been suggested to the ensemble before they asked me to help them out. So I set out searching the Full Compass and Sweetwater websites for new mains/subs for them.

Do I have any idea what others use that seems to work well?
There is a big variety in what other ensembles are using. Many use the Yamaha Club Series, but as mentioned above, this ensemble can't use those. Some ensembles use the full range dual 15 inch cabinet on top of dual 18 inch subs on each side (L/R), some use a single 15 inch cabinet on top of a single 18 inch sub on each side (L/R), and one uses 2 18 inch subs near the center and 2 15 inch powered mains on each side (L/R). I hesitate to suggest using powered speakers because they currently have powered subs and they do not like them much at all.

Do I, or will I, have other signal processing?
At the moment the only signal processing the ensemble has is what is built into the Behringer X32 console. If needed, more could probably be purchased, but I'd have to run it by the ensemble directors.

Do I already have amplification or will that be purchased based on the speakers selected?
The amplification will be purchased based on the speakers selected. They currently have 2 Crown XLS 1000 amps, but based on anything I've been looking at for them, those will not work. So I intend to replace those amps once I know what speakers I want to suggest to them.

What power is available?
Usually there is a single 120V plug available for the ensemble to use in competition. Which obviously leaves me pretty limited. Everything on the ensemble's end is connected to a Furman power conditioner but the exact model of that escapes me at the moment.

I think that answers all of the questions that have been asked at this point. Again, I appreciate everyone's assistance with this. If more details are needed, please let me know.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on February 19, 2014, 05:49:10 PM
Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying you go to competitions and every band brings their own PA system and has to set it up before they perform? Why doesn't the venue hosting the event bring in something appropriate from a local provider and have everybody patch in like any other live event?
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 19, 2014, 06:24:29 PM
Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying you go to competitions and every band brings their own PA system and has to set it up before they perform? Why doesn't the venue hosting the event bring in something appropriate from a local provider and have everybody patch in like any other live event?
But that would be FAIR-and who wants that in a competition----------------
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 19, 2014, 07:34:24 PM
Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying you go to competitions and every band brings their own PA system and has to set it up before they perform? Why doesn't the venue hosting the event bring in something appropriate from a local provider and have everybody patch in like any other live event?

You understand correctly. The reason there's no house system is because the use of the sound system at rehearsals is when everything is determined. So every ensemble has an audio person on staff to setup and mix the ensemble's sound. By having your own system you know exactly what you're going to hear. Then at the competitions that audio person is allowed to sit near the judges and mix via network connection (provided by that ensemble) during the performance. It basically comes down to the need to have the same sound system in rehearsal as you'll have at the competition. Sure it would make life 100 times easier to patch into a house system, but then again, it adds just one more element to the competition.  :)
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on February 19, 2014, 08:26:14 PM
Sure it would make life 100 times easier to patch into a house system, but then again, it adds just one more element to the competition.  :)
Yeah.. loudest PA wins.  :-\

The problem here and probably the reason nobody has actually suggested any equipment yet is because the right system for a space like that in the video could look a lot like a full blown concert system.. hundreds of thousands of dollars in speakers flown and arrayed.. if you want all seats to hear the same thing that is. If it's just the judges you're appealing to then that's a whole different game.. a single ground stacked "cluster" would do the job.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 19, 2014, 08:59:28 PM
Yeah.. loudest PA wins.  :-\

The problem here and probably the reason nobody has actually suggested any equipment yet is because the right system for a space like that in the video could look a lot like a full blown concert system.. hundreds of thousands of dollars in speakers flown and arrayed.. if you want all seats to hear the same thing that is. If it's just the judges you're appealing to then that's a whole different game.. a single ground stacked "cluster" would do the job.
The "standard" answer is "It depends".

Without knowing the goal of the system or design-there is no way to give a real usable answer.

Sure- some answers "might" work-but how would you know-without knowing the "target" and what you have to "shoot at it".
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 19, 2014, 09:05:15 PM
Yeah.. loudest PA wins.  :-\

The problem here and probably the reason nobody has actually suggested any equipment yet is because the right system for a space like that in the video could look a lot like a full blown concert system.. hundreds of thousands of dollars in speakers flown and arrayed.. if you want all seats to hear the same thing that is. If it's just the judges you're appealing to then that's a whole different game.. a single ground stacked "cluster" would do the job.

Don't forget the "single 120 volt plug" limitation...
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 20, 2014, 04:17:31 AM
Yeah.. loudest PA wins.  :-\

The problem here and probably the reason nobody has actually suggested any equipment yet is because the right system for a space like that in the video could look a lot like a full blown concert system.. hundreds of thousands of dollars in speakers flown and arrayed.. if you want all seats to hear the same thing that is. If it's just the judges you're appealing to then that's a whole different game.. a single ground stacked "cluster" would do the job.

I apologize for the confusion. Having been involved with the activity for quite some time, I tend to over look details that are important to anyone who is unfamiliar with the activity.

It is correct that it is the judges I'm trying to appeal to. If you look at the photo called "SeatingChart" that I've attached to this post you'll see the "target" area. Typically the "clusters" are setup near the edge of the competition floor and then aimed at the judges (who sit anywhere inside the pink box). Everyone in the blurred out areas get what they get as far as audio quality goes. Obviously by adjusting angles on the competition floor I can cover more audience area, but the place it has to sound the best is up where the judges are. The photo attached to this post called "setup" shows a typical setup for an ensemble during their performance. This was the best quality photo I could find but I think it serves it's purpose. I was just trying to find an example of a typical setup.

The system in the video I linked to in my original post consists of 2 15 inch woofer mains at the far L/R sides of the competition area and 2 18 inch subs that are splitting each half of the competition area. And as previously mentioned, I've seen everything from other setups similar to this, others using a single 18" sub and single 15" main on the L/R corners of the competition area, dual 15" main and dual 18" subs on the L/R corners of the competition area, dual 15" main on the L/R corners of the competition area with dual 18" sub centered on the front edge of the competition area, and one of the biggest setups I've seen had dual 15" mains and dual 18" subs setup on the corners of the competition area and then had 2 dual active 15" mains on the front of the competition area splitting the halves of the competition area. Just to give some idea of the various setups that are used.

So as Paul G. OBrien said, a single ground stacked "cluster" will work for my application.

Again I apologize for the confusion and lack of clarity in my posts. I hope this information helps clear up some of the missing details. Thanks everyone again for all of your input.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 20, 2014, 07:31:12 AM
I apologize for the confusion. Having been involved with the activity for quite some time, I tend to over look details that are important to anyone who is unfamiliar with the activity.

It is correct that it is the judges I'm trying to appeal to. If you look at the photo called "SeatingChart" that I've attached to this post you'll see the "target" area. Typically the "clusters" are setup near the edge of the competition floor and then aimed at the judges (who sit anywhere inside the pink box). Everyone in the blurred out areas get what they get as far as audio quality goes.
Generally that is NOT the goal of a "sound system design".

Deliberately excluding the large majority of the people who come to see you and support you  is not good in my opinion.

I know you are there to "win" and probably everybody else is doing the same.

So if that is your goal-then here is a solution that will work very well.

Simply move the speaker right up close to the judges.  This way they will have a lot more of the direct sound of the speakers with much less "room", they will tighter punchier bass-clearer highs and so forth.

If THEY are the main concern-then that is how to do it-simple.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 20, 2014, 12:09:26 PM
Generally that is NOT the goal of a "sound system design".

Deliberately excluding the large majority of the people who come to see you and support you  is not good in my opinion.

So if that is your goal-then here is a solution that will work very well.

Simply move the speaker right up close to the judges.  This way they will have a lot more of the direct sound of the speakers with much less "room", they will tighter punchier bass-clearer highs and so forth.

If THEY are the main concern-then that is how to do it-simple.

I definitely understand that this is not the general goal of a system design. But the people who come to the show to support the ensembles understand that they're not going to a concert where everything will be crystal clear no matter where you're sitting. It just comes with the territory of the activity. It's not something that the ensembles do intentionally, but a side effect of the application in which we have to use these systems.

Ensembles in competition get a given amount of time to setup, perform, and tear down. For the ensemble I'm designing this system, they get 9 minutes. That generally breaks down to 2 minutes to setup, 6 minutes to perform the show, 1 minute to get off. That time constraint is the deciding factor into most ensembles using the "clusters" at the L/R corners of the competition area. If you're sitting near the judges, then you'll hear everything nice and a it's intended. As you move away, well you get what you get.

The solution you suggested would be the most ideal, but there's a rule that stops us from doing that. There would be a major penalty given if we put anything up in the audience area that is part of the show. So unfortunately there's no way to avoid all of the "room."
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on February 20, 2014, 02:38:19 PM
Well it doesn't sound to me like you need anything earth shattering. Grab some better quality(JBL STX) cabs for better vocal clarity... maybe a dual 15 835 over a dual 18 828, some crown amps with built-in processing in a prewired rack with a patch panel on it so you just need 1 heavy gauge NL4 cable to each stack and a jumper from the subs to tops. Build/buy 2 caster boards for the stacks so they can just be rolled into place and connected. Done.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 20, 2014, 03:08:26 PM
Well it doesn't sound to me like you need anything earth shattering. Grab some better quality(JBL STX) cabs for better vocal clarity... maybe a dual 15 835 over a dual 18 828, some crown amps with built-in processing in a prewired rack with a patch panel on it so you just need 1 heavy gauge NL4 cable to each stack and a jumper from the subs to tops. Build/buy 2 caster boards for the stacks so they can just be rolled into place and connected. Done.

That setup sounds fantastic! Forgive me though, can you elaborate on how the NL4 cable works? I'm completely new to the NL4 connector. All I know about it is that you can send 2 signals down the one cable. So in my application, how would I prewire the rack patch panel to enable me to use a single cable to each stack?
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on February 20, 2014, 03:56:09 PM
That setup sounds fantastic! Forgive me though, can you elaborate on how the NL4 cable works? I'm completely new to the NL4 connector. All I know about it is that you can send 2 signals down the one cable. So in my application, how would I prewire the rack patch panel to enable me to use a single cable to each stack?
Simple enough, the NL4 connector has 4 conductors so +/-1 get connected to the amp channel providing output to the mains and +/-2 go to the channel providing sub output. You need a minimum of 2 stereo amplifiers for this... 2 channels for each stack. At the speaker end you have to make sure that the sub is configured to use the +/-2 pair(switch on back) and that means the +/-1 pair are just passed through to the other NL4 connector where you connect the jumper to the tops.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Taylor Hall on February 20, 2014, 04:01:15 PM
As a 4-year veteran of indoor drumline competitions and PASIC semi-finalist I wish you the best of luck.

It's amazing seeing how the sport has evolved since then. We were cutting edge back in 2003 utilizing a pair of PA speakers on poles for a keyboard, and now competitors are using setups that would rival some people's B-rigs.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Art Welter on February 20, 2014, 04:24:22 PM
That setup sounds fantastic!
Jason,
For what you are doing, a pair of "old school" 2x15" with HF horns on a cart with the speakers already plugged in to your present amps would be more clear than two "stacks".

The cart could have a sound transparent scrim (with your logo or a set design)in front of the speakers, the cart behind the band. The band gets to hear what the audience (and you and the judges) hear, and with two 60 degree cabinets splayed out, and angled up, the coverage will be far more uniform and coherent than two stacks, as well as the low end gains 3 dB from mutual coupling, equivalent to doubling your amp power with no speaker power compression.

The JBL STX would be OK, but older EV (like the 2x15" Eliminator series) are more efficient.
Your amps can do 1100 watts mono at four ohms, more than enough for older, more efficient cabinets designed in an era when 600 watts was a lot.
If the usual 45-50 Hz low frequency response of 2x15"/HF horn is not enough, you could use one amp for the two top cabinets and the other amp for sub(s), but still keep the system on one cart for more "punch".

Convention usually dictates  separate L/R system deployment, but there is no reason for you to be tied to convention.
Your goal is loud, clear, efficient (one 20 amp circuit) and fast deployment, all of which scream single point deployment to me.

The few times I have had the opportunity to set up single point systems have been "ear openers".

Art
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 20, 2014, 05:00:45 PM

Convention usually dictates  separate L/R system deployment, but there is no reason for you to be tied to convention.
Your goal is loud, clear, efficient (one 20 amp circuit) and fast deployment, all of which scream single point deployment to me.

The few times I have had the opportunity to set up single point systems have been "ear openers".

Art
Which is EXACTLY why most of my designs start with a single center speaker(s) and work out from there.

If CLARITY and localization are important-this is the way to do it.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Brad Weber on February 21, 2014, 09:11:53 AM
Convention usually dictates  separate L/R system deployment, but there is no reason for you to be tied to convention.
Your goal is loud, clear, efficient (one 20 amp circuit) and fast deployment, all of which scream single point deployment to me.

The few times I have had the opportunity to set up single point systems have been "ear openers".
I've been surprised how much people involved in drumline, drum and bugle corps, marching band, etc. performances seem very concerned with 'soundstage' and 'imaging' but don't seem to understand how difficult that is to achieve for large audience areas.  Jason's post helps clairfy that they may only be concerned with what certain listeners hear and don't really care what everyone else hears.  That is a completely different situation than trying to serve all the listeners.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Rob Spence on February 21, 2014, 09:34:34 AM
One thing I didn't see was what "instruments" are the majority users of the PA?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 21, 2014, 09:56:17 AM
One thing I didn't see was what "instruments" are the majority users of the PA?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I'm trying to understand why drum lines need PA systems.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Tim Perry on February 21, 2014, 10:44:29 AM
I'm trying to understand why drum lines need PA systems.

Not needed except for announcements and introduction and awards.

The local long running competition expressly forbid the use of PA systems.

http://www.drumsalongthemohawk.com/


Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 21, 2014, 12:42:28 PM
Not needed except for announcements and induction and awards.

The local long running competition expressly forbid the use of PA systems.

http://www.drumsalongthemohawk.com/

10 years ago, this would've been a fair and valid statement. However, with where the activity has progressed to now, having a high quality soundstage is just as important as the instruments being used for the competition. There's not a single ensemble involved in the activity that doesn't have some sort of amplification as a part of their setup.

One thing I didn't see was what "instruments" are the majority users of the PA?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

The system I'm working one for this particular will have 10 marimba mics (5 total marimbas with 2 mics per instrument), 4 vibraphone mics, 2 synthesizers, a bass guitar, and electric acoustic guitar, and a Roland 404SX sampler.

I've been surprised how much people involved in drumline, drum and bugle corps, marching band, etc. performances seem very concerned with 'soundstage' and 'imaging' but don't seem to understand how difficult that is to achieve for large audience areas.  Jason's post helps clairfy that they may only be concerned with what certain listeners hear and don't really care what everyone else hears.  That is a completely different situation than trying to serve all the listeners.

As I mentioned above in this post, the "soundstage" is becoming a very important part of an ensembles performance, especially in the drum and bugle corps/marching band performances. For example, one system I saw last summer a drum and bugle corps ensemble using had 1 15" speaker on the 25 yard lines, the "main" stage stack consisting of dual 15" speakers over dual 18" subs on about the 35 yard lines, and dual 15" speakers setup vertically on about the 45 yard lines. All were on varying angles to ensure the sound was getting up to about the 400 level of Lucas Oil Stadium which is where the judges they're trying to appeal to are sitting. This setup set their "soundstage" from 25 yard line to 25 yard line and allowed them to use some awesome panning effects that in previous years would've been difficult to do. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, the people coming to support the ensembles understand that the farther you sit away from the center of the competition area (be it a football field or basketball court) the less clear the sound will be. But it comes with the territory of the activity.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 21, 2014, 01:05:06 PM
One thousand words minus five:

Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 21, 2014, 01:16:20 PM
Couldn't resist posting a pic.

What mystifies me is that why the addition of tech to what has for decades been an acoustic performance form is power limited to a single outlet.  Or perhaps the statement about available power is just vague or inadequate.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 21, 2014, 01:47:27 PM
Couldn't resist posting a pic.

What mystifies me is that why the addition of tech to what has for decades been an acoustic performance form is power limited to a single outlet.  Or perhaps the statement about available power is just vague or inadequate.

So the no-longer-a-drumline needs amplification for instruments that are antithetical.

I don't get it, whatever 'it' is.  Never mind....
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 21, 2014, 02:03:09 PM

one system I saw last summer a drum and bugle corps ensemble using had 1 15" speaker on the 25 yard lines, the "main" stage stack consisting of dual 15" speakers over dual 18" subs on about the 35 yard lines, and dual 15" speakers setup vertically on about the 45 yard lines.

Well, I suppose you could run all that on a single circuit, but it would seem to me to be just enough to provide some kind of "effect" derived mainly from a bit of "apparent position shift" and of course the multiple time-arrivals.

If I were to judge such competitions, I'd give weight to the arrangement of the performance pieces according to how well and how creatively they used the natural stadium acoustics and echo/slap-back.  The better these natural phenomena are incorporated into the arrangement and performance, the higher I'd score them.

I recall  going  with my high school band director to a marching band seminar at Drake University in Des Moines back arond 1958.  One of the topics discussed was the creative use of slap-back to create intricate polyrhythms for the listeners. 

This realm of artistic endeavor required no AC circuits whatsoever.

OK.  Done with the rant...

To the OP:  whatever floats the boat.  There are a lot sillier things I could get worked up about...
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 21, 2014, 02:16:22 PM
Couldn't resist posting a pic.

What mystifies me is that why the addition of tech to what has for decades been an acoustic performance form is power limited to a single outlet.  Or perhaps the statement about available power is just vague or inadequate.

I am just as mystified about the power supply as you are. I honestly think it's got something to do with the host venues. Most of the competition hosts (at least for the indoor circuits) are held in high schools where the high voltage circuits to tie into are unavailable. There are several competitions in larger arenas, but they try to keep everything even across the board. So since the high schools can't provide high voltage circuits, neither can the arenas. True, the high schools could get industrial generators to provide the extra voltage, but that adds expense and for the host schools it would break the bank to rent that kind of power for the day. Since these events typically cost an audience member between $5 and $7 dollars there's not a huge profit margin and since the ensembles have been working with a single 120V power source for several years now, I don't see the governing organizations changing that anytime soon...unfortunately.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 21, 2014, 02:35:53 PM
I am just as mystified about the power supply as you are. I honestly think it's got something to do with the host venues. Most of the competition hosts (at least for the indoor circuits) are held in high schools where the high voltage circuits to tie into are unavailable. There are several competitions in larger arenas, but they try to keep everything even across the board. So since the high schools can't provide high voltage circuits, neither can the arenas. True, the high schools could get industrial generators to provide the extra voltage, but that adds expense and for the host schools it would break the bank to rent that kind of power for the day. Since these events typically cost an audience member between $5 and $7 dollars there's not a huge profit margin and since the ensembles have been working with a single 120V power source for several years now, I don't see the governing organizations changing that anytime soon...unfortunately.

Saying "a single 120V source" tells us very little. It's the available amperes that make the difference.  If the voltage is 120, there could be 15-20 amps available.  There could be more.  If there's a quad-outlet, there could well be four 20 amp circuits to use.

You need to provide better info.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 21, 2014, 03:16:34 PM
Saying "a single 120V source" tells us very little. It's the available amperes that make the difference.  If the voltage is 120, there could be 15-20 amps available.  There could be more.  If there's a quad-outlet, there could well be four 20 amp circuits to use.

You need to provide better info.

My apologies on the poor info. Given that we compete at different venues the only info I know about the provided electricity is what's stated in the contest director info. They are very vague with their descriptions and typically say something along the lines of "power will be provided on the front side of the performance area via 1 heavy duty extension cord." Based on what I know from the contest info, I am not able to provide amps available, number of outlets the extension cord is plugged into, etc.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: drew gandy on February 21, 2014, 03:21:07 PM
What mystifies me is that why the addition of tech to what has for decades been an acoustic performance form is power limited to a single outlet. 

Have you ever been to Nascar?  [I haven't but I think my following parallel works]

In my head, this sounds like turning the competition into a team sport using "more" team members than previously required.  Auto racing is as much about the vehicle and crew (and technical requirements) as it is about the "art" the driver may perform on the track.  In that way, I rather find this drum thing appealing.  I'm curious how the grading systems work and if the judges have a "sophisticated" view or if the most "dazzle" just automatically wins.

What's next?  Strobe lighting and fog machines?   
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: drew gandy on February 21, 2014, 03:27:41 PM
...Based on what I know from the contest info, I am not able to provide amps available, number of outlets the extension cord is plugged into, etc.

Based on the fact that this is in a gym and with limited power.... I don't understand [well, I really do understand but] all these 15s & 18s being used.  You need big horns.  High efficiency and pattern control.  Make those 15 amps (at 120v) sing! 

Get Art Welter to send you some maltese horns and some giant bass bins along with a custom made cart with scrim (nice idea, put sponsor ads on it).  Ask some folks on here for more tips about making a system quick to setup.  (hint, amp rack with NL connectors, not powered speakers) And please explain how you handle that many inputs in 2 minutes! 
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Brad Weber on February 21, 2014, 04:27:34 PM
As I mentioned above in this post, the "soundstage" is becoming a very important part of an ensembles performance, especially in the drum and bugle corps/marching band performances. For example, one system I saw last summer a drum and bugle corps ensemble using had 1 15" speaker on the 25 yard lines, the "main" stage stack consisting of dual 15" speakers over dual 18" subs on about the 35 yard lines, and dual 15" speakers setup vertically on about the 45 yard lines. All were on varying angles to ensure the sound was getting up to about the 400 level of Lucas Oil Stadium which is where the judges they're trying to appeal to are sitting. This setup set their "soundstage" from 25 yard line to 25 yard line and allowed them to use some awesome panning effects that in previous years would've been difficult to do. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, the people coming to support the ensembles understand that the farther you sit away from the center of the competition area (be it a football field or basketball court) the less clear the sound will be. But it comes with the territory of the activity.
Do you mix from where the Judges are located?  If not then how do you assess what the Judges hear in terms of the reinforced/acoustic balance and soundstage?
 
For the system I need a minimum of 2 subs, but ideally 4 total, preferably 18" - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX2181, the EV TX1181, and the JBL PRX418S. I'm also looking at 4 mains with 15" woofers - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX1152 and the JBL PRX415M. Reasoning for 4 mains is simply for the high end, but if something like the EV TX2152 or the JBL PRX425 would work for great high end sound I would not be opposed to them. Finally, I need to power it all. Again, because of application, daisy chaining would be the most practical way to connect all of the speakers in a L/R setup.
I'm not clear on why you would need 4 mains if all you really want is 'stereo' coverage for where the the Judges are located as any additional sources, be it for additional coverage or output, would seem to work against what you are trying to achieve and it appears that one sub and one main located together wherever you want left and right to originate from would do what you want.  And if you're using subs then you probably don't need mains with 15" woofers, 12" woofers will likely do fine and allow for smaller, lighter boxes.  If you are having to work on a budget, and the budget is likely a critical factor, as well as limited power then fewer, higher quality, greater sensitivity speakers may be your best bet.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 21, 2014, 04:45:26 PM
Do you mix from where the Judges are located?  If not then how do you assess what the Judges hear in terms of the reinforced/acoustic balance and soundstage?

Yes, I mix from where the judges are located. With the improving technology they lifted the rule banning that and now they give us a seat near the farthest judges from the competition area to mix.

I'm not clear on why you would need 4 mains if all you really want is 'stereo' coverage for where the the Judges are located as any additional sources, be it for additional coverage or output, would seem to work against what you are trying to achieve and it appears that one sub and one main located together wherever you want left and right to originate from would do what you want.  And if you're using subs then you probably don't need mains with 15" woofers, 12" woofers will likely do fine and allow for smaller, lighter boxes.  If you are having to work on a budget, and the budget is likely a critical factor, as well as limited power then fewer, higher quality, greater sensitivity speakers may be your best bet.

We wouldn't necessarily need 4 mains, it's just a setup that I've seen that seems to work well. I'm not sure what the ensemble's thinking behind it is. I was just going with the school of though, the more mains the higher the overall SPL. I'm probably way off with that idea and as you stated it'd probably be best achieved by going with fewer, higher quality, greater sensitivity mains.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jason Porter on February 21, 2014, 05:03:41 PM
And please explain how you handle that many inputs in 2 minutes!

I'll explain how I handle all of those inputs, no problem.

We have the X32 console and, because of budget, bought the Gator road case for it that we then built a cart for. Then we modified the case so that we can leave almost everything connected to the inputs and outputs on the console.
For the 14 mics, I've attached mic cables to the frames of all the instruments starting at center and working my way to the ends. At center are 2 female breakouts (part of a modular snake system made by Planet Waves)(one that 6 mics plug into and one 8 mics plug into) that I've mounted to the instrument frame and I leave all of the cables I can plugged into it to make the daisy chain process easier. Each breakout condenses the 8 inputs to a serial connector. Each instrument dasiy chains to the instrument next to it so as you go from center out there are less cables to plug in (furthest player has one cable to plug in while player just off center has 4 to 6 cables to plug in). From the breakout there's a core cable that I leave connected to the male breakouts that are plugged into the corresponding input channels.
The guitar, bass, and synthesizer players connect their cables to their corresponding inputs while we wait to perform so when we get in the competition area to setup it's as simple as grabbing their cable and connecting it to their instrument.

It sounds really confusing but by using 2 Planet Waves modular snake systems that are attached and over 3/4 the way connected, to hook up 14 mics is as simple as plugging in 2 cables.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on February 21, 2014, 05:15:46 PM
I definitely understand that this is not the general goal of a system design. But the people who come to the show to support the ensembles understand that they're not going to a concert where everything will be crystal clear no matter where you're sitting. It just comes with the territory of the activity. It's not something that the ensembles do intentionally, but a side effect of the application in which we have to use these systems.

It's a sad that it's come to this: the elites (judges) get the quality while the serfs (audience) get the shaft. And the serfs are OK with that. Kind of kills whatever must've been the original purpose of the competitions: to expose a lot of people to a lot of talent. Now all they get is a crud experience (except for the elites). Welcome to politics.

A sound system tuned for only one portion of the venue while completely ignoring the rest of the venue will result in the sound being worse in the rest of the venue than if there were no sound system at all.

Rant over.


EDIT: The original version of this post contained a term with racial undertones. I only learned of those undertones after I posted. If you saw that and were offended, I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Art Welter on February 21, 2014, 06:30:48 PM
I was just going with the school of though, the more mains the higher the overall SPL. I'm probably way off with that idea and as you stated it'd probably be best achieved by going with fewer, higher quality, greater sensitivity mains.
High SPL and coherency are more easily achieved from a single location.

Even though a single location can cover the entire audience and judging area, it can be run stereo (or 3 or 4 channel), and very wide panning effects can be utilized if desired.

With a central cluster behind the performers, the precedence (Haas) effect will still make the individual locations of sound (each live acoustic performer) easily located, while the usual setup in front of the performers smears location detection ability, ruining the natural sound stage.

Art
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Tom Roche on February 21, 2014, 06:42:55 PM
High SPL and coherency are more easily achieved from a single location.

Even though a single location can cover the entire audience and judging area, it can be run stereo (or 3 or 4 channel), and very wide panning effects can be utilized if desired.

With a central cluster behind the performers, the precedence (Haas) effect will still make the individual locations of sound (each live acoustic performer) easily located, while the usual setup in front of the performers smears location detection ability, ruining the natural sound stage.

Art
Art discusses "sound stage" in the same terms as I understand it.  To the OP, is this what you mean when discussing "soundstage"?
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Brad Weber on February 21, 2014, 09:54:58 PM
With a central cluster behind the performers, the precedence (Haas) effect will still make the individual locations of sound (each live acoustic performer) easily located, while the usual setup in front of the performers smears location detection ability, ruining the natural sound stage.
That's one reason why I find some of the setups discussed interesting, they seem more intended to allow creating an artificial 'soundstage' for the reinforced sound than they are trying to support the natural acoustic soundstage.
 
We wouldn't necessarily need 4 mains, it's just a setup that I've seen that seems to work well. I'm not sure what the ensemble's thinking behind it is. I was just going with the school of though, the more mains the higher the overall SPL. I'm probably way off with that idea and as you stated it'd probably be best achieved by going with fewer, higher quality, greater sensitivity mains.
Using two speakers to reproduce the same content at the same level and to the same listeners will result in a net 3dB increase in output compared to one speaker, which represents a just readily noticeable difference in perceived volume.  However, depending on the two speakers' locations relative to each listener that 3dB net increase may not apply equally to all frequencies and at any location in the listener area the two signals arriving at different times due to the relative distances from the speakers may result in some frequencies being boosted by up to 6dB while other frequencies may be completely cancelled.  That's one reason why getting more level by increasing the output from a single source is generally preferred to using multiple sources.
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Tim Perry on February 22, 2014, 03:57:07 AM
Jason, I believe I comprehend the goals of you project. I am thinking of it as performance art.

My suggestion is powered QSC speakers.  4 KW181  and 4 KW153. 

This will give you a high quality high reliability , efficient system, capable of rock levels at indoor venues.

Of course if you push it too hard it will blow the single 20A breaker.... but the same will be pretty much true for whatever you get provided it can produce enough sound to keep up with the drummers.

The key here is  the 4 subs will provide a stable bass for the tops.  The 4 tops are arrayable (75 degrees each).

Current prices are about $1400 per speaker.

 
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Brian Jones on February 22, 2014, 10:11:39 PM
Strongly consider horn loaded designs that use the physical horn as an amplifier thus requiring far less electrical power to achieve the same spl. High sensitivity drivers in a horn enclosure gives you even more advantage.

I disagree with using powered speakers based on your setup flow and time constraints.

Sent from my SPH-M930 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Cailen Waddell on February 22, 2014, 10:26:02 PM

I disagree with using powered speakers based on your setup flow and time constraints.

Sent from my SPH-M930 using Tapatalk 2

I agree why make one connection when 2 will do.  If you have a rolling rack with mixer and amps and have a sub and top on a Cart (x2). You run two nl4, one to each cart. Build your carts so a cable bin is included, you just grab an end and run to your amp/mixer rack.  Keep your power cable in bottom of amp rack. 

As for the best system design... I'm staying out of that one..  Many good points above, and some that might be thinking about it too hard.

Regardless power will be the limiting factor.  I do think one sub location will provide more predictable bass with less of a risk of the judges being in a null - so perhaps 3 carts? L/r/sub?
Title: Re: Sound System Design Help
Post by: Jim Rutherford on February 22, 2014, 11:23:35 PM
I've  watched a lot of drum line and marching band competitions, I have also ran sound for a performing drum line.  From my perspective the goal of the competitors is to win.  The best sound systems that I have seen/heard were based on a single ground base line array.  On a single pull cart was sub with the line array mounted on top which projects upward.  This configuration is easy to pull into position, plug in, and has the needed projection to the judging seating area.