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Title: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: john sanders on July 03, 2013, 09:34:07 AM
As the title suggests I would like some feedback as to whether you set your levels on the mains first or levels on monitors first. Typically, I like to have the monitors set after I've got a base level on the mains.
Title: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Samuel Rees on July 03, 2013, 09:56:32 AM
As the title suggests I would like some feedback as to whether you set your levels on the mains first or levels on monitors first. Typically, I like to have the monitors set after I've got a base level on the mains.

Can I assume this is referring to a monitors from FOH setup in a music club? In smaller clubs (which means I'm often in a hurry) I usually quickly ballpark the channel in the mains, because the artists hear the mains a good bit and might ask for more monitor volume if they didn't hear them. Sometimes artists will ask for the main PA to be turned off during all of part of soundcheck, though.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on July 03, 2013, 10:20:59 AM
Assuming I have 20-30 minutes for sound check (common except for festivals):

I tend to do monitors first with mains off, then mains, then back to monitors for fine tuning, EQ, then back to mains, then maybe a final pass of mons if anyone needs something different...  There are valid arguments for either approach, I've just settled on that workflow.  I tend to go back and forth a lot, I ask the band constantly how it sounds for them, and what can I do to make it better.

Fist pass is usually 'what goes in each monitor', and general levels.  2nd pass is EQ. 

Then I ask the band to play a few songs show varying dynamics and set Mains, EQ, comps,.... 

Final pass I have the band play their opening song (first 20 seconds or so), and maybe repeat, for final adjustments in mons and mains... The save the scene.  This helps make everything cooking for the first song when the act walks on stage.

My job is a whole lot easier (and faster) with iPad remote control.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Scott Harris on July 03, 2013, 11:01:29 AM
When I get the opportunity to do a full sound check.... I run the mains at full volume with the monitors at what I think is a reasonable level as the first pass.  I want them to hear and get the bass impact of the mains before they ask to turn up the monitors.  When I have run monitors first the levels are almost always higher.  I also find that the bass & guitar players are much more comfortable with lower amp levels when the mains & subs are on.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Kevin McDonough on July 03, 2013, 12:20:38 PM
hey


I generally go for mains first. Especially with sub/bass things on small stages, they get a lot of wash back onto the stage and so don't always need this in the wedges or ears.

So I'll get a very rough mix first on the mains, then ask each person what they want and get rough monitor mixes, then play a couple more songs while I work on tightening the FOH mix and make and tweaks they ask for in their monitors.

k
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on July 03, 2013, 12:55:19 PM
One nice thing with iPad control is you can stand next to the musos and make adjustments while they are playing in just a few seconds.  Takes about 2 minutes to rough in a monitor mix for 4 or 5 wedges.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on July 03, 2013, 01:08:13 PM
Feeling vastly outnumbered doing mons first, I'll share my main reason. 

I like to be on stage when the band arrives, shake hands, help them plug in, and interact and learn their names.  Doing a rough monitor mix first lets them know that I care deeply about their experience and develop a relationship.  This seems to work better than standing 100' feet away working on the main mix first.

It's an iterative process either way.  The first pass of monitors is just a few minutes.

That's my story today, maybe it will change...
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Jason Lucas on July 03, 2013, 01:31:26 PM
Feeling vastly outnumbered doing mons first, I'll share my main reason. 

I like to be on stage when the band arrives, shake hands, help them plug in, and interact and learn their names.  Doing a rough monitor mix first lets them know that I care deeply about their experience and develop a relationship.  This seems to work better than standing 100' feet away working on the main mix first.

It's an iterative process either way.  The first pass of monitors is just a few minutes.

That's my story today, maybe it will change...

I envy your ability to mix remotely.  :( I'd love to be able to adjust monitors from the stage.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Brook Hovland on July 03, 2013, 01:34:07 PM
I almost always do monitors first. Hope that makes you feel a bit less out numbered.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Brandon Wright on July 03, 2013, 02:13:45 PM
I always check monitors with the mains on. I take a pretty minimalistic  approach to wedges and try to only give them what they need. They aren't going to be playing the show with the mains off, so why check with them off?
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on July 03, 2013, 02:28:36 PM
I always check monitors with the mains on. I take a pretty minimalistic  approach to wedges and try to only give them what they need. They aren't going to be playing the show with the mains off, so why check with them off?

I do this as well... I would say that I'll give the mains about 65-75% volume. 
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Jared Koopman on July 03, 2013, 02:48:52 PM
At the church I mix at we have mains on while setting monitors...as much of what they hear is the room sound. This keeps our monitor levels in check.

But in other setups it just depends on the situation. I prefer to have mains on while doing monitors but will do whatever needs to be done. :)
Title: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Merlijn van Veen on July 03, 2013, 03:25:06 PM
Mains first. IMHO monitors should complement the rear of the PA
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Nicolas Poisson on July 04, 2013, 03:37:26 AM
They aren't going to be playing the show with the mains off, so why check with them off?

They aren't going to be playing the show with the monitors off, so why check with them off?
 
The question is not "do we need a FoH?", but "considering we need both FoH and monitors, with which one to start?"

My understanding is that the question of monitor vs. FoH first in relevant only in small clubs. In huge places, you have a dedicated console an sound engineer for foldback.
In small clubs, the band will hear both the FoH and the monitors. But the audience will hear both the FoH and the monitors too! If you start with the FoH and then setup the monitors, they will add to the FoH and you will have to correct the FoH afterwards.
Based on this, there are two strategies:
- either you set up the FoH first, and then bring a small amount of what is missing in the monitors. Usually the artist will not miss level (the FoH is enough), but clarity (the rear of the FoH has no highs). So you will EQ the monitors taking this into account. And you go back to correct the FoH at the end if required.
- or you setup monitors first, and then raise the mains level, but EQing the FoH taking monitors wash into acount.

As said above, either way you will need to go back and forth between FoH and foldback.

Both strategies are acceptable. I prefer to do mains first, but sometimes the artist asks for monitors early in the check, so I give him a basic rough mix (his own instrument/voice). In such cases, I mix FoH and monitors "artist per artist". Then I make a global FoH mix and add other instruments in the monitors.

Sometimes the artist claims to have enough level with nothing in the monitors. If I go on stage, I hear a very dull sound. Usualy, If I raise the monitors, the sound is much clearer for the artist and he agrees that he feels more comfortable. This is a rare case were I suggest to put more than the artist asked.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Mike Reigh on July 04, 2013, 09:31:16 AM
When mixing both from FOH, I do mains first- this way I can get my input gains set with the faders as close to unity as I can.  Then monitors and there us usually enough head amp gain on the input to get the monitor level where it needs to be.
Title: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: eric lenasbunt on July 04, 2013, 10:13:47 AM
Assuming I have 20-30 minutes for sound check (common except for festivals):

I tend to do monitors first with mains off, then mains, then back to monitors for fine tuning, EQ, then back to mains, then maybe a final pass of mons if anyone needs something different...  There are valid arguments for either approach, I've just settled on that workflow.  I tend to go back and forth a lot, I ask the band constantly how it sounds for them, and what can I do to make it better.

Fist pass is usually 'what goes in each monitor', and general levels.  2nd pass is EQ. 

Then I ask the band to play a few songs show varying dynamics and set Mains, EQ, comps,.... 

Final pass I have the band play their opening song (first 20 seconds or so), and maybe repeat, for final adjustments in mons and mains... The save the scene.  This helps make everything cooking for the first song when the act walks on stage.

My job is a whole lot easier (and faster) with iPad remote control.

+1
This is almost my exact routine when there is time. Musicians never ask me to turn monitors down, so I like to get max headroom first and then they get the added volume of the house.
 Seriously, they NEVER ask for less.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Mike Reigh on July 04, 2013, 10:34:49 AM
Musicians never ask me to turn monitors down, so I like to get max headroom first and then they get the added volume of the house.
 Seriously, they NEVER ask for less.

It depends on what monitor I'm using, but I have been asked to back off the mix during sound check.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Adam Cooke on July 05, 2013, 03:54:56 PM
As the title suggests I would like some feedback as to whether you set your levels on the mains first or levels on monitors first. Typically, I like to have the monitors set after I've got a base level on the mains.


When I'm running mons from FOH in smaller venues, I get a rough level and EQ in the mains first and then put that channel into the monitors as needed. I often ask the band what they expect they'll want in their monitors while I'm setting up the mics on stage, so I have a faster starting point.


When I'm working with a separate monitor console, we normally check FOH and monitors at the same time, staying on each channel until both engineers and the band are satisfied.


I don't like spending a lot of time on monitor mixes with FOH off, since the FOH sound will generally affect what the performers are hearing on stage quite a bit.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Patrick Tracy on July 05, 2013, 04:56:39 PM
Both at the same time, more or less. Interleaved.

After basic line checks, get an initial gain setting on the lead vocal, bring up his monitor send to 0, set the master to his needed level, put the channel fader at 0 and bring up the mains to get him over stage volume. Set the gain on another vocal with the send at 0, bring up that monitor master to his needed level, fade up as needed. Repeat gain, aux send, aux master, channel fader for any other monitor mixes, then mix in "other stuff" (inputs besides the person who the mix is for, like SR gtr for SL wedge) as needed in each mix.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 05, 2013, 05:22:06 PM
My deal has always been vocal FOH, stage mix, monitors in that order. Simply put, if you set up in that order you can guarantee nothing else will come above the vocals.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: duane massey on July 05, 2013, 06:31:49 PM
Depends upon the experience level of the band. Some less-experienced bands get freaked out if they don't hear themselves right away, some are perfectly content to let you do your job as you see fit. As a performer I trust the sound guy, until he proves to be untrustworthy....
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Lev Raber on July 06, 2013, 11:14:34 AM
First, you have to trust the system you're using, just make sure all components are working as they should.
Now, here is my routine:
1. General MON and FOH line check with playback music
2. General MON and then FOH level and EQ check with a good wireless mic
3. Fine EQing on all MON mixes, in my experience if the wedges are the same everywhere I just copy EQ settings from the Mix1 to all others, I make final adjustments later on each mon mix to each musician taste. 
4. Fine EQing on FOH
5. I ask musicians to play and sing with only MONs on to get a good balance on stage, I dismiss in general all complains about lack of LF before FOH is on
6. FOH on, final balace of the band in FOH and MONs
7. FXs on, final balance of FXs between MON and FOH

Againg, this is what I do when mixing MON from FOH. In my line of work it's sometimes FOH from MON, because I often forced to mix from the side of the stage. Sometimes I even don't have a luxury of a good sound check, because of the time restrains or other limitations.
That's why, as I said before, it's very important you have a trust in your equipment, your headphones and every time try to follow your routine, even if it differs from mine. When musicians see how confident you are, no matter if they're good or bad, you will still achieve better results in shorter time frame, which in my business is a must.
 
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Evan Hunter on July 06, 2013, 01:42:10 PM
My deal has always been vocal FOH, stage mix, monitors in that order. Simply put, if you set up in that order you can guarantee nothing else will come above the vocals.

I can definitely agree with this. You can also communicate with the artists easier if their vocals are up and running faster, even if there is also monitor engineer.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: James A. Griffin on July 06, 2013, 06:30:27 PM
I would like some feedback

NOT a good way to begin a discussion in our world    8),.. but I digress

Mains first because some of that will be heard from the stage, thus affecting what is required in monitors.
Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Dave Neale on July 08, 2013, 02:24:52 AM
if I'm driving from FOH, I'll dial up a stupid quick mix. Vocals all up and roughed for the house, with each vocal up in its corresponding wedge onstage, a bit of the other vocals blended around each box.Kick drum in the drum box and the house.

Sometimes they don't even ask for anything else. 


Title: Re: Mains or Monitors first?
Post by: Ben Brunskill on July 08, 2013, 05:23:24 AM
I tend to set gain with one hand and push the fader up to close to zero with the other hand to get some FOH sound happening

If it’s a vocal mic or DI only instrument with no stage amp, then I set the monitor to what I feel is a decent level. I tweak the EQ if it’s ringing or sounding bad, then get the singer/musician to stop and I ask ‘Is there enough in your wedge? Who else needs some of that?’ Often it’s OK just like that.

I find it’s been working well. If I soundcheck with the FOH off, people always say, ‘That’s enough monitor’ until halfway through the first song, when they are screaming for more because they can’t hear themselves. I have been soundchecking pretty loud recently, I figure when it’s loud, that’s when the feedback starts and nasty treble will rip your head off. Soundchecks with fairly loud FOH help me find and fix those things.