ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Jerome Freese on June 16, 2014, 12:33:46 AM
-
Hi I was wondering if there was anyone here with knowledge of a solution to a problem we have been having.
Guitar player when using single coil pickups (even split coil humbuckers) and higher gain settings will squeal with P.A on. Funny thing is, is that with no P.A on the guitarist can play with more gain and volume and the guitar will not squeal even right next to the speaker. Only when the P.A is on does this happen. There is no guitar in the monitors.
The sound man was blaming the guitarist for too much gain as that's when the problem occurred, but then when the P.A was down the guitarist showed him how the guitar wouldn't squeal on it's own no matter what. Guitar player blames sound system since problem started when we went to a digital board.
-
You need to change your display name to your real name or the admin will lock up this thread.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Hi I was wondering if there was anyone here with knowledge of a solution to a problem we have been having.
Guitar player when using single coil pickups (even split coil humbuckers) and higher gain settings will squeal with P.A on. Funny thing is, is that with no P.A on the guitarist can play with more gain and volume and the guitar will not squeal even right next to the speaker. Only when the P.A is on does this happen. There is no guitar in the monitors.
The sound man was blaming the guitarist for too much gain as that's when the problem occurred, but then when the P.A was down the guitarist showed him how the guitar wouldn't squeal on it's own no matter what. Guitar player blames sound system since problem started when we went to a digital board.
You're going to need to give more info if you want a real answer. Is the amp squealing or the PA? Mains or monitors? Can he play at same volume with humbuckers and get no squeal? Is the squeal feedback or something else? If it's the PA squealing, does the channel have compression on it?
-
Is he using a PigNose amp?????
-
Is the amp squealing or the PA? Mains or monitors? Can he play at same volume with humbuckers and get no squeal? Is the squeal feedback or something else? If it's the PA squealing, does the channel have compression on it?
Only with the P.A on does the squealing occur.Guitar & amp itself does not squeal at all. Comes out of the P.A. Not "controllable" feedback but fast squeal. No guitar through monitors. Humbuckers do not do this at all. We tried removing the channel compression and it seemed to help but we need to try again. that's the first thing I thought also.
-
Is he using a PigNose amp?????
No he is using a ENGL powerball 2 and a Dumble overdrive special.
-
Only with the P.A on does the squealing occur.Guitar & amp itself does not squeal at all. Comes out of the P.A. Not "controllable" feedback but fast squeal. No guitar through monitors. Humbuckers do not do this at all. We tried removing the channel compression and it seemed to help but we need to try again. that's the first thing I thought also.
Are you micing the amp or taking a direct line somewhere? I have no clue what it might be, just trying to eliminate things for someone who might come along who does.
-
Hi I was wondering if there was anyone here with knowledge of a solution to a problem we have been having.
Guitar player when using single coil pickups (even split coil humbuckers) and higher gain settings will squeal with P.A on. Funny thing is, is that with no P.A on the guitarist can play with more gain and volume and the guitar will not squeal even right next to the speaker. Only when the P.A is on does this happen. There is no guitar in the monitors.
The sound man was blaming the guitarist for too much gain as that's when the problem occurred, but then when the P.A was down the guitarist showed him how the guitar wouldn't squeal on it's own no matter what. Guitar player blames sound system since problem started when we went to a digital board.
It sounds like there is an electronic feedback loop in the console. Somewhere the guitar signal is looped. Are there any effects that are only on the guitar?
Mac
-
It sounds like there is an electronic feedback loop in the console. Somewhere the guitar signal is looped. Are there any effects that are only on the guitar?
Mac
To add a bit:
Move the guitar to another channel and put something else into the former guitar channel. If the channel still squeals with another input device, it's almost certainly a routing issue creating some kind of closed loop.
-
Only with the P.A on does the squealing occur.Guitar & amp itself does not squeal at all. Comes out of the P.A. Not "controllable" feedback but fast squeal. No guitar through monitors. Humbuckers do not do this at all. We tried removing the channel compression and it seemed to help but we need to try again. that's the first thing I thought also.
There wouldn't happen to be a magnetic style hearing assistance loop system in the room? as single coil guitar pickups are effectively the same device as the pickup in the hearing aids and then can feedback quite spectacularly even just into their own amp, if the loop amp is turned off with the rest of the PA then that would stop the squealing. G
-
Just a thought....guitar bleeding into open vocal or other mics that are fed back to monitors?Then the single coils with so much gain on the amp it could be just enough to cause feedback if there not great potted pickups.
-
A couple of my active basses will squeal if I get to close to loud mains on a small stage. That's just putting something designed to pick up magnetic fields getting too close to a large magnetic field, I think.
-
Turn off the monitors and have the guitar player move from side to side on the stage. IS there any squeal? Next turn off the FOH and turn on the monitors. Any squeal?
Then go to the guitar rig and have the player set his pedals to unity gain, or remove them for the test. Any squeal? Run those tests and check back please.
-
Is he using a PigNose amp?????
i'm too late for the pig joke !
-
That has happened to me quite a few times.
If the guitarist is near FOH horn have him move away or pan the guitar all the way across stage and see if it goes away.
My guess is that it will.
-
A couple of my active basses will squeal if I get to close to loud mains on a small stage. That's just putting something designed to pick up magnetic fields getting too close to a large magnetic field, I think.
ok
just re-read the thread and I see what I mentioned had already been mentioned
-
Thanks I'm going to look into all of these Ideas.
What I would like to know is in your opinion, If the guitar NEVER does this on it's own at any volume pickup,or gain, and once you add P.A it does it,isn't it 100% for sure a P.A. Issue? I mean the only thing that changed is P.A added so
isn't that assumption logical?
-
Thanks I'm going to look into all of these Ideas.
What I would like to know is in your opinion, If the guitar NEVER does this on it's own at any volume pickup,or gain, and once you add P.A it does it,isn't it 100% for sure a P.A. Issue? I mean the only thing that changed is P.A added so
isn't that assumption logical?
No. It's a logical fallacy - "post hoc, ergo proptor hoc." Roughly translated to mean "After this, therefore because of this."
If this doesn't happen with humbuckers, then the single coil pickup is the issue, right? ;)
Does this happen in every venue, with every PA system, or just sometimes or only with the band's PA?
-
I also think this sounds very much like a nagnetic loop hearing aid thing (don't the name of this thing in English)
-
No. It's a logical fallacy - "post hoc, ergo proptor hoc." Roughly translated to mean "After this, therefore because of this."
If this doesn't happen with humbuckers, then the single coil pickup is the issue, right? ;)
Does this happen in every venue, with every PA system, or just sometimes or only with the band's PA?
It happens any venue even outdoors. It started happening when we went from our big Allen heath board to the new Behringer digital.
-
No he is using a ENGL powerball 2 and a Dumble overdrive special.
The problem is that Dumble. You need to get it as far away as possible. You can send it here it me In Atlanta. PM me for an address
-
It happens any venue even outdoors. It started happening when we went from our big Allen heath board to the new Behringer digital.
You likely have set up a feedback loop in the routing on the board.
It was mentioned already..... Put the guitar in another strip, DO NOT COPY from the old to the new ! Start this one fresh. The "problem" will go away
-
The problem is that Dumble. You need to get it as far away as possible. You can send it here it me In Atlanta. PM me for an address
Wrong. It will need to be looked at by me in Boston, forever.
-
You likely have set up a feedback loop in the routing on the board.
It was mentioned already..... Put the guitar in another strip, DO NOT COPY from the old to the new ! Start this one fresh. The "problem" will go away
I have to agree knowing now that there was no problem with the older board. Use a clean channel, no effects, no monitor send. If FOH by itself doesn't result in the same issue then add the monitor send and see what happens. Make very sure there are no effects added while doing this test.
-
Humbuckers do not do this at all. We tried removing the channel compression and it seemed to help but we need to try again.
How much compression? When he isn't playing, all that gain gets added back to the signal. That, and the single coil pickups might make the difference. If it's happening even when he plays, then disregard this message.
An internal loop in the console is a possibility, but what kind of pickups he's using wouldn't make a difference.
GTD
-
From all have read, I am thinking it may be a feedback loop or (and it really sounds like-compression issue. He said he took it out, but if a loop was somewhere routed through a compressor...
I am going to ask him to try the clean channel thing and start there. I've got my one eye on that board..
-
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it was a feedback/loop, wouldn't it always happen with humbuckers as well as single coils?
Also it was stated earlier, "When he isn't playing, all that gain gets added back to the signal. That, and the single coil pickups might make the difference. If it's happening even when he plays, then disregard this message."
That somewhat eliminates to a degree the compression being the reason. I don't see how the OP can come to the conclusion he has come to.
Does it still squeal when the board channel is turned down while it's happening? Has this been tried?
More info: Does it happen on clean sounds as well or just high gain distorted ones
-
Maybe I missed it but, how us the guitar connected to the PA.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it was a feedback/loop, wouldn't it always happen with humbuckers as well as single coils?
Also it was stated earlier, "When he isn't playing, all that gain gets added back to the signal. That, and the single coil pickups might make the difference. If it's happening even when he plays, then disregard this message."
That somewhat eliminates to a degree the compression being the reason. I don't see how the OP can come to the conclusion he has come to.
Does it still squeal when the board channel is turned down while it's happening? Has this been tried?
More info: Does it happen on clean sounds as well or just high gain distorted ones
P.A. On = guitar single coil /w./ higher gain =squeal
P.A. Off Same guitar and no matter how much gain = no squeal ever.
All single coils do this even when the guitarist splits coils out of humbucking mode.
It's like the thinner higher, sharper freqs of those "spur it on" more.
We have not tried just turning the guitar channel off with everything else on but that is a great idea to try to isolate if the problem is coming from other mics that have compression etc. The guitar cabinets are Mesa & SPLAWN Cab mic'd with an Audix 05 mics.
-
update ?
-
Update: I am pretty sure was compressors. After taking makeup gain off the problem went away. Thank you so much for your input. I find those digital compressors ok in the studio but live....
-
Update: I am pretty sure was compressors. After taking makeup gain off the problem went away. Thank you so much for your input. I find those digital compressors ok in the studio but live....
You'd have the same result from an analog compressor. Ones and zeros don't change it.
-
Update: I am pretty sure was compressors. After taking makeup gain off the problem went away. Thank you so much for your input. I find those digital compressors ok in the studio but live....
Just to clarify, this is not a problem with "digital compressors" in a "live" setting. This is simply a case of operator error in managing the gain. Gain is gain, no matter where it happens to be hanging out in the signal chain.
-
You'd have the same result from an analog compressor. Ones and zeros don't change it.
What has changed is that now everybody has a compressor available on every input, and some feel compelled to use them. I'm sure I'm showing my age, but when I was cutting my teeth in this business, you were lucky to have ONE comp as a system processor, or later on maybe a dbx 166 that you put on two inserts.
This reminds me of one local 4-piece folk/pop act. Once they hit the big time, their sound man could demand a PM3000-40 for gigs, even though he still was only using 12 channels. Of course he had a comp on every input, and had them in 10 or 12 dB of gain reduction when the band was playing. Once they stopped between tunes, he had to grab the master fader and bring it down because the whole system took off into feedback!
GTD
-
I'm sure I'm showing my age, but when I was cutting my teeth in this business, you were lucky to have ONE comp
We managed for two or three years in the late 1980s before we got one. Our first few gigs were done without graphic equalisers too.
Steve.
-
in the 70's we didnt know what a graphic eq was. a compressor was used to run air power tools. we did just fine. time to fire up the compressor so i can paint some graphics on the car.
-
Update: I am pretty sure was compressors. After taking makeup gain off the problem went away. Thank you so much for your input. I find those digital compressors ok in the studio but live....
So you found this by removing all effects from the channel as suggested?
-
So you found this by removing all effects from the channel as suggested?
No, I had such a strong suspicion of the compressor,I asked if that was in the chain. I had the sound man pull it way down.(makeup gain,compression level)I wouldn't have thought it needed one so it surprised me when I found out it was in. I was also happy because the way it acted I was convinced quickly the compressor was at fault.
I 100% agree with statements above saying now the average soundmen with their digital boards have so many toys they feel they need to use even though everything was fine before. And you have to KNOW how to use compressors or no improvements are made.
-
I 100% agree with statements above saying now the average soundmen with their digital boards have so many toys they feel they need to use even though everything was fine before. And you have to KNOW how to use compressors or no improvements are made.
More accurately, you have to know IF compressors are necessary, or negative improvements are made.
-
No, I had such a strong suspicion of the compressor,I asked if that was in the chain. I had the sound man pull it way down.(makeup gain,compression level)I wouldn't have thought it needed one so it surprised me when I found out it was in. I was also happy because the way it acted I was convinced quickly the compressor was at fault. {snip}
I think Bob's point was that reply #3 identified the compressor as the potential cause.
However we are near the bottom of the 2nd page, and have only now identified the cause correctly!
Troubleshooting combined with common sense can be done quite easily in person; on the web clearly takes longer...
Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2