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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Kishore Kodolikar on July 12, 2007, 07:18:44 AM

Title: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Kishore Kodolikar on July 12, 2007, 07:18:44 AM
Hi,

I am about to upgrade my PA and along with it also would like to change my interconnecting and mike cables too, i have 3 choices Zoalla, Mogami or Monster in order of preference.

Your advise is much appreciated

Regards,

Keyshore
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Tom Young on July 12, 2007, 08:10:50 AM
The claimed sonic benefits of "esoteric" cables are pretty much discounted (I'm being nice) by the majority of professsionals and even in the pristine acoustic environments of recording studios. Using such hardware in a live sound environment in an attempt to improve the sound is a complete waste of money.

Over the years I have seen some factory made esoteric mic cables that appear to be better constructed than off the shelf cheap mic cables and the shield construction plus gold-plated contacts that some of these feature are also something I might be interested in. But I would have to buy a handful of these and try them over 6 months or so to see what I think about how well they stand up OR I would have to read about someone here (who has some credibility) doing so befor I dropped the extra bucks to completely convert to these.

If you look at what any of the upper echelon sound providers here on LAB use I am quite sure you will not see these 'snake oil' cables in their inventories, other than a few (here and there) they have acquired/accumulated from errant musos. It is just as apparent that the other 'major league' sound companies who do not participate here do not go this route.

Save your money for more tangible improvements.
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 12, 2007, 08:48:42 AM
Tom Young wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 08:10

The claimed sonic benefits of "esoteric" cables are pretty much discounted (I'm being nice) by the majority of professsionals and even in the pristine acoustic environments of recording studios. Using such hardware in a live sound environment in an attempt to improve the sound is a complete waste of money.

Over the years I have seen some factory made esoteric mic cables that appear to be better constructed than off the shelf cheap mic cables and the shield construction plus gold-plated contacts that some of these feature are also something I might be interested in. But I would have to buy a handful of these and try them over 6 months or so to see what I think about how well they stand up OR I would have to read about someone here (who has some credibility) doing so befor I dropped the extra bucks to completely convert to these.

If you look at what any of the upper echelon sound providers here on LAB use I am quite sure you will not see these 'snake oil' cables in their inventories, other than a few (here and there) they have acquired/accumulated from errant musos. It is just as apparent that the other 'major league' sound companies who do not participate here do not go this route.

Save your money for more tangible improvements.


Tom,
Your reply is so well put there is nothing to add other than my own experience.

My experience with cables of this type has shown no benefit at all. To my ears there is no sonic differences and good quality cables, not boutique, have provided me with far better service in the end. In one case I purchased a very expensive cable for use with an $8000 Gibson Les Paul I own. Out of curiosity I put a scope on the signal just before the amplifier. There was no difference between the $100 dollar cable and the $18 Radio Shack cable I tested against. So there you go. Smile
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Jim Ferrari on July 12, 2007, 08:57:49 AM
Not to hijack the thread, but, since I'm sure Bob's not suggesting that everyone stock up on Radio Shack cables  Laughing what mic cable holds up best to constant spooling/despooling?
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Dave Barker on July 12, 2007, 09:00:30 AM
You will get the best customer service in the world and great cable for good price from these folks.

www.audiopile.net
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Riley Casey on July 12, 2007, 09:06:10 AM
Jim Ferrari wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 08:57

 what mic cable holds up best to constant spooling/despooling?


For stage use you either choose Belden 8412 or Belden 8412, so you have plenty of options there. Laughing  For patch cables with colored jackets the Belden 1192 ( I think thats the number, it's AES digital cable ) is nice.
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: John Halliburton on July 12, 2007, 09:23:54 AM
And since I've been performing the semi-annual cable inspection and retrofit on my system this week, let me add that Gepco cable is another sound(pun intended) manufacturer of quality cable.

www.gepco.com

There is a list of international distributers on the "Contact" page too:

http://www.gepco.com/contact/contact.htm

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Brad Channing on July 12, 2007, 09:24:26 AM
We used to make our own with Rapco ProMic cable bought in bulk (or was it super ProMic?) Now almost exclusively order our stuff pre-made from Whirlwind using their Accusonic2 cable, then we can get it custom engraved and with color coded connectors...nice touches.
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Dave Barto on July 12, 2007, 12:30:24 PM
I used to think that buying a Monster or other "high end" cable was a bunch of bull.  I still do for XLR cables but their is one situation that the Monster cable actually sounded better that a "standard" cable.  

One guitarist I work with often has a Heritage semi-hollow guitar with dual humbuckers for the electric sound and a bridge pickup for the acoustic sound.  It is terminated to a TRS panel connector on the guitar.  It them uses basically an insert cable to split the two different sounds.  We were using a standard pro audio brand insert cable and it sounded fine until he had a high profile studio session and he wanted a new cable.  So he went out and bought a monster cable studio grade insert cable.  And the differance in cables was amazing.  With the Monster cable the guitar came alive.  The acoustic has never sounded fuller and that beefy.  The electric side wasn't as noticable but it did sound better.  I haven't had the time to put a scope on the cable but I plan to do so in the next month.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.  My two favorite cables are Belden 8412 as already mentioned and Wirelux MusiLUX Microphone cable.  

All of my cables that I have made in the last year are the Wirelux cable and it is the best stuff I have ever seen.  It has absolutely no memory.  You can tie it in a knot and when you untie it you would have never know there was a knot there.  But it still has enough stiffness to it that it is very easy to coil.  It is also relatively inexpensive ($199 for 500').

And as always Neutrik connectors.  
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Bob Lee (QSC) on July 12, 2007, 01:03:53 PM
What do you currently use for mic and interconnect cables? You might not actually need an "upgrade."

There's nothing magical about wire. Compared to the "better sound through marketing" brands like Monster, you can get equal performance (and from what I've heard about some of their failure rates, perhaps much better reliability) at a small fraction of the price by using cables made with suitable wire (such as Belden 8412) and good-quality connectors, such as Switchcraft.
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Riley Casey on July 12, 2007, 01:04:44 PM
When building mic cables in house we always do two things to add some usability in the long haul.  First we use black female connectors and silver male and second we install some clear shrink at each end to cover a color band ( colored shrink or electrical tape ) and a P Touch label that has our initials and a number based on the length ( we keep a log in a three ring shop binder ) so that 25 ft cables will all have a number like ' 2056 ' and a 50 ft might have ' 5175 '.  It makes life easier when you have 60 plus inputs on stage, four or five sub snakes and a Maglite in your teeth.

I also use ONLY Switchcraft connectors on mic cables.  Neutrik is fine for patch cables and preferred for small diameter stuff like snake fans but only Switchcraft takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'.  In 30 plus years of doing this I've tried an awful lot of mic cable brands & models and Belden 8412 is the ONLY one that I continue to spec for stage use.    
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Chris Davis on July 12, 2007, 02:01:09 PM
A truly good snake oil cable  Razz

http://www.canare.com/files/Cat11_p35.pdf

http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?objectid=79844442-3048-7098- AFAD046DCA18AAFA

Not sure whether or not this is currently the best deal on this stuff but you can see it is nowhere near as expensive as the "esoteric" brands you mentioned earlier.
http://store.haveinc.com/Ebus30/Parts/Part.asp?Part=CANL4E6S BLA305M

Agreed with the others on Belden 8412 on it being 'the standard'.



Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Kishore Kodolikar on July 12, 2007, 02:34:34 PM
Hi All,

thanks a ton for all your replies this humble musician from India is grateful to you all for saving me a packet had i gone for the zoalla cables.

i am an acoustic guitar player, as belden 8412 seems to quite a popular cable can i use this along with Switchcraft connectors to rig my mixer to the amp (XLR to XLR)? furthermore i also need a mono 1/4 jack to jack to connect my guitars to the DI box and XLR to XLR between the DI box to mixer? Can I use the same combination?

Thanks again all of you for your replies

REgards,

Kishore
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: John Halliburton on July 12, 2007, 03:47:01 PM
and a P Touch labeler...

Love these, and it's been part of the retrofit this week. One thing I'd like to suggest to Neutrik-how about maiking hoods/locking caps with a recessed flat around the circumference to allow seating of a length of label tape?
I know Neutrik has the colored hoods and the colored rings, but why not some that would allow the P-touch label tape to wrap around in nicely?

Riley-your experience with Switchcraft connectors is opposite of mine-I hate the old style with set screws and the rubber strain relief.  They were always coming apart.  

A proud Neutrik user for almost 25 years,

John

Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Jason Tubbs on July 12, 2007, 04:36:08 PM
Monster's business practices are reason enough to stay as far away from their products as possible.  

It is not an infrequent occurrence to find cables left behind after load out.  The majority go into my spare cable crate.  Monster cables meet my diagonal cutters.

jt
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Greg Nolan on July 12, 2007, 07:37:01 PM
I don't go anywhere without my Golden Oval Cables.
http://www.analysis-plus.com/prod_goldcable.html

Mainly because I can't afford a car after buying them, so I don't really leave the house. But I have never heard such amazing quality come from a cable. I don't even have to power my speakers anymore, the cables just absorb power from the atmosphere.

"Our patented oval design partners with pure gold over Oxygen Free Copper (OFC) to create a LITZ wire absolutely without equal. This 100% shielded coverage incorporates a meticulous designed conductive sheath eliminates microphonic movement noise. Proprietary Teflon dielectric provides the optimal impedance and it is made in the USA. This heirloom quality cable that dares you to compare it to any other cable on the market. All this for just $2,400/meter"

Heirloom quality, wow.

What really sucks is when you are trying to convince someone that what they are hearing by using snake oil cables is bullsh1t, but they refuse to accept it, especially after forking out big dough for it.

It's a good thing they don't make instrument cables for drummers, because then we'd in a world of hurt.  Laughing

-G Nolan
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Scott Helmke (Scodiddly) on July 12, 2007, 07:41:02 PM
John Halliburton wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 14:47



Riley-your experience with Switchcraft connectors is opposite of mine-I hate the old style with set screws and the rubber strain relief.  They were always coming apart.  

A proud Neutrik user for almost 25 years,

John




I'm conflicted about Neutrik vs. Switchcraft.  The Neutrik strain relief is much nicer, it's good with different cable diameters, etc.  On the other hand I don't think I've ever had to deal with a Switchcraft male XLR stuck into a panel jack, but a stuck Neutrik shows up at least every other month.  Doesn't help that it's usually a Neutrik female panel-mount that it's stuck into, there's no easy way to get the two separated.

Folks, do take a look at your Neutrik XLR ends now and then.  If there's any bent spots, please install a new shell.
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Dan Brown on July 12, 2007, 07:56:12 PM
Jim Ferrari wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 07:57

Not to hijack the thread, but, since I'm sure Bob's not suggesting that everyone stock up on Radio Shack cables  Laughing what mic cable holds up best to constant spooling/despooling?


I own hundreds of ProCo M-Series mic cables
Neutrik ends w/223B cable.

I have had maybe 3-4 bad cables in 8 years since I bought the first ones.

Also I have had good luck with Belden 8412 cable, Canare cable and Also Whirlwinds braided shield cables(not the cheap ones with switchcraft type connectors)

I also use only Neutrik connectors.
I have even been known to cut off switchcraft connectors on any used cables I have aquired.

sincerely,
db
Dan B
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Tim Padrick on July 13, 2007, 12:21:58 AM
I've been 99% satisfied with Horizon.

Their Low Z1 is easy to terminate, is flexible, and has withstood being smashed in a door multiple times with no permanent damage (the there were smushes in the jacket, but they eventually went away).  

Same goes for their multipair CL2/CMG-VTG - with one exception - I had a 100' length in which one conductor developed at least four breaks.  Oh well - nothing is perfect (even Lexus has a service department).
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Olli Rajala on July 13, 2007, 08:33:10 AM
The only problem with 8412 is the price. Yep, it may be worth it, but if I can get well performing cable for 1 euro/m and 8412 costs ~6e/m (both includes VAT 22% and are Finnish prices) it should be quite much better to "cover" the price difference...

It may not be a big thing for you big guys, but for me who does mostly combat audio with very limited budget, it's a big, big problem.

Actually, I thought that Belden 1800F is expensive, but it costs here only a little over 2 euros/m...

Of course you can bet that I really would like to have good cable, but alas, not for now.

Best,
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Vic Cowles on July 13, 2007, 09:06:05 AM
I've been using Horizon cables, snakes, multi-pin, etc. from 1996. Now its called VTR.  Nothing but great service from Debbie Boyer all these years. I buy mic, speaker,DMX, and snake cable in bulk.  I'm close to getting the act I work for now switched over to Horizon braided shield mic cables. They have tended to buy whatever is cheapest.  However, had a new vocalist join.  He went to the local music store and bought a "50'monster cable" recently.  Was told by the kid selling it that it was the best cable money can buy.  We'll I'd say it's probably the best cable to throw alot of money at.  He took it back after we talked.
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Gabe Nahshon on July 13, 2007, 10:01:49 AM
The company I work at exclusively uses Mogami cable for all mic cables, adapters and multipin looms for racks.  The sheild is very robust and not really prone to breakage.  They wrap very easily and have a very low failure rate, most likely because of the soldering skill of our cable crafstmen JT, a true master of interconnection.  

I get the sense it is very expensive, especially in the quantity that we use, but if the owner is into it who am I to argue?

I would not to begin to proport that I can hear the difference between this cable and any other properly built cable.  I'll leave that poppycock to the audiophools.

Gabe
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: dave stojan on July 13, 2007, 10:45:50 AM
While I agree with the rest of the posters that snakeoil cables are a waste of money, there are BIG differences between (microphone / signal) cables. Notably, capacitance, microphonic-ness (is that a word?), longevity, ease of use, kink resistance, cold weather performance, etc.

The one poster mentioned a HUGE difference when using different cables on a guitar. High impedance sources (pickups) are extremely susceptible to capacitive loading, and cables WILL make a difference.

So you are wise to ask if there are differences - because there are! Maybe folks will chime in with brand strengths & weaknesses fo all of us to refer to for various applications.

Myself, I have a boatload of old whirlwinds still going strong but prefer my EWI 'Blues' on the basis of cost, performance, reliability and unique color that keeps them from getting mixed up with someone else's cables  Very Happy

Oh yeah, Mark & Liz are just great people to do business with too  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Title: Re: Cables and while were at it another question!!
Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 13, 2007, 11:36:28 AM
As for cables...make your own with either Belden or Canare cable and Neutrik connectors and your set. Be aware that some cables labeled heavy duty, pro, ect. with big fat jackets may have 24 or small gauge inside!

Now for cable storage, do you plug the ends together or not when stored. The other day I was prepping for this weekend and for some reason (maybe it was the heat) I got to wondering about mic cable and for that matter AC cable storage. Mine have always been keep rolled with an end loosely wrapped around the cable and the connectors plugged into each other. This keeps the connectors from dangling around and connectors are protected.The other side for argument could be extra wear on the connectors and with the connectors always mated together there is always tension on the internal connections of the female connectors possibly loosing some of the grip or force when connected. For what it's worth my 125 or so mic cables range from about 17 years old to just a few months, have always been stored in dedicated cases and I can only think of a couple of mic cable probelms ever.

Mike Caldwell

Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Adam Whetham on July 13, 2007, 12:17:35 PM
Tim Padrick wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 23:21

I've been 99% satisfied with Horizon.

Their Low Z1 is easy to terminate, is flexible, and has withstood being smashed in a door multiple times with no permanent damage (the there were smushes in the jacket, but they eventually went away).  

Same goes for their multipair CL2/CMG-VTG - with one exception - I had a 100' length in which one conductor developed at least four breaks.  Oh well - nothing is perfect (even Lexus has a service department).



Agree'd. We are very happy dealers of horizon also, and deffinitly get a much better price on it per 500ft than the Belden.

Neutrik is the only thing we use on XLR's. with a few Whirlwind's here and there.

If the boss man sees a switchcraft XLR Connector in the rental inventory you better duck, cause its going through the air in the direction of the closest person that could have put it away in the bins without cutting off the ends and throwing the cable by the work bench to put Neutrik ends on.
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 13, 2007, 05:23:55 PM
Jim Ferrari wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 08:57

Not to hijack the thread, but, since I'm sure Bob's not suggesting that everyone stock up on Radio Shack cables  Laughing what mic cable holds up best to constant spooling/despooling?


Good one you Maine-iac.  Laughing


Actually in my rambling I was comparing the $20 Radio Shack to the $100 Monster 25' guitar cable. RS still sells the cable, but the price is about $29 now and I still have one I bought 6 years ago that just won't die.
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Tim Duffin on July 13, 2007, 09:39:36 PM
According to these people-- cables are more important than the instruments... just for a laugh:


http://www.mitcables.com/


I actually used to work with one of their "engineers" in a previous life.

T
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Jim Ferrari on July 13, 2007, 11:01:23 PM
Bob Leonard wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:23


Good one you Maine-iac.  Laughing


Born an' raised, ayuh!  Laughing I've been hand coiling for over 35 years and I'm getting ready to assemble a system that requires spooling of mic cables. These may be spooled/de-spooled by volunteer help so the cable needs to be rugged. The Belden 8412 is nice cable but the braid is a bit of a pain to deal with compared to a spiral wrapped shield. If that's what stands up the best to repeated spooling, I'll pick up 500' feet of 8412 and start soldering. Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Andy Peters on July 14, 2007, 01:57:46 AM
Tim Duffin wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 18:39

According to these people-- cables are more important than the instruments... just for a laugh:

http://www.mitcables.com/

I actually used to work with one of their "engineers" in a previous life.


That cracks me up!  Especially the thousand-dollar-a-foot "digital articulation" gizmo:

http://www.mitcables.com/images/stories/static/ma_dig_guts.jpg

-a
Title: Re: Cables Zoalla, Mogami or Monster
Post by: Jason Tubbs on July 14, 2007, 03:12:31 PM
I love the "explanatory" sidebar graphs, too.




http://www.mitcables.com/images/web/english/mp_graph_english2.jpg




The Y axis is "Articulation".  They could call it "More Better-ness" and it would be just as meaningful.

jt