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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Samuel Rees on March 06, 2014, 06:18:59 PM

Title: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Samuel Rees on March 06, 2014, 06:18:59 PM
Slight swerve - but I don't know what Avid is going to do long term about Waves and their new DSP. AAX DSP is not supported by waves - so no Waves on the S3L (or their studio HDX cards). Hard to imagine a new line of avid desks with no waves. Weird.
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on March 07, 2014, 03:33:04 AM
Slight swerve - but I don't know what Avid is going to do long term about Waves and their new DSP. AAX DSP is not supported by waves - so no Waves on the S3L (or their studio HDX cards). Hard to imagine a new line of avid desks with no waves. Weird.

Dont worry, when Digigrid flops, and current Venue / Protools TDM is gone for good, they'll come crawling back... :)
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Ned Ward on March 07, 2014, 02:56:34 PM
Slight swerve - but I don't know what Avid is going to do long term about Waves and their new DSP. AAX DSP is not supported by waves - so no Waves on the S3L (or their studio HDX cards). Hard to imagine a new line of avid desks with no waves. Weird.


I'm running 11 at home and enjoying that McDSP, Sonnox, Softube, SoundToys and others are making better plugins that have been updated in the past 10 years. Got off the Waves merry-go-round last fall and glad I did. I think you'll find that a lot of people in DSP aren't missing Waves one bit… If you haven't demo'd the MCDSP, it's worth the free download to try them out.
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Josh Hana on March 07, 2014, 05:00:12 PM
Has Waves stated that they will not support AAX at any point in the future, or is it just that they don't support it right now?

I'd suspect that we might see something from Waves around the time Avid launches their next live system. Hard to believe with the popularity of Waves on VENUE that they would give that up for the next generation
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on March 07, 2014, 06:55:19 PM
Has Waves stated that they will not support AAX at any point in the future, or is it just that they don't support it right now?


Waves fully supports native AAX, in both 32 and 64 bit on both Windows and Mac as of the release of Version 9 of their plug ins.


What they do not support is DSP AAX on anything other than their own Soundgrid hardware. So for those users running TDM, HD or HDx systems, they are limited to only being able to run Waves plug ins as native format or on their Soundgrid.
Title: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Samuel Rees on March 07, 2014, 09:09:45 PM
Exactly. They used to use avid's hardware when they had nothing to sell - why would they spend money to to dev for a DSP that you buy from someone else? I wonder if they will somehow do some kinda of avid "live only" AAX DSP support. Wild speculation of course.
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on March 08, 2014, 09:24:46 AM
What they do not support is DSP AAX on anything other than their own Soundgrid hardware.

Are Soundgrid servers in fact not just TDM?

I thought the whole AAX DSP thing was because you have to pay Avid for a license to make AAX DSP plugins, but you can't make your own AAX DSP hardware, so you basically eat all these development costs to only sell to HDX users. Waves use TDM themselves in their soundgrid products, so developing for TDM makes sense...

Ultimately, this is a format battle. Waves are banking on digigrid taking over some of the HDX market, and so to try and achieve that, they are making sure digigrid has a monopoly on DSP accelerated waves plugins.

When the dust settles, logic suggests that if digigrid flops, then Waves will adopt AAX DSP in order to get back into the Protools HD market
Title: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Samuel Rees on March 08, 2014, 11:00:29 AM
Are Soundgrid servers in fact not just TDM?

I thought the whole AAX DSP thing was because you have to pay Avid for a license to make AAX DSP plugins, but you can't make your own AAX DSP hardware, so you basically eat all these development costs to only sell to HDX users. Waves use TDM themselves in their soundgrid products, so developing for TDM makes sense...

Ultimately, this is a format battle. Waves are banking on digigrid taking over some of the HDX market, and so to try and achieve that, they are making sure digigrid has a monopoly on DSP accelerated waves plugins.

When the dust settles, logic suggests that if digigrid flops, then Waves will adopt AAX DSP in order to get back into the Protools HD market

This is definitely incorrect. Soundgrid Servers use intel processors - this is easily confirmable on their website, and by the fact that they run many of waves plugins which were never developed for TDM and are "native only" like one-knob. Huge difference. They do NOT use TDM. AAX is a format that is meant to be programmed once for intel chips (AAX native), and is easily transformed to run on avid's new HDX DSPs (unlike TDM, whose native and TDM plugins had to be coded separately from the ground up). This is why the Avid S3L won't run waves - it is based on HDX DSPs, NOT TDM.

This is much more than a format war. I bet Avid is not happy that waves won't release their products for their DSP, because it makes their HDX stuff like HDX cards in studio and avid S3L less appealing. My boss at a studio just bought HD native instead of the much more expensive HDX,
Because half of our damn plugs wouldn't even run on them so there seemed no point.
Title: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on March 08, 2014, 11:21:43 AM
This is definitely incorrect. Soundgrid Servers use intel processors

Right you are. For others interested, info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundGrid

I'm aware of the S3Ls AAX DSP nature.

So then the Waves move is really just to help push Digigrid to the fore. I've always wondered why though. Surely the money is in the software, hardware is expensive and requires big supply and delivery chains that software doesn't. Why go into the hardware game unless you think you are delivering something better/different to what's out there?
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Ned Ward on March 08, 2014, 01:28:09 PM
Yes. This is also Wave's second foray into hardware accelerated DSP; their first was a disaster.

Recoding for AAX DSP hasn't been easy as TDM code was written in arcane assembly language and was completely divorced from the old RTAS code - 2 completely different things. However, AAX and AAX DSP do share some common code, so that has made it easier.

IMHO, I think Waves realized that to actually update their ancient plugins from TDM to AAX DSP wasn't worth it and they're not getting the cash flow in from people purchasing Waves - it's the most cracked set of plugins out there. They keep releasing signature plugins to try and raise more cash and the WUP program, but to rewrite from the ground up their 10-year old plugins? They won't break even on it.

So less of a format war, and more of Waves realizing they can't afford to.
Title: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Samuel Rees on March 10, 2014, 04:12:10 PM
What was their previous DSP attempt?
Title: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on March 10, 2014, 08:41:08 PM
What was their previous DSP attempt?

Wasn't it some bass/subwoofer DSP unit?
Title: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Samuel Rees on March 10, 2014, 08:42:31 PM
I knew about those I suppose. They had a maxxbass unit, they had an L2 limiter, and they currently have a standalone "vintage" compressor of some sort I can't recall, that's a plugin in a box.
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Ned Ward on March 10, 2014, 09:24:06 PM
Waves APA 32 and 44. Hardware accelerated, but didn't work with standard Waves plugins.

Launched in 2005, discontinued in 2008... Also ethernet-based...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/articles/wavesapa32.htm
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Kristo Kotkas on March 16, 2014, 05:59:44 PM

Actually, S3L coming out with such a small amount of plugins available turned out to be a great lesson for me, who owns a Profile loaded with pretty much every TDM plugin out there.

The new desk sounds amazing by itself! To be honest, I only miss a couple of plugins and I have managed to create a work-around since S3L has an easy AVB connection with the recording computer I'm running these plugins native on my computer, it's OK since I only need them on my master fader (L3LL and RenBass plugins a MaxxBCL HW replacement) and don't tweak them at all.

Coming back to the original topic, everybody knows Avid and Digico are competitors but Waves and Digico have signed strategic alliance agreement already in 2010.

To be hones it also seems a bit personal, since Waves is working on solutions to run their plugins on pretty much any other desk out there but Avid's, and there have been some rude words from Waves reps towards Avid.

A lot of people who have supported Waves by paying double for their TDM plugins are not too happy about Waves and Avid parting ways in a such manner. Obviously today these angry people are mainly from the studio side, but the generation of Avid live sound desks will change and this topic will once again arise, when live sound guys using Avid live sound desks and Waves will come to the point where they will need to decide if they will change the desk platform or start to live without Waves.

I know there might come a some sort of DigiGrid-interface solution from Waves for Avid but as an Profile user who has used to have all-in-the-box I don't think I would never-ever consider an solution with external DSP box + external computer for plugin GUI control.

Time will tell...
 
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on March 17, 2014, 06:20:36 AM
Yeah. I'd be very tempted by an S3L if the waves compatibility was there. However, its very expensive.
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Kristo Kotkas on March 17, 2014, 09:01:16 AM
Yeah. I'd be very tempted by an S3L if the waves compatibility was there. However, its very expensive.

Waves is doing a great job on marketing, but the question is, do you really need them? I have a mercury in my studio and I keep an Platinum (pretty much the same as Live) bundle on my Profile.

To be honest I don't use Waves in my Profile rack that much, mainly cause it has a lot of latency. For multiband compression I use McDSP instead, both McDSP and Massey do a nice job at brickwall limiting and now the Avid Pro Limiter is at least as good, even better I would say, and Avid has announced it will be included with S3L's with the next SW release, see this: http://www.avidblogs.com/avid-s3l-live-sound-aax-dsp-plugins/

Don't get me wrong, there are nice plugins in Waves bundles, I love the CLA-3A, MetaFlanger, RenBass and many others and I would love to see them working on S3L.

Regarding the price of S3L... well, it's also how you look at it. Compared to X32 it's obviously expensive, but compared to Profile its much less. I'm personally seriously considering selling the Profile off cause I can get the job done with S3L and it does sound as good, and recording-virtual soundchecking is so so much easier since I have Mac Mini built in the same rack as the S3L ready to go at all times.
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on March 17, 2014, 09:36:33 AM
...both McDSP and Massey do a nice job at brickwall limiting and now the Avid Pro Limiter is at least as good, even better I would say, and Avid has announced it will be included with S3L's with the next SW release, see this: http://www.avidblogs.com/avid-s3l-live-sound-aax-dsp-plugins/

...Regarding the price of S3L... well, it's also how you look at it...

You're right about needing plugins. I use C6, Vocal Rider, Bass Rider, quite extensively. I hadn't thought about McDSP ML4000 instead, although I do like the sound of it, its the C6 interface that I'm used to. Massey L2007 is a killer limiter, but he doesn't do AAX DSP.

I get you're point about S3L, but I think its just crazy money. A 64ch system is £24k over here, and there is no real way to interface it with bigger systems. For £24k I could buy an SD9 system with 2 racks, Waves integration, and the recording machine, and some nice mics, and flightcases...
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Kristo Kotkas on March 17, 2014, 04:47:30 PM
You're right about needing plugins. I use C6, Vocal Rider, Bass Rider, quite extensively. I hadn't thought about McDSP ML4000 instead, although I do like the sound of it, its the C6 interface that I'm used to. Massey L2007 is a killer limiter, but he doesn't do AAX DSP.

I get you're point about S3L, but I think its just crazy money. A 64ch system is £24k over here, and there is no real way to interface it with bigger systems. For £24k I could buy an SD9 system with 2 racks, Waves integration, and the recording machine, and some nice mics, and flightcases...

Honestly, I would think of S3L as a 64 channel mixer only if I would need to use it as a 64 channel tracking system. As a mixer it's truly only useful as a 48 input channel desk since in 64 channel mode you will loose your FX returns.

Mine is a 32 channel system with two stage boxes. Here, my system with mac mini, flight cases, cabling and all the rest costs £12600 + VAT as a plug and play system from the local dealer.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img822/3588/7leu.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on March 20, 2014, 04:02:57 PM
Thats a nice looking setup you have there!
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Valentyn Pavliuchenko on May 30, 2014, 03:15:56 AM
Recoding for AAX DSP hasn't been easy as TDM code was written in arcane assembly language and was completely divorced from the old RTAS code - 2 completely different things. However, AAX and AAX DSP do share some common code, so that has made it easier.

Actually recompiling from AAX Native to AAX DSP in some cases can be done without code modification at all. It's just the way AAX is designed - to not require code rewrite to support a new platform. So the question should be either political or just about amount of testing to be done. (Unless Waves plug-ins are poorly written and are bound to a specific platform).
Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Ned Ward on May 30, 2014, 12:33:19 PM
You're right about needing plugins. I use C6, Vocal Rider, Bass Rider, quite extensively. I hadn't thought about McDSP ML4000 instead, although I do like the sound of it, its the C6 interface that I'm used to. Massey L2007 is a killer limiter, but he doesn't do AAX DSP.

I get you're point about S3L, but I think its just crazy money. A 64ch system is £24k over here, and there is no real way to interface it with bigger systems. For £24k I could buy an SD9 system with 2 racks, Waves integration, and the recording machine, and some nice mics, and flightcases...



Massey has talked about redoing his plugins from TDM to AAX DSP, but right now they are working to get all of their plugins up to AAX. They have a great beta program with new builds almost every week. I would guess once they have all in AAX, they'll then figure out what needs to be in DSP.


Great post on Pro Tools Expert from Michael Carnes (the godfather of lexicon Reverb coding) who now has his own company, Exponential Audio) about how his AAX are optimized so you don't need DSP versions. Interesting thought and shows how far native processing has come. Oh, and his reverbs are crazy good sounding. Download the free demos today to try.
http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2014/5/16/better-than-dsp-performance-from-native-plug-ins.html



Title: Re: Re: Avid Plug In future, was Yamaha Announcement
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on May 30, 2014, 12:42:54 PM
I don't disagree that for the average user, DSP accelerated plugins are now mostly unnecessary. My Macbook Air can handle most of my day to day mixing tasks, letalone a more powerful macbook pro or iMac.

However, this has posed an issue when dealing with the S3L as native processing is not an option.