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Title: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Kidd on April 05, 2014, 01:38:30 AM
Why does it seem todays bands feel the need to use more and more music tracks to the point it is almost "Band Karaoke"? Very frustrating.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 05, 2014, 03:42:39 AM
Why does it seem todays bands feel the need to use more and more music tracks to the point it is almost "Band Karaoke"? Very frustrating.

If you do a show with lots of tracks but have curtains and props and stuff, it's called "theatre".  ;)
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Brian Marshall on April 05, 2014, 07:47:38 AM
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Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Keith Broughton on April 05, 2014, 09:11:59 AM
Why does it seem todays bands feel the need to use more and more music tracks to the point it is almost "Band Karaoke"? Very frustrating.
In this age of ever smaller budgets and people still expecting the BIG SHOW, it's no wonder tracks are used.
The synth player can use a string patch and not a violin player in sight, so who says you shouldn't use backing tracks.
I'm not suggesting something as radical as replacing a grand piano player with a track of the same but, with some due consideration, they can be used effectively.
Just did a gig with a bass guitar track and no player. It was a bit odd but then I do another show with 4 string players and some backing track to fill it out and it works great.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Samuel Rees on April 05, 2014, 09:23:43 AM
As usual, there are shades of gray here. There's a big spectrum between replacing the bass player while he stands and stage and plays along, and playing the string score from your record alongside the band as tracks.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Robert Piascik on April 05, 2014, 09:29:10 AM
The synth player can use a string patch and not a violin player in sight, so who says you shouldn't use backing tracks.
I'm not suggesting something as radical as replacing a grand piano player with a track of the same but, with some due consideration, they can be used effectively.
Just did a gig with a bass guitar track and no player. It was a bit odd but then I do another show with 4 string players and some backing track to fill it out and it works great.

...and then it's a slippery slope to "let's keep the click on because the drummer can't keep time" and "let's keep that kb part in cause we don't have the same sounds" and "let's keep the background vocals in cause we can't duplicate them" and pretty soon it's just easier to keep the whole production in because it "just sounds better"

Of course IT SOUNDS BETTER!

Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on April 05, 2014, 10:28:28 AM
Why does it seem todays bands feel the need to use more and more music tracks to the point it is almost "Band Karaoke"? Very frustrating.

If you work in the "Sound Reinforcement" business, your job is to reinforce the sound, not to judge or complain about what the source is!  Tracks, Bands, DJs, Theatre, Talking Heads, who cares!!!  It's not frustrating at all, you just haven't figured out that live bands with musicians are not the only people that need audio services.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Samuel Rees on April 05, 2014, 10:54:58 AM

...and then it's a slippery slope to "let's keep the click on because the drummer can't keep time" and "let's keep that kb part in cause we don't have the same sounds" and "let's keep the background vocals in cause we can't duplicate them" and pretty soon it's just easier to keep the whole production in because it "just sounds better"

Of course IT SOUNDS BETTER!

99% percent of the bands I have worked with that use a click have good drummers, who play to a click to sync along to tracks (not because they can't keep good time), or because their genre values consistency over variability. Only once did I mix an artist where I actually thought the drummer might be lost without a click.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 05, 2014, 01:20:44 PM
I'm experiencing this phenomenon more often in praise and worship teams as well. I am personally offended by the idea of "musicians" needing backing tracks to prop up their performance. I'm saying this AS a musician!

This is not something I have seen but as another musician, I would also be offended by it.


Steve.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 05, 2014, 02:47:02 PM
I'm experiencing this phenomenon more often in praise and worship teams as well. I am personally offended by the idea of "musicians" needing backing tracks to prop up their performance. I'm saying this AS a musician! It is shamefully apparent that genuine talent is being systematically replaced by the exceedingly high levels of expected stage production that TV shows like IDOL and others continue to perpetuate. It is now trickling down to church music ministry, and frankly, I'm disgusted by it.

What happened to people being trained to actually perform competently with their instrument, instead of simply relying on electronic gizmos to "fill in the gaps"? Yeah, I know there are going to be those who argue that there isn't enough talent to go around anymore, therefore backing tracks are a necessity; but I claim nonsense! I think people have just gotten lazy and it's easier to play a recorded track and fake it on stage.

Now, I realize backing tracks have been used in pre-recorded and live television production since the early 70's, but the first time I witnessed this at the local level, I was a bit shocked.

I was visiting a church and enjoying a cover tune by the band, when it dawned on me that there wasn't a bass player on stage, but the bass riffs were indeed being pounded out! After the service, I asked about it, and was told that it was their policy to use a complete backing track so in the event a worship team member didn't show up to play that particular morning, no one would notice. HA! I guess it took a musician to notice.  ::) Can you imagine how silly it would look if there was no drummer on the kit, but beats were still grooving?

I've had the same thoughts before... I'm kinda glad the 2 churches I mix at regularly(ironically never on Sunday, just various youth nights during the week) aren't set up for backing tracks(no IEMs). Last night we only had 3 band members there so it was piano, bass, and drums, and it worked fine. I also have pleasure of working with some very talented musicians who can make just about any situation work, and when we do have a full band and some rehearsal time they sound really good.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Burke on April 05, 2014, 04:34:38 PM
“I am personally offended by the idea of "musicians" needing backing tracks to prop up their performance. I'm saying this AS a musician!”

Brian Marshall


  I don't know what you do for a living, but I play in a duo for a living. We use backing tracks. It's pure economics, really. We make less now than we did 30 years ago, adjusting for inflation. As a duo, we can scrape out a modest living. With a full band we would starve. We also get gigs that bands couldn't do – private parties, Tiki bars, etc. We've even taken to busking at fairs and festivals.

  If that 'offends' you, I'm sorry. I would love to have a raging 7-piece that tore up the stage, but those days are long gone. Live music is a business of diminishing returns now, and one must do what one can to survive.


Regards,

Bob
 
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 05, 2014, 06:26:26 PM
I'm actually offended by clueless people being offended. There are many, many "A" level acts using backing tracks to supplement the band. I may not be working at that level now, but I use MIDI tracks and about $40K worth of sound equipment to supplement my band. I don't carry a horn section anymore, MIDI, I don't carry a B3 anymore, MIDI. Sometimes I work without bass player and drummer, MIDI. What is always real are the 3 guitar players, vocalists and backup vocalists. As a matter of fact I just spent $2000 on a Roland sound module and the drums can NOT be distinguished from the real deal.

20 years ago I might have agreed. I could get some good horns and keys out of the available sound modules, and not much else. Today is not then and times have changed. I don't want a bunch of wannabe musicians filling the stage pissing and moaning about the key, or some prissy little bitch singer crying about her boyfriend and not enough hog. Working at a higher level you're able to not only work with competent musicians (mostly), but you can pay them well for their efforts and professionalism. I'm almost done with bands and sound at age 62 and work mostly invitational events. I charge very good money, and people love what we do. So, not all tracks are created equal, and very few people actually know how to work with them, but in the end the paying public usually get's a better show of higher quality for less money.
 
I can't hire enough musicians to do what an Integra will do for me, or would I want to. What pisses me off??? People trying to use tracks who just don't know what they're doing, and that's maybe 80% of them, so if those are the people we're talking about I would have to agree.
 
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/1245 (http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/1245)
 
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Lee Douglas on April 05, 2014, 06:40:00 PM
Maybe we can just put mannequins in the seats and nobody will have to show up.   ;)
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on April 05, 2014, 08:05:43 PM
Why does it seem todays bands feel the need to use more and more music tracks to the point it is almost "Band Karaoke"? Very frustrating.

Because those paying to be in the seats don't care.  People would rather watch "reality" shows than live life.  Most "reality" shows are no more real than a band backed entirely by tracks yet they are wildly successful.

Our church has drawn the line at not using any backing track for a normal service.  We will use them for a drama presentation.  Our preference-but one I really like myself.  I always thought a pianist/band whatever accompanied a vocalist-when you play a track, is not everyone accompaning the track?

That said, I understand that in live sound nothing is one size fits all. 
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: David Parker on April 05, 2014, 08:36:42 PM
Why does it seem todays bands feel the need to use more and more music tracks to the point it is almost "Band Karaoke"? Very frustrating.
this isn't something new. Back about '95 I was providing for a popular Christian band, Guardian. They used a vcr some kind of way, got three tracks out of it. One was click and two were stereo backing tracks. The background vocals were on the track. I forget what else. The band all had mics but only the lead singer was actually singing. I worked for a solo Christian artist that had different levels of tracks depending on if he was performing solo, or with different levels of bands.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 05, 2014, 09:31:58 PM
this isn't something new. Back about '95 I was providing for a popular Christian band, Guardian. They used a vcr some kind of way, got three tracks out of it. One was click and two were stereo backing tracks. The background vocals were on the track. I forget what else. The band all had mics but only the lead singer was actually singing. I worked for a solo Christian artist that had different levels of tracks depending on if he was performing solo, or with different levels of bands.

VHS Hi-Fi or digital audio (dbx had a box) on the video track, and the click on the longitudinal analog audio track.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Cailen Waddell on April 05, 2014, 11:09:27 PM
For me it's all about context.  If I go see an acoustic duo, and a song suddenly has a drum kit and horns - why would I be offended?  Clearly they are using tracks.  If I go see a 7 piece band and can tell someone in the band isn't actually playing/singing/trying, then I am disappointed in their apparent lack of dedication to their craft.

Stage shows are a whole different matter - sometimes.  On one tour I was on, the pit orchestra had click as the ensemble couldn't dance and sing one of the numbers.  Vocals were tracked.  Could the audience tell? No.  They were there to enjoy the show and they did (as much as they could - it was a crappy show, with a waste of a lead for most of the tour).

A friend of mine toured with a very popular Irish show.  They all played to a click for the benefit of the dancers (so that timing was on every night), the dancers shoe/tap sounds were also tracked.  If someone in the band was sick - they could unmute his track.  People love that show. The dancers and band sell it, the audience connects, and is entertained.  The checks cash...

In the end I suppose it depends.  Either way my job is to help have a good show.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 05, 2014, 11:39:48 PM
I make no attempt to trick the crowd. My MIDI tracks are specific, well composed, and oh, did I also say licensed?  My inspiration came from Tina Turner about 90'-92'. Listening carefully I heard horn sections, violins, and a pad. I couldn't see them, but I heard them clear as day. Of the 10,000 people in attendance I may have been the only person who noticed the pad. A trip back stage after the show led me to the rest of the band, all racked neatly behind a curtain.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: David Parker on April 06, 2014, 07:45:38 AM
“I am personally offended by the idea of "musicians" needing backing tracks to prop up their performance. I'm saying this AS a musician!”

Brian Marshall


  I don't know what you do for a living, but I play in a duo for a living. We use backing tracks. It's pure economics, really. We make less now than we did 30 years ago, adjusting for inflation. As a duo, we can scrape out a modest living. With a full band we would starve. We also get gigs that bands couldn't do – private parties, Tiki bars, etc. We've even taken to busking at fairs and festivals.

  If that 'offends' you, I'm sorry. I would love to have a raging 7-piece that tore up the stage, but those days are long gone. Live music is a business of diminishing returns now, and one must do what one can to survive.


Regards,

Bob

I saw Queen back in their heyday. When they got to the difficult part of Bohemian Rhapsody, they stepped away from their mics and took a break onstage, no faking it, while a reel-reel recorder I could see at FOH ran the harmony parts.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Burke on April 06, 2014, 08:30:18 AM
  Using "Modern" technology is not for the faint of heart. This is my favorite disaster.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx_GjyXCs4 
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 06, 2014, 09:45:29 AM
Great comment: "it's like spinal tap without any jokes."


Steve.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 06, 2014, 12:02:51 PM
  Using "Modern" technology is not for the faint of heart. This is my favorite disaster.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx_GjyXCs4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx_GjyXCs4)

Clueless Van Halen didn't know he was playing in the wrong key?? I've seen this video before and you're correct Bob, working with technology is not for the faint of heart. In this case though anyone else would have caught the problem in less than a measure, stopped the song, apologized to the crowd, fixed the problem, and started over. This was not the only song at this concert where they shit the bed and it should have been fixed the first time it happened.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: John Sabine on April 06, 2014, 12:39:19 PM
I don't understand why the FOH engineer didn't just pull him down in the mix until someone could whisper into his ears " hey dude, would you mind playing the same song as the rest of us?" Of course that person as well as the FOH guy might have ended up looking for a new job the next day or even that night if they'd done that. Ok, just read the comments and it seems consensus is that the guitar tech was at fault. I wonder what pizza delivery he went to work for after this, not only giving EVH the wrong guitar but the allowing this fiasco to continue for and entire song.
I work with a band that uses tracks to fill in some parts and it really fills out the overall sound and adds to the quality of the production but the backing tracks would sound ridiculous if the band stopped playing. I've seen some groups, including a couple of national acts where if the band left the stage you wouldn't be able to tell a difference. I feel like that's cheating but I guess whatever pays the bills plus if you leave too much to chance plus you might end up making a mistake like EVH in the previously mentioned video and there seems to be little forgiveness for that these days.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 06, 2014, 02:01:57 PM

Clueless Van Halen didn't know he was playing in the wrong key?? I've seen this video before and you're correct Bob, working with technology is not for the faint of heart. In this case though anyone else would have caught the problem in less than a measure, stopped the song, apologized to the crowd, fixed the problem, and started over. This was not the only song at this concert where they shit the bed and it should have been fixed the first time it happened.

Ouch, painful EVH video.  The people I play with would have just adjusted the key on the fly during the first or second bar, a few might have stopped the song depending on how far off it was.  This happens to me fairly frequently with some worship bands, guitarist mis-positions or forgets to move a capo, I just play up or down a few half steps.  Professional musicians ?
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 06, 2014, 02:07:48 PM
Professional musicians ?

Professional doesn't always mean competent.


Steve,
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Kidd on April 06, 2014, 02:53:33 PM
In this age of ever smaller budgets and people still expecting the BIG SHOW, it's no wonder tracks are used.
The synth player can use a string patch and not a violin player in sight, so who says you shouldn't use backing tracks.
I'm not suggesting something as radical as replacing a grand piano player with a track of the same but, with some due consideration, they can be used effectively.
Just did a gig with a bass guitar track and no player. It was a bit odd but then I do another show with 4 string players and some backing track to fill it out and it works great.

This I agree with, but in recent weeks I've had two bands come through that use the actual song as their backing tracks. Vocals and everything. They had guy on keys and while he plays tracks have keys as well. The obvious happens it sounds off. They have a Dj that is part of the band that plays the tracks and will alter BPM,s during song. It sucks because in the rare situation the do not use tracks it sounds great.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 06, 2014, 04:30:54 PM
It sucks because in the rare situation the do not use tracks it sounds great.

Perfect solution:  Backing track in monitors, not in FOH!


Steve.
Title: Not Always Bad
Post by: Russ Davis on April 06, 2014, 05:01:00 PM
This I agree with, but in recent weeks I've had two bands come through that use the actual song as their backing tracks. Vocals and everything.

In 1979 I was DJ'ing (::)) at a HS dance in Miami, and our "special guest" was R&B singer David Hudson who was promoting his single "Pump It".  He handed us the 12" single, took the mic and sang in unison with himself.  Except for some occasional ad-libbed "Yeah!" and "Hey!"-type interjections, he was matching himself perfectly resulting in a nice chorus effect.  At least he wasn't just silently lip-synching.

Then there are artists like Mitch McVicker, who entertainingly use loopers on stage to build up multi-layered backing for themselves, before launching into the actual song...
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Steve Oldridge on April 06, 2014, 05:46:59 PM
Ouch, painful EVH video.  The people I play with would have just adjusted the key on the fly during the first or second bar, a few might have stopped the song depending on how far off it was.  This happens to me fairly frequently with some worship bands, guitarist mis-positions or forgets to move a capo, I just play up or down a few half steps.  Professional musicians ?


The analysis I read on that particular VH issues was that A was set to 444Hz (or something lijke that) on the sequencer instead of 440Hz..   that's not even a 1/2 step up, and to be fair, good or not, you can't play in between frets..  idk if that was true or not, but it's a logical explanation, and I'm sure EVH is good enough to adjust on the fly if the tuning was 1/2 or full step up/down.
Either way, it DOES indicate the downside of using tracks..
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 07, 2014, 12:01:19 AM
...you can't play in between frets.. .

Fretless bass player here.

But I get the point, that would have been a bit more confusing.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Tom Roche on April 07, 2014, 05:07:45 PM
...and then it's a slippery slope to "let's keep the click on because the drummer can't keep time" and "let's keep that kb part in cause we don't have the same sounds" and "let's keep the background vocals in cause we can't duplicate them" and pretty soon it's just easier to keep the whole production in because it "just sounds better"

We were going to use a click for the reasons Samuel Rees gave: to sync with tracks and provide consistency of tempo.  How this relates to your slippery slope comment, Robert, is that I ended up using a click because the other bandmates' tempo swings were akin to monkeys swinging like they were on crack.  And the finger pointing was coming my way.  The only way I could "win" the argument was with a metronome.  Like tape, it doesn't lie.  All this is to say that it isn't just the drummer's job to keep time.  While the drummer may "drive the bus," time is every musician's responsibility.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: David Parker on April 07, 2014, 06:28:06 PM
We were going to use a click for the reasons Samuel Rees gave: to sync with tracks and provide consistency of tempo.  How this relates to your slippery slope comment, Robert, is that I ended up using a click because the other bandmates' tempo swings were akin to monkeys swinging like they were on crack.  And the finger pointing was coming my way.  The only way I could "win" the argument was with a metronome.  Like tape, it doesn't lie.  All this is to say that it isn't just the drummer's job to keep time.  While the drummer may "drive the bus," time is every musician's responsibility.
I played bass with a jazz drummer years ago in a praise band. I had to keep my own time because nothing he played was right on beat. If I stayed on time, I stayed with him, he was on time and consistent, but gave me nothing to hang on to.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Tom Roche on April 07, 2014, 06:49:22 PM
I played bass with a jazz drummer years ago in a praise band. I had to keep my own time because nothing he played was right on beat. If I stayed on time, I stayed with him, he was on time and consistent, but gave me nothing to hang on to.

Sounds like maybe he was playing for himself rather than serviing the music. ??
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: David Parker on April 07, 2014, 08:59:57 PM
Sounds like maybe he was playing for himself rather than serviing the music. ??
no, he was incredible. If there were 20 drums he'd play them all always make it fit. he was an eccentric artist with the drums, but it always fit what we were doing. Just didn't play anything I could lean on, so I had to pay attention to what I was doing.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Russ Davis on April 07, 2014, 09:34:48 PM
Then there's the occasional drummer who insists the click track or metronome is defective... it couldn't POSSIBLY be their drumming...
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: duane massey on April 07, 2014, 11:35:28 PM
Playing to tracks is a long-running practice. Most hilarious (and goofy) was a performer in the Houston area years ago (early 70's) who was related to a well-known musician. He would set up a drum kit, a vocal mic, a Shure Vocalmaster PA, and a 45rpm record changer. He would stack up a pile of records, turn it on, and play and sing with the records. I won't mention names.....
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Jay Barracato on April 08, 2014, 09:08:54 AM
I  probably one of the most "organic" minded of the folks that post here regularly. As a matter of fact some of the greatest musical moments of my career happen totally unamplified in a circle backstage or a festival campground.

With that said I am definitely not offended by a click track nor backing tracks.

With that said, NORMALIZE your damn output so I don't have to guess every song how loud they should be or what channel is making what sounds.



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Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Kidd on April 08, 2014, 02:29:54 PM
I  probably one of the most "organic" minded of the folks that post here regularly. As a matter of fact some of the greatest musical moments of my career happen totally unamplified in a circle backstage or a festival campground.

With that said I am definitely not offended by a click track nor backing tracks.

With that said, NORMALIZE your damn output so I don't have to guess every song how loud they should be or what channel is making what sounds.

+1.  Don't mind it either if used correctly. With the past act using actual full songs with similar instruments trying to play along with track just ask for a bad mix. Just frustrating having people say "hey they sound off" as If it is me. Hearing keys on stage and ms later keys on track. Now I have heard great sets with backing tracks that are used when compensating for missing fiddle ...ect

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Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Burke on April 09, 2014, 09:43:48 AM
  When I was a kid I used to stagehand doing sound and lights at record hops for the top radio DJ in Philly. All of the top acts came through town- Marvin & Tammy, Chiffons, Chubby, just about everybody who had a record out. They all showed up with 45's with everything but the lead vocals on them. They sang along with the tracks. That was high tech back then. We didn't even have stereo yet. Nobody complained. Some of the performances were magical.

 There was no way these folks could have toured with the Funk Brothers, so they used the tech that was available. Did that diminish their performances?

  Nope.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 09, 2014, 09:55:55 AM
  When I was a kid I used to stagehand doing sound and lights at record hops for the top radio DJ in Philly. All of the top acts came through town- Marvin & Tammy, Chiffons, Chubby, just about everybody who had a record out. They all showed up with 45's with everything but the lead vocals on them. They sang along with the tracks. That was high tech back then. We didn't even have stereo yet. Nobody complained. Some of the performances were magical.

 There was no way these folks could have toured with the Funk Brothers, so they used the tech that was available. Did that diminish their performances?

  Nope.

On the flip side, attending one of those shows would have cost about the price of two gallons of gasoline, if they weren't free. Concert costs are higher and my expectations are higher.  Still, I wish I had seen one of the those shows, it wouldn't have bothered me a bit. 

We had the "top 40" Chicago radio station (WLS) come out a few times in high school to blast music through Bose 901s for pep rallies, it was awesome.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Kidd on April 09, 2014, 01:34:41 PM
  When I was a kid I used to stagehand doing sound and lights at record hops for the top radio DJ in Philly. All of the top acts came through town- Marvin & Tammy, Chiffons, Chubby, just about everybody who had a record out. They all showed up with 45's with everything but the lead vocals on them. They sang along with the tracks. That was high tech back then. We didn't even have stereo yet. Nobody complained. Some of the performances were magical.

 There was no way these folks could have toured with the Funk Brothers, so they used the tech that was available. Did that diminish their performances?

  Nope.


If that is something they want I have no issue. Again its the ones  supply backing tracks for instruments that are also being played live. Just makes for a difficult mix.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Patrick Tracy on April 09, 2014, 01:59:44 PM
Clueless Van Halen didn't know he was playing in the wrong key??

He wasn't in the wrong key, the tracks were in the wrong key by an amount that sounds like a 44.1kHz-48kHz clocking error.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Rob Gow on April 09, 2014, 02:18:57 PM
99% percent of the bands I have worked with that use a click have good drummers, who play to a click to sync along to tracks (not because they can't keep good time), or because their genre values consistency over variability. Only once did I mix an artist where I actually thought the drummer might be lost without a click.

True enough. I'm not there to judge, I'm there to make the event sound good. It takes all types.  As long as the cheque clears, I don't care if there's a monkey up on stage banging a trash can lid with a stick for 3 sets.


It's all good 
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Jay Barracato on April 09, 2014, 02:30:40 PM
  As long as the cheque clears, I don't care if there's a monkey up on stage banging a trash can lid with a stick for 3 sets.


It's all good


They were in the club a couple weekends ago. Harder to take than it sounds.

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Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: David Morison on April 10, 2014, 08:15:47 AM

They were in the club a couple weekends ago. Harder to take than it sounds.

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And this would just happen to be the forum without a "Like" button...

Love this one.
D.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 10, 2014, 09:59:34 AM
He wasn't in the wrong key, the tracks were in the wrong key by an amount that sounds like a 44.1kHz-48kHz clocking error.

Patrick,
A clocking error will not cause this problem. A sound module set for a key other than A440 will cause this problem. Regardless the problem should have been caught and the song stopped with an apology to the crowd.
 
Surely Eddie the great knew there was a problem, so my take on this is that 1) ETG can't transpose on the fly. Or 2) Let's get through this and on to the next song because the waterbags won't notice, and I don't care. Based on the applause after the song he would have been right with that assumption.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Jay Barracato on April 10, 2014, 12:12:46 PM
Or there was so I much EVH in what he was hearing in the monitors that he had no clue he wasn't matching the other instruments.

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Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Chris Hindle on April 10, 2014, 12:25:38 PM
Or there was so I much EVH in what he was hearing in the monitors that he had no clue he wasn't matching the other instruments.

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Bingo.... I'd go with Jay on this one. Either way, a pretty shocking "performance" if you ask me.
Title: In Search Of the Lost Chord
Post by: Russ Davis on April 10, 2014, 12:36:29 PM
He wasn't in the wrong key, the tracks were in the wrong key by an amount that sounds like a 44.1kHz-48kHz clocking error.

Regardless, the rest of the band managed to "adapt and overcome".  This happened a few years ago... not to make light of alcoholism, but I wonder if it was before EVH finally got sober.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Patrick Tracy on April 11, 2014, 04:55:08 AM

Patrick,
A clocking error will not cause this problem. A sound module set for a key other than A440 will cause this problem. Regardless the problem should have been caught and the song stopped with an apology to the crowd.
 
Surely Eddie the great knew there was a problem, so my take on this is that 1) ETG can't transpose on the fly. Or 2) Let's get through this and on to the next song because the waterbags won't notice, and I don't care. Based on the applause after the song he would have been right with that assumption.

Well, the pitch shift doesn't match a 44.1-48kHz error, so that's out.

Certainly the show should have been paused to correct things, but I think too much blame is being put on Mr. VanHalen. Besides, it's live music. If there weren't train wrecks once in a while it would get boring.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: David Parker on April 11, 2014, 08:37:26 AM
Well, the pitch shift doesn't match a 44.1-48kHz error, so that's out.

Certainly the show should have been paused to correct things, but I think too much blame is being put on Mr. VanHalen. Besides, it's live music. If there weren't train wrecks once in a while it would get boring.
I saw them about 1979 in Houston, and there were no pitch shifts, but it was still a trainwreck!
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Rufus Crowder on April 11, 2014, 01:34:44 PM
Why does it seem todays bands feel the need to use more and more music tracks to the point it is almost "Band Karaoke"? Very frustrating.
I am with you to a certain extent.  I saw Usher at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo this year.  He had a large band with background vocalists, horn players, etc.  It sounded like a DJ spinning records and Usher singing along with it.  Very frustrating!!!  He had Aaron Spears on drums who is phenomenal but all you saw was his hands flailing and you could not hear what he was playing.  Same with the keyboard players.  Maroon 5 did the same thing, however, their mix was much better.

Nowadays you can get a bunch of good looking people and spin a record, jump around, and get paid!  Milli Vanilli were way before their time!  Ashley Simpson's claim to fame was a major track flub on the Tonight Show years ago. 

I am ok with using them sparingly but definitely not for the entire sound of the band.

Time to put my guitar down and turn into a DJ! 

That Van Halen thing was unbelievable!  How could he not hear that in his ears?  With all of that money, they could have paid a keyboard player for sure!

Unfortunately, 99% of most audiences are not musicians and listen with their eyes! This trend is here to stay and unfortunately starving a lot of really good musicians!
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Ned Ward on April 11, 2014, 02:29:42 PM
This has been around awhile…

The Who used backing tracks on reel to reel 8 track when they took Quadrophenia on the road in '73 and '74 - it was the only way. Same with the synthesizer and organ tracks from Baba O'Reily and Won't Get Fooled Again until 1979 when keyboard player John "Rabbit" Bundrick was added to the roster to play keyboards onstage. Probably when they first started with him, he was still triggering tape for things like the synth part in "Who Are You;" at least by Shea in October 1982 he was playing all the parts on a Memorymoog and other assorted synths.

I don't think anyone who saw them during those times was pissed off that they didn't have 4-5 extra people trying to recreate the synth sounds live…

Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Mike Diack on April 11, 2014, 04:57:05 PM
If you work in the "Sound Reinforcement" business, your job is to reinforce the sound, not to judge or complain about what the source is!  Tracks, Bands, DJs, Theatre, Talking Heads, who cares!!!  It's not frustrating at all, you just haven't figured out that live bands with musicians are not the only people that need audio services.
There are legitimate exemptions for gangsta rap, evangelising preachers and bagpipes.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Rick Powell on April 12, 2014, 05:31:40 PM
Here is our take on it:
* We use backing tracks for about 1/3 of our material.  It wouldn't make sense to hire a full time multi-instrumentalist to cover the occasional parts we need.  With 5 people on stage, we fit into some tight spaces occasionally as it is.
* I will not program a backing vocal ever.  We have 4 vocalists; if we can't cover it with what we've got, we shouldn't be doing it.  Most of our stuff is 2 part with occasional 3 part and rare 4 part.  We are closer to the Rolling Stones than the Eagles with our harmonies, but we choose our material accordingly.
* Pads and parts are great for filling in a song and reducing dropout when the guitarist takes a solo.  I will occasionally program a "lead" keyboard part but not a solo.  For instance, our version of Santana's "Oye Como Va" features a guitar solo where the organ solo would be.  A tracked version of Gregg Rolie's solo with no one on stage would be too cheesy.
* Tracks are great for sound effects.  Bombs, sirens, explosions, etc.  Why hire someone to be an occasional noise maker.
* Tracks tighten a band's awareness and timing, and it takes a special drummer to play to a click with feel and drive.  We have one of thse drummers, so it works. When we first started experimenting with tracks, we flubbed on a regular basis and had to regroup at rehearsals, and occasionally had to shut the track off in mid-song if the band lost its place.  It hasn't happened in a long while and we are a lot tighter in both our track and non-track songs...and I think it is a result of the discipline required to successfully play with a backing track that doesn't "follow the band".
* I saw the Who in 1975, and their use of a recorded track to Baba O'Riley and Won't Get Fooled Again (with Moon wearing headphones) did not really detract from the performance.  I have had zero negative comments from our use of backing tracks in the couple of years we have been out, probably because we really don't over rely on them.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Thomas Le on April 14, 2014, 09:20:18 AM
Just saw Celtic Woman yesterday at the Hobby Center in Houston. All of the orchestral parts were recorded, the only parts that were live are the piano, perc, guitars, wind instruments, bass, and of course the vocals. It was a great show, but I guess that they hop from city to city every day, well I think it wouldn't be reasonable to drag a whole orchestra... ?


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Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 14, 2014, 12:52:39 PM
Just saw Celtic Woman yesterday at the Hobby Center in Houston. All of the orchestral parts were recorded, the only parts that were live are the piano, perc, guitars, wind instruments, bass, and of course the vocals. It was a great show, but I guess that they hop from city to city every day, well I think it wouldn't be reasonable to drag a whole orchestra... ?


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The CW Christmas show uses a full orchestra, locally hired.  I presume they have tracks in case the local players aren't up to standards.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Michael Grimaila on April 14, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
He wasn't in the wrong key, the tracks were in the wrong key by an amount that sounds like a 44.1kHz-48kHz clocking error.

Yes, Eddie's guitar was at fault.  The keyboards are spot on the correct pitch.  Note that later in the song he seems to correct a bit for the offset.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on April 14, 2014, 02:02:05 PM
I did a show a while ago (I don’t remember the persons name) well known Christian performer. It was just him, mostly on piano and guitar for a few numbers. The last number was on tape it had everything but his vocals. It started with guitar and he told me he would fake playing the guitar as it started. It sounded exactly like his guitar just did live. When the full band/orchestral tracks came in I saw a bunch of people whose heads whipped around and were looking all over the place for where all of the rest of the band was. It sounded just fine but it was really funny to see the audiences reaction. 
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Patrick Tracy on April 14, 2014, 02:50:21 PM
Yes, Eddie's guitar was at fault.  The keyboards are spot on the correct pitch.  Note that later in the song he seems to correct a bit for the offset.

I just listened to the original and the synth in that live video is definitely a step or more sharp from the studio recording. Roth is mostly in the original key but seems to get thrown off at times.
Title: Re: Just Venting
Post by: Aram Piligian on April 16, 2014, 09:56:08 AM
Another reason that tracks/click get a lot of use, from what I see, is that they can get click synced to lighting world and have a perfectly designed and timed light show...