Post by: Isaac South on May 07, 2018, 12:23:40 PM
Martin CSX 212 sub
60’x80’ room
Dynacord amps
QU-32 board
DW Collector series drums
Beta 52 kick drum mic
Our bass guitar sounds really good in the house (a church). Fills the room wonderful.
But our kick drum mic sounds terrible. It’s like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end. The DSP was done in the power amps. I would imagine that a crossover was applied to the system. But why are we not getting enough low end out of the kick? Btw, the kick sounds amazing if you are standing next to it. The whole kit does.
When we stand next to the sub, no matter how much we turn up or how much we eq the kick, we cannot “feel” it like we should out of that sub.
What am I missing?
What should I investigate?
Thank you
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: John L Nobile on May 07, 2018, 12:38:01 PM
Martin CDD12 mains
Martin CSX 212 sub
60’x80’ room
Dynacord amps
QU-32 board
DW Collector series drums
Beta 52 kick drum mic
Our bass guitar sounds really good in the house (a church). Fills the room wonderful.
But our kick drum mic sounds terrible. It’s like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end. The DSP was done in the power amps. I would imagine that a crossover was applied to the system. But why are we not getting enough low end out of the kick? Btw, the kick sounds amazing if you are standing next to it. The whole kit does.
When we stand next to the sub, no matter how much we turn up or how much we eq the kick, we cannot “feel” it like we should out of that sub.
What am I missing?
What should I investigate?
Thank you
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How does the mic sound when you talk into it? Have you tried another mic?
And I've seen this one. Are you sure the mic is plugged into the right channel? If the tom and kick inputs are reversed, that's what you'll hear.
Post by: John Daniluk (JD) on May 07, 2018, 12:58:56 PM
jd
Post by: Isaac South on May 07, 2018, 01:05:52 PM
How does the mic sound when you talk into it? Have you tried another mic?
And I've seen this one. Are you sure the mic is plugged into the right channel? If the tom and kick inputs are reversed, that's what you'll hear.
I'm not sure. I'll talk into it tonight and see what happens.
I will also double check the inputs. So you're saying the floor tom (example) is plugged into the stage box kick channel. And visa versa?
At FOH, I'm seeing signal on the kick, when the drummer is kicking it.
Post by: Isaac South on May 07, 2018, 01:08:27 PM
Check to see if you have a low cut enabled on the channel, it should not be enabled. Also try phase reverse on the channel. Is the sub on an aux? Does the system sound good when playing music in the house? Stage monitors should be off doing this test. There should be no eq applied to the channel playing the test music. Are you running a gate or compression?
jd
I did check to make sure the HPF was off. And it is off.
Aux - I don't think the sub is on an Aux. How can I check this?
Phase reverse - I'm not sure how to do that on my board. I'll try to investigate it. Can you explain that one a little? Just so I can learn...
Gate=NO
Compression: Yes, if I'm not mistaken, the compressor was engaged on the kick channel last night. Should it be?
Post by: Kim Guibord on May 07, 2018, 01:19:27 PM
I did check to make sure the HPF was off.Sub is on an aux
Aux - I don't think the sub is on an Aux. How can I check this?
Phase reverse - I'm not sure how to do that on my board. I'll try to investigate it. Can you explain that one a little? Just so I can learn...
Gate=NO
Compression: Yes, if I'm not mistaken, the compressor was engaged on the kick channel last night. Should it be?
Post by: Steve Garris on May 07, 2018, 01:33:11 PM
I did check to make sure the HPF was off. And it is off.
Aux - I don't think the sub is on an Aux. How can I check this?
Phase reverse - I'm not sure how to do that on my board. I'll try to investigate it. Can you explain that one a little? Just so I can learn...
Gate=NO
Compression: Yes, if I'm not mistaken, the compressor was engaged on the kick channel last night. Should it be?
For troubleshooting try turning the comp off. Have you tried different mic positions?
Also, can you turn off or unplug one side of your mains? That might help determine what's going on. Is the lack of "thump" everywhere in the room?
Post by: Luke Geis on May 07, 2018, 01:35:07 PM
Not knowing what type of compression you have going on with the kick and if you are utilizing a subs on aux type system setup, I can only suggest a couple options. First is that if you want to really be able to tune how much thump is coming from the kick, a subs on aux is the only way to go. Next is compression tricks.
For a punchy kick sound you need to use a low ratio compressor setting. 2:1 to 2.5:1 is a pretty good point. You want to adjust the attack so that you use as little as is needed to have the kicks batter sound be apparent. This can be as little as 10ms to as long as 50ms. Shorter attack times reduce the amount of batter you hear in the PA. Next is release times. You want to try and set the release so it is fully released for every beat. So song tempo will effect this setting. 100-150ms is usually a good starting point. The threshold setting is where the magic comes. The amount of compression is going to be based on the attack. Shorter attack times will have more compression at any given threshold setting. Longer attack times will have less compression at any given threshold setting. You are shooting for between 6-10db of compression. So if at 10db of compression you loose too much attack, you will need to lengthen your attack time. This will reduce overall compression, so you will have to lower teh threshold again to get 6-10db of compression. Be sure the compressor is releasing all the way between basic hits. A double kick will obviously not release all the way. If you need less attach from the kick shorten the attack time. As you do this you should notice the amount of compression goes up, so adjust the threshold as needed. Lastly is the knee setting. This one is not as esoteric. Ideally you want a trigger setting, so a low knee setting of 1-2 is a good starting point. However the drummers ability to hit the same every time will effect this. A larger knee setting of 4-5 ( or whatever is the softest knee setting for your compressor ) will get more of every beat into the threshold and can even start to pull in the attack with it. So the ideal knee setting is one that gets the threshold met with every kick without the attack being affected. This usually means a hard to medium knee setting in order to make it more of a trigger. It should be that every time there is a kick, you have 6-10db of compression and the attack is always there.
I also like to put the compressor before the channel EQ. Then I adjust EQ for flavor of sound. If you need more low end, put it in there either by EQing it in or by pushing more to the subs send. I try and keep the mids out of the way and will make a large cut around 250hz or wherever it seems to have the most resonance. Too much mids in a kick is not helpful for a mix. As for attack, I try and allow or emphasize the click sound. Usually between 2khz and 4khz. Some times you get too much of that and you have to cut it instead. In either case you want to have an apparent click somewhere in that region. The compressors job is to simply make the kick punch. This is done by allowing just enough initial attack through and then clamping down on the low end so it is tighter and compressed enough that when turned up, it won't send cones out the front of the subs. This is why 6-10db is ideal. It turns the kick more into a sample. It doesn't really make the kick have any extra bottom end, but controls is so that you can manipulate it to be there. This is a great way to make the kick apparent when you don't have a lot of sub energy available.
Post by: Isaac South on May 07, 2018, 01:36:05 PM
Sub is on an aux
What makes you think that?
Post by: David Winners on May 07, 2018, 01:40:00 PM
Post by: Isaac South on May 07, 2018, 01:44:29 PM
I would start with troubleshooting 101 and follow the signal all the way from the mic to the sub. Turn off any processing along the way. Shut off the top FOH cabinets and isolate the sub. This will allow you to see the path the kick takes through the mixer and then out to your speakers.
I don't think I can do that. When I mute my LR, it mutes everything: mains and sub.
Post by: Isaac South on May 07, 2018, 01:46:06 PM
While the CSX212 sub is pretty good, it is not a gut rumbler. It's -3db range is between 48hz up to 120hz. The modern kick drum sound is heavy in the 50-60hz area and this sub is likely going to have some excursion protection going on in that realm. While 50hz should be a pretty good smack to the chest, a single sub is not going to do it. The sub is rated for 132db continuous, which is really good, but I doubt the sub will allow you to actually get much more than that in reality.
Not knowing what type of compression you have going on with the kick and if you are utilizing a subs on aux type system setup, I can only suggest a couple options. First is that if you want to really be able to tune how much thump is coming from the kick, a subs on aux is the only way to go. Next is compression tricks.
For a punchy kick sound you need to use a low ratio compressor setting. 2:1 to 2.5:1 is a pretty good point. You want to adjust the attack so that you use as little as is needed to have the kicks batter sound be apparent. This can be as little as 10ms to as long as 50ms. Shorter attack times reduce the amount of batter you hear in the PA. Next is release times. You want to try and set the release so it is fully released for every beat. So song tempo will effect this setting. 100-150ms is usually a good starting point. The threshold setting is where the magic comes. The amount of compression is going to be based on the attack. Shorter attack times will have more compression at any given threshold setting. Longer attack times will have less compression at any given threshold setting. You are shooting for between 6-10db of compression. So if at 10db of compression you loose too much attack, you will need to lengthen your attack time. This will reduce overall compression, so you will have to lower teh threshold again to get 6-10db of compression. Be sure the compressor is releasing all the way between basic hits. A double kick will obviously not release all the way. If you need less attach from the kick shorten the attack time. As you do this you should notice the amount of compression goes up, so adjust the threshold as needed. Lastly is the knee setting. This one is not as esoteric. Ideally you want a trigger setting, so a low knee setting of 1-2 is a good starting point. However the drummers ability to hit the same every time will effect this. A larger knee setting of 4-5 ( or whatever is the softest knee setting for your compressor ) will get more of every beat into the threshold and can even start to pull in the attack with it. So the ideal knee setting is one that gets the threshold met with every kick without the attack being affected. This usually means a hard to medium knee setting in order to make it more of a trigger. It should be that every time there is a kick, you have 6-10db of compression and the attack is always there.
I also like to put the compressor before the channel EQ. Then I adjust EQ for flavor of sound. If you need more low end, put it in there either by EQing it in or by pushing more to the subs send. I try and keep the mids out of the way and will make a large cut around 250hz or wherever it seems to have the most resonance. Too much mids in a kick is not helpful for a mix. As for attack, I try and allow or emphasize the click sound. Usually between 2khz and 4khz. Some times you get too much of that and you have to cut it instead. In either case you want to have an apparent click somewhere in that region. The compressors job is to simply make the kick punch. This is done by allowing just enough initial attack through and then clamping down on the low end so it is tighter and compressed enough that when turned up, it won't send cones out the front of the subs. This is why 6-10db is ideal. It turns the kick more into a sample. It doesn't really make the kick have any extra bottom end, but controls is so that you can manipulate it to be there. This is a great way to make the kick apparent when you don't have a lot of sub energy available.
Great info. I will try some of this. I was told by the install company, that this sub was "amazing" and he actually recommended it over a dual 18. I tried to get the 18, but he kept telling me this 212 is more than enough. And for bass, so far it is. We love it. But I'm beginning to think the 18" or possibly even more subs, as you said, would be better. Thanks again for your input.
Post by: David Winners on May 07, 2018, 01:56:48 PM
I don't think I can do that. When I mute my LR, it mutes everything: mains and sub.
I still recommend following the signal all the way from the mic, through the board, to the speakers.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 07, 2018, 02:04:54 PM
It sounds like the system is "full range" where the subs and mains are driven from console L/R.
However.... I have a couple of questions before offering up my guesses...
Has it sounded like this from day one? If not, what changed? If it sounded like this from the beginning why haven't you called the installer back? Does the kick drum require significantly more input channel gain than you'd expect?
The 3 possibilities as I see them in my Digital Crystal Ball - if a new problem, the microphone or microphone cable or subsnake channel has become "one legged". The level need would be the first clue, followed by noticing the lack of LF.... If this is a 'day one' problem the other possibilities are an erroneous setting in the system DSP, whether in the amps or as a stand-alone unit or a polarity reverse (not "phase" as mentioned above) in the wiring between power amp and subs. If there is only 1 sub, the issue is either DSP or one-legged signal.
I'd start by substituting an SM 57 or 58 for the Beta 52 to see if the level or sound changed. If not, put the Beta 52 back and replace the mic cable with a known-good cable. If nothing changes, use a different subsnake line or home-run (using known-good mic cables) to the snake head/digital input box or console input, as appropriate. If nothing changes try another input on the console (or digital input box). Presuming nothing is different you need to call the installer back and have them verify the DSP and wiring.
Post by: Stephen Kirby on May 07, 2018, 02:10:33 PM
Live, if someone has a really damped dead kick it won't hurt it too much to put a bit of low ratio (<2:1) compression on it. But if they're got a really well tuned and set up kick and know how to play it, I'll turn down the gain a bit to have headroom and let the dynamics drive the music.
I still put compression as a sort of peak limiting on bass players who slap and pop, or singers with poor mic technique. But the basic kick drum sound I use typically relies on a gate to control boom in the room more than compression.
Post by: Isaac South on May 07, 2018, 02:18:10 PM
I'm not familiar with the Martin sub you have but am skeptical that most 2x12 subs would keep up in a 4800 sf room (LABhorn and a couple others are the exceptions).
It sounds like the system is "full range" where the subs and mains are driven from console L/R.
However.... I have a couple of questions before offering up my guesses...
Has it sounded like this from day one? If not, what changed? If it sounded like this from the beginning why haven't you called the installer back? Does the kick drum require significantly more input channel gain than you'd expect?
The 3 possibilities as I see them in my Digital Crystal Ball - if a new problem, the microphone or microphone cable or subsnake channel has become "one legged". The level need would be the first clue, followed by noticing the lack of LF.... If this is a 'day one' problem the other possibilities are an erroneous setting in the system DSP, whether in the amps or as a stand-alone unit or a polarity reverse (not "phase" as mentioned above) in the wiring between power amp and subs. If there is only 1 sub, the issue is either DSP or one-legged signal.
I'd start by substituting an SM 57 or 58 for the Beta 52 to see if the level or sound changed. If not, put the Beta 52 back and replace the mic cable with a known-good cable. If nothing changes, use a different subsnake line or home-run (using known-good mic cables) to the snake head/digital input box or console input, as appropriate. If nothing changes try another input on the console (or digital input box). Presuming nothing is different you need to call the installer back and have them verify the DSP and wiring.
It's possible that it was from day one. We honestly haven't individually checked the drum mic. We just adjusted levels at FOH to set it in the mix.
But last night, we hired a sound engineer to come in and run sound for us during a service. He got there early and we went through a full sound-check. As he went through the drums, he noticed that the kick just didn't sound right. We moved the mic around and it sounded better, but he wasn't getting the sound that it should have.
He kept asking me over and over if the sub was on an aux. I didn't' have the answer for him.
I don't think it requires substantially more gain that I'd imagine.
I am going to check signal flow, and try a different cable tonight.
We only have one sub. The dual 212. So you're saying the polarity is not the issue in this case?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 07, 2018, 02:38:11 PM
It's possible that it was from day one. We honestly haven't individually checked the drum mic. We just adjusted levels at FOH to set it in the mix.
But last night, we hired a sound engineer to come in and run sound for us during a service. He got there early and we went through a full sound-check. As he went through the drums, he noticed that the kick just didn't sound right. We moved the mic around and it sounded better, but he wasn't getting the sound that it should have.
He kept asking me over and over if the sub was on an aux. I didn't' have the answer for him.
I don't think it requires substantially more gain that I'd imagine.
I am going to check signal flow, and try a different cable tonight.
We only have one sub. The dual 212. So you're saying the polarity is not the issue in this case?
If you had 2 subs and one of them was out of polarity with the other sub, rather than getting summation (or power alley if they were positioned L/R) you'd get cancellation. This most often happens when the subs are passive and one of the speaker cables is wired backwards on one end. Since you only have 1 sub, this can't happen.
If the send to the subs were out of polarity WRT to the mains, the cancellation would be in the acoustic crossover; that puts such cancellation around 80Hz or so. If you're not hearing or feeling 40-50Hz when standing near the sub, the problem is not polarity between tops and sub.
Does the kick drum sound wimpy (highly technical term, I know...) over the headphones, especially if compared to the bass guitar? If so, my thoughts about one-legged signal line is closer to confirmation but if it sounds like a kick drum over the 'phones, the problem is most likely after the console outputs.
Post by: Isaac South on May 07, 2018, 02:57:10 PM
If you had 2 subs and one of them was out of polarity with the other sub, rather than getting summation (or power alley if they were positioned L/R) you'd get cancellation. This most often happens when the subs are passive and one of the speaker cables is wired backwards on one end. Since you only have 1 sub, this can't happen.
If the send to the subs were out of polarity WRT to the mains, the cancellation would be in the acoustic crossover; that puts such cancellation around 80Hz or so. If you're not hearing or feeling 40-50Hz when standing near the sub, the problem is not polarity between tops and sub.
Does the kick drum sound wimpy (highly technical term, I know...) over the headphones, especially if compared to the bass guitar? If so, my thoughts about one-legged signal line is closer to confirmation but if it sounds like a kick drum over the 'phones, the problem is most likely after the console outputs.
Ok that makes sense about the polarity. Thanks for clearing that up.
Headphones at FOH. Great idea. I will give that a try. Is that something I can do, while the band is playing? Another words, if I plug in headphones during a performance tonight, it won't stop the sound coming from the mains, correct?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 07, 2018, 04:11:48 PM
Ok that makes sense about the polarity. Thanks for clearing that up.
Headphones at FOH. Great idea. I will give that a try. Is that something I can do, while the band is playing? Another words, if I plug in headphones during a performance tonight, it won't stop the sound coming from the mains, correct?
The quick answer is NO. Using the PFL/input solo function should not interrupt program audio to the L/R outputs. Listen to the kick, it should kind of sound like the EQ looks (i.e. if you have a big bump at 50Hz, you should hear more 50Hz in the phones). Release the PFL/solo from the kick and listen to the bass guitar. If both input "sound right" then you have a system issue. If the kick still sounds thin and weak we're back to mic/cables etc.
Post by: Stu McDoniel on May 07, 2018, 04:13:58 PM
I'm not sure. I'll talk into it tonight and see what happens.Just try another mic on the kick drum. Also, as posted make sure you do not have low cut enabled on that channel.
I will also double check the inputs. So you're saying the floor tom (example) is plugged into the stage box kick channel. And visa versa?
At FOH, I'm seeing signal on the kick, when the drummer is kicking it.
Post by: Caleb Dueck on May 07, 2018, 09:30:41 PM
Great info. I will try some of this. I was told by the install company, that this sub was "amazing" and he actually recommended it over a dual 18. I tried to get the 18, but he kept telling me this 212 is more than enough. And for bass, so far it is. We love it. But I'm beginning to think the 18" or possibly even more subs, as you said, would be better. Thanks again for your input.1-2 CSX 218 subs would fix this. A single 212 can only dream of reproducing a big kick sound. I've used that 212 sub before; we often use a pair of CSX218 subs in similar/slightly larger rooms and in that setup they work great.
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Post by: Mike Caldwell on May 08, 2018, 12:03:42 AM
I just looked that sub up, while I'm sure it's a nice compact little sub a pair of front loaded direct radiator 12's are not going to cave your chest in with kick drum impact and rock the room like I'm sure your wanting to do, for that matter neither would a single 18 front loaded direct radiator sub.
As far as speaker cone surface area goes two 12 inch speakers are just about the same as a single 18.
You mentioned your hired sound guy could not figure out if your subs were on an aux or not.... it may be time to look for another sound guy.
In my quick read of the specs it did not make mention to this but if it is a bi-wired cabinet as in each speaker has it's own speaker cable line going to the amp and one of those lines has the polarity flipped that would greatly reduce any low frequency output.
Post by: Robert Lunceford on May 08, 2018, 02:07:26 AM
In my quick read of the specs it did not make mention to this but if it is a bi-wired cabinet as in each speaker has it's own speaker cable line going to the amp and one of those lines has the polarity flipped that would greatly reduce any low frequency output.
The OP wrote that the bass guitar sounds amazing so I doubt there is an issue with polarity.
Once the issue is resolved, since you have a QU mixer, go to the PEQ library and call up the Drum:KK1 preset for your kick drum channel. Turn on the HP filter and set to around 65Hz. This is a good starting point. Adjust the HP filter to find the best setting for your system.
Post by: Mike Caldwell on May 08, 2018, 07:38:33 AM
Our bass guitar sounds really good in the house (a church). Fills the room wonderful.
But our kick drum mic sounds terrible. It’s like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end. The DSP was done in the power amps. I would imagine that a crossover was applied to the system. But why are we not getting enough low end out of the kick? Btw, the kick sounds amazing if you are standing next to it. The whole kit does.
Like I said before your sub is not going to knock people over.
Does your bass guitar use an on stage amp and go to the pa, maybe the combination of the amp and the mains is what give the sense that the bass filling the room.
Your sentence " It’s like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end"
If you can hear the top end the kick/click coming through the sub
there is a problem in the system processor set up.
You need to or get someone to go through the system and make sure it is configured properly, your sub is what it is but at least you'll know the system is doing all it can.
A simple test would be to turn off the main speaker amps only leaving the sub turned on, run some pink noise through the system (your mixer has that and a sine wave generator built in) with that your should only hear a rumbling sound no discernible top end at all. Do the same thing with the sine wave generator, after about 200hz or so you should not hear much if anything coming out of the subs.
In your mixer set up are you assigning the drum channels to sub group, if so you need then to check that the drum channels are not directly assigned to the L+R main outs. If they are there is slight timing difference between the direct routing and the sub group routing that will cause some phase shift issues.
Post by: John Daniluk (JD) on May 08, 2018, 08:19:22 AM
jd
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on May 08, 2018, 11:29:30 AM
Have you tried just tuning the kick a bit higher and seeing what happens, I remember that helped with a system that was a little under powered in the sub department.
Also we have a DW performer series in our larger venue and that sounds great with a sub kick, I find I need to eq a bit much with a B52 however if I had to drop the sub kick I would go to the Audix D6 which sounds great. An AKG D112 is also another option, I've never been a fan of the B52 but it is the most common mic and most BEs want it over the D6, probably because they know how it should sound.
Post by: Lee Buckalew on May 08, 2018, 12:00:32 PM
Martin CDD12 mains
Martin CSX 212 sub
60’x80’ room
Dynacord amps
QU-32 board
DW Collector series drums
Beta 52 kick drum mic
Our bass guitar sounds really good in the house (a church). Fills the room wonderful.
But our kick drum mic sounds terrible. It’s like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end. The DSP was done in the power amps. I would imagine that a crossover was applied to the system. But why are we not getting enough low end out of the kick? Btw, the kick sounds amazing if you are standing next to it. The whole kit does.
When we stand next to the sub, no matter how much we turn up or how much we eq the kick, we cannot “feel” it like we should out of that sub.
What am I missing?
What should I investigate?
Thank you
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Isaac,
Have you listened to a recording that you know well that has a kick drum sound like you want?
How does it sound on your PA?
Do you know how the system tuning is?
With subs like that in that room there is going to be some compromise between LF extension and output capability.
Is the bass you mention a 4 string or 5 string?
The factory recommended starting point for tuning of the CSX212 is a 55Hz, 6dB boost, Q of 1 combined with a 20Hz, 24dB/Oct high-pass.
I would listen to something that you know well and see what is different in your PA than in your good quality headphones or home stereo speakers.
Lee
Post by: Isaac South on May 08, 2018, 01:07:35 PM
The OP wrote that the bass guitar sounds amazing so I doubt there is an issue with polarity.
Once the issue is resolved, since you have a QU mixer, go to the PEQ library and call up the Drum:KK1 preset for your kick drum channel. Turn on the HP filter and set to around 65Hz. This is a good starting point. Adjust the HP filter to find the best setting for your system.
I will give that a try. Thanks for the tip.
Post by: Isaac South on May 08, 2018, 01:10:27 PM
Like I said before your sub is not going to knock people over.
Does your bass guitar use an on stage amp and go to the pa, maybe the combination of the amp and the mains is what give the sense that the bass filling the room.
Your sentence " It’s like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end"
If you can hear the top end the kick/click coming through the sub
there is a problem in the system processor set up.
You need to or get someone to go through the system and make sure it is configured properly, your sub is what it is but at least you'll know the system is doing all it can.
A simple test would be to turn off the main speaker amps only leaving the sub turned on, run some pink noise through the system (your mixer has that and a sine wave generator built in) with that your should only hear a rumbling sound no discernible top end at all. Do the same thing with the sine wave generator, after about 200hz or so you should not hear much if anything coming out of the subs.
In your mixer set up are you assigning the drum channels to sub group, if so you need then that the drum channels are not directly assigned to the L+R main outs. If they are there is slight timing difference between the direct routing and the sub group routing that will cause some phase shift issues.
We do not have anything (to my knowledge) assigned to a sub group.
The bass player has an amp on stage (GK). He has the master turned up to only 1. So it's basically not even there.
I may give the pink noise a try. Although, that's a bit over my head to be honest.
I'd say there's a small timing difference. We ended up moving our mains back a few feet after the install because the people in the alter area could hear nothing. Yes, I know we should have done front fills. I am disappointed in our install company. Long story. That's another topic. But for the timing difference, I wouldn't know how to fix the delay.
Post by: Isaac South on May 08, 2018, 01:13:10 PM
Isaac,
Have you listened to a recording that you know well that has a kick drum sound like you want?
How does it sound on your PA?
Do you know how the system tuning is?
With subs like that in that room there is going to be some compromise between LF extension and output capability.
Is the bass you mention a 4 string or 5 string?
The factory recommended starting point for tuning of the CSX212 is a 55Hz, 6dB boost, Q of 1 combined with a 20Hz, 24dB/Oct high-pass.
I would listen to something that you know well and see what is different in your PA than in your good quality headphones or home stereo speakers.
Lee
I've listened to plenty of tracks through the system. But I haven't really paid attention to the kick. I'll do that.
The bass is a 5-string. It sounds really really good. Fills the whole room.
"The factory recommended starting point for tuning of the CSX212 is a 55Hz, 6dB boost, Q of 1 combined with a 20Hz, 24dB/Oct high-pass. " Do you mean that's what it should be in the DSP of the poweramp? Is that something I should check, or do you recommend I leave that alone?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on May 08, 2018, 01:49:27 PM
I've listened to plenty of tracks through the system. But I haven't really paid attention to the kick. I'll do that.
The bass is a 5-string. It sounds really really good. Fills the whole room.
"The factory recommended starting point for tuning of the CSX212 is a 55Hz, 6dB boost, Q of 1 combined with a 20Hz, 24dB/Oct high-pass. " Do you mean that's what it should be in the DSP of the poweramp? Is that something I should check, or do you recommend I leave that alone?
So...the fundamental on a 5 string open B is about 31Hz. The perception of a system that does not reproduce that frequency well could still be "really good" as you would still be hearing the associated harmonic sequence.
Unless you are dealing with slapped/funk/plucked bass the requirement of peak SPL/transient response will probably be very different between bass guitar and kick drum. Listen to a track with kick that you really know and like. See if it sounds good to you. If so, more than likely there is something that needs to be addressed differently in the input signal chain from the kick mic such as compression, which has already been mentioned or you need to change how you are micing the drum or changes need to be made both to the micing and the signal chain.
Until you know what the incoming signal actually sounds like you cannot "fix" the problem since you don't really know what the problem is.
The recommended factory tuning is a starting point and should not just be arbitrarily utilized as "The Tuning". It needs to be considered along with the overall system, the room, the overall requirements of frequency range vs. SPL, etc. So, it is simply a starting point for someone who knows how to properly setup the system.
You can download the recommended baseline tunings at the manufacturers website https://martin-audio.com/support/loudspeaker-settings
the General Presets V3.9 zip file contains all current baseline tunings.
Lee
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 08, 2018, 04:48:16 PM
I may give the pink noise a try. Although, that's a bit over my head to be honest.
What part don't you understand?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 08, 2018, 04:53:35 PM
I will probably say some of the same things that others have in response to your problem in this post.
How does playback of music that you are familiar with sound?
How long ago was this sound system put in? Are you in charge of the sound or one of the helpers? Has the system installer come in and explained how the system is setup and how to operate it? Obviously if they have they didn’t do a good enough job that you were able to understand enough to answer some of the questions here. Have they been told of the kick drum complaint? What is their answer? Do you have to pay to get the original installer in to show you how it works?
Have you tried muting the sound system while the bass player is playing to see how much difference it makes? Have you tried muting the bass players channel to see how much difference it makes? These tests are to make sure that what you are hearing is actually coming from the sound system.
What amp or amps are you using, what model Dynacord? Do you have the Martin settings for this amp (or these amps) for you system? How many amplifiers do you have for the house speakers? Is there a separate one for the Sub? Have you tried turning the sub amp off or if it is one side of an amp have you tried tuning that side off if you can? This is to see if it really makes a difference. Better yet turn off all of the other amps and leave only the Sub amp up.
You said that - “But last night, we hired a sound engineer to come in and run sound for us during a service. He got there early and we went through a full sound-check. As he went through the drums, he noticed that the kick just didn't sound right. We moved the mic around and it sounded better, but he wasn't getting the sound that it should have.”
I would say if he knew of this problem and brought him in to deal with it he wasn’t there early enough to troubleshoot that problem. Or he doesn’t have the skills that you need to figure this out.
Does the kick drum have a hole in the head? Where is the mic placed on the kick? Do you have any pictures that you can post that will answer this and just the general setup of the speakers?
If this system isn’t setup with Aux fed subs it might help to change it to that type of setup. I know some people don’t like a system setup that way and it can lead to sub abuse. But it can help in a lot of cases if you only put in the sub what you want reproduced by the sub.
If the main speakers aren’t crossed over to eliminate the frequency range that the subs are supposed to reproduce, they can interfere and cancel some of the sub frequencies. Some of the tests I recommended will answer some of these questions.
Post by: Isaac South on May 08, 2018, 04:55:27 PM
What part don't you understand?
Well if I can get it turned on first, which I think I can google it and figure out how, I wouldn’t know what to do with the sound. I guess just look at the RTA and level out any peaked frequencies??? Also, I’ll need to get a measurement mic, right?
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Post by: dave briar on May 08, 2018, 05:10:21 PM
just out of curiosity does the QU-32 board allow off line programming?Nope. Sure wish the QU-24 at my normal venue did as I make great use of that capability on my X32s.
..db
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 08, 2018, 05:16:17 PM
Well if I can get it turned on first, which I think I can google it and figure out how, I wouldn’t know what to do with the sound. I guess just look at the RTA and level out any peaked frequencies??? Also, I’ll need to get a measurement mic, right?
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You can get an analyzer amp on your phone to get a rough idea.
I would not use pink noise. I would use the oscillator and just start around 120hz and roll down. Make sure it doesn't roll off prematurely.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 08, 2018, 05:38:26 PM
Well if I can get it turned on first, which I think I can google it and figure out how, I wouldn’t know what to do with the sound. I guess just look at the RTA and level out any peaked frequencies??? Also, I’ll need to get a measurement mic, right?
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The reason to use noise, pink or otherwise, is because it randomly includes ALL frequencies within the stated bandwidth (subject to roll off around the edges from any filtering). As a source used to evaluate audio components and systems for proper *technical* operation it's far better than music. Using music makes our brains get fooled. We fill in lots of missing info with what we think should be there, even when it's not.
If you send pink noise to the L/R outputs you should hear the "jet taking off" sound. Turn off or turn down the amplifier powering your top boxes and listen to what comes out of the sub. If there's anything higher pitched than a low-ish rumble (especially if it sounds like the tops) you have a DSP issue. Based on Lee's post that would be a preset in the amp. If the subwoofer amp is not showing the correct preset you need to do 2 things - find out which one is supposed to be in use, along with any tweaks from the installer and recall it; and after verifying proper operation, find out how to lock out the amp front panel controls and lock it up. Ditto for the amp(s) powering the top boxes.
I don't know if something was messed with or if the installers hit the wrong button but in an install there is almost no justifiable reason to leave presets and controls accessible.
Post by: Isaac South on May 08, 2018, 11:48:01 PM
The reason to use noise, pink or otherwise, is because it randomly includes ALL frequencies within the stated bandwidth (subject to roll off around the edges from any filtering). As a source used to evaluate audio components and systems for proper *technical* operation it's far better than music. Using music makes our brains get fooled. We fill in lots of missing info with what we think should be there, even when it's not.
If you send pink noise to the L/R outputs you should hear the "jet taking off" sound. Turn off or turn down the amplifier powering your top boxes and listen to what comes out of the sub. If there's anything higher pitched than a low-ish rumble (especially if it sounds like the tops) you have a DSP issue. Based on Lee's post that would be a preset in the amp. If the subwoofer amp is not showing the correct preset you need to do 2 things - find out which one is supposed to be in use, along with any tweaks from the installer and recall it; and after verifying proper operation, find out how to lock out the amp front panel controls and lock it up. Ditto for the amp(s) powering the top boxes.
I don't know if something was messed with or if the installers hit the wrong button but in an install there is almost no justifiable reason to leave presets and controls accessible.
Ok that makes sense. I could see how our minds would imagine something is there when it’s not. Thanks for helping me understand it.
I’m 100% sure no one has messed with the power amps since installation. Only a handful of people have access to them, and we wouldn’t know how to even do anything with the DSP even if we made it that far into the screens. Ha
I learned how to turn the noise generator on. Is it safe for me to go ahead and turn it on? Furthermore, once I turn it on, what should I do next?
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Post by: Robert Lunceford on May 09, 2018, 02:04:00 AM
Press the dedicated "Setup" button. The generator is then under Audio - SigGen.
Choose the type of noise you want to generate, route the noise (in your case LR), increase the level. Make sure your master fader is up to an adequate level.
When using Sine, you can sweep the frequency. Start at around 100Hz and then sweep down to hear the low frequency response of your system.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 09, 2018, 03:38:59 AM
The factory recommended starting point for tuning of the CSX212 is a 55Hz, 6dB boost, Q of 1 combined with a 20Hz, 24dB/Oct high-pass.
Lee
Lee, I promise that highpass setting is wrong. It'll be way below the port tuning frequency and will still allow a lot of potentially damaging LF power to get to the cones. Without an impedance curve, I'd set off at 45Hz.
I can see that Martin have listed the 20Hz filter for all their subwoofers, and will be contacting them about that shortly.
Chris
Post by: Bill McIntosh on May 09, 2018, 11:34:38 AM
I still recommend following the signal all the way from the mic, through the board, to the speakers.Isaac - check that the kick channel is turned up in the sub aux.
Don't ask why I know to look for that.
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Post by: Isaac South on May 09, 2018, 11:38:47 AM
Isaac - check that the kick channel is turned up in the sub aux.
Don't ask why I know to look for that.
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Other people have been asking me if my sub is on an aux. How do I find out whether it is or not?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on May 09, 2018, 11:56:44 AM
Lee, I promise that highpass setting is wrong. It'll be way below the port tuning frequency and will still allow a lot of potentially damaging LF power to get to the cones. Without an impedance curve, I'd set off at 45Hz.
I can see that Martin have listed the 20Hz filter for all their subwoofers, and will be contacting them about that shortly.
Chris
Chris,
I have used the LF High Pass tunings provided by them for years and never have lost a sub driver in a passive box going all the way back to the FSX (199x era). I understand what you are saying about the port tuning frequency and that is my normal approach with other manufacturers. I will be interested to hear what you find out.
Lee
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 09, 2018, 12:01:30 PM
Other people have been asking me if my sub is on an aux. How do I find out whether it is or not?
See my reply earlier in this thread I give you some trouble shooting steps.
Post by: Isaac South on May 09, 2018, 12:13:51 PM
See my reply earlier in this thread I give you some trouble shooting steps.
Kevin you’ll have to forgive me somehow I completely overlooked your previous post. I will respond to it in the next hour or so.
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Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 09, 2018, 12:39:11 PM
Chris,
I have used the LF High Pass tunings provided by them for years and never have lost a sub driver in a passive box going all the way back to the FSX (199x era). I understand what you are saying about the port tuning frequency and that is my normal approach with other manufacturers. I will be interested to hear what you find out.
Lee
Hi Lee,
I emailed Martin, and they've got back to me saying that the LR24 highpass at 20Hz is correct.
I've sent a couple of graphs (below) that show why I think a BW24 filter set higher up would be better, and we'll see what they say.
Chris
Post by: Dave Garoutte on May 09, 2018, 12:47:32 PM
Is the sub functional?
Is it getting signal?
Is it getting the right signal?
It's a logical process that require you to not assume that ANYTHING is working correctly. Start simple and work your way to more complicated.
For example, I have a friend who repairs fridges who always tells the callers to check that their fridge is plugged in. Probably 25% of the time that's the problem.
With the suggested noise generators, your ears are a powerful tool. Listen for what's missing.
Post by: Isaac South on May 09, 2018, 01:23:16 PM
I will probably say some of the same things that others have in response to your problem in this post.
How does playback of music that you are familiar with sound?
How long ago was this sound system put in? Are you in charge of the sound or one of the helpers? Has the system installer come in and explained how the system is setup and how to operate it? Obviously if they have they didn’t do a good enough job that you were able to understand enough to answer some of the questions here. Have they been told of the kick drum complaint? What is their answer? Do you have to pay to get the original installer in to show you how it works?
Have you tried muting the sound system while the bass player is playing to see how much difference it makes? Have you tried muting the bass players channel to see how much difference it makes? These tests are to make sure that what you are hearing is actually coming from the sound system.
What amp or amps are you using, what model Dynacord? Do you have the Martin settings for this amp (or these amps) for you system? How many amplifiers do you have for the house speakers? Is there a separate one for the Sub? Have you tried turning the sub amp off or if it is one side of an amp have you tried tuning that side off if you can? This is to see if it really makes a difference. Better yet turn off all of the other amps and leave only the Sub amp up.
You said that - “But last night, we hired a sound engineer to come in and run sound for us during a service. He got there early and we went through a full sound-check. As he went through the drums, he noticed that the kick just didn't sound right. We moved the mic around and it sounded better, but he wasn't getting the sound that it should have.”
I would say if he knew of this problem and brought him in to deal with it he wasn’t there early enough to troubleshoot that problem. Or he doesn’t have the skills that you need to figure this out.
Does the kick drum have a hole in the head? Where is the mic placed on the kick? Do you have any pictures that you can post that will answer this and just the general setup of the speakers?
If this system isn’t setup with Aux fed subs it might help to change it to that type of setup. I know some people don’t like a system setup that way and it can lead to sub abuse. But it can help in a lot of cases if you only put in the sub what you want reproduced by the sub.
If the main speakers aren’t crossed over to eliminate the frequency range that the subs are supposed to reproduce, they can interfere and cancel some of the sub frequencies. Some of the tests I recommended will answer some of these questions.
I'm going to reply in the order that you posted your questions/comments:
Playback of tracks sound really good to me. Although I haven't paid direct attention to the kick. I will do that. But the bass overall sounds great. Even during a live service, the bass sound so good.
Our system was installed in November. I am in charge of everything sound/music related. But I'm on stage also, so I never get much time at FOH, unless we have a visiting church or group or something. The installers did not explain the setup at all. Barely got any training on the board. I've had to learn everything myself, as I am doing now. I sent them a nice but firm email a few months ago about how I feel about their lack of customer support and training. I was very nice and respectful, but they didn't take it too well, so a call to them would be very difficult.
I have not tried muting. Our bass player has an amp on stage, but it's barely turn up. But I see what you are saying: If I mute the bass guitar, his sound should go away, correct?
We have an amp for the two main CDD112 speakers (Dynacord C1300FDI-US). We have another amp for our four EV ZLX montors (Dynacord C1800FDI-US). And we have another amp for our one CSX212 sub (Dynacord C1800FDI-US).
I've not tried turning any of the amps off. If I turn off all amps and leave the sub amp on, what should I do? Go play a track through the system? Or have my band play?
I'm pretty sure they guy we brought in doesn't have the skills to figure out exactly what the problem is.
The kick drum does have a hole. We played with different positions on the mic. If we pulled the mic out towards or past the hole, we got a lot of wind noise. So right now, it's setting just inside the hole and facing at an angle. It sounds a lot better than it did. But we still just don't have a nice thump in the chest. And according to some other posts on this thread, maybe my sub is not big enough to give me that thump in the chest feeling. (Wish I had knew that before we went with this sub.)
Surely the installers knew to put a crossover on the system. I'd say they did. But like I said, I don't know how to check for sure.
Thanks for all of your questions and input.
Post by: Don T. Williams on May 09, 2018, 01:32:29 PM
Post by: Peter Kowalczyk on May 09, 2018, 02:25:48 PM
You asked how to tell if your subs are on an aux. Others have some good ideas here, but I'd take the approach of tracing the signal backwards through the system.
- What physical output feeds the subwoofer amp?
- What mixer bus feeds that physical output?
- What signals are assigned to that bus?
*If the main L/R bus feeds the subwoofer output, then your subs are not on an aux. In this case, I'd look into the system processing settings.
*If any other bus feeds the subwoofer output, then your subs are 'on an aux' (even if it's not technically an aux bus). In X32-land, I use the mixer's 'MONO' bus to drive my subwoofer send. Or, it could actually be an Aux bus, just like a monitor send. The key here is that any signal needs to be assigned to that bus to be sent to the subwoofer, so make sure your kick channel is sent here.
You mentioned that the system installer gave you nothing in the way of training, and didn't respond well to your polite but firm inquiry about post-installation service and support. That is a HUGE red flag. System design and installation is a customer support business. Can you move up the food chain and talk to someone higher up in that organization? Assuming you paid real money for their service and it wasn't a parishioner's buddy who did the job as a favor, they should be bending over backwards to ensure that their design is meeting your needs. If they can't, I'd be looking for someone else who can.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 09, 2018, 02:56:36 PM
Other people have been asking me if my sub is on an aux. How do I find out whether it is or not?
Uh... SMH
I'd think the system installer would have labeled the connection but who knows? There's enough "not quite there" stuff about this system to question almost everything.
Look at the back of the mixer or remote stage box (if you have one). Trace the OUTPUT connections and see where the wires go. If you have an analog copper snake, look at the wire number (printed on the heat shrink tubing near the snake's connectors), then go to the stage or where ever the snake head is, find that wire number on the box (or it could be a letter - A, B, C etc) and physically follow the wire to the amp rack. Do this for EVERY output connection from the console/snake/digi box... Make a drawing or at least a list of where things go.
If the system is in stereo you'll have 2 wires going to the amplifier(s) that power the top boxes. You'll probably have a few more wires that go to stage monitors or IEM system, any assisted listening system, etc.
An easier way might be to start at the subwoofer amp and trace the wire back to where ever it comes from. There are 3 possibilities: the input to the subwoofer amp comes from snake/console/digi box and is either Y'd to the top box amps or uses a pass thru or loop thru connection on the sub amp to feed the top box amps; the input to the subwoofer amp comes from a Y or loop thru connection from the top box amps; or the input to the subwoofer amp comes from another channel in the snake/digi box/console output.
Or you could just call up the installer and ask?
Which brings me to a final point - all of these questions and problems should be brought to the installing contractor. Your church (as an institution) has system issues that should be addressed by the company/person that sold you this installation. You should not need to *repeatedly* come to these forums for the help the church has already paid for.
Post by: Hanno Meingast on May 10, 2018, 03:04:40 PM
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Post by: Scott Olewiler on May 11, 2018, 12:49:44 PM
That will narrow it down to the channel itself, although most likely still a routing issue.
Post by: Don T. Williams on May 11, 2018, 03:56:38 PM
I didn't see that nayone has suggested this, but have you tried plugging the kick into another channel, like maybe the one the bass is in now and see what happens?
That will narrow it down to the channel itself, although most likely still a routing issue.
Great suggestion! Sometimes the simplest ideas get overlooked.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 11, 2018, 04:11:11 PM
I didn't see that nayone has suggested this, but have you tried plugging the kick into another channel, like maybe the one the bass is in now and see what happens?
That will narrow it down to the channel itself, although most likely still a routing issue.
As it is unlikely that only 1 channel of a mixer will fail (even in the old days the input preamp IC was dual channel) it's possible that the physical XLR connector has a cold or cracked solder joint. Very unlikely but still possible and takes little time to check.
If there were only a LABster near Issac I think this could be sussed out in a few minutes. There are too many moving parts for his experience level to happen quickly otherwise. That said, his church is indirectly providing him a whole bunch of experience!
Post by: David Winners on May 11, 2018, 04:58:19 PM
Post by: Isaac South on May 12, 2018, 10:41:29 AM
As it is unlikely that only 1 channel of a mixer will fail (even in the old days the input preamp IC was dual channel) it's possible that the physical XLR connector has a cold or cracked solder joint. Very unlikely but still possible and takes little time to check.
If there were only a LABster near Issac I think this could be sussed out in a few minutes. There are too many moving parts for his experience level to happen quickly otherwise. That said, his church is indirectly providing him a whole bunch of experience!
Haha Tim, that’s the exact perspective I try to have with it all. We are in a small town, so there’s not many resources close to us. But we have some quite decent music for our size. You guys on here have helped me more than you realize. I’m very thankful.
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Post by: Isaac South on May 12, 2018, 10:42:41 AM
I'm headed to Nashville in a couple weeks. I will be driving through Central Kentucky. If it's not too far out of the way (the wife will be with me), I'd be willing to stop by and check things out.
David - That would be amazing. I’m sending you a PM.
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Post by: David Winners on May 13, 2018, 09:11:06 AM
David - That would be amazing. I’m sending you a PM.
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Got it. I'll let you know if we can work it in to the trip.
Post by: Isaac South on June 24, 2018, 11:18:46 PM
Anyways, me and my right hand man went behind the stage to where our rack stuff is and we were going to trace the cable from there to the sub just to make sure it was plugged in correctly and make sure a mouse hadn’t eaten through it or something.
But when we got back there we had no idea where to even find the cable that goes to the sub. Once again, our installers left us with no explanation and no training on anything. Not blaming them, just giving my reason for ignorance.
I took some pics of the rack. Can someone help us figure out which of these cables would be for the sub? I know the top two are for monitor mix 1 and 2. And the L and R cables are for the LR mains. But where is he sub cable? Let me know if these pics don’t work. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180625/584abcbacf031c20b6c2b7f4efffa661.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180625/91f6b109ac39d134ebf140e9d8eb69e6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180625/37a690212cd36c538b49056c1a023f6c.jpg)
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Post by: Mark Cadwallader on June 24, 2018, 11:54:33 PM
Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 25, 2018, 12:01:39 AM
Do you have two stage wedge monitor mixers, the cables plugged into outputs 1 & 2 make me think so.
Outputs 11 and 12 look there your main Left Right outputs, you could unplug one at a time and see the main speakers go out one side at a time and at the same time check and see if the subs go out when you unplug outputs 11 & 12, if they do your subs are not on an aux.
The Dynacord amps in the bottom of the rack all have DSP /crossover processing built in, maybe they have not been properly set up......or all of us here have seen many times where an installer never set up a DSP and it's just passing signal straight through.
With the three amps I'm going to guess one is for stage monitors, follow the cables from outputs 1 & 2, I bet they go to an amp.
The other two amps are for the main system, but they could be done a couple differnt ways. One amp runs the Left Right mains and the other on the subs or one channel of the amps run the mains and the other runs the subs.
Take a picture of the back of the rack.
I'm guessing your IEM transmitters are being fed from the Allen Heath ME1 monitor stations.
Are there any cables connected to the outputs on the back of the mixer?
As for the installer you should be blaming them for their lack of system training.
Were you with the church when this install was finished or did you come in sometime afterwards?
Post by: Isaac South on June 25, 2018, 01:07:11 PM
It does not look like you have an aux-fed sub channel. Channels 11 and 12 (out) are your main L and R channels. Those two channels are processed to create a crossover for the subs and the tops. My guess is that the crossover functions are handled by the amplifiers, as suggested earlier by Tim.
I'm beginning to see that. It makes sense.
Post by: Isaac South on June 25, 2018, 02:06:05 PM
In this case a picture is not worth a thousand words!!
Do you have two stage wedge monitor mixers, the cables plugged into outputs 1 & 2 make me think so.
Outputs 11 and 12 look there your main Left Right outputs, you could unplug one at a time and see the main speakers go out one side at a time and at the same time check and see if the subs go out when you unplug outputs 11 & 12, if they do your subs are not on an aux.
The Dynacord amps in the bottom of the rack all have DSP /crossover processing built in, maybe they have not been properly set up......or all of us here have seen many times where an installer never set up a DSP and it's just passing signal straight through.
With the three amps I'm going to guess one is for stage monitors, follow the cables from outputs 1 & 2, I bet they go to an amp.
The other two amps are for the main system, but they could be done a couple differnt ways. One amp runs the Left Right mains and the other on the subs or one channel of the amps run the mains and the other runs the subs.
Take a picture of the back of the rack.
I'm guessing your IEM transmitters are being fed from the Allen Heath ME1 monitor stations.
Are there any cables connected to the outputs on the back of the mixer?
As for the installer you should be blaming them for their lack of system training.
Were you with the church when this install was finished or did you come in sometime afterwards?
Yes, we have two monitor mixes on our stage. We have a stage box with "mix 1" on the front (downstage) of our stage. Then, we have another stage box at the back of the stage with "mix 2" for some other monitor wedges. We don't currently use mix2. We don't have any wedges back there. But it's there just in case, I suppose.
For the amps, the install team said they did DSP in them. But I'm not experienced enough to know where to look for it at in the amp.
Based on their quote, one of the CF1800 amps is for the sub. Another CF1800 is for the monitors. And the C1300 is for the mains.
I will take a pic of the back of the rack tonight (if I don't forget).
Yes, we have ME-1 IEM units on stage. 4 of them.
I'm not sure about the back of the mixer. Seems like it's just the local channels (wireless mics, etc). But I'll check tonight.
I was with the church during the install. I realize some of this is my fault. Hindsight is 20/20. Once again, not trying to use that as an excuse. Just saying....if I knew then what I know now...
Thanks for any input/help you can offer.
Post by: Magnus Högkvist on June 26, 2018, 08:23:19 AM
Based on their quote, one of the CF1800 amps is for the sub.
It's only one sub? Is the C1800F amp in bridge mode? Otherwise You would be feeding the sub 950 W in 4 ohms when Martin i specifying 3000 W. Bridge mode would do 2800 according to specs.
Post by: Isaac South on June 28, 2018, 08:08:14 AM
Magnus - I still cannot determine if the sub amp is in bridged mode or not. Do these pics help? (note: the two C1800 amps are the bottom two amps).
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180628/42abce55106dfb37b42cbe18e8432e1d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180628/4335d32db608bd1175adc95d9cd1d179.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180628/61586b868454996aa6b7fb1c5187a81d.jpg)
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Post by: David Winners on June 28, 2018, 08:16:36 AM
I hope you get things sorted.
Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 28, 2018, 08:58:26 AM
The top amp is is running the sub, it's output is wire for bridged mono operation. The questions are, is the amp actually set up for bridged mono, is the crossover properly configured for sub use and what is the sub actually being driven from. The outputs on your AR2412 stage box are fully configurable/patchable, you need to go into the IO patch menu and see how outputs 11 and 12 are patched.
The middle amp is running the mains. The outputs are wired stereo, with only a single input cable so the amp needs to be in a Y input mode not bridged mono and should have proper crossover filtering set up. Again you need to see what output from the mixer is driving the amp via the AR2412 stage box.
The bottom amp is running the two monitor mixes based on the stereo outputs and the two inputs. The amp should be set up for stereo operation, high pass filtering in place and most likely being driven from mixes 1 and 2 from the Ar2412 stage box.
Above was my first thought, there could be a couple other options just to make it interesting.
The top is still the sub amp, the middle amp is the monitors and you only have one monitor mix feeding two monitor locations and the bottom amp is the mains wired and operation in stereo.
The top amp is monitors, still one mix with the amp operating in bridged mono, the middle amp is subs with the single input feeding two outputs (how many sub cabinets do you have?) The bottom amp is stereo mains.
Follow the cables from the amp inputs back up to the stage box to see where they actually connect and then with some music playing through the system disconnect the cables one at a time and see what speakers turn off, let us know. Also hook up the monitors and put music in the monitors and do the same cable unplugging test.
Again you need to check the IO patch menu and see what is routed to where on the AR2412 outputs.
What do the front displays on the amps say.
Also I don't know why they used all the XLR Y cables to feed the stereo inputs on the IEM transmitters and not just put them in mono operation. However they may be or may have tried to take the stereo output from your ME1's and maintain stereo to the IEM transmitters, if that is the case it would take some special cable wiring within those Y cables to do that......based on the rest of this install history I'm guessing they did not do that!
Post by: Jesse Vaughn on June 28, 2018, 09:08:58 AM
My take on the amp wiring based on the pictures from the back of the rack are...
The top amp is is running the sub, it's output is wire for bridged mono operation. The questions are, is the amp actually set up for bridged mono, is the crossover properly configured for sub use and what is the sub actually being driven from. The outputs on your AR2412 stage box are fully configurable/patchable, you need to go into the IO patch menu and see how outputs 11 and 12 are patched.
The middle amp is running the mains. The outputs are wired stereo, with only a single input cable so the amp needs to be in a Y input mode not bridged mono and should have proper crossover filtering set up. Again you need to see what output from the mixer is driving the amp via the AR2412 stage box.
The bottom amp is running the two monitor mixes based on the stereo outputs and the two inputs. The amp should be set up for stereo operation, high pass filtering in place and most likely being driven from mixes 1 and 2 from the Ar2412 stage box.
Above was my first thought, there could be a couple other options just to make it interesting.
The top is still the sub amp, the middle amp is the monitors and you only have one monitor mix feeding two monitor locations and the bottom amp is the mains wired and operation in stereo.
The top amp is monitors, still one mix with the amp operating in bridged mono, the middle amp is subs with the single input feeding two outputs (how many sub cabinets do you have?) The bottom amp is stereo mains.
Follow the cables from the amp inputs back up to the stage box to see where they actually connect and then with some music playing through the system disconnect the cables one at a time and see what speakers turn off, let us know. Also hook up the monitors and put music in the monitors and do the same cable unplugging test.
Again you need to check the IO patch menu and see what is routed to where on the AR2412 outputs.
It looks to me like the output cables are labeled for the middle (L/R) and bottom (MON1/MON2) amps.
Unless he has been working only from a file made by the installer then output 11 and 12 should default to L/R. Easily testable by playing back music and panning the channel to see if the sub level changes vs the tops.
Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 28, 2018, 09:16:19 AM
It looks to me like the output cables are labeled for the middle (L/R) and bottom (MON1/MON2) amps.
Unless he has been working only from a file made by the installer then output 11 and 12 should default to L/R. Easily testable by playing back music and panning the channel to see if the sub level changes vs the tops.
I just added to my post some more thoughts.
My guess as well is the default output patching is what is being used.
I think this is case where the installers knew just enough to be dangerous.
Post by: Rob Spence on June 28, 2018, 10:25:39 AM
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Post by: Rob Spence on June 28, 2018, 10:26:43 AM
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Post by: Chris Grimshaw on June 29, 2018, 12:28:18 PM
Second amp only has one input connected, which isn't right for this setup. (2 tops, 2 mons, 1 sub)
Sharing Ch31 with the line and XLR input isn't good practice, and I'd change that anyway.
Chris
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on June 29, 2018, 03:26:04 PM
Output wiring on the top amp isn't bridged. Should be white to Ch1 + and black to Ch2+.
Second amp only has one input connected, which isn't right for this setup. (2 tops, 2 mons, 1 sub)
Sharing Ch31 with the line and XLR input isn't good practice, and I'd change that anyway.
Chris
Chris the 2 tops might be run parallel on the middle amp. I would guess that the one side of the left and right output of the mixer is feeding the tops and the other side is feeding the sub.
I couldn't see clear enough in the picture how the sub is wired to see that mistake, good catch. I had to download the manual for the amp to see how they have the output connector configured. I am used to working on amps that have the "-" terminals in the middle and the "+" terminals on the outside. These amps are different.
So Issac what he is saying is move the black speaker wire from the "B -" to the "B +" on the top amp.
The connectors just pop out and then unscrew the Black wire and move it over and screw it down in the connector and plug the connector back into the amp.
But the fact that you say that playback sounds good this may not be your only problem.
Post by: Isaac South on June 29, 2018, 03:50:15 PM
Chris and Kevin - WOW. I am shocked. Did they really hookup the amp incorrectly? Are we sure that the top amp is for the sub? Maybe I should try some playback and unplugging the cables first, to ensure that the top amp is, in fact, the sub amp (as suggested by Mike Caldwell). Thoughts?
Post by: Jesse Vaughn on June 29, 2018, 04:02:23 PM
Rob and Chris - Thank you for pointing out the problem on Ch31. That was completely an oversight on my part. I will fix it immediately.
Chris and Kevin - WOW. I am shocked. Did they really hookup the amp incorrectly? Are we sure that the top amp is for the sub? Maybe I should try some playback and unplugging the cables first, to ensure that the top amp is, in fact, the sub amp (as suggested by Mike Caldwell). Thoughts?
A simpler way to test this would be to playback tracks with only one amp powered on at a time.
Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 30, 2018, 01:54:28 AM
Output wiring on the top amp isn't bridged. Should be white to Ch1 + and black to Ch2+.
Second amp only has one input connected, which isn't right for this setup. (2 tops, 2 mons, 1 sub)
Sharing Ch31 with the line and XLR input isn't good practice, and I'd change that anyway.
Chris
I know it doesn't look correct but for those Dynacord amps in bridged mode you connect to Ch.1 + and Ch. 2 -
The first time I used one I had to do a double take!!
The middle amp could be in Y input mode.
You may be getting to point of needing to bring in qualified tech to go through your entire system.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on June 30, 2018, 03:11:17 AM
I know it doesn't look correct but for those Dynacord amps in bridged mode you connect to Ch.1 + and Ch. 2 -
The first time I used one I had to do a double take!!
The middle amp could be in Y input mode.
You may be getting to point of needing to bring in qualified tech to go through your entire system.
How very unconventional. I can't see any reason they'd actually do that, though. Do they drive the negative output of channel 2, and leave the positive output grounded?
Quick way to test is grab a meter, and look for continuity between the terminals - conventionally, Ch1- and Ch2- would be linked to ground, but this amp may have Ch1- and Ch2+ grounded.
Chris
Post by: Steve Mason on June 30, 2018, 05:01:16 AM
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on June 30, 2018, 08:56:46 AM
I know it doesn't look correct but for those Dynacord amps in bridged mode you connect to Ch.1 + and Ch. 2 -
The first time I used one I had to do a double take!!
The middle amp could be in Y input mode.
You may be getting to point of needing to bring in qualified tech to go through your entire system.
I am sorry for the misinformation!!! :-[ :-[ :-[
That is the first time I have ever seen that way of wiring an amp for bridge Mono.
Issac, I don't know if you saw what I said as to how this is probably configured. I think that the main speakers are being feed from one side of the L/R and the Sub is being feed from the other side of the L/R. If you have a stereo playback input, if you pan it all the way to one side you might hear just the sub and to the other side you might hear just the mains. I say might because they may have mono-ed it all out somewhere on the mixer. If it isn't then anything panned would be messed up. You will only be getting one side to your mains and one to your sub.
Post by: Isaac South on June 30, 2018, 09:46:42 AM
I am sorry for the misinformation!!!
That is the first time I have ever seen that way of wiring an amp for bridge Mono.
Issac, I don't know if you saw what I said as to how this is probably configured. I think that the main speakers are being feed from one side of the L/R and the Sub is being feed from the other side of the L/R. If you have a stereo playback input, if you pan it all the way to one side you might hear just the sub and to the other side you might hear just the mains. I say might because they may have mono-ed it all out somewhere on the mixer. If it isn't then anything panned would be messed up. You will only be getting one side to your mains and one to your sub.
Thank you everyone for clearing up the amp issue. Had me panicked for a second. Ha
Kevin - I’m sure you’re explaining it well, it’s just hard for me to understand. So one side of one of the amps is feeding the mains and the other side of the same amp is feeding the sub? Is this what you are saying?
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Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 30, 2018, 10:36:23 AM
Thank you everyone for clearing up the amp issue. Had me panicked for a second. Ha
Kevin - I’m sure you’re explaining it well, it’s just hard for me to understand. So one side of one of the amps is feeding the mains and the other side of the same amp is feeding the sub? Is this what you are saying?
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No. Kevin is saying that the Left console output may (note conditional wording here) drive the mains in mono and the Right console output drives the subs, or vice versa.
I'm confused as to why your church hasn't had the installation contractor back out to THOROUGHLY document the signal flow and demonstrate how the rig works. I think other than receiving the equipment, y'all got screwed.
Post by: Isaac South on June 30, 2018, 11:30:20 AM
No. Kevin is saying that the Left console output may (note conditional wording here) drive the mains in mono and the Right console output drives the subs, or vice versa.
I'm confused as to why your church hasn't had the installation contractor back out to THOROUGHLY document the signal flow and demonstrate how the rig works. I think other than receiving the equipment, y'all got screwed.
Ahhh. That makes sense. So when you say L and R you are talking about the L and R on the front of the AR2412. And those two cables go to the mixer. And (possibly) one of those cable is feeding the mains and the other cable is feeding the sub. Correct?
My next question is: is that the way it SHOULD be routed? Or is there a better option?
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Post by: Kevin Maxwell on June 30, 2018, 11:47:49 AM
Ahhh. That makes sense. So when you say L and R you are talking about the L and R on the front of the AR2412. And those two cables go to the mixer. And (possibly) one of those cable is feeding the mains and the other cable is feeding the sub. Correct?
My next question is: is that the way it SHOULD be routed? Or is there a better option?
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If you really want the kick drum to have more impact there may be a better way. But first you REALLY need to understand how it is set up now and how it is working.
Post by: Wes Garland on June 30, 2018, 01:03:09 PM
Post by: Rob Spence on June 30, 2018, 01:57:37 PM
Ahhh. That makes sense. So when you say L and R you are talking about the L and R on the front of the AR2412. And those two cables go to the mixer. And (possibly) one of those cable is feeding the mains and the other cable is feeding the sub. Correct?
My next question is: is that the way it SHOULD be routed? Or is there a better option?
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Not exactly
The output of the AR2412 is #11 & 12 (might be labeled by you or the installer as L or R) which default to being patched internally to the mixer to the Left & Right output buses.
We are guessing that AR2412 out #11 is cabled to the input of one of the top 2 amps and #12 is cabled to the other.
We also guess that outputs #1 & #2 are cabled to the two inputs of the bottom amp.
Note, these are all guesses until the OP verifies the cabling.
He should be making a drawing and documenting the facts as they are learned.
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Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 30, 2018, 04:46:19 PM
No. Kevin is saying that the Left console output may (note conditional wording here) drive the mains in mono and the Right console output drives the subs, or vice versa.
I'm confused as to why your church hasn't had the installation contractor back out to THOROUGHLY document the signal flow and demonstrate how the rig works. I think other than receiving the equipment, y'all got screwed.
To be honest yes they got screwed on the service, set up, programing of the installation. It's time to call in a pro who actually knows what's going on to go through your system end to end and straighten it out. Calling the same people back in who installed it like that in the first place would be a waste of time, they didn't know what they doing the first time and my guess is they still don't know how to do it right.
Post by: Isaac South on June 30, 2018, 04:48:15 PM
Not exactly
The output of the AR2412 is #11 & 12 (might be labeled by you or the installer as L or R) which default to being patched internally to the mixer to the Left & Right output buses.
We are guessing that AR2412 out #11 is cabled to the input of one of the top 2 amps and #12 is cabled to the other.
We also guess that outputs #1 & #2 are cabled to the two inputs of the bottom amp.
Note, these are all guesses until the OP verifies the cabling.
He should be making a drawing and documenting the facts as they are learned.
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Understood, Rob. I plan to trace all the cabling and make a diagram.
Rob and Wes - I am the OP. (Isaac South). That’s me.
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Post by: Isaac South on July 01, 2018, 02:54:06 PM
Chris, can you post a picture of the channel strip that the kick drum is on?
Wes - here are the pics of the kick channel and processing. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180701/cc8546694979443cd2fa7d8b423f0f4f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180701/d242ed9b2c918886a3c2615a94d9546f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180701/980ce8f9e1b8c4a5eebdd54c9211a8e8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180701/ccb85a5ff14cab265a699304b0e6ccc3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180701/0d3430e74f6cba33a8604efec61d6f01.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180701/624547445bf04311abb8dd0901599baf.jpg)
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Post by: John Ferreira on July 01, 2018, 03:52:46 PM
If you say the bass guitar sounds fine, try plugging the kick on that channel.
Then also try to plug the bass guitar on the kick channel, and see if it still sounds good.
John
Post by: Justin Perrachon on July 01, 2018, 04:35:10 PM
Also temporarily remove the gate to see if it's closing too fast and only letting mostly transient attack through.
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Post by: Steve Garris on July 01, 2018, 08:23:43 PM
The lower two bands on the channel eq could likely be a contributing factor. Boosting in the 50 to 60hz range could be done to add low end thump and cutting around 150hz - 400hz to reduce boxy low mids. Your channel is doing the opposite.
Also temporarily remove the gate to see if it's closing too fast and only letting mostly transient attack through.
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Wow - that's immediately what I thought after looking at that graph. A very unusual EQ for a kick drum.
Post by: Wes Garland on July 05, 2018, 07:54:15 PM
This is why I wanted to see the whole channel strip (forgot it was digital - thanks for being thorough) - your description, to me, sounded like the drum was missing its fundamental. Your HPF is fine, but the 4dB cut is very close to where I would expect to find the drum's fundamental. I would normally boost about 5dB where you have cut 4dB.
Post by: David Winners on July 05, 2018, 08:10:19 PM
Post by: Isaac South on July 05, 2018, 08:23:39 PM
That's a fairly different EQ from I would use on a kick drum, but that doesn't mean its wrong....but humour me and bypass the EQ? I bet it will be an improvement.
This is why I wanted to see the whole channel strip (forgot it was digital - thanks for being thorough) - your description, to me, sounded like the drum was missing its fundamental. Your HPF is fine, but the 4dB cut is very close to where I would expect to find the drum's fundamental. I would normally boost about 5dB where you have cut 4dB.
Thank you, Wes. Tbh, I literally know nothing about how to EQ a kick drum. I’m not even sure how it got set that way to begin with. Remember, I’m the “best” (not saying much) FOH Guy we have and I’m on stage every service. Ha.
I’ve already made the changes that you suggested and I’m just waiting on some available time to meet with the drummer and see how it sounds.
Is there a typical guideline you use for kick eq? Obviously boost 50 to 100 based on your post. And per another person above (can’t see it right now), I’m guessing cut 150-400 range? I realize all of this is dependent upon many factors. But I’d be interested in learning some starting-points.
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Post by: Isaac South on July 05, 2018, 08:24:49 PM
And I would suggest you remove/disable the gate to see if the threshold is set too high.
David - I removed the gate. That made sense to me that it could hinder the sound. I’ll let you know my results.
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Post by: Jay Barracato on July 05, 2018, 08:32:11 PM
Thank you, Wes. Tbh, I literally know nothing about how to EQ a kick drum. I’m not even sure how it got set that way to begin with. Remember, I’m the “best” (not saying much) FOH Guy we have and I’m on stage every service. Ha.Here's one of mine, I do have this b52 backed up by another mic for the click region.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180706/68a7592d1ec09e65741b141e4ee4caa4.jpg)
I’ve already made the changes that you suggested and I’m just waiting on some available time to meet with the drummer and see how it sounds.
Is there a typical guideline you use for kick eq? Obviously boost 50 to 100 based on your post. And per another person above (can’t see it right now), I’m guessing cut 150-400 range? I realize all of this is dependent upon many factors. But I’d be interested in learning some starting-points.
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Post by: Wes Garland on July 05, 2018, 09:51:28 PM
First, set your EQ up flat, except for that high-pass filter you have down at 26.5Hz.
Next, get your drummer to play slow, even, notes for several minutes will you fiddle with the board. Bring his channel up until it sounds basically like a drum and is moderately loud.
Then set your EQ up like this:
(https://i0.wp.com/nemosyn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/kick-eq.png)
(That's an X32, but same idea). I would make the filter around 3kHz a little narrower, maybe.
The drum should sound better now. Next, start with the low frequency and move your finger back and forth a bit 'till it sounds good. Then do the others. The low one controls how full the drum is, the middle is how boxy it sounds, the high one how much click you hear when the beater his the head. You want definition to the kick sound, not just flub flub, that is what the high frequency does.
If the drum riiiiiiings, try sticking some pillows in it. You might also play with mic position. I like to aim mine through the kick port just below where the beater hits. This gets me close to the sound I am looking for.
Good luck. I am still learning how to EQ drums, but I'm way better at it than I used to be. :D One thing I have done is recorded my shows, so I can play with the EQs afterwards on my own time.
Wes
Post by: Isaac South on July 06, 2018, 09:44:17 AM
Here's one of mine, I do have this b52 backed up by another mic for the click region.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180706/68a7592d1ec09e65741b141e4ee4caa4.jpg)
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Thank you for sharing, Jay. Mine was completely opposite from this. haha. I'm already learning so much thanks to you guys.
Post by: Isaac South on July 06, 2018, 09:46:01 AM
Isaac - I'm not the most experienced guy in the room, but here's what I think you should do..
First, set your EQ up flat, except for that high-pass filter you have down at 26.5Hz.
Next, get your drummer to play slow, even, notes for several minutes will you fiddle with the board. Bring his channel up until it sounds basically like a drum and is moderately loud.
Then set your EQ up like this:
(https://i0.wp.com/nemosyn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/kick-eq.png)
(That's an X32, but same idea). I would make the filter around 3kHz a little narrower, maybe.
The drum should sound better now. Next, start with the low frequency and move your finger back and forth a bit 'till it sounds good. Then do the others. The low one controls how full the drum is, the middle is how boxy it sounds, the high one how much click you hear when the beater his the head. You want definition to the kick sound, not just flub flub, that is what the high frequency does.
If the drum riiiiiiings, try sticking some pillows in it. You might also play with mic position. I like to aim mine through the kick port just below where the beater hits. This gets me close to the sound I am looking for.
Good luck. I am still learning how to EQ drums, but I'm way better at it than I used to be. :D One thing I have done is recorded my shows, so I can play with the EQs afterwards on my own time.
Wes
Thank you, Wes. This is great info. I will definitely try this. Mic placement is probably an additional problem I'm having. So you're saying you point the mic toward the bottom-half of the batter head of the kick drum? Mine is barely inside the hole, pointing directly at the beater.
Post by: Rob Spence on July 06, 2018, 12:09:24 PM
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Post by: Isaac South on July 06, 2018, 01:09:24 PM
One good thing with the 300 hZ cut is that it makes some sonic space for the Bass guitar.
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I've been really studying, practicing, and learning sound in the last couple of years. And the biggest thing I've learned, I think, is that each instrument or singer must have it's own space in the sound. That's been one of the biggest revelations for me.
Post by: Isaac South on July 08, 2018, 11:13:39 PM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wbhdmjqidt8pach/IMG_5934.MOV?dl=0
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Post by: John Ferreira on July 08, 2018, 11:16:46 PM
Well, I’m pretty confident we have a blown subwoofer. I took a video. I’m trying to attach my Dropbox link to it. Hopefully this work. The drummer is playing the kick. I un-mute the kick channel and you can hear what it sounds like. Let me know if the link doesn’t work.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wbhdmjqidt8pach/IMG_5934.MOV?dl=0
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Hard to tell how much volume or EQ are you using, but under normal gain, yes it sounds blown. Does it do that at lower volumes?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on July 09, 2018, 03:27:11 AM
I've been really studying, practicing, and learning sound in the last couple of years. And the biggest thing I've learned, I think, is that each instrument or singer must have it's own space in the sound. That's been one of the biggest revelations for me.
IMO, that should first and foremost be applied to the arrangement of the music - If we've got 17 electric guitars, it's going to be difficult to tell them all apart no matter what happens at the desk.
I often see the guys on a certain studio-related forum talking about how they'll carve up the EQ of some instruments in order to "make room" for others, and to me that seems crazy. If you're screwing up the sound of one thing just to make sure the other can be heard, isn't it time to stop and choose one of them? That's assuming that all opportunities of panning them differently etc have all been exhausted, too.
It gets worse when they talk about the relationship between bass guitar and kick drum - they make one "deep" and the other "punchy". Why not bypass some compressors, and let the kick drum come through as a transient that comes above the level of the bass guitar?
Sorry about the rant. I really find the excessive processing in modern music very annoying.
Chris
Post by: Art Welter on July 09, 2018, 04:14:01 AM
Well, I’m pretty confident we have a blown subwoofer. I took a video. I’m trying to attach my Dropbox link to it. Hopefully this work. The drummer is playing the kick. I un-mute the kick channel and you can hear what it sounds like. Let me know if the link doesn’t work.Link works, sub doesn't, after two months and over 100 posts :^).
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wbhdmjqidt8pach/IMG_5934.MOV?dl=0
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Sounds like dragging coils, likely sloughed off due to overheating, or smashed from over-excursion.
Confirm by isolating the amp as suggested in #75, and test it properly with a swept sine wave as suggested back in post #38.
Probably looking at re-coning both drivers, considering the acoustic drum sound had more LF output than the sub..
Art
Post by: Isaac South on July 09, 2018, 02:56:08 PM
Link works, sub doesn't, after two months and over 100 posts :^).
Sounds like dragging coils, likely sloughed off due to overheating, or smashed from over-excursion.
Confirm by isolating the amp as suggested in #75, and test it properly with a swept sine wave as suggested back in post #38.
Probably looking at re-coning both drivers, considering the acoustic drum sound had more LF output than the sub..
Art
How does that happen? We do worship and gospel music. We don't play over 90db. No EDM. Even the tracks we rarely play aren't played loud enough to blow this sub. The sub is in a cavity in the stage. But there's breathing room behind it. Just for learning purposes, I'd like to know how something like this happens. Or maybe it came this way from the factory and we never noticed...
Post by: Thomas Harkin on July 09, 2018, 03:14:44 PM
Just for learning purposes, I'd like to know how something like this happens.
I've heard of janitors playing music on the auditorium system, in the middle of the night, loud enough that they could hear the music in the rest of the building!
Needless to say, there were blown speakers involved!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 09, 2018, 05:44:46 PM
I've heard of janitors playing music on the auditorium system, in the middle of the night, loud enough that they could hear the music in the rest of the building!
Needless to say, there were blown speakers involved!
That happened in a small club install I did with my own gear. The cleaning guy figured out how to power up the booth and shredded cones followed. The dance floor area was in another room (double door passage) and he'd crank it up until he could hear it at the other end of the club.
Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 09, 2018, 09:53:10 PM
How does that happen? We do worship and gospel music. We don't play over 90db. No EDM. Even the tracks we rarely play aren't played loud enough to blow this sub. The sub is in a cavity in the stage. But there's breathing room behind it. Just for learning purposes, I'd like to know how something like this happens. Or maybe it came this way from the factory and we never noticed...
Could be many combinations of reasons, as mentioned un-supervised system use and abuse, no high pass filtering, maybe the incorrect filter/crossover set up that made you overdrive the system low end while not producing any real low end you still burned up the
speakers.
This post started back on May 7th not sure how long the issue was going on before that. You stuck with it for over two months now trying to get this this resolved for your church and that's good but all this time your church has had a crippled sound system and still does.
I'm going to boldly say with in a couple hours any competent audio service tech would have have gone through your system layout, found the blown woofers, made any needed changes to hopefully prevent or at least make it harder to blow up the next time.
Now is the time to bring in that person, do not just replace the woofers and move on, If you do chances are you'll be doing it again in a couple months.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 10, 2018, 12:55:36 AM
Could be many combinations of reasons, as mentioned un-supervised system use and abuse, no high pass filtering, maybe the incorrect filter/crossover set up that made you overdrive the system low end while not producing any real low end you still burned up the
speakers.
This post started back on May 7th not sure how long the issue was going on before that. You stuck with it for over two months now trying to get this this resolved for your church and that's good but all this time your church has had a crippled sound system and still does.
I'm going to boldly say with in a couple hours any competent audio service tech would have have gone through your system layout, found the blown woofers, made any needed changes to hopefully prevent or at least make it harder to blow up the next time.
Now is the time to bring in that person, do not just replace the woofers and move on, If you do chances are you'll be doing it again in a couple months.
I am still not convinced. Did you turn off all the amps but the sub amp? Did you play the sine waves as suggested.
Isaac, you are one of the nicest guys here but it seems that applying the advice (and you have gotten a boat load to sort through) is a bit challenging to you. You are struggling with the basics of EQ still. Getting a pro to look at this is a must. I think if someone showed you how to EQ and adjust compression it would be worth more that the a million words.
Didn't a labster offer to stop by for some help? Did that interaction ever happen?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on July 10, 2018, 03:33:22 AM
Chris
Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 10, 2018, 08:11:01 AM
Question - is the audio in the video reasonably accurate to what you're hearing when in front of the speakers?
Chris
I kind of wondered that to, with everything it sounds like was going in the room you didn't
really have the best conditions for trouble shooting a problem.
Blown speakers or not, it's time to bring in a competent tech.
Also lets keep in mind you only have a single double 12 direct radiator "sub". That will give you a nice thump but it is not going to shake the building and knock the wind out of you.
Post by: Isaac South on July 10, 2018, 09:11:38 AM
I completely 100% agree with you guys. Thank you for the bold and stern words. You guys (and everyone here) have been more help than you will ever know. I often tell my wife about how you guys are so willing to share things that you’ve spend your entire lives learning with a greenhorn like myself. It really does mean a lot.
I am not one to give excuses. But I would like to solidify something I’ve said on here several times. I am in small-town Kentucky. And things do not work here like they do in bigger cities. They just simply don’t. Thank God, I go to a progressive church, that was not afraid to put some money on the table and get a very nice sound system (and other great updates in the church). But when I run into an issue, or a problem that I’m trying to diagnose, one does not simply “stop-by” and help. I have to do my best to resolve the issue myself first. The closest sound professional to us is a minimum of two hours away. And we hired one of those companies. And clearly, they did not do the best of jobs.
Furthermore, I live in a different town (haha that’s what we call it) than my church is in. I have small kids. I have a job and a side job. For me to go to the church and spend a couple of hours, is something I have to plan for. And then by the time Sunday rolls around, it’s time for service. Once again, not an excuse. But I just don’t want you guys/gals to think I’m not listening and adhering to your advice. I truly am.
So, at this point, I am stuck. I am going to call the install company to get our speaker fixed under warranty (if they aren’t still upset with me. I recently spoke to them sternly but very nicely, about how I am disappointed in the level of care they promised us vs the level we received.) Anyways, I am going to call them. But who’s to say the way they installed the subwoofer and amp the first time was wrong, and they don’t make the same mistake again?
I did try the sine wave a few weeks ago (I didn’t isolate the amps). But that was literally the first time I had ever heard, much less used, a sine wave generator in my life. I turned it on and swept it, but had no clue what to listen for. I didn’t know good from bad - and bad from good.
Since I’m on stage every weekend and we have no one (other than the bass player) with enough sound skills to notice a problem, something like this blown-sub could have been going on for a while and no one ever noticed.
Once again, thank you all for your help. I’m doing my best to be a good steward of my church’s money and trust. What are your thoughts on finding someone else (other than the install team)? Do you know anyone in the Kentucky area that you trust? (note: David Winners was unable to stop by. He did contact me and let me know. Not his fault. His trip was simply canceled.)
Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 10, 2018, 04:59:20 PM
What town is the church in?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 10, 2018, 05:44:54 PM
At this point I WOULD NOT get the original install company involved any more, most here I think have a bad feeling about what they did or did not do.
What town is the church in?
I am about 5 hours from Lexington Kentucky. If you don't have a resolution by Sept. (the first time I have a free weekend) maybe we can work something out.
Anything good to eat or something the wife would enjoy?
It would be nice to resolve this. You would probably learn a lot in a very short period of time.
Post by: Isaac South on July 10, 2018, 08:41:21 PM
I am about 5 hours from Lexington Kentucky. If you don't have a resolution by Sept. (the first time I have a free weekend) maybe we can work something out.
Anything good to eat or something the wife would enjoy?
It would be nice to resolve this. You would probably learn a lot in a very short period of time.
We are in Columbia, KY.
Scott - That would be great. We are close to Lake Cumberland (beautiful lake). We have a few local restaurants that you would enjoy.
I’m positive I would learn a ton.
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Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 10, 2018, 09:49:28 PM
We are in Columbia, KY.
Scott - That would be great. We are close to Lake Cumberland (beautiful lake). We have a few local restaurants that you would enjoy.
I’m positive I would learn a ton.
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You are only an hour and 40 minutes from the largest concentration of sound engineers per square mile in the world (Nasheville). That's a made up statistic but maybe one of our Nashville brothers will be headed your way.
Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 10, 2018, 11:00:28 PM
Post by: Isaac South on July 11, 2018, 07:53:42 AM
It looks like your 4 1/2 hours from me. Not out of the question but it would be mid September till I could even think about it.
That’s a be great, Mike. It would be great to have any or all of you guys come for visit. Ha. But seriously. If you can help us out, please let me know the dates.
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Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 11, 2018, 09:39:46 AM
That’s a be great, Mike. It would be great to have any or all of you guys come for visit. Ha. But seriously. If you can help us out, please let me know the dates.
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If you can get someone closer and sooner to do the service call take it. As I get closer to the break in my schedule I'll let you know the details.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 11, 2018, 12:43:56 PM
If you can get someone closer and sooner to do the service call take it. As I get closer to the break in my schedule I'll let you know the details.
Ditto with me, we are booked to cross rental and having to use Penske capacity every weekend until Labor Day and then headed to SFO to hook up with Frank Keyser along with other fun stuff.
So same here, if you find someone in the next two months, jump on it or else will reach out this quarter to you.