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Title: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: claude cascioli on May 19, 2014, 10:41:14 PM
i have been in the businuess since 1974. and i am in the new york metro area and i am fed up with these low ballers that have one system no insurance just a system that the idiot sends out for 300.00 a nite and makes it hard for real companies to make a profit let alone get jobs. its time that sound companies must meet a criteria to even book any gig. and to have the knowlage to know what there doing. i have a big investment and now i want to upgrade but barely make enough to keep going. my businuess has dropped by 50% since 2009 and its beacause of these jerks that give it away we also need to educate the public realize djs are not qualified not sound companys. and we also need to push the ftc to enforce equipment ratings such as the powerd speaker that puts out a 1000.00 for 299.00 and those who think there getting deals there not. most dealers will meet these prices. recently i sold some gear to a local school and beat an online dealer. and made a nice profit
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Kyle Van Sandt on May 19, 2014, 10:57:44 PM
Yup, it sucks.  It is capitalism though.  I don't think the FTC should be involved though... it has nothing to do with trade.  In 2009, the northeast was hit pretty hard by the recession.  People cut corners.  If they had an event, they did it as cheaply as possible.  My venue along with many others lost a lot of business.  It is what it is.  Nothing you can do to stop it besides present the best product you can to your clients.  We have both types of shops in my area.  Some clients go with the high cost one, get D&B rigs with great techs.  The other ones go with the cheap company and get whatever they can throw together in the shop that day.  Some clients learn... some don't care. 

It is up to you to educate your clients why your services cost more.  It is not an easy business to be in... and things are just getting cheaper.  You can put together a nice portable club rig these days for 30k.  That used to cost double that.  The barrier to entry is much lower and many more people want to play. 

We are actually pretty safe in our industry.  Be glad your not a professional photographer, own a recording studio, or god forbid a graphic artist.   
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: chuck clark on May 19, 2014, 11:25:38 PM
In spite of your apparent and mildly disturbing lack of spellcheck I have to agree. The slow rise of DJ's concurrent with less & less gigs requiring a band has reached a tipping point and now seems to be the way of the future.
If your superior equipment, knowledge and talent and dependability and professionalism aren't worth more than $300 a night then you should either adjust your quality of goods and services downward to compete or only accept higher paying jobs that can appreciate and afford to pay the difference. Like many in this business right now, we are faced w/ some tough decisions.
These days anything less than $500/night gets you what I call PA on a stick. The simple fact of the matter is that $300/night is entry level price and that's exactly the equipment that price should get them. Everyone wants a Cadillac for a Volkswagen price but why should you be the fool that delivers it? It's hard to "just say No" but sometimes that's what you gotta do. A lot of weekend soundguys will quit when the novelty wears off and they realize how much work and expenses are involved.  Best of luck!
Chuck
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Brian Jojade on May 19, 2014, 11:43:06 PM
i have been in the businuess since 1974. and i am in the new york metro area and i am fed up with these low ballers that have one system no insurance just a system that the idiot sends out for 300.00 a nite and makes it hard for real companies to make a profit let alone get jobs.

most dealers will meet these prices. recently i sold some gear to a local school and beat an online dealer. and made a nice profit

Do you notice the hypocrisy of the first and last sentences of the post?  First you complain about others that are doing things cheaper, and then you brag about doing the same thing to an established store.  What's the difference?
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 19, 2014, 11:47:58 PM
i have been in the businuess since 1974. and i am in the new york metro area and i am fed up with these low ballers that have one system no insurance just a system that the idiot sends out for 300.00 a nite and makes it hard for real companies to make a profit let alone get jobs. its time that sound companies must meet a criteria to even book any gig. and to have the knowlage to know what there doing. i have a big investment and now i want to upgrade but barely make enough to keep going. my businuess has dropped by 50% since 2009 and its beacause of these jerks that give it away we also need to educate the public realize djs are not qualified not sound companys. and we also need to push the ftc to enforce equipment ratings such as the powerd speaker that puts out a 1000.00 for 299.00 and those who think there getting deals there not. most dealers will meet these prices. recently i sold some gear to a local school and beat an online dealer. and made a nice profit

I'm sympathetic, Claude, but there ain't much you can do when services become "Wal-Marted".  Customer shops for lowest price, end of story.

While it would be nice if there were some kind of "seal of approval", our American history suggests that our lawmakers aren't terribly interested in creating occupational or professional licensing for what we do.  We're not pharmacists or realtors or plumbers or nurses or, or or....  but bad audio hasn't killed anyone, yet.  Shady business practices have their own repercussions, but lots of slimy operators get by for far too long.

I wish there were an answer.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 20, 2014, 02:57:41 AM
We are actually pretty safe in our industry.  Be glad your not a professional photographer...

Indeed.  Have a look at some of the photography forums.  Half the posts are from wedding photographers moaning about people undercutting them.

It's just business though.  Any time that something which used to require the services of a specialist becomes available to the masses, this will happen.


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Jim McKeveny on May 20, 2014, 07:43:03 AM
In NYC Metro area there is lots of gear fighting for fewer musical events.

On top of this, deeper-pocket players recognized that much of their "sound" costs were really transportation & logistics - so they installed their own rigs.

What is left are street fairs and one-offs with sketchy promoters at dicey locations.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Bill Schnake on May 20, 2014, 08:32:26 AM
i am in the new york metro area and i am fed up with these low ballers that have one system no insurance just a system that the idiot sends out for 300.00 a nite and makes it hard for real companies to make a profit let alone get jobs.

I get this, we have the same thing in the mid-west where I live.  We have 'sound companies' who do bar jobs for $200 - $300 regardless of the number of hours.

Quote
i have a big investment and now i want to upgrade but barely make enough to keep going. my businuess has dropped by 50% since 2009 and its beacause of these jerks that give it away

This is where you and I disagree and have had different results.  During the height of the recession I saw several of the companies that worked space we did fail.  Not just because of competition, but because of poor business practices.  I am not saying that is the case with you company. We have managed to weather the storm and now are up 37% above where we were in 2009. 

I get calls all of the time from bands and functions that want to have us do sound for $300; 98% of them we turn down.  Once in a great while, like last Thursday, we will do the job. Last Thursday we did because the singer I have known each other for 10 years and we click.  It was also a 3 job day, conference for the State of Illinois, School Musical and the band.  So between the 3 jobs that day we did alright.;)  Generally on bar shows, we just say that is not what our focus is and Thank You for asking.  Would you like us to refer you to someone else?  Could we work more if we did them...yes.  However, I would rather work less and be paid more.  It's a choice that we made and we are sticking to.  I currently have four employees besides myself that I have to provide a salary to.

It seems like if your focus is that you want to provide sound for bars.  If that is true, then you have to work at a rate that the market in your area is willing to pay or you have to find a way to differentiate your services from someone who is not as qualified.

Bill 8)
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Robert Weston on May 20, 2014, 09:15:44 AM
i have been in the businuess since 1974. and i am in the new york metro area and i am fed up with these low ballers that have one system no insurance just a system that the idiot sends out for 300.00 a nite and makes it hard for real companies to make a profit let alone get jobs. its time that sound companies must meet a criteria to even book any gig. and to have the knowlage to know what there doing. i have a big investment and now i want to upgrade but barely make enough to keep going. my businuess has dropped by 50% since 2009 and its beacause of these jerks that give it away we also need to educate the public realize djs are not qualified not sound companys. and we also need to push the ftc to enforce equipment ratings such as the powerd speaker that puts out a 1000.00 for 299.00 and those who think there getting deals there not. most dealers will meet these prices. recently i sold some gear to a local school and beat an online dealer. and made a nice profit

When the focus of your work (whatever that may be) is money, then that's what it all becomes about... money.  Are you more interested in making money, or running sound because you enjoy it.

Money/profits are important, but if that is the focus of your work, you are going to take a beating from a lot of people who do this kind of work because they enjoy it more than making money.  Either accept it and manage it and (emotionally) move on, or change to another line of work where you can make more money.

I think a lot of people on this forum have a greater passion for sound, and have experienced the same "undercutting" issues.  Perhaps to "fight the undercutting" many of us have added/changed/modified/improved our services to accommodate a wider audience, which usually equates to more money.

Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 20, 2014, 09:18:33 AM
In NYC Metro area there is lots of gear fighting for fewer musical events.

On top of this, deeper-pocket players recognized that much of their "sound" costs were really transportation & logistics - so they installed their own rigs.

What is left are street fairs and one-offs with sketchy promoters at dicey locations.

I have seen the same thing happen to a variety of professions over the past 50 years.  I grew up on a family farm...gone.  Small business...wiped out by corporation.  Musician...wannabe's playing for (coffee) beans/exposure.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Taylor Hall on May 20, 2014, 09:22:43 AM
Steve stole my talking point, but it's the same in numerous other areas. Technology has advanced to the point that the equipment itself is now cheaper and more approachable, and the knowledge needed to make it "work" is pretty much freely available online. Anyone with a couple grand can buy a bar gig rig that will get the job done, much in the same way that any yahoo can buy a DSLR or a couple CDJs and call themselves a competent photographer or DJ.

It always comes down to having the skills to back up the equipment that separates the bottom feeders from the real pros. The problem now is that people don't want to pay for that expertise when they get the "same rig" for half the price or more. All I can say is that I'm glad I have a day job, because I couldn't see myself making a living off of this.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Robert Weston on May 20, 2014, 09:36:22 AM
Just like being an auto mechanic - I have an in-depth knowledge of carbureted engines, headers, manifolds, and distributor timing - my skills have little value today due to computers, FI engines, and anyone being able to diagnose their own engine issues with over-the-counter OBD readers and the internet.  I was forced to changed in order to make a living.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: MIKE Lynn on May 20, 2014, 09:38:19 AM
  This stuff happens in every business and you just have to roll with it , if they dont have the budget for your rig its simple they arent your customer, some people dont care at all about quaility they only care about bottom dollar price. I wont work for pennies, but at the same time dont need to make all my money on 1 job. find the medium and figure out at what point its worth leaving the house and doing a gig. Theres a guy in my area that brings out a full PA for $400 bucks. (Local Bar Gig) 2 dual 18 subs , dual 15" 2 ways on top , rack full of amps, rack full of processing, 32Ch Mix, 5 stage wedges , all the mics / stands, full kit miced, you get the idea , and gets there 4 hours prior to start time ,4 hours gig time and then break down and load out. Seems crazy to me for 400 bucks. I couldnt do it for less than $1500. But thats what I think is reasonable. Others on here may say Im too cheep and wouldnt go out on gig like that for less than 3K. So my point is that in this case that gig isnt for me at the price they pay, but it is to the guy doing it i guess. I could do it but its not worth it to me. Actually would cost me $400 in labor to do the gig. I will agree that there are far more people out there that think they know what they are doing in this business that actually do know what they are doing.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Brian Bingham on May 20, 2014, 10:13:55 AM
I have seen many "pros" tell "noobies" on forums about pricing of live sound services to: charge what your worth. If you're still learning go out for free or $100. They specifically said don't charge what a pro charges until you're a pro. Now I'm new to this forum so I haven't read that here but I've read posts like that on almost every live sound forum I've come across. I think some pros drove their own price down telling all the noobs they're not worth as much...

The going rate here is also about $300 which is crazy low. We take a few gigs on slow nights at this price. Mileage is always extra tho. Gas is just too expensive.


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Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 20, 2014, 10:18:12 AM
Gas is just too expensive.

I read this a lot on forums - usually from Americans who have some of the cheapest fuel in the world.  Here in the UK, it's about twice the US price!


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Brian Bingham on May 20, 2014, 10:27:15 AM
I still remember the late 90's when I could fill up my honda accord for $10. Gas floated around $1/gallon. Now it's usually somewhere around $4. I'd definitely have to re-evaluate my business if I had to pay double. There are some gigs we travel 500 miles to do. Most are under 200 miles tho.


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Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 20, 2014, 10:30:11 AM
Most are under 200 miles tho.

I don't think I have ever travelled that far for work.  I do live on an island 26 miles wide though!


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: John Chiara on May 20, 2014, 10:37:59 AM
I throw another perspective out. In my area there are literally dozens of sound 'companies' but the worst offenders it seems are the legit ones. Local 11 show series I stopped bidding on as it was so underpriced it was ridiculous. The talent buyer is a good friend, they have the same company this year as last... Buyer tells company they were late for 4 shows last year and it is crucial that they are show ready by 5PM....first thing out of the company presidents mouth..."well it is a shoestring budget."
No s*^#!!! YOU LOWBALLED THE BID!!
I am convinced they just don't want someone else doing any shows. If the quality was even decent I would not complain but obviously that isn't the case. I am mixing a friends band opening the first show..I don't have high hopes for a good experience.BTW... I used to be hired by this company JUST to mix shows and I mixed 16 shows in this exact location with the sane system.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: brian maddox on May 20, 2014, 11:03:37 AM
I have seen many "pros" tell "noobies" on forums about pricing of live sound services to: charge what your worth...

And it's companion axiom, be worth what you charge [which you did allude to in the rest of your post].

 It doesn't really ultimately matter what you Think you're worth, the market will determine what you're worth.  Trust me.  If you raise your prices and go out of business you weren't worth the money, at least in the market you work in.

So, how do you raise your worth?  To answer that i give you Brian's two laws for making money.

1.  Don't do something everybody else WANTS to do.  Like hanging out with drunk chicks mixing in bars for free beer and gas money.  Nobody LIKES doing corporate talking head gigs, so guess where the money is?

2.  Make sure the person paying you isn't spending their own money.  Bar gigs are paid by bands or club owners who are paying you their own money that they got by prying money out of the bar patron's hands.  Corporate gigs are paid by the accounts payable department.  again, no surprise where the money is.

You can do a lot of things to stretch the boundaries of these laws, but very few people are lucky enough to be able to break them, especially in the sound business.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 20, 2014, 12:22:43 PM
The talent buyer is a good friend, they have the same company this year as last... Buyer tells company they were late for 4 shows last year and it is crucial that they are show ready by 5PM....first thing out of the company presidents mouth..."well it is a shoestring budget."
No s*^#!!! YOU LOWBALLED THE BID!!

I am surprised that they didn't have a clause in the contract in regards to tardiness this year, let alone that they hired them back. A good portion of our business is about customer service and reliability, and to not be where you need to be, when you are supposed to be there, reflects poorly on your company as well as the industry as a whole.

Bill made some good points- part business practices, but also differentiating yourself from others in the market. There's a company I know of (and I don't like to name names) that has been getting gigs by undercutting other established companies. "Hire our stage, and we'll throw in PA for free." Or losing money on the labor, because they want to gain new clients and hopefully keep them. Well, they're pissing people off. I rely a lot on my relationships and connections with the other companies in the Pacific Northwest, for cross-rents, referrals, etc, so I am determined to maintain good relationships with them!

Regarding business in general, sometimes you have to think outside the box, and figure out other ways to set yourself apart from the other providers in the area. *Why* are you worth a higher fee then another company? Great service? Cutting edge equipment? Bands love to work with you? Bundling things can also help as well. If you don't do lighting, maybe get a small LED kit for the bar gigs. In order to "beat the recession," and be able to put my fingers in a few more pots then I had in the past, I ended up buying new gear. I invested in ellipsoidals for doing custom gobos (and specialized lighting) at weddings. I bought a diesel generator in 2012, along with a couple hundred feet of cam feeder and 150' of cable ramps. This has allowed me to not only increase my rental income, both to my clients and to other companies, but also sell myself as a more rounded "one-stop-shop" for an event. (Although I drew the line at staging and video walls. Haha.)

-Ray
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 20, 2014, 12:50:57 PM
(Although I drew the line at staging and video walls. Haha.)

-Ray

We sub out staging as you need a good crew chief, and we don't have anyone with a passion for building stages.  Our rental requests for conventional stages have dropped significantly, too.

We're thinking about video walls and soft video curtains, though...
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 20, 2014, 01:19:33 PM
Our rental requests for conventional stages have dropped significantly, too.

Exactly. Why spend the time and effort and expense to build something out, when you can just call in an SL250. Haha.

We're thinking about video walls and soft video curtains, though...

I keep thinking about video walls-- the rental charge(s) on those are pretty appealing, but I think I will work on paying off my other debt first before buying new toys. :D

-Ray
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 20, 2014, 01:33:02 PM
Exactly. Why spend the time and effort and expense to build something out, when you can just call in an SL250. Haha.

I keep thinking about video walls-- the rental charge(s) on those are pretty appealing, but I think I will work on paying off my other debt first before buying new toys. :D

-Ray

Our debt load is pretty small, the issue is the amount of competition in the "fits in a trailer" sizes.  Lots of folks with 1 ton pickups pulling these around.  That's one of the reasons we're thinking about soft walls - we can go bigger in less space/weight.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Jay Barracato on May 20, 2014, 02:55:54 PM
Whatever you think of their business practices, a plan based on what the other guy should do is doomed to fail.

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Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Franklin Benjamin on May 20, 2014, 04:34:39 PM
i have been in the businuess since 1974. and i am in the new york metro area and i am fed up with these low ballers that have one system no insurance just a system that the idiot sends out for 300.00 a nite and makes it hard for real companies to make a profit let alone get jobs. its time that sound companies must meet a criteria to even book any gig. and to have the knowlage to know what there doing. i have a big investment and now i want to upgrade but barely make enough to keep going. my businuess has dropped by 50% since 2009 and its beacause of these jerks that give it away we also need to educate the public realize djs are not qualified not sound companys. and we also need to push the ftc to enforce equipment ratings such as the powerd speaker that puts out a 1000.00 for 299.00 and those who think there getting deals there not. most dealers will meet these prices. recently i sold some gear to a local school and beat an online dealer. and made a nice profit

NYC is a very hard market.  On top of all the issues you mentioned, you forgot the politics of NYC.  Many clubs and bars are being shut down, never to reopen as that line of business.  Community boards are getting tired of the drunks leaving clubs making too much noise.  Some clubs and lounges are not properly insulated and where before it was based on how loud the disturbance was from the entrance, (db meter) I believe it's now based on the discretion of the officer.  And let's not forget the laundry lists of permits that need to be maintained.  Some club operators are too stupid or cheap or both to keep their paperwork up to date.  As with any business, you gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em...
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Al Rettich on May 20, 2014, 04:51:45 PM
Thats been the way of the road here in southern, ohio. From the state line east to I-71, and from the state line north to I-70 I know of twenty six people that have "PA" for rent. Be it PA on a stick, or chinese line array boxes, or my favorite Mackie stacks. I lost a job I've had for five years, to this guy. He brought in twelve mackie stacks (hi pack plus sub). I was getting $1,500 for racks and stacks (providing line array) with two guys. The client asked if I could match his quote for $700.00. Or, there is a party in the park situation downtown. Client asked me to bid on it. Tired of JBL HLA. Bidded it with VerTec. Gave him a great deal. Six boxes a side over top three subs a side. Four wedges, with a SC48 out front. $1,250.00 only cause it was a ongoing situation. Said he was only paying $250.00 a night with the HLA.
i have been in the businuess since 1974. and i am in the new york metro area and i am fed up with these low ballers that have one system no insurance just a system that the idiot sends out for 300.00 a nite and makes it hard for real companies to make a profit let alone get jobs. its time that sound companies must meet a criteria to even book any gig. and to have the knowlage to know what there doing. i have a big investment and now i want to upgrade but barely make enough to keep going. my businuess has dropped by 50% since 2009 and its beacause of these jerks that give it away we also need to educate the public realize djs are not qualified not sound companys. and we also need to push the ftc to enforce equipment ratings such as the powerd speaker that puts out a 1000.00 for 299.00 and those who think there getting deals there not. most dealers will meet these prices. recently i sold some gear to a local school and beat an online dealer. and made a nice profit
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on May 20, 2014, 05:44:52 PM
My day job is an electrical contractor-so I almost never post in the LAB.  That said, business is business. So I pose this question. 

At the LAB level do you really want to be doing gigs that you get by being the lowest cost provider?
 
I am fairly new in business (at least full time make it or break)-another contractor advised me that the customers I get because I am the lowest cost provider will be gone as soon as lower priced provider comes along.  Yes the pricing pressure is there, and yes I do some work at low ball rates to get opportunities.  But my bread and butter is customers that call me and don't ask price (or maybe ask just to make sure they have enough pennies in the piggy bank) because they know I will deliver quality work at a fair price.  "Quality" has many facets, of course.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Kirby Yarbrough on May 20, 2014, 05:56:56 PM
"Quality" has many facets, of course.

Saw a great bumper sticker on the back of a plumber's van:  "Good is never cheap, and cheap is never good."
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 20, 2014, 06:14:22 PM
Saw a great bumper sticker on the back of a plumber's van:  "Good is never cheap, and cheap is never good."

How about "If you think hiring a professional is expensive, wait until you try hiring an amateur."

-Ray
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 20, 2014, 09:25:15 PM
I'm sympathetic, Claude, but there ain't much you can do when services become "Wal-Marted".  Customer shops for lowest price, end of story.

While it would be nice if there were some kind of "seal of approval", our American history suggests that our lawmakers aren't terribly interested in creating occupational or professional licensing for what we do.  We're not pharmacists or realtors or plumbers or nurses or, or or....  but bad audio hasn't killed anyone, yet.  Shady business practices have their own repercussions, but lots of slimy operators get by for far too long.

I wish there were an answer.

The "seal of approval" is the additonal money you can ask for based on a reputation for providing quality sound and a quality performance. Combine that with customer service and most people with a gig worth working will spend the additional money.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 21, 2014, 02:48:49 AM
Saw a great bumper sticker on the back of a plumber's van:  "Good is never cheap, and cheap is never good."

My favourite sticker seen on the back of a van:

'No sandwhiches are kept in this van overnight'


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Jim McKeveny on May 21, 2014, 07:11:20 AM
Consolidation on the promoter front has also lead to vendor abuse. LiveNation approached the owner of my old soundco about a year-long block of dates at NYC's Town Hall, then wished him to match absurd pricing with the bottom feeder they are using. "No. Thank you." was reply.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Curtis H List (Too Tall) on May 21, 2014, 12:39:21 PM
Stages and roofs fall down/blow away on a regular basis.
People claim to be riggers because their key chain is on a Carabiner.
My guess is the only way to get a foothold is having excellent staff and forget the $500 gigs, unless they come to you.

Many years ago a local company had a big dinner meeting.
This is a VERY large and powerful International company.
Since this is the internet we will call it “Company X”.

For their meeting they needed one vocal mic, a powered head, speakers. Add in mic stand and cables etc.
 A vice president took a low ball price from a typical Music Store.
It robbed gear off the shelves and took off the tags.

Whoever they sent out took only what they needed and no back up.
Perhaps whoever they sent knew how to hook up the gear, maybe not.

Did they hook up all the gear up before it left the shop?
Most likely they did not?

 In any case it did not work.
I believe Company X was short one Vice President that day.
I never found out for sure, but the Vice President that did contact us was VERY nervous.
The Sound Company hired me to find the gear, hook everything in the shop to test and do the show.
We took two of EVERYTHING. Even people.
They hired another helper, who knows enough to do the gig himself.
They figured having more people would reassure them.

So 10 minutes of work and an hour of iced Shrimp, etc.


Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on May 21, 2014, 04:16:54 PM
I see these post a lot about how people are losing to low ball bidders… and complaining…  I often think.

1) Well maybe you have over priced for the event?
Recently I was traveling with the Band and the Owner said find out what production costs are in that area VS me paying you a couple days.  I did, I was very details in my description of what I needed for my event (Digital Mixer with iPad connection and SRX722/SRX728 equivalent rig and accessories).  The Bids came in; the lowest for $3000 and he was bringing in 2x QSC KW153 & 4x KW181 & PreSonus StudioLive console.  I even had a bid that came in over $10K (Avid Venue & 3x Meyer MSL4 over 3x 650P per side and the tops being flown).  Most of the quotes averaged right around $4,500.  But the Best LMAO quote was: $5000; Mackie TT24 console, 10 Carvin LineArray & 6 Dual 18s and JBL Eon as wedges.
In the end I ended up driving my gear down 10 hours.  I was paid my show rate for 3 days and was given the company credit card for Fuel & Food; I also had a hotel room for 2 nights.  And I even saved the agency money. 


2) Maybe you are no longer getting those high paying gigs because you’re not up to the clients standards?
There is a guy in my local area who used to be big in the corporate world in the 90’s.  He spent a ton of money on gear upgrade and stayed in the Corpy world for a few years and then slowly started losing gigs.  And he couldn’t figure out why.  Well, he hasn’t upgraded any of his gear; his gear sometimes works; his gear looks like it’s been to hell and back.


3) Maybe your not as good as you think you are?
I know a production company that rents EVERYTHING for each gig... and then adds a what they want to make for the gig on top of that.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: John Chiara on May 21, 2014, 05:00:59 PM
Bad thing here is the buyers send out bid proposals with NO requirements....asking for gear appropriate to the event, when they have NO IDEA what that even means. So providers keep bidding it down and sending out as little as possible with 3rd string crews. No one complains as they didn't know what they actually needed on the first place.... And on and on....and you all know that once a price range gets established it is impossible to convince someone they they are paying too little. If they do figure it out, then they want better at the same price.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: John Penkala on May 21, 2014, 06:52:11 PM
I see these post a lot about how people are losing to low ball bidders… and complaining…  I often think.

1) Well maybe you have over priced for the event?
Recently I was traveling with the Band and the Owner said find out what production costs are in that area VS me paying you a couple days.  I did, I was very details in my description of what I needed for my event (Digital Mixer with iPad connection and SRX722/SRX728 equivalent rig and accessories).  The Bids came in; the lowest for $3000 and he was bringing in 2x QSC KW153 & 4x KW181 & PreSonus StudioLive console.  I even had a bid that came in over $10K (Avid Venue & 3x Meyer MSL4 over 3x 650P per side and the tops being flown).  Most of the quotes averaged right around $4,500.  But the Best LMAO quote was: $5000; Mackie TT24 console, 10 Carvin LineArray & 6 Dual 18s and JBL Eon as wedges.
In the end I ended up driving my gear down 10 hours.  I was paid my show rate for 3 days and was given the company credit card for Fuel & Food; I also had a hotel room for 2 nights.  And I even saved the agency money. 


2) Maybe you are no longer getting those high paying gigs because you’re not up to the clients standards?
There is a guy in my local area who used to be big in the corporate world in the 90’s.  He spent a ton of money on gear upgrade and stayed in the Corpy world for a few years and then slowly started losing gigs.  And he couldn’t figure out why.  Well, he hasn’t upgraded any of his gear; his gear sometimes works; his gear looks like it’s been to hell and back.


3) Maybe your not as good as you think you are?
I know a production company that rents EVERYTHING for each gig... and then adds a what they want to make for the gig on top of that.

Matt,
        I know you love what you do and are probably very good at it,  but do you see even a little irony in your post?

JP
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on May 22, 2014, 08:03:16 AM
Matt,
        I know you love what you do and are probably very good at it,  but do you see even a little irony in your post?

JP

Well I think if your losing out to a $300 bid... its Lounge type gig.  Its a gig that probably not even worth the headache.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 23, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
I know a production company that rents EVERYTHING for each gig... and then adds a what they want to make for the gig on top of that.

Gosh, a business model where you don't have to ever actually own anything (and the associated depreciation, repairs and maintenance, upgrades and so on)? But you can rent it out and make money? That's the way to do it.

I mean seriously, if this company is making money doing this, and their clients are happy (and returning) then I don't see anything wrong with that. But, I don't equate that scenario to "not being as good as you think you are," though.

Either way-- saw a post over on ProAudioSpace (http://www.proaudiospace.com/profiles/blogs/bad-production-soundguy-as-event-manager-saying-no) a couple years ago about events and pricing. The blogger mentioned a client that had left him for a lower priced option, and  when he went to check out the event... all hell was breaking lose. The new production people had sound that was way to loud for the space, and as it was a benefit auction, they took a sizable hit ($60K!) with their fundraising-- and the next Monday, he approached them, mentioned they probably weren't using the same vendor again, and offered his services once again. They booked on the spot for the next year!

So, sometimes it does take a bad event with the low baller to show a client *why* you are worth what you charge. Go in, do the best job possible and make sure you WOW the client with your performance and your service, and they're going to see why you are worth what you're charging. (Unless you have dated gear, of course, or are way over priced for the area. If you quote me $2K for a weekend rental of a pair of Mackie 450s, I would say no. Haha.)

-Ray
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on May 23, 2014, 02:08:28 PM
I've written this before somewhere, but this topic comes up every few months.

1.  Customers are always motivated to the lowest price.  This isn't inherently a bad thing.
2.  Customers are generally a poor judge of value - they are often unwilling or unable to learn about their requirements, and consequently ask for "a microphone", instead of a system.
3.  In light of #1 and #2 above, if a customer is presented with a cheaper offer, they will almost certainly give it a try, which results in one of the following outcomes:
- The event fails due to expectations not being met/clueless lowball provider, etc. and the client is at least partially educated that there can be more to this than simply price.  Hopefully this leads to a correction and the client booking with a better provider next time.
- The event turns out just fine, because their expectations were met by the lower-cost provider - no-name brand gear worked fine, no one died, etc.  In this case the error is at least partially on the side of the "high-cost/incumbent/you" - not understanding the client's real requirements and bidding a system or services that were more than what the client actually needed.

Price negotiation is an art - particularly on things where there can be an incredible cost difference for something somewhat intangible - brand name gear, "sound quality", etc.

If you want to make a lot of money, go be a proctologist, a garbage collector, or something else that people are unwilling to do for cheap because it's fun. 
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Brian Jojade on May 23, 2014, 05:41:20 PM
Price negotiation is an art - particularly on things where there can be an incredible cost difference for something somewhat intangible - brand name gear, "sound quality", etc.

There should be very little price negotiation in quoting a system.  Set your prices for labor, gear rental and transport and stick to it.   What you need to do is sell what you've got, at the price you're asking. If the customer wants a lower price, then find out what you can CUT from the show to hit their target budget.  It's negotiating the sale, but not negotiating the price.

Knowing what your competition offers is extremely valuable so that you can offer comparisons.  However, if what the competition offers is acceptable to the customer, getting them to rent your more expensive gear is going to be a challenge.  You could lower your price to match the competition, but if you're doing that, then why did you buy more expensive gear to start with?  It's a losing proposition.  Don't do it.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Ian Mansfield on May 24, 2014, 03:08:02 AM
Well written TJ.

There is a very good book written in the early sixties by J. Paul Getty, called How to BE rich, in it he discusses the "business" side of business and although it was written 50 years ago, 90% of it could have been writer yesterday. Our jobs as owners / managers are to ensure we give great products/services at HIGHLY competitive prices and make a profit doing so. If there is cheaper competition you need to look within your operation to decide how to deal with it , and not complain about them. Microsoft and Apple have more bottom feeder competitors than any companies I know, in some cases the competitive products are given away, and yet they are highly successful.

Stick to what you good at, and do it well. If someone can do it much cheaper than you, successfully, then you have the problem, not them.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Craig Leerman on May 24, 2014, 07:11:02 AM
The first problem with our industry is that we have HOBBYISTS and UNLICENSED practitioners passing themselves off as companies.

My first answer to a client who wants me to match a lowball price: "Is the "company" who bid the low price licensed and insured?" I then go on to explain how an unlicensed and uninsured vender can end up costing them a ton of money if there is an accident or injury at the event.

I spend thousands a year just on being legal. Not many houses are ZONED for a business, especially a production company so I need to rent a commercial property (or buy one). Because I'm in a commercial property I have additional costs like inspection fees and Fire extinguisher maintenance (here in Vegas my 4 building extinguishers need a certified fire maintenance company to check, refill and retag them every year)

I pay for state and county licenses, corporate filing fees, ficticious name registration and of course insurance. My phone and internet lines also cost more than ones at home because I am a business customer, same with my power costs. While folks working out of their garages may use their personal vehicles and/or small trailer to haul gear, I use company vehicles and have to pay higher commercial vehicle insurance than a regular person. Larger trucks also equal larger maintenance costs and usually higher fuel costs.

So you can imagine the look on my face when I read about some of you hobbyist/illegal "companies" complaining about others low balling!


Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 24, 2014, 08:22:52 AM
In the UK we don't have any of that licencing nonsense.  No reason why you should pay good money to a government department for nothing of any value in return other than a piece of paper to prove you have paid it.


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Mike Pyle on May 24, 2014, 04:03:02 PM
In the UK we don't have any of that licencing nonsense.  No reason why you should pay good money to a government department for nothing of any value in return other than a piece of paper to prove you have paid it.


Steve.

https://www.gov.uk/set-up-business-uk




Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Brook Hovland on May 24, 2014, 04:14:55 PM
BINGO! It floors me how many "companies" this industry and others have no workers comp, no liability insurance and it doesn't seem to bother some promoters in the least. One injury could derail a venue or promoter.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 24, 2014, 08:43:05 PM
https://www.gov.uk/set-up-business-uk

Most people doing this just register themselves as self employd.  It's not really the same as getting a licence to be in business.


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve Alves on May 24, 2014, 08:54:29 PM
In the UK we don't have any of that licencing nonsense.  No reason why you should pay good money to a government department for nothing of any value in return other than a piece of paper to prove you have paid it.


Steve.

I ran a business in the UK. It is one hundred times more restrictive then in the US.. Plus the employees have more rights then the employer.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on May 24, 2014, 10:22:52 PM

The first problem with our industry is that we have HOBBYISTS and UNLICENSED practitioners passing themselves off as companies.


Name an industry that does not have this "problem."

IMO the fact that we have the opportunity to start small and either learn to handle the business aspect properly and grow,or fail to learn and fall on our face is one of the reasons we have a great country to live and do business in-defended by many who we pause for too short a time this weekend to remember and honor.

How many audio companies that are major players today started out of a garage or the trunk of a personal vehicle?  Why should you have the right to make big money doing something you enjoy, while the aspiring provider is denied the opportunity to get started by zoning or restrictive licensing?  You have a head start, if he beats you at your game, he is the better man-whether we like to admit it or not.

Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: John Chiara on May 24, 2014, 10:37:23 PM
Name an industry that does not have this "problem."

IMO the fact that we have the opportunity to start small and either learn to handle the business aspect properly and grow,or fail to learn and fall on our face is one of the reasons we have a great country to live and do business in-defended by many who we pause for too short a time this weekend to remember and honor.

How many audio companies that are major players today started out of a garage or the trunk of a personal vehicle?  Why should you have the right to make big money doing something you enjoy, while the aspiring provider is denied the opportunity to get started by zoning or restrictive licensing?  You have a head start, if he beats you at your game, he is the better man-whether we like to admit it or not.

2 words...
Liability.....everyone sues for everything.
Quality....good gear is cheap. Years ago you had to improve your skills to advance....today...that I see....all you need is a void sales rap because the buyers are much more ignorant. The public suffers but ends up being exposed to so much mediocrity that they are not valid judges of quality. Someone  has to have the knowledge and pride to keep this decent.
Just my opinion, but most events I see downright suck and are embarrassing to be at.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Jason Raboin on May 25, 2014, 09:05:06 AM
The first problem with our industry is that we have HOBBYISTS and UNLICENSED practitioners passing themselves off as companies.

My first answer to a client who wants me to match a lowball price: "Is the "company" who bid the low price licensed and insured?" I then go on to explain how an unlicensed and uninsured vender can end up costing them a ton of money if there is an accident or injury at the event.

I spend thousands a year just on being legal. Not many houses are ZONED for a business, especially a production company so I need to rent a commercial property (or buy one). Because I'm in a commercial property I have additional costs like inspection fees and Fire extinguisher maintenance (here in Vegas my 4 building extinguishers need a certified fire maintenance company to check, refill and retag them every year)

I pay for state and county licenses, corporate filing fees, ficticious name registration and of course insurance. My phone and internet lines also cost more than ones at home because I am a business customer, same with my power costs. While folks working out of their garages may use their personal vehicles and/or small trailer to haul gear, I use company vehicles and have to pay higher commercial vehicle insurance than a regular person. Larger trucks also equal larger maintenance costs and usually higher fuel costs.

So you can imagine the look on my face when I read about some of you hobbyist/illegal "companies" complaining about others low balling!

I have insurance and commercial plates on my van, but store my gear in my garage.  I am a sole proprietor, not a corporation.  Does this make me a hobbyist?  Illegal?  Many electricians, roofers, plumbers, and other tradesmen store their vehicles and tools at their homes, but I doubt they would be consider themselves hobbyists.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: John Chiara on May 25, 2014, 12:37:32 PM
I have insurance and commercial plates on my van, but store my gear in my garage.  I am a sole proprietor, not a corporation.  Does this make me a hobbyist?  Illegal?  Many electricians, roofers, plumbers, and other tradesmen store their vehicles and tools at their homes, but I doubt they would be consider themselves hobbyists.

I agree, but I would be afraid to operate in public settings where injury could happen....for any reason that might come back to me...without being incorporated. I don't want to lose my personal life if my insurance doesn't cover someone dying.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 25, 2014, 12:41:20 PM
I ran a business in the UK. It is one hundred times more restrictive then in the US.. Plus the employees have more rights then the employer.

Possibly.  I was thinking more of the single person operation, or 'weekend warrior' as in the title of this thread.

These are usually people with a full time job doing something at the weekend.  All you need to do in the UK is register as self employed to pay tax on the extra income.  Public liability insurance is a good idea and you should ensure the insurance on any vehicle you use is valid for business use.

I don't think there should be too many restrictions on someone starting up in business. Everyone needs to start somewhere. Otherwise you would get to the point where you can only have a business if you already have an established business.


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Jason Raboin on May 25, 2014, 08:05:29 PM
I agree, but I would be afraid to operate in public settings where injury could happen....for any reason that might come back to me...without being incorporated. I don't want to lose my personal life if my insurance doesn't cover someone dying.

That makes sense but one of the largest sound companies in New England (large V-DOSC house) is a sole proprietorship and has been for like 40 years without incident.  I'm not so worried for now but it does make sense to incorporate at some point.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on May 25, 2014, 09:05:10 PM
That makes sense but one of the largest sound companies in New England (large V-DOSC house) is a sole proprietorship and has been for like 40 years without incident.  I'm not so worried for now but it does make sense to incorporate at some point.
Keep in mind that a "corporation of one" offers little liability protection.  After suing the "corporation", they will surely sue the individual involved - both of which are you.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Craig Leerman on May 26, 2014, 04:04:05 PM
I have insurance and commercial plates on my van, but store my gear in my garage.  I am a sole proprietor, not a corporation.  Does this make me a hobbyist?  Illegal?  Many electricians, roofers, plumbers, and other tradesmen store their vehicles and tools at their homes, but I doubt they would be consider themselves hobbyists.

Most other tradespersons either work for a licensed company or have a license themselves. Most hobbyist audio folks are not licensed at all just like most local bands are not licensed and insured businesses.  Many areas are zoned to allow a person to keep their work van at their house. Some zoning allow certain businesses to use the house for their business. Where I live in Las Vegas, and where I used to live in Baltimore County a residence or neighborhood is not zoned for an audio production company, especially one with a truck larger than 5 tons.

Just because many people do the wrong thing does not make it right.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 26, 2014, 08:51:14 PM
That makes sense but one of the largest sound companies in New England (large V-DOSC house) is a sole proprietorship and has been for like 40 years without incident.  I'm not so worried for now but it does make sense to incorporate at some point.
It doesn't matter if there is a sole proprietor or if the company is traded on the NYSE. What does matter is that there is a business license and enough insurance in place to cover accidents that include the public and hired hands. Incorporating may or may not be a good step for a business, and it is not a prerequisite to doing good business.
 
This entire thread was started as a bitch about "ankle biting" low balling competition, and not working with a license or insurance is obviously a way to lower costs. But guess what? EVERYONE here started somewhere and has provided services for less than someone else, so in light of that we have all bitten a few ankles in our time.
 
At my age and with everything that's going on in my life I've started to wind down, and I'm taking fewer gigs. I'm still holding the line on the cost for my band, but I could drop that price to the cost of a U-Haul rental tomorrow if I wanted to. I'm currently organizing a "veterans dance" for the fall which will be a fairly big deal in this state. I'll make sure all of my people are paid well, but if you feel a little nip at the heels, that's me. And if you happen to see an RFQ in this area for the event, don't even bother, because the event is sacred to me and I'll do it for $1 if I have to.
 
Title: Lost Gigs
Post by: Russ Davis on May 27, 2014, 08:19:29 AM
Brian's comment to the OP:
Do you notice the hypocrisy of the first and last sentences of the post?

I notice Claude hasn't been back to the thread he started to answer this question, and after looking at his previous posts I doubt he will be.  I suspect his business may be suffering from issues other than ankle-biters.  Too bad; it was an interesting topic until his post meandered off into unrelated territory.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Jason Raboin on May 27, 2014, 08:22:48 AM
It doesn't matter if there is a sole proprietor or if the company is traded on the NYSE. What does matter is that there is a business license and enough insurance in place to cover accidents that include the public and hired hands. Incorporating may or may not be a good step for a business, and it is not a prerequisite to doing good business.
 
This entire thread was started as a bitch about "ankle biting" low balling competition, and not working with a license or insurance is obviously a way to lower costs. But guess what? EVERYONE here started somewhere and has provided services for less than someone else, so in light of that we have all bitten a few ankles in our time.


I agree that a business license and insurance are very important, and are one good way to separate the ankle biters from the legitimate players.  Craig seemed to want to add being a corporation to the things that you must do to be a "legitimate" company, and I was pointing out that there are some large sound companies that have not incorporated.

But the bigger issue is that there are a lot of sound companies that do not run their business like a business.  That means pricing based on a percentage of value, ROI, a living wage, expenses, etc.  There are larger companies that are just as guilty of this as small ones.  Some companies have different pricing levels for different types of clients, and some try to get as much money as they can out of each gig, often selling the client more gear than they need.  Another large company in New England will take the gig at the stated budget as long as there is gear available, to keep its engineers working.  These are short sighted policies.

Yes, everyone starts somewhere.  I did  few gigs for free when I first made the move from touring engineer to provider a couple of years ago.  I called it promotion, and prefer to work for free than at a discount.  It's pretty easy to tell a buyer that they will get it for free once, but if you give a discount, they will always expect a discount.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 27, 2014, 10:21:20 AM
I agree.

When I took over the care of my father over 6 years ago my life ceased with everything outside of that care. Yes, I was able to handle invitational gigs but I was selective. My father has passed now and the veterans tribute is in his honor. It's my gig start to finish so there won't be any RFQ as far as I can see. The twist will be the town who will help sponsor the event and they may insist on an RFQ simply to cover the legal aspects. For everything else I hold the line, and that line is considerably higher than most. PM me with the providers name you mentioned. Working in this area it would be interesting to know who that is.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Brian Jojade on May 27, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
I don't think there should be too many restrictions on someone starting up in business. Everyone needs to start somewhere. Otherwise you would get to the point where you can only have a business if you already have an established business.


This is true to a point.  However, the extremely easy startup allows people to get into the game for a very short while, and NOT make a profit on it since the business is subsidized by their normal day job.  While that's fine to get financing to start up, when the business plan does not include the ability to even break even, it hurts those that want to do this for a living.

I can't think of many other businesses that have to operate with competition that doesn't plan to make a profit.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 27, 2014, 12:54:16 PM
I can't think of many other businesses that have to operate with competition that doesn't plan to make a profit.

Wedding photography and gardening.

EDIT: Although I'm sure it's everyone's intention to make some sort of profit.

It's strange how this thread is running concurrently with one about raising prices!


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 27, 2014, 01:18:02 PM
... NOT make a profit on it since the business is subsidized by their normal day job.  ...

I can't think of many other businesses that have to operate with competition that doesn't plan to make a profit.
I know there has also been discussion on here in the past of competing with entities such as higher education institutions, who go out and buy a good amount of gear and then do all events on campus, using students for free labor, and being able to provide for events at cut rate prices.

That is not, in of itself, a bad thing, but then when this same institution goes out into the local community and offers their services, also at cut-rate prices, and since everything was purchased right out, so they don't need to absolutely show a profit... There have been complaints of that also damaging the business/industry.

-Ray
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on May 27, 2014, 02:05:03 PM
This is true to a point.  However, the extremely easy startup allows people to get into the game for a very short while, and NOT make a profit on it since the business is subsidized by their normal day job.  While that's fine to get financing to start up, when the business plan does not include the ability to even break even, it hurts those that want to do this for a living.

I can't think of many other businesses that have to operate with competition that doesn't plan to make a profit.
Photography, painting, writing, graphic design, sewing, auto racing, computer support, professional shoppers, daycare, home improvement - the list goes on.  Virtually anything that someone may find fun means that there will be some amount of free and/or inexpensive labor.


Once again, if you are pursuing gigs that require whatever amount of licensing you have (personally I find a "business license" to be BS), then you are on a level playing field with others who carry the same amount of business infrastructure.  For gigs that do not require this - either due to lack of enforcement or just not requiring it - having that business infrastructure may be a liability - or not.  For those gigs, the most efficient vendor wins - by lowering quality, lowering business overhead, just being better at it, subsidizing the gig, etc.

There is a place for some amount of regulation - things involving life safety - and these things should be addressed with education, certification, licenses, inspection, codes, etc.  For everything else, I'm struggling to understand why we need more gov't in our faces.

To the forum, not necessarily Brian -
There will always be someone cheaper.  Either figure out how to add value and be worth your price, or get out of the way.  Whining about it is unproductive.  If you can't make what you want in the production business, maybe a career change should be in your future.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve Alves on May 27, 2014, 02:13:11 PM

Once again, if you are pursuing gigs that require whatever amount of licensing you have (personally I find a "business license" to be BS)

The State of Florida did away with cities having "business licenses" a few years back. The now call it exactly what it is..

A "Business Tax Receipt"...
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: James A. Griffin on May 27, 2014, 03:37:15 PM
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ASSume that you are able to communicate with your clients on a plane higher than the one set forth in your OP rant.

That being said, success in any profession requires that you distinguish yourself by providing an exceptional product at a fair price, customer service that goes beyond the call of duty, and an attitude that clients, talent, and staff want to be around.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 27, 2014, 03:41:47 PM
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ASSume that you are able to communicate with your clients on a plane higher than the one set forth in your OP rant.


Thank you.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Guy Morris on June 05, 2014, 05:50:43 AM
It is much the same in the UK and surprisingly you will find the low cost factor appear in some fairly high profile festivals. Apart from the main stage where its all high end and top budget you often find other small stages are provided for by companies who want the Kudos of being there, understandable as that is, unfortunately it allows the promoters and their chain of command to take advantage on the budget level and drive fees down.(that is how business works of course) Along time back I decided that as a rule if the fee did not cover a set of costs to me then it was not worth doing and 'Kudos' is not something that I value as a promoter of my business. My way of thinking is that you can discount kit but not people so if the fees cover crew and logistics with a lower percentage for the tech then I may do it because you often find the client starts asking for extras which are then charged for so adding to the tech percentage. It is human nature to go for the lowest cost, after all don't we all look at the fixed price menu in a restaurant first and the house wine! but then we often change up and spend a lot more!  In the corporate world it is a different scenario, low cost operators cannot compete so easily as it is not just stacks and racks and clients will not take the risk (the reason they stick with the same provider)  but whatever sector you work great customer service is a key element, that's why we all have a favourite restaurant, whether it's cheap or expensive!
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 05, 2014, 06:18:57 PM
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ASSume that you are able to communicate with your clients on a plane higher than the one set forth in your OP rant.

That being said, success in any profession requires that you distinguish yourself by providing an exceptional product at a fair price, customer service that goes beyond the call of duty, and an attitude that clients, talent, and staff want to be around.

If there were ever to be a quote or statement of the month it should be your last paragraph. I've always demanded the best I can give from myself and from those who work with me. The minority think I'm either to hard on them, or just a prick. The majority are thankful I care on all counts. The minority fall by the wayside.
 
Well said James.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: James A. Griffin on June 05, 2014, 06:23:27 PM
If there were ever to be a quote or statement of the month it should be your last paragraph. I've always demanded the best I can give from myself and from those who work with me. The minority think I'm either to hard on them, or just a prick.

Or, as Steve Earle put it, "I Ain't Ever Satisfied".

Thanks for your kind words, Bob.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Robert Piascik on June 06, 2014, 12:36:34 AM
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ASSume that you are able to communicate with your clients on a plane higher than the one set forth in your OP rant.

That being said, success in any profession requires that you distinguish yourself by providing an exceptional product at a fair price, customer service that goes beyond the call of duty, and an attitude that clients, talent, and staff want to be around.


That is very well said James

Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Rob Gow on June 06, 2014, 12:20:25 PM
... i have a big investment and now i want to upgrade but barely make enough to keep going. my businuess has dropped by 50% since 2009 and its beacause of these jerks that give it away...

And

i aggree with you. the problem is if you raise there someone else who going come in cheaper. i do this and it works.if i want a client i do the frist event at no charge i dont even discuss price till after i do the job. and 9 out of 10 times i have gotten the account.

So it's ok for you to do freebies, to take work from others, but not ok for other to do the same to you...
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 06, 2014, 04:04:56 PM
That's called "Stepping on his own dick." Rob.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Jay Barracato on June 06, 2014, 04:31:32 PM
That's called "Stepping on his own dick." Rob.

Apparently he is also willing to call the police if a band tech is not up to some unstated standard.

The race to the bottom is apparently doing fine without me.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 06, 2014, 06:20:22 PM
Apparently he is also willing to call the police if a band tech is not up to some unstated standard.

How can you get the police involved with something like that?!


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 06, 2014, 06:26:03 PM
Let me think.................... You can't.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Russ Davis on June 06, 2014, 06:43:08 PM
How can you get the police involved with something like that?!

Apparently where he's from, misuse of channel mutes justifies calling in the local authorities.  From another thread:

we once did a show with a big act and thier sound guy was an idiot half way thorough the frist song he said there no vocals coming thorough the system . when i said try taking the mutes off the vocal inputs he turned to me and said i dont know what i am talking about. at that point i had him escorted away from the board by the police.

The biggest crime I see here is the wanton slaughtering of the local language.  I sure hope his bids are better written than his posts, if he wants to get new clients.

(DISCLAIMER: I'm married to an English major, so I'm more prone to headaches from reading mangled syntax than most people)
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 06, 2014, 06:43:24 PM
Let me think.................... You can't.

That's what I thought.  They are usually only interested in actual crimes!

(and doughnuts).


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 06, 2014, 06:46:18 PM
The biggest crime I see here is the wanton slaughtering of the local language.  I sure hope his bids are better written than his posts, if he wants to get new clients.

(DISCLAIMER: I'm married to an English major, so I'm more prone to headaches from reading mangled syntax than most people)

As I'm English, it's my duty to be appalled at American spelling and general mangling of our language!!


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Russ Davis on June 06, 2014, 07:11:31 PM
As I'm English, it's my duty to be appalled at American spelling and general mangling of our language!!

I'm pretty sure "frist" is an incorrect spelling on both sides of the pond!  And I should probably clarify, I'm married to an "English major" (her university studies), NOT an "English Major" (an officer in the British military).
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Richard Turner on June 06, 2014, 08:21:30 PM
I've read the thread from the beginning and I'll try and keep my reply on point.

Perhaps some of the weekend warriors are not truly bottom feeders.

Perhaps they smply have bought into the market at a lower price point than you and at a slightly lower level than you.

Perhaps that behringer X32 system routs audio input towards the outputs as effectivly as your M7CL does but his buy in was under 5k, where yours was 25k 6 years back

Perhaps his qsc kw rig is adequate enough for the jobs he underbid you on where your older KF750 system went the last many years, and the sight lines are better and he didnt need a full distro,saving the venue/promoter an electrician call nor did it and eat up 16 sq ft sidestage for racks....

Perhaps his new lights from Blizzard adequatly light the stage and the stands he bought from hercules or ADJ are safe enough and rig faster than the long cans and super towers you bring with you.

Perhaps pulling the stuff around in that dinky trailer behind his personal truck allows him to charge less than you and your 5 ton truck

Perhaps the weekend warrior is satisfied with $30-40 an hour clear after lower expenses for a 1 man job than you are having to pay help to do these marginal jobs.


perhaps perhaps perhaps

Just a few thought I had when reading the first few pages of this.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on June 06, 2014, 09:00:58 PM

I've read the thread from the beginning and I'll try and keep my reply on point.

Perhaps some of the weekend warriors are not truly bottom feeders.

Perhaps they smply have bought into the market at a lower price point than you and at a slightly lower level than you.

Perhaps that behringer X32 system routs audio input towards the outputs as effectivly as your M7CL does but his buy in was under 5k, where yours was 25k 6 years back

Perhaps his qsc kw rig is adequate enough for the jobs he underbid you on where your older KF750 system went the last many years, and the sight lines are better and he didnt need a full distro,saving the venue/promoter an electrician call nor did it and eat up 16 sq ft sidestage for racks....

Perhaps his new lights from Blizzard adequatly light the stage and the stands he bought from hercules or ADJ are safe enough and rig faster than the long cans and super towers you bring with you.

Perhaps pulling the stuff around in that dinky trailer behind his personal truck allows him to charge less than you and your 5 ton truck

Perhaps the weekend warrior is satisfied with $30-40 an hour clear after lower expenses for a 1 man job than you are having to pay help to do these marginal jobs.


perhaps perhaps perhaps

Just a few thought I had when reading the first few pages of this.

And your last line should read

"And perhaps not, in which case you will be getting a call again next year"



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Jason Raboin on June 06, 2014, 11:09:48 PM
I've read the thread from the beginning and I'll try and keep my reply on point.

Perhaps some of the weekend warriors are not truly bottom feeders.

Perhaps they smply have bought into the market at a lower price point than you and at a slightly lower level than you.

Perhaps that behringer X32 system routs audio input towards the outputs as effectivly as your M7CL does but his buy in was under 5k, where yours was 25k 6 years back

Perhaps his qsc kw rig is adequate enough for the jobs he underbid you on where your older KF750 system went the last many years, and the sight lines are better and he didnt need a full distro,saving the venue/promoter an electrician call nor did it and eat up 16 sq ft sidestage for racks....

Perhaps his new lights from Blizzard adequatly light the stage and the stands he bought from hercules or ADJ are safe enough and rig faster than the long cans and super towers you bring with you.

Perhaps pulling the stuff around in that dinky trailer behind his personal truck allows him to charge less than you and your 5 ton truck

Perhaps the weekend warrior is satisfied with $30-40 an hour clear after lower expenses for a 1 man job than you are having to pay help to do these marginal jobs.


perhaps perhaps perhaps

Just a few thought I had when reading the first few pages of this.

Ok, I see your point, but let's say the equipment investment is $20,000.  That might get you an X32, one KW top over one sub per side, 4 wedges, some entry level mics and stands.

So what % do you charge?  For top level gear that will last 10-15 years maybe you can charge 1%, but on MI level gear charging less than 2% would be hard to justify.  So then you need to charge for labor.  I know that changes a lot depending on location, but when you are paying all of your own social security, insurance, etc.,  I can't see charging less than $20/hr.  That's really a net of maybe $12/hr.  Then there's business insurance, vehicle costs, fuel, and maintenance.  So for a 10 hour production day that would be $600.  Charging much less than that is irresponsible.  You can't last without subsidizing you hobby, and worse than that you are potentially taking other sound companies with you on the way down.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 07, 2014, 01:31:55 AM
Charging much less than that is irresponsible.  You can't last without subsidizing you hobby, and worse than that you are potentially taking other sound companies with you on the way down.

You might not like it, but that's how business works.  Not many people complain when supermarkets compete with each other making your grocery shopping cheaper.


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 07, 2014, 02:44:49 AM
You might not like it, but that's how business works.  Not many people complain when supermarkets compete with each other making your grocery shopping cheaper.


Steve.

That's probably a bad analogy, Steve.  Grocers are highly regulated by the USDA, state and local health departments and subject to all manner of commercial regulations including the costs of labor, labor relations and costs of compliance with various employment laws.

Any asshat with a credit card can buy some PA and call himself a sound company.  And that is what the OP was complaining about.  Not so much that others can find a legitimate way of doing the same work for less, but because the folks who underbid him don't have the same cost basis when he's operating in a fully legal, ethical and responsible manner (presumably).  I'm not defending him, but he has a point.

Last year we *thought* we'd come to an agreement for a new holiday event.  The event started with a local business person wanting to bring a particular performer to his town and thought July 4 would be a great time.  The organization he partnered with had no idea what it would cost to rent a stage/roof or mobile stage, what sound and lights would cost, that catering and local transportation would be needed, etc.  They were absolutely aghast when they got quotes.  We worked with them on our fee, giving them a significant discount provisioned on a 3 year agreement.  Ready to take the contract out for signing, the representative wouldn't answer her phone or return our voicemails.  A competitor had gotten to them and made them an even lower price offer.  When we finally got a response, we suggested that a couple of committee members drive past the competitor's place of business and see the stage sitting out in the rain (and had been outdoors all winter) and to require proof of liability and worker's compensation insurance (we know this competitor to be uninsured and possibly uninsurable).  We had insurance binders ready and had listed the event sponsor group as an additional named insured on our liability policy.  The community group was swayed by the insurance issue, and we got the gig (but not without some nasty phone calls that resulted in us calling the police and filing a report regarding the threats made to our owner's family...).

What the OP wants is a level playing field.  The field would be more level if clients insisted on legal, ethical and professional practices, but some potential clients are willing to risk their event, organization or business, or their own family's future over a lower price.  To them I say "I hope it costs you plenty."  Not that I wish to see personal injuries or deaths, but enough property damage to scare the hell out of them for the next time, if there is one.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Richard Turner on June 07, 2014, 08:50:00 AM
I'm familiar with the tax law up here in the frozen north of Canada, Things are different up here than in the USA and Europe.

We have a combined federal and provincial consumers tax in many provinces,(this is seperate from perosnal or corporate income taxes) some are still calculated seperatly. I live in one of the combined ones. the rate is 14% where I am. Sounds steep, yes it sure is but heres the real deal. As a business owner registered under it. I see little effect to my bottom line, the end customer pays for it in the end. On an annual basis we square up our account with the feds. In reality I pay no sales tax on gear bought and inventoried, I'm credited back that amount at year end. I would collect this sales tax on  used equipment at its sale value but if it was scrapped and sent to landfill the govt sees no tax. Any promoter or band that is legit again passes it on to whoever pays their fee and its reflected in the ticket price for the event.

Also the half tax on eat in meals on work day is an allowable expense as is fuel and many other thingson top of that being a cost of business expense on its own.

Most years If I had bought any new gear or had any major repairs My input tax credits are almost even with the tax collected on sales and services sold.

Capital cost allowance for depreciation, here is where things get fun in the frozen north.

Most gear falls under a 30% per year depreciation with a half year calculation on year one (15%) But tools under $500 and computer software other than operating systems are 100% expensed in year one, vehicules are classed based on original value but are similar and pro rated business used is deductable on a personal vehicule. Also home office space use is not difficult, just requires a dedicated space and again based on square footage deductions to electricity, mortgage interest etc apply.

now lets take your $20k of PA gak annual depreciation of it for 5 years, and yes I know you folks use linear formulas down south.

jan1    deprc    dec21
20000  3000   17000
17000  5100   11900
11900  3570   8330
8330    2499   5831
5831    1750   4082
4082    1225   2857

So at the end of 6 years the 20K PA guy has had $17k of tax shelter, this comes right off the top of taxable income, that gear is likely worth 5-7.5k to sell, and that depreciation deduction can be floated , it does not need to be claimed in the year it happened so yeah his "audio hobby" has effectivly tax sheltered somw of his other working income, plus if the 20k was partly borrowed, the interest paid on that money is fully deductable as expense. Its wild work once you really delve into it.  In actual fact weekend warrior man can actually make money at dayjob and weekend warrioring yet end up dropping himself a tax bracket with writeoffs and careful use of our RRSP program (equivalent to your 401k)

Here is the kicker based on a linear model thats 85% depreciation over 84 months so in a perfect world of 100 gigs a year for the weekend warrior anyting over $28.33 a gig towards the gear is outrunning the depreciating value, $17,000/(6 yearsx 50 weeksx 2 gigs).


 You should see some of the DJ kids go pie eyed at the local musc store when I explain why they shouldnt own any gear beyond their dj work station unless they are solidly gigging over 26 times a year. Its far more advantageous not to own if they are actually gigging at a decent rate.

I'm sure most of you cats up here in the big LAB already know all this anyway

I would ASSume the $300 gigs discussed here would be more along the lines of throw and go PA for a single act indoors small room short haul minimal basic lighting things that would be in town , 3 hours or less program, 1 hr strike on each end or less, out the warehouse door 8pm back home in bed at 2am 6 hour evening bar job or the like. typical small PA jobs.

So $300 would work out to $50 for the gear, $50 for the truck to move the stuff across town, (uhaul would rent a van $20 for in town day rent) and $200/6 =$33.25 hr for wages.

This doesnt count the time to do any selling or maintence but hey the gear is all shiny and new and he's a happy guy with a new hobby business, Would any of you offer him a straight up moving PA and mixing gig for $25 hr? straight time

I hope some of you can see the logic in my thoughts.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 07, 2014, 11:08:45 AM
Sometimes (more likely most often) the offer of $300 to go out for the evening is better than the $0 you would get for staying at home.


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on June 07, 2014, 11:30:50 AM
Sometimes (more likely most often) the offer of $300 to go out for the evening is better than the $0 you would get for staying at home.


Steve.

Not if you have to bring more than your headphones and a couple of your favorite mics...
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Kirby Yarbrough on June 07, 2014, 11:31:50 AM
Not if you have to bring more than your headphones and a couple of your favorite mics...

+1
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 07, 2014, 12:05:54 PM
Sometimes (more likely most often) the offer of $300 to go out for the evening is better than the $0 you would get for staying at home.


Steve.

That depends on job costing.  If you're an individual doing all the work and don't pay yourself a wage or salary for the direct gig-related work (on top of wages you should be paying yourself as manager) you will be cash-flow positive but still losing income.  Interestingly it was Eastman Kodak and its business classes offered to photo studio owners that introduced me to this concept; that I should pay myself for ALL of the duties I perform and that I needed to understand the differences between managerial, technical, and artistic duties because the manner of determining compensation is different from skill to skill.  Simply skimming whatever is left over at the end of the month is not compensating oneself fairly and hides the fact that the revenue stream is insufficient to cover costs, so those costs go uncompensated.  Sure, if you're the only owner/employee you can do that but suffer burnout, ruin your marriage and probably be mean to rocks and trees, too.  The point is that this way of operating ignores real costs, and it's the way too many weekend warriors operate.  It's a subsidized hobby that pretends to be a business.

Now if you have employees, sending a gal or guy to a $300 gig is pretty much out of the question.  You'll need to pay them $100-$200; in the USA you match their payroll taxes (just shy of 8%) and have to have workers comp insurance (another 3%-10% of total payroll, maybe more).  Throw in transportation and its related costs.  Those are direct, gig-related costs.  Factor in your fixed costs and you may, in fact, be losing money by working cheap.

I like Dick Rees concept of pricing - how much would it cost me to replace myself/gear if I were to become unavailable after accepting a gig?  If I can't replace myself for $300, I shouldn't be accepting $300 gigs.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: James A. Griffin on June 07, 2014, 12:33:13 PM
I like Dick Rees concept of pricing - how much would it cost me to replace myself/gear if I were to become unavailable after accepting a gig?  If I can't replace myself for $300, I shouldn't be accepting $300 gigs.

Bingo.

If you break your leg the day before the event, the client expects the show to go on.  That means you have get someone with comparable gear and comparable skills to cover it at the price you agreed to.     It's still your show. If the client's quality expectations aren't met, it falls back on you.   If you have to pay more money to meet those expectations, again, it's on you.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 07, 2014, 01:12:37 PM
Now if you have employees, sending a gal or guy to a $300 gig is pretty much out of the question

I agree.  I was thinking of the smaller, one man operation who already owns most, if not all of the equipment. 

I would much rather take it out for $300 than have it sitting in the van for $0.

Obviously, I would like to earn even more than that!

At my day job, we have a fairly complex costing process to price up jobs for customers which takes into account all overheads such as wages, heating, lighting, etc.

Sometimes though, we can make money by ignoring that and giving a lower price based on the fact that we have a suitable window in the manufacturing schedule to do it and that the overheads are already paid regardless of us taking on the job or not. If we are paying our employees anyway, we might as well have them making something instead of waiting around for the next job. And if we are heating and lighting the factory, we might as well have it being productive.

You can't run the whole business like this but you can occasionally make exceptions to the norm.


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on June 07, 2014, 01:20:35 PM

At my day job...


Sound IS my "day job".  If it was yours I'd take your opinions seriously.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 07, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
Now, now Richard. Sound is not my day job even though it's been a full time job most of my life. Do you not take my opinions seriously either?
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on June 07, 2014, 01:33:52 PM
Now, now Richard. Sound is not my day job even though it's been a full time job most of my life. Do you not take my opinions seriously either?

Bob...
I was replying directly to Steve.  You know how to keep it real. 

I also find it less than acceptable to "make exceptions" in pricing policy.  Work out a fair rate and stick by it.  It is just not fair to  customers to charge one person one rate and give another a discount just to keep working.  Your customers paying full boat will not be happy to learn that someone else gets you for less because you didn't have anything else to do... 
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on June 07, 2014, 02:21:53 PM

Bob...
I was replying directly to Steve.  You know how to keep it real. 

I also find it less than acceptable to "make exceptions" in pricing policy.  Work out a fair rate and stick by it.  It is just not fair to  customers to charge one person one rate and give another a discount just to keep working.  Your customers paying full boat will not be happy to learn that someone else gets you for less because you didn't have anything else to do...


+1.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steven Barnes on June 07, 2014, 05:25:21 PM
Bob...
I was replying directly to Steve.  You know how to keep it real. 

I also find it less than acceptable to "make exceptions" in pricing policy.  Work out a fair rate and stick by it.  It is just not fair to  customers to charge one person one rate and give another a discount just to keep working.  Your customers paying full boat will not be happy to learn that someone else gets you for less because you didn't have anything else to do...

Every company I have ever worked for including my own makes exceptions to their pricing, it happens it is part of doing business. When a client we do a lot of business with calls in a favor we usually do it without an issue knowing we will make it up on the 10+ shows they usually have on the books with us.

As far as charging clients different rates, that happens as well with the exception of labor. The more business you do with us the cheaper your price gets  on gear to a certain extent. It is like this with all our vendors we buy from, if I buy $25K worth of amplifiers a month from XXX company i expect to get better pricing than joe blow that buys 3 amps a year.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 07, 2014, 07:07:39 PM
This is another subject, but I don't quote an hourly rate. I quote for the job and pay my help a flat rate. The rest goes back to the company where all expenses above labor are deducted. I don't think I've ever paid someone a flat rate that equaled less than $30 per hour unless it was the grunts, and then no less than $150 for loading in and out a 4 hr gig.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 07, 2014, 07:25:57 PM
The scenario I was thinking of was me sitting at home with a van full of gear outside when someone calls and asks if I could help them out that evening... except that there is only $300 (or £200 in real money) in the budget.

Depending on how I feel, how well I know the person and/or band, I might decide to go and do it... or I might decided not to.  I have a couple of good friends for whom I would do it for free (but that's another debate).

My decision no one else's.

It's just what I might personally do, I'm not suggesting that anyone else should do this although I suspect may would.

It would be nice to have enough regular, well paying work to be in a position to turn down work but the reality is that most people in most trades do not have that luxury and will pick up whatever work they can.  That, at least, is the situation in the UK,  I would be surprised if it was much different in the US.


Steve.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: kristianjohnsen on June 07, 2014, 07:54:01 PM
Bob...
I was replying directly to Steve.  You know how to keep it real. 

I also find it less than acceptable to "make exceptions" in pricing policy.  Work out a fair rate and stick by it.  It is just not fair to  customers to charge one person one rate and give another a discount just to keep working.  Your customers paying full boat will not be happy to learn that someone else gets you for less because you didn't have anything else to do...

Then again...ever buy travel tickets or stay in a hotel?  I don't think I have ever paid the same twice for the same service in those industries!
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on June 07, 2014, 08:06:47 PM
Then again...ever buy travel tickets or stay in a hotel?  I don't think I have ever paid the same twice for the same service in those industries!

What would the hotel or the airline say when you called at the last minute and wanted to pay them diddly?
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: John Chiara on June 07, 2014, 08:24:36 PM
Sound IS my "day job".  If it was yours I'd take your opinions seriously.

I have to agree...:)
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Tracy Garner on June 07, 2014, 09:06:12 PM
I've read the thread from the beginning and I'll try and keep my reply on point.

Perhaps some of the weekend warriors are not truly bottom feeders.

Perhaps they smply have bought into the market at a lower price point than you and at a slightly lower level than you.

Perhaps that behringer X32 system routs audio input towards the outputs as effectivly as your M7CL does but his buy in was under 5k, where yours was 25k 6 years back

Perhaps his qsc kw rig is adequate enough for the jobs he underbid you on where your older KF750 system went the last many years, and the sight lines are better and he didnt need a full distro,saving the venue/promoter an electrician call nor did it and eat up 16 sq ft sidestage for racks....

Perhaps his new lights from Blizzard adequatly light the stage and the stands he bought from hercules or ADJ are safe enough and rig faster than the long cans and super towers you bring with you.

Perhaps pulling the stuff around in that dinky trailer behind his personal truck allows him to charge less than you and your 5 ton truck

Perhaps the weekend warrior is satisfied with $30-40 an hour clear after lower expenses for a 1 man job than you are having to pay help to do these marginal jobs.


perhaps perhaps perhaps

Just a few thought I had when reading the first few pages of this.

IMHO the above is the best comment of the thread...

I'm reminded of a quote by Jim Rohn
"We get paid for bringing value to the marketplace. It takes time to bring value to the marketplace, but we get paid for the value, not the time." -- Jim Rohn

I chuckle whenever I think about how I can rent a 2014 Lincoln Navigator for less than $100 a day fully insured and the local sound reinforcement company wants $300 for a few hours of SOS. Its more difficult for a consumer to see the value in sound equipment when they see some of the same brand name stuff at the consumer electronics store or at the same place where they rent their furniture...


Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Dave Neale on June 07, 2014, 09:25:55 PM

IMHO the above is the best comment of the thread...

I'm reminded of a quote by Jim Rohn
"We get paid for bringing value to the marketplace. It takes time to bring value to the marketplace, but we get paid for the value, not the time." -- Jim Rohn

I chuckle whenever I think about how I can rent a 2014 Lincoln Navigator for less than $100 a day fully insured and the local sound reinforcement company wants $300 for a few hours of SOS. Its more difficult for a consumer to see the value in sound equipment when they see some of the same brand name stuff at the consumer electronics store or at the same place where they rent their furniture...

So does the Lincoln SUV come complete with a driver for $100/day?
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: James A. Griffin on June 07, 2014, 09:29:57 PM
+1. 

Or crew to bring the Navigator to you and pack / unpack all your stuff?  Insurance? (Always an add on)


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Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Tracy Garner on June 07, 2014, 09:33:59 PM
So does the Lincoln SUV come complete with a driver for $100/day?

lol...nope but I've seen dry rental pricing on sound equipment that I totally understand the cost but I can also understand why the average purchaser questions the equipment and labor charge for sound equipment when you consider the apparent difference between the weekend warrior and the full-time sound company. That "perceived value" difference between the two is cloudy for many.
Title: Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
Post by: Mac Kerr on June 07, 2014, 10:14:28 PM
Seriously?

Done.

Mac