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Title: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Ed Silva on August 06, 2014, 10:21:34 AM
Hi guys, new here...

   So I have a 5 piece hobby band. We've been practicing/ playing bars and such for a little over a year. Everyone in the band has a career that is good paying, so this band is strictly for a way to relieve some stress and drink a few beers.
   For a little history, I play guitar, and at the start of this band I already owned a tiny mixer and a pair of mackie th-15's. We played a couple TINY shows with this, then I started building up my gear. I've bought a lot of new and used gear, more because it was in my price range, than because it's the best for me. Right now my gear consists of:
mains:
-Peavey SP118 pair subs
-Peavey SP4 15" tops (older model-bought used)
-peavey isp5000 amp
-peavey cs4000 amp
Main gear:
-Mackie onyx 1640 (ordered but haven't gotten it yet- bought used at a steal-have been using a mackie 1604vlz)
-peavey PV 23XO crossover (free with other crap I bought)
-Alesis microverb (for vocals)
-Behringer 4 channel limiter/gate (have 4 of these, haven't installed in system, since 1: I don't really know how they work, and 2:haven't had the time to play with it, and don't want to throw it in the mix and have problems during a show without getting a chance to practice with it)
Monitors:
-(2) pv2600 amps
-(2) behringer 15" wedges
-(1) peavey 12" wedge
-(1) beat to death Grund 10" monitor

Since our shows are small, or medium size, I think my FOH speakers are sufficient for the size shows we do. We don't make much money from playing, mostly due to the area I live (dive bars and outdoor private parties, etc). I always run the sound myself. I have a wireless guitar rig to run out and see how it sounds throughout the night. I know this is not preferred amongst most guys with experience. I never had any prior experience with PA systems before starting this band.

While a lot of guys try to get the absolute best sounding system that their money can buy, I on the other hand, have to get gear that I can run by myself with no sound guy, but hope to find the best happy medium between quality and hands free, if at all possible.

Is there any gear out there that is a bit more "self sufficient" than others? Although I know nothing about them, I read a little about peavey and dbx making the DSP's that have comp, eq's, etc. built right into them, and somehow can automatically optimize the sound for the speakers being used? Since weight and size is always an issue playing small bars, it sounds like one of these might do a good enough job to not need the other components?

Are there any types of feedback suppresors that work decent without killing the quality? I've never used them, and I've heard that the behringer limiter that I have might do the same thing to and extent, but haven't had a chance to try it yet.

Like I said, I am brand new at running sound, but I can spare to spend a buck or two to buy something new if need be. There are a lot of bands in my area that have one of the band member running sound while they play, and between having constant feedback issues, or sounding like muddy death coming out of the FOH speaker, I'd say even now we have a lot cleaner sound than them, but it's not always consistent, and with my lack of experience, I'm gonna say it's more luck than anything else.

Sorry for the long very first post, but in every forum that I've read, the next ten replies are "what gear are you using" type of posts. Thanks in advance guys!
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Scott Olewiler on August 06, 2014, 10:31:10 AM
Hi guys, new here...

   So I have a 5 piece hobby band. We've been practicing/ playing bars and such for a little over a year. Everyone in the band has a career that is good paying, so this band is strictly for a way to relieve some stress and drink a few beers.
   For a little history, I play guitar, and at the start of this band I already owned a tiny mixer and a pair of mackie th-15's. We played a couple TINY shows with this, then I started building up my gear. I've bought a lot of new and used gear, more because it was in my price range, than because it's the best for me. Right now my gear consists of:
mains:
-Peavey SP118 pair subs
-Peavey SP4 15" tops (older model-bought used)
-peavey isp5000 amp
-peavey cs4000 amp
Main gear:
-Mackie onyx 1640 (ordered but haven't gotten it yet- bought used at a steal-have been using a mackie 1604vlz)
-peavey PV 23XO crossover (free with other crap I bought)
-Alesis microverb (for vocals)
-Behringer 4 channel limiter/gate (have 4 of these, haven't installed in system, since 1: I don't really know how they work, and 2:haven't had the time to play with it, and don't want to throw it in the mix and have problems during a show without getting a chance to practice with it)
Monitors:
-(2) pv2600 amps
-(2) behringer 15" wedges
-(1) peavey 12" wedge
-(1) beat to death Grund 10" monitor

Since our shows are small, or medium size, I think my FOH speakers are sufficient for the size shows we do. We don't make much money from playing, mostly due to the area I live (dive bars and outdoor private parties, etc). I always run the sound myself. I have a wireless guitar rig to run out and see how it sounds throughout the night. I know this is not preferred amongst most guys with experience. I never had any prior experience with PA systems before starting this band.

While a lot of guys try to get the absolute best sounding system that their money can buy, I on the other hand, have to get gear that I can run by myself with no sound guy, but hope to find the best happy medium between quality and hands free, if at all possible.

Is there any gear out there that is a bit more "self sufficient" than others? Although I know nothing about them, I read a little about peavey and dbx making the DSP's that have comp, eq's, etc. built right into them, and somehow can automatically optimize the sound for the speakers being used? Since weight and size is always an issue playing small bars, it sounds like one of these might do a good enough job to not need the other components?

Are there any types of feedback suppresors that work decent without killing the quality? I've never used them, and I've heard that the behringer limiter that I have might do the same thing to and extent, but haven't had a chance to try it yet.

Like I said, I am brand new at running sound, but I can spare to spend a buck or two to buy something new if need be. There are a lot of bands in my area that have one of the band member running sound while they play, and between having constant feedback issues, or sounding like muddy death coming out of the FOH speaker, I'd say even now we have a lot cleaner sound than them, but it's not always consistent, and with my lack of experience, I'm gonna say it's more luck than anything else.

Sorry for the long very first post, but in every forum that I've read, the next ten replies are "what gear are you using" type of posts. Thanks in advance guys!

Ed,

First off, don't buy a feedback destroyer. If you're having issues with feedback some 31-band EQs are in order.   Feedback destroyers can be useful at helping locate problem frequencies, but in practical use they (especially ones from Behringer) cut too wide of a notch in your sound.  31 band EQs are the best tool for that with your systems. 

Second,

Is there a particular problem you're looking to solve?  If you think your mix is good now, why spend money you don't have to.  Sure you can spend alot of money and get a much better sounding PA but will your audience notice?   If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Rick Scofield on August 06, 2014, 11:01:05 AM
Ed,

Sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on things.  I have been in several bands where I played and performed "sound man duties".  It's not easy, but not impossible.

I also went down the road of Gear Acquisition/upgrades from very similar stuff you have listed.

I think (for me at least) the best investments have been in packaging and "infrastructure".  Good cables, good power distribution, good cases and trunks,  all make for a much more professional operation - even if just playing in local dives.

A professionally packaged rig, even if it's used Peavey gear, will make your set up quicker, cleaner, and less troublesome - giving you more time to enjoy performing. 

I've sold off most of the Peavey stuff (still have one PV2600 if you want to make an offer) and gone to mostly powerd mains and wireless IEMs instead of floor monitors.  I've shaved off easily a thousand pounds of amps, racks, cables, and speakers by going with IEMs.

So my suggestion would be to look at any purchase and consider if will either speed up your set up/tear down, save your back by reducing weight, or eliminate several duplicate larger pieces. 

"All-in-one-black-box-fix-your-sound-up-real-good-fetch-your-beer-eliminate-feedback" don't really do any of that stuff perfectly, but a few of the nicer ones (DBX Driverack 260 for example) will do a few good things really well.  But they don't magically replace the role of you as the sound man by doing anything during the show automatically.

You get Bonus points if the band all plays well together at an appropriate volume. 
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Ed Silva on August 06, 2014, 11:17:16 AM
Thanks for the reply. I understand what you're saying. While my sound may be better than a lot of the other bands around here, it still isn't as good as I would like it to be.

I do fight feedback issues at times. I've hesitated on getting a 31 band EQ,mainly because I don't really know anything about different frequencies, and I'd hate to cause one problem while trying to remove another. EQ frequencies such a simple concept that there is some magic setting to keep it at, and only adjust the same one or two bands as needed to get rid of feedback? Like I said, we don't have a sound guy, so I hope to use equipment with very little babysitting involved.

As for the rest of the sound, I don't believe it's as crisp and tight as it could be. I read things that make me believe that having limiters, comps, etc, can help cleaning things up a bit, but have no experience using them.

While I'm not afraid of spending a buck or two on the right piece of equipment, the advise from more experienced guys is cheaper and worth a lot more to me in the long run!
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Steve M Smith on August 06, 2014, 11:27:31 AM
EQ frequencies such a simple concept that there is some magic setting to keep it at, and only adjust the same one or two bands as needed to get rid of feedback? Like I said, we don't have a sound guy, so I hope to use equipment with very little babysitting involved.

Unfortunately not.  You use the graphic equaliser to tame the resonances which are a function of the speaker system and the room so if you set up in a different room, you will most likely need different settings.

The good news is that this is something you set up before you start playing, so if you do it right, it shouldn't need any adjustment during the performance.  You would ideally need a 31 band equaliser for every output you send to amplifiers - so one each for the left and right sends and one for each monitor send.

You can get away with 15 bands but 31 would be better.  Do a Google search for 'ringing out'.  Once you have mastered that, it will all make sense.


Steve.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Larry Sheehan on August 06, 2014, 11:34:00 AM

I do fight feedback issues at times. I've hesitated on getting a 31 band EQ,mainly because I don't really know anything about different frequencies, and I'd hate to cause one problem while trying to remove another.


If you're a guitar player, what helps is to learn the frequency of each string. Then each octave is 1/2 or double the frequency of the string.

Relating frequency to a given string eadgbe can help you to start relating pitch to frequency.

While not 100% dead nuts accurate, you'll be in the ballpark.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Jerome Malsack on August 06, 2014, 11:34:46 AM
Get one EQ for each of the monitor channels in use.   Using them on the monitors only will not be a problem for the sound in the audience area. 

DBX drive rack  is a DSP  crossover/EQ/limiter and such.  Used to control FOH with either 2 or 3 way crossovers.  Your small system will still need the individual EQ for the monitors out.  3 or 4 aux sends.  Aux send out to an EQ and then into the amp and monitor speaker. 
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Ed Silva on August 06, 2014, 12:03:59 PM
does the feedback normally happen in the same few frequencies?
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Steve M Smith on August 06, 2014, 12:13:47 PM
does the feedback normally happen in the same few frequencies?

I have found that often there is something around 250Hz then something around 800HZ to 1KHz - However, the real answer to your question is no.  You cannot rely on the same problem frequencies at every venue.  Therefore, you cannot just set your graphics and hope they will work in every venue.


Steve.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Rick Powell on August 06, 2014, 12:49:18 PM
I do fight feedback issues at times. I've hesitated on getting a 31 band EQ,mainly because I don't really know anything about different frequencies, and I'd hate to cause one problem while trying to remove another. EQ frequencies such a simple concept that there is some magic setting to keep it at, and only adjust the same one or two bands as needed to get rid of feedback? Like I said, we don't have a sound guy, so I hope to use equipment with very little babysitting involved.

As for the rest of the sound, I don't believe it's as crisp and tight as it could be. I read things that make me believe that having limiters, comps, etc, can help cleaning things up a bit, but have no experience using them.

While I'm not afraid of spending a buck or two on the right piece of equipment, the advise from more experienced guys is cheaper and worth a lot more to me in the long run!

There are two opposite needs staring themselves in the face here, from what I can tell.  One, the desire to improve the quality and control of the sound, and two, the desire to do this as simply and foolproof as possible.  And adding the qualifier that both ends are to be obtained as inexpensively as possible.  This is not an easy ask, balancing all these concerns.

Buying cheap limiters, compressors, gates, EQs, etc. and sticking them in the chain is not necessarily going to make your sound better, and every one introduces 3 potential failure points (the unit itself and the cables going to and from).  I don;t know how many walk up sound gigs I have done where I find a mess of Alesis 3630 comp/gates in the path (possibly the worst piece of outboard ever made excluding the original Behringer "feedback destroyer") and the first thing I do is try to figure out how to get it out of the main mix chain ASAP if it is in there.  To me, simplifying your setup while gaining better control would be putting the least amounts of your instruments thru the PA as possible, learning to use placement of your mics, speakers and stage gear to maximum acoustic advantage, learning your equipment inside out and its limitations, and only then looking at strategically investing in pieces of kit that will actually give you more quality and control.  if you are considering EQ's at all, please go for 31 bands, and shoot for quality like Ashly or the mid-line dbx stuff.

We have two dbx 2231's in our monitor rack and rarely need to adjust more than one or 2 bands if any; of course, our stuff just doesn't feed back much because we use tight pattern mics and very good quality monitors that cut thru the stage volume.  The sliders are basically set at zero and just used to cut if there is a ringing frequency.  After a while of trial and error, and using the philosophy of don't touch it unless there is a problem, we know what bands to try if we hear something.  Also agree with the philosophy of "ringing out the monitors" mentioned above, although our system is so feedback-free that we don't really have the need to do it in most venues.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Tomm Williams on August 06, 2014, 01:41:29 PM
You can achieve a great deal of feedback control by learning about speaker placement relative to microphone pick up pattern. Just moving a few things around on stage can tame (or create) problems. Processing like reverb or compression can also add issues if not done properly. Don't overlook microphone selection also as some mics have less GBF than others. Really a lot you can do without spending any money, just learning how to run the system.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Ed Silva on August 06, 2014, 01:49:45 PM
All good stuff here guys! Actually I'm a bit surprised about all the posts related to feedback, yet I'm getting the impression that no one really thinks that comps, limiters, etc. will give me any benefit in sound QUALITY, or at least, with the existing equipment and experience I have right now.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 06, 2014, 02:59:17 PM
All good stuff here guys! Actually I'm a bit surprised about all the posts related to feedback, yet I'm getting the impression that no one really thinks that comps, limiters, etc. will give me any benefit in sound QUALITY, or at least, with the existing equipment and experience I have right now.
Think of comps and limiters and gates (oh my!) as condiments or seasoning.  If you don't know how to cook the meal the spices don't matter.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Chris Hindle on August 06, 2014, 03:42:41 PM
All good stuff here guys! Actually I'm a bit surprised about all the posts related to feedback, yet I'm getting the impression that no one really thinks that comps, limiters, etc. will give me any benefit in sound QUALITY, or at least, with the existing equipment and experience I have right now.
Squashed and limited does NOT equal quality.
Mic -> Mixer -> Amp -> Speaker  will allways give the best quality. Anything you add to the signal chain takes away from that.
These are tool to solve a particular set of problems.
If you don't have these problems, and don't need these tools, the quality will be better.
2 really important things to grok.
1) Loudest thing at the mic wins. Choose you mic and location wisely.
2) Point the speakers where the people are.
Get these 2 right, and many "tools" are not needed.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: duane massey on August 07, 2014, 12:27:25 AM
More info would be good: what do you run thru the system, both FOH and monitors? How many monitor mixes? What type of mics, and for what purpose? What type of music?

There are no "magic" boxes out there. The Driveracks and similar are promoted to be close, but truly don't do much on their own if you don't know how to set them up.
What do you feel is lacking in your sound? If it seems dull, look at your channel EQ settings first before you do anything else. If your EQ settings are odd-looking (all turned full up or down, or all set at 12 o'clock) be very suspicious. If you don't already have them engaged use the lo-cut (or HPF) filters on all vocal channels, as well as anything else that doesn't have much low freq content.
Don't drive anything into clipping. Channels, board outputs, power amps. Check your crossover settings.
+1 on monitor speaker placement, makes a real difference.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 07, 2014, 02:01:03 AM
All good stuff here guys! Actually I'm a bit surprised about all the posts related to feedback, yet I'm getting the impression that no one really thinks that comps, limiters, etc. will give me any benefit in sound QUALITY, or at least, with the existing equipment and experience I have right now.

A few other things that may help, some of these I wish I had been told years ago:

1 - Each 3db move of the eq know doubles the power required in that frequency range.  Especially in small form factor (1U) EQ's a little movement is a lot

2 - Play some music through your PA you know at home.  Cut each EQ band all the way to the bottom one at a time.  Listen to the effect it has on the music.  Wait for each instrument in the mix to have a solo so you can hear the impact on different instruments.  Ditto with different vocal ranges

3 - Comp's and limiters are for later I agree.  But gates are for now.  A gate is what it sounds like, when the sound rises above the level set on the gate it opens and lets the sound out.  You can then set how long it stays open and how quick it closes.  Gates on kick mics, acoustic guitars and vocals will keep the mic closed until it is needed, eliminating a source of feedback and cleaning up your mix.

4 - Lower your stage level, IEM's were suggested.  All of them don't have to be wireless.  Getting all that noise off the stage will make setting the gates simpler.

5 - DI your bass guitar

6 - I know you got a deal on the mixer but a Mackie DL-1608 with iPad control has gates and compressors + EQ's on every channel.  It also works well with the IEM's as you can quickly setup each send to the monitor mix.  The musicians can actually control their own via an iPxx app if they want.  The DL-1608 will simplify your signal chain and your life.  I think you will find the graphical interface presentation of the high pass, gates and comps.

7 - Don't be scared to experiment

8 - Did you mention what mics you use?  If so I forgot if you did no need to repost.

Most important have fun.

Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Ed Silva on August 07, 2014, 04:22:02 AM
The mics the singers are using are (i believe) audix OM-3. there are a total of 4 mics for this on stage. With the mackie 1604, I had 2 monitor mixes for 4 monitors. on an outdoor show, basically everything (4 vox, 2guitars, bass) goes through monitors, while all that plus drums through FOH (depends on size of outdoor show for how many drum mics I run).
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Steve Oldridge on August 07, 2014, 12:01:30 PM
The mics the singers are using are (i believe) audix OM-3. there are a total of 4 mics for this on stage. With the mackie 1604, I had 2 monitor mixes for 4 monitors. on an outdoor show, basically everything (4 vox, 2guitars, bass) goes through monitors, while all that plus drums through FOH (depends on size of outdoor show for how many drum mics I run).
Ed, ugh...   keep it simple. The more you add into your monitor wedges, the more chance for feedback sources.. and instrument volume wars.

Since you are not IEM, only put what you NEED to hear thru the monitors.. in your case.. I'd say vox only - unless the guitar players need to "feel" each others sound, but then, it's likely going to be a CF competing with each other. But definitely NO DRUMS and NO BASS in the monitors. 
If guitar amps are direct/line-out or mic'ed to PA, sit them on the side of the stage (if you can) and point them up-and-back, diagonally across (front to back, away from mics). Lets both of them hear each other, keep stage volumes lower and give you more control of the FOH mix, and KEEP them OUT of the monitor mix.

You appear have enough PA, so let it do it's job. Keep it simple and keep stage volumes low.. you'll sound much better...

PS: my current band just upgrade from a similar Mackie mixer to an X32 Producer and went all IEM's. Each channel has gate, comp, EQ, etc.  No stage wedges to carry, no monitor amps either. Stage is so much cleaner without the wedges, and has more room. Plus, with IEM's you can hear everything.. really helped with the harmonies.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Doug Fowler on August 07, 2014, 02:48:16 PM
The mics the singers are using are (i believe) audix OM-3. there are a total of 4 mics for this on stage. With the mackie 1604, I had 2 monitor mixes for 4 monitors. on an outdoor show, basically everything (4 vox, 2guitars, bass) goes through monitors, while all that plus drums through FOH (depends on size of outdoor show for how many drum mics I run).

OK, you have hyper cardioid microphones.  There is a spike in the pattern on axis directly behind the microphone.  Your monitors should be placed to the side, not directly behind. 

Look at the freq response and polars and you will see what I mean.

http://www.audixusa.com/docs_12/specs_pdf/OM3.pdf

This mic is greatly "scooped" and has a lot of presence peak. 

Careful monitor placement and EQ will be required.  There is a reason 58s are still so popular.  With a decent quality monitor, just a couple of cuts with the monitor directly behind the mic gets it done, for close to half a century.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Brian Jojade on August 07, 2014, 05:29:31 PM
The 2 pieces of gear that make the most difference in an audio chain are the microphones and the speakers.  The Peavey speakers you have aren't the greatest in the world, but they are better than many out there.  Should be more than enough for you.

The mics you have are fine, but as doug mentioned, their pattern can create feedback issues with a normal monitor in front of the singer approach.  SM58s are kind of magic in working with very little effort.  They are good, easy to use mics.

As far as the rest of the gear, if you don't know what it does, or don't have a specific solution you're trying to solve, don't use it.  Yeah, it's fun to have a rack full of gear, but if it's not solving a problem, it's a waste of resources.

For a small band, where you're running sound, less is more.  For not a lot of money, you can get a digital board that does EVERYTHING you need.  Mics plug into the mixer.  Mixer plugs into the  amps, amps plug into the speakers.  That's it.  Don't over think it.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Lee Douglas on August 07, 2014, 05:48:41 PM
A few other things that may help, some of these I wish I had been told years ago:

2 - Play some music through your PA you know at home.  Cut each EQ band all the way to the bottom one at a time.  Listen to the effect it has on the music.  Wait for each instrument in the mix to have a solo so you can hear the impact on different instruments.  Ditto with different vocal ranges


But understand that an EQ on your main outputs or inserts is not a tone control for one instrument, because everything is going through it.  If you need more tone control than is provided on the board EQ, first try improving it at the source.  Then mic placement.  If that fails (and it shouldn't) you can add an EQ on the channel insert that will affect only that input.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 07, 2014, 07:10:58 PM
But understand that an EQ on your main outputs or inserts is not a tone control for one instrument, because everything is going through it.  If you need more tone control than is provided on the board EQ, first try improving it at the source.  Then mic placement.  If that fails (and it shouldn't) you can add an EQ on the channel insert that will affect only that input.

Lee, out of context it looks like I wasn't communicating what I intended.  I suggested this as an exercise to learn the audio spectrum and the effect of removing that frequency.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Tommy Peel on August 08, 2014, 12:08:27 AM
Lots of good stuff here, so there's not much I can add at the moment. I do mix on an Onyx 1640 regularly though so if you need any specific help with it when it comes in feel free to PM me and we can trade email and/or phone numbers. I think you'll like the 1640; it's definitely a step up from a 1604 in every way. I do agree though that digital is much nicer. :-)

Have a great weekend,
Tommy
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Lee Douglas on August 08, 2014, 12:21:40 PM
Lee, out of context it looks like I wasn't communicating what I intended.  I suggested this as an exercise to learn the audio spectrum and the effect of removing that frequency.

In re-reading your post I'm not sure it was clear that it was an exercise in context, but in any case, as the poster is by his own admission, new to this, I wanted to be sure that it didn't get taken the wrong way.  It's a mistake that I made myself with my first sound system a (ahem) long time ago, trying to get a better kick drum sound by using the main EQ and mucking up everything else in the process and not understanding why.
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: thomas jones on August 08, 2014, 01:33:05 PM
Little off topic but IEMs have been mentioned several times...What are the best IEMs brands so I only do it once?
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: lindsay Dean on August 08, 2014, 02:27:51 PM
Little off topic but IEMs have been mentioned several times...What are the best IEMs brands so I only do it once?

  If i remember correctly we used sp3's way back when, the horns are very harsh
 (like an air hose mini chainsaw combo)
we solved this pretty well by biamping them and attenuating, they sounded much better than the passive xover ever did.
they actually sounded pretty good w/our subs
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Tom Roche on August 08, 2014, 04:31:32 PM
Little off topic but IEMs have been mentioned several times...What are the best IEMs brands so I only do it once?
Whole packages?  Wireless or wired?  Just the buds?

As for buds, I've been happy with the $90 Shure SE215.  I drum, so don't have the need for a wireless system.  These buds fit my ears decently and sound plenty good for my purposes, so for me they are the right tool at a cheap price.  If my band ever goes exclusively with IEMs, then I'll step up to higher quality with custom ear impressions.  Westone, Alien Ears, Ultimate Ears, 1964 Ears, and JH Audio all make quality buds.  There are other brands I can't think of at the moment. 

I can't speak to whole IEM systems, but the one piece of advice that was emphatically stated is to have a quality limiter.  You definitely don't want to damage your ears and you can't always control what other people do. 
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Steve Oldridge on August 11, 2014, 10:41:45 AM
Little off topic but IEMs have been mentioned several times...What are the best IEMs brands so I only do it once?
That's a whole other Pandora's box.. Thomas!  I'm just scratching the surface with this post.

There's 2 parts to IEM's..  how you get the signal to your ears, and what you put in your ears to listen with. As with all music gear, there are the low and upper end sets of equipment and you need to decide on a budget and what works for you.  Keep in mind that there is basically wired vs wireless. Wired, you are connected to the sound source by wire (like headphones) and wireless leaves you free to move about.

Generally speaking, wireless is higher initial expense, but easier to use/maintain. Transmitters packages (includes xmitter, receiver and usually cheap buds) range from lower end Galaxy Systems (http://"http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AS900SysK8/") for $200 to the upper end Shure PSM1000 (http://"http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/P10TR425-L8/") at $5k.  In my experience, the upper end I have heard/used are the Senn EW300's, but they all come with single driver, universal fit ears.

My band recently bought 4 * PSM200 systems with the E215 single driver buds included. Singer and drummer are fine with them, but both guitars complain that they lose the lead sounds in them when they play. They are both considering custom molds with at least triple-drivers. Here again.. price range is huge..  up to $1200 for base models.. with up to 8+ drivers in each ear.. each type/set with their own sound (EQ) signature.  As an FYI - we all are wireless INBOUND and use Line6 G-series devices.

Me? ..  I already had a Carvin EM900 rack-mount system (used the buds once to test and put them back in the box) and my own custom-mold 1964 Quads (4 drivers per ear) which just pound out the bass (I play bass in this band) and provide plenty of sound stage separation even in mono.  So I'm a happy camper at gigs.

My point being that, quality goes up with price. Each musician needs a device and I recommend they invest in custom molds for the buds. Single drivers work for some. My old Westone UM-1's worked ($150 when I bought them) but I didn't know what I was missing until my 1964 Quad's arrived!

Decide on a budget and go from there...

some info sources:
https://soundforums.net/threads/28-IEM-s-for-dummies-the-poor-and-the-well-off
http://www.thomann.de/gb/onlineexpert_211_1.html
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/iem-setup-thread.1018925/
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10263.0
Title: Re: Looking at things a different way...
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on August 11, 2014, 11:51:07 AM
I do fight feedback issues at times. I've hesitated on getting a 31 band EQ,mainly because I don't really know anything about different frequencies, and I'd hate to cause one problem while trying to remove another. EQ frequencies such a simple concept that there is some magic setting to keep it at, and only adjust the same one or two bands as needed to get rid of feedback? Like I said, we don't have a sound guy, so I hope to use equipment with very little babysitting involved.

About learning the "31" frequency bands...

Do this outside, away from any reflective walls.

1. Borrow a 31 band EQ

2. Insert it just before your power amp. 
Set all EQs on mixer to flat.

3. Connect 1 SP4. Play your favorite test song in mono.

4. Adjust amp for a low, comfortable level.

5. Using Bink's test tones, play each tone in order.

6. Start with 40hz.
The SP4 will have "some" output at 40. 

7. Do not boost 40.
The SP4 will come to life around 50

8. Listen to 50, 60, 63,80, 90 and 100, and adjust the appropriate EQ slider to make the loudness sound the same for all.
In general, you should not have to boost any frequency, but some frequencies will "jump out at you" and will need to be cut. 

9. Continue through to at least 1250hz
I, personally, can't much hear much higher that; but then I'm 65.
I predict that there will be  about 5 1/3 band sliders that will need to be cut to make it all sound the same.
You may have to adjust the power amp to keep the level comfortable. 
If you do,  then you will have to re-compare all of the frequencies. 

10. If you can hear the effect of moving the 16k slider, you get a GOLD STAR!

11. Go back and compare/adjust all of the tones from 40-1250 until the loudness is the same to you. Do this at least 3 times.  Play your  favorite test song again.  Crank it up. 
You should notice the improvement.

-Dennis

Bink's test tones link:  http://www.binkster.net/extras.shtml