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 1 
 on: Today at 03:06:03 pm 
Started by Sam Roberts - Last post by David Pedd
ok I'm thinking you guys are maybe too high in your standards...

LOL!  Amen!  That's why I love coming here and reading/learning.  These guys/gals know their stuff.

 2 
 on: Today at 03:05:07 pm 
Started by Sam Roberts - Last post by Kevin McDonough
hey

Like everyone else, I have to agree that the speakers were probably inadequate for the job.

In terms of providing vocal reproduction for a loud rock band such as you describe, the speakers would probably be a bit small anyway and you'd really struggle to get even vocals up above a loud band sufficiently, but I don't think in that case they'd have broken in the same way.

I think the problem in this case was probably low frequency and clipping.

Every speaker, without exception, needs a filter to take out the lowest frequencies. For subwoofers this can be somewhere around 30-40Hz, for top speakers anything from 60- 100Hz. Playing frequencies below the limit that the speaker can handle can very quickly cause the speaker cone to overexcurse (move in and out much more than it should) to the point where it can cause damage.  Again, simple vocals wouldn't have caused this too much, there isn't a massive amount of low frequency. But electronic is unfortunately famous for its low frequency content, much more than other types of music.

Quote
the performer did not have total control over our PA but was plugged through our mixer which was at 3/4s volume and the power amp was at 1/3 on it's db knob....

Secondly, I think this is a huge problem, but something that is often a little counter-intuitive without some experience or sound knowledge.

When putting together a PA system, it's always recommended that you buy a power amp that is around 1.5 or 2x the power rating of your speakers. Some people initially baulk at this, wondering why you don't buy a power amp that has the same rating as the speakers, but headroom is the key.

If the amp is the same power rating as the speakers, then usually to get the volume you'd like you end up running the amp close to it's limits, which results in distortion and clipping being added into the signal being sent to the speakers.

Alternatively, if you have a power amp 1.5-2x the size of the speakers, and run them at sensible power levels, you know that the amplifier is running comfortably within its limits you are providing CLEAN, undistorted power to the speakers. While, with the bigger amp, some spikes or loud parts of the music may be a little over the power rating of the speakers, as long as it's clean signal (that's high passed properly as in the other point) it'll handle these fine.  Even at a lower volume, a distorted signal will cause a massive heat build up in the voice coil and be much more damaging.

Most professional sound engineers would have amplifiers fully turned up for the most part (unless the had a reason not to) and would have just controlled the volume with the mixer. But by only turning the amplifier up to 1/3 of its volume you may have artificially put yourself in the position where the amp was clipping it's signal as the DJ's/musicians turned things up at their end to try and get the appropriate volume, and so burned out the voice coils.

(DJ's can also be equally guilty of clipping things at their own mixer and control surface, the often run things into the red, and this would have had much the same effect, and been compounded by you having your amp set too low.)


In any case, I echo everyone else's advice in that powered speakers have all of this taken care of. The have appropriate filters and EQ built in and are largely idiot proof. While of course poor handling can physically damage them, at least in terms of the music signal sent to them you need to do something especially silly to blow or damage them.

 3 
 on: Today at 03:01:38 pm 
Started by Gian Luca Cavalliini - Last post by Gian Luca Cavalliini
Sounds like you’ve got your work cut out for you! Is this a one-off or a repeating gig?

I sounds to me like you need to have another zone of coverage in the far field.

Are there any delay stacks or hangs you can mount an antenna to? RF over Fiber might work if coax runs are too lengthy and impractical.

Hi Jordan!
One-off show

Yes, I'd like to have two zone of coverage just for the two main artists that will go outside the stage (two catwalks, SL and SR). Not a problem with handelds, but first time with IEMs in a stadium...
Audience is 360 degrees, all around, no delay tower.

RF over Fiber was my first thought to put antennas under the rooftop, but when i saw the light plot I changed idea...  ::)

 4 
 on: Today at 02:50:55 pm 
Started by Sam Roberts - Last post by Sam Roberts
ok I'm thinking you guys are maybe too high in your standards for what I'm operating. Gonna just got with the JBL EONs maybe a 15" that I found used for a good price instead... but no I can't afford 2 $500 speakers!

 5 
 on: Today at 02:39:21 pm 
Started by Sam Roberts - Last post by Paul G. OBrien
so I'm thinking of buying two of these as they are (barely ) in budget http://www.proaudiostar.com/jbl-eon610.html

thoughts? keep in mind it's a very small room
Barely adequate for vocals only with accoustic instruments and poor sounding at that. They're still overpriced at that sale price IMO.

and yeah budget is, unfortunately, going to be $7-800 max including mixer.
Then buy 1 good(Yamaha DXR, JBL PRX) powered 12" or 15" speaker and a cheap desktop mixer. You have to realize the smaller PA speakers(8's and 10's) generally produce very little bass and even some of the 12's are weak in this regard, so any of these are going to be anywhere from marginal to no good at all for fullrange electronic music.

 6 
 on: Today at 02:25:51 pm 
Started by Sam Roberts - Last post by Sam Roberts
Thanks so much to all for reading my situation and replying! I am pretty annoyed at my friend and roommate who each talked me out of my original idea of powered speakers into this idea to ostensibly save a few bucks (their hearts were in the right place but they were WRONG and I was RIGHT haha).. perhaps needless to say I have lost some (or all) faith in their knowledge of working a power amp PA. Like I said we do use one in our practice space.

definitely bummed to have wrecked my friends speakers too but we're going to figure that out and hopefully get them repaired...

so I'm thinking of buying two of these as they are (barely ) in budget http://www.proaudiostar.com/jbl-eon610.html

thoughts? keep in mind it's a very small room

and yeah budget is, unfortunately, going to be $7-800 max including mixer. so, not ideal, I know, and I think used  or the above will be the way to go.

Luke Geis you're right! me and my friends are total amateurs, trying to share music with our community, and totally open to advice and new info. so no need to insult and belittle, but whatever makes you feel better about yourself  :)

 7 
 on: Today at 02:14:35 pm 
Started by Sam Roberts - Last post by Luke Geis
So you bought an amp that is no longer available and is discontinued as per the link you provided. To top it off you have no idea how a PA works and you decided to go the most complicated and actually most expensive way. Your friends must have something to sell you, or are as naive as you are?

A passive systems costs more than any comparable powered system to build. The interconnect cables and peripherals such as crossovers, and system DSP all add to the cost. With a powered speaker, 95% of that work is done already, all you simply need to do is connect a signal cable and power. If you buy a powered speaker with some built in DSP / EQ features, you can stave off even more peripheral gear.

The buy once, cry once term comes to mind. If you want cheap crap, you get cheap crap. If you actually want something to work, you buy stuff that you know will work. Not knowing what your budget is, we can't even begin to assume what to steer you towards. A cheap system to me starts at $500 per speaker and that is what I consider to be as low as I could possibly accept to go. For $500 a speaker you can build a pretty serious PA. That is also factoring a powered speaker for that $500. You CANNOT beat a powered speaker these days. They have all the dumb dumb work done for you. The only way to blow them up is to straight up abuse them.

A passive system requires an amp, the interconnect cables ( speaker cables are roughly $1 per ft. So plan on $100 for two cables ) and amps that have some or all the DSP in them are not cheap, often costing around $600+. The truth is that by the time you build a passive system, it will often cost more than a similar self powered one and all of the complicated work is left for you to do. So in your case, self powered anything will be better than what you have.

To address the actual questions:

1. Yes, you are. You are the operator.

2. Yes and no. His wanton disregard to the likely ugly sound and burning smell, red lights etc. was a factor, but revert to point 1.

3. Possibly, but I am leaning towards not really. Tired speakers may have reduced performance, but not necessarily are on a timer. If they are abused before blowing up, they will still work fairly normally until abused again, in which case they may give up the ghost then.

A speaker that has never been abused can essentially work forever provided it's still in one piece and doesn't crumble apart when used. A speaker is not a very complicated thing. It is literally a coil of wire around a tube / former that is supported by the spider and the cone with the coil of wire inside a gap that has a magnet around it. There are only two things that can go wrong. The coil burns up from abuse, delaminates from its former and subsequently rubs inside the gap, causing a break in the coil to which no connection = no worky. The next issue is simply that the coil / leads breaks at some point or another and there is no longer a connection, so it no longer works.

My advise: Give us a budget ( a real one ) and a goal. You have outlined your goal already, so that helps a lot. You need a PA that will beat a band in a small room. You need a real PA that is capable of roughly 130db peak or more to do that without stressing it too much. This ability will start around the $500 mark new and possibly close to the $250 mark used per speaker. The mixer you are looking at is fine, actually any mixer at all is going to work fine. I would use the PA for unamplified instruments only, like vocals, acoustic guitars or keys, if they don't have a keyboard amp. Keep it simple, as simple as you can.

The lowest I would go is the $350 mark. The EON 612 is a little low in output at 126db, but loud enough and is only $450 new! It has features that really will help such as onboard EQ and Bluetooth. The next step up that still has some EQ and is feature filled is the Electro Voice ELX112P. It goes for about the $550-$600 mark new and is a killer speaker. The EV ZLX-12P is an on par speaker to the JBL EON and is even cheaper still at $350 new and has EQ as well. I wouldn't go any lower in cost than that. Finding a used unit of these will be difficult mostly because these units are good enough that most are not looking to offload them, but there are several used ZLX's on ebay for less than $600 for a pair! The ELX ( the one I would go for ) can be found used for around $800 a pair.

 8 
 on: Today at 02:07:41 pm 
Started by Sam Roberts - Last post by Debbie Dunkley

Originally I had thought to buy powered speakers and a mixer as I thought this would be straightforward and fool-proof but in the name of bang for buck, and after consulting with a friend, I decided to go with power amp/powered mixer/passive speaker combo. I bought a power amp (specs here: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CS2000--peavey-cs-2000)


You  should have gone with your first thought. Powered speakers give you far more protection from potential abuse, more features and configurability probably too. Add that to the ease of set up and you should take everyone's advice and return the power amp. Also those Peavey speakers you linked to won't get you close to the sound quality of a pair of powered DXR's. I realize budget is important but you might need to apply the 'buy once cry once' logic here.

 9 
 on: Today at 01:59:01 pm 
Started by boburtz - Last post by Mike Caldwell
Start with some test tone sweeps while listening for buzz and over tones would be a start. It would be a trial and error processes as you add or remove shims.

You want to start the tones about an octave below their normal crossover frequency and go up from there, you want to drive them them to a little bit of output but nothing too crazy.

I have no idea about your RCF drivers but I want to add that some driver body / replacement diaphragm combinations require from the start that shims be used. Such as a new version diaphragm that works on a few different driver bodies some may or may not shims.

 10 
 on: Today at 01:35:04 pm 
Started by boburtz - Last post by boburtz
We just picked up a few more KF730s on the used market and the HF sounds (and measures) pretty bad. I took a couple of them apart and notice that there are no shims in the HF components. All of my existing inventory has shims. It's worth noting that the "new" boxes are actually newer than my existing boxes, so maybe there is a different design going on? I am thinking that somewhere along the life of these boxes someone changed the diaphragms and neglected to replace the shims. RCF has instructions on determining the necessary quantity of shims but it requires comparing the existing diaphragm measurement to the new diaphragm, then adjusting the quantity of shims accordingly. Since there are no existing shims to use as a baseline, how would I know how many shims (if any) to install? Anybody?

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