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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: andy foster on November 10, 2017, 08:32:32 AM
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Help me choose a sub woofer dxs18 vs jbl818xlf vs thomann 118a
the thing thats bugging me is that i can get 4 thomann subs for the price of 2 of the named brands give or take a little, and would have double the power and more flexability for hire out purposes.
yamaha dxs18 Band Pass https://www.thomann.de/gb/yamaha_dxs_18.htm
JBL818xlf bass reflex https://www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_prx818xlfw.htm
thomann horn loaded sub https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_achat_118_a.htm
and if the thomann subs are decent, then a little more money would lead me onto this system which appears to be a great buy for £3200 as the individual price per speaker adds up to £4000.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_achat_rock_n_roll_bundle_aktiv.htm?ref=search_prv_7
thoughts on this are much appriciated as im ready for my next purchase but struggling some what.
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Andy, all three will sound completely different from each other. Better have a listen to each and decide for yourself. Best would be to find them at rental houses, and try them for a weekend.
Chris.
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Andy, all three will sound completely different from each other. Better have a listen to each and decide for yourself. Best would be to find them at rental houses, and try them for a weekend.
Chris.
got no way of listening to the thomann or jbl at this point, i was all set on the yamaha after reading endless internet/specs. would be taking a risk on this particular thomann sub, but having heard alot of thomann achat gear in bars that i work at i feel they must be good!
in a right quandry atm ???
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got no way of listening to the thomann or jbl at this point, i was all set on the yamaha after reading endless internet/specs. would be taking a risk on this particular thomann sub, but having heard alot of thomann achat gear in bars that i work at i feel they must be good!
in a right quandry atm ???
i forgot to mention the rig will be for house music playback only.
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Hi Andy, the Yamaha DXS18 is my choice as i have 4 of them and they amaze me every time i use them. I have used JBL before for subs PRX618XLF and VRX918s and they put out more bass then them easily on all frequencies. What i like most about them is that they sound good in front of them, middle of dance floor and back of room. With the JBL i would start losing low end in the middle of room and back of room its almost gone. I think the Yamaha is more focused on how it puts out the bass but it sounds massive and i have been asked to turn it down a lot of times. I have been told early on if you can hear the bass rattle the building outside your playing at then your rig is solid, i walk outside and you can hear the bass fill the building. For tops JBL all they way as i like there sound for highs and mids. The Yamaha are built like tanks, real plywood and super stable, they won't move at all. I would like to get 4 more just to see what that would sound like. I recently used them for a EDM event, outdoors and everyone was amazed at the sound only 4 of them was putting out and they don't overheat or turn off. Thanks Derek DDS Productions
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I would suspect that the DXS will be the best bang for the buck, but it’s band pass so always going to be a bit “one note bass”.
The JBLs have a lot of support here and I have SRX 828’s, which for the money are probably unbeatable. The Thomann is a budget box, you get what you pay for.
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This is not a sound quality test; however, if you look at the frequency response curves:
DXS18: https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/9/811869/dxs_frequency_response.pdf
and PRX 718XLF: https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL_PRX718XLF_v5.pdf
It is pretty clear that the XLF's have a much flatter response curve (which would be expected considering the two different designs these subs use).
Having said that, I have heard more than a few people prefer the pure output of the DXS18 despite its obvious frequency bump.
For me, the weight of my XLF's is so pleasing that I can't stomach the thought of swapping them out..... and they have more than enough output for my purposes.
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Traditional horn-loaded subs (as I suspect the Thomann model is) usually need to work in multiples to perform well - the combined mouth area is what helps them work, since most bass horns are built under-sized for use in singles.
If you'll always take all of the subs, I'd get the horns. If you'll want to use 1, 2 or 4 as you like, go for a reflex or bandpass sub.
Chris
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The Yamaha DXS-18 is great sounding sub. Lots of SPL and very even frequency response. (The engineers at Nexo obviously know what their doing) I haven’t heard the Thomas sub but the JBL XLF is not in the same league.
Help me choose a sub woofer dxs18 vs jbl818xlf vs thomann 118a
the thing thats bugging me is that i can get 4 thomann subs for the price of 2 of the named brands give or take a little, and would have double the power and more flexability for hire out purposes.
yamaha dxs18 Band Pass https://www.thomann.de/gb/yamaha_dxs_18.htm
JBL818xlf bass reflex https://www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_prx818xlfw.htm
thomann horn loaded sub https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_achat_118_a.htm
and if the thomann subs are decent, then a little more money would lead me onto this system which appears to be a great buy for £3200 as the individual price per speaker adds up to £4000.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_achat_rock_n_roll_bundle_aktiv.htm?ref=search_prv_7
thoughts on this are much appriciated as im ready for my next purchase but struggling some what.
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The Yamaha DXS-18 is great sounding sub. Lots of SPL and very even frequency response. (The engineers at Nexo obviously know what their doing) I haven’t heard the Thomas sub but the JBL XLF is not in the same league.
jbl is worse or better than the yamaha?
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jbl is worse or better than the yamaha?
They are different in ways that don't show up on a spec sheet. You will need to listen to them to decide if which flavor, if either, is to your preference.
Also note that if you're using powered speakers from different brands you will need to look at how each implements filters and which box they are in... If your top boxes don't have a HPF for use with subs, and your subs do not handle that, you will need external processing.
Sometimes it's not about how loud individual speakers can get, it's about how they deploy and work together...
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They are different in ways that don't show up on a spec sheet. You will need to listen to them to decide if which flavor, if either, is to your preference.
Also note that if you're using powered speakers from different brands you will need to look at how each implements filters and which box they are in... If your top boxes don't have a HPF for use with subs, and your subs do not handle that, you will need external processing.
Sometimes it's not about how loud individual speakers can get, it's about how they deploy and work together...
i will be using jbl prx712 above the chosen subs
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i will be using jbl prx712 above the chosen subs
Then you will want a sub that can provide a high-passed output to the tops. My personal rig is the PRX712 over PRX718XLF. Works great as a system, as the sub can provide a high-pass out. It also helps that the sub sounds amazing and is relatively easy to move and set up.
My vote - stay JBL and get the 718XLF.
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We mostly use the JBL prx 615 with the Yamaha DXS18 and have for about a year, they work perfect and sound awesome, we just feed the Yamaha the main signal and jump to the tops, this comes from my QSC TouchWiz 30 that's all the processing I send. Before I had the JBL prx 618xlf for about 3 years and they are great subs but they don't have the output of the Yamaha dxs18 and you will notice you need more bass when you start going away from the system as we have. The Yamaha have a 4 inch coil and they pound. People will say that never heard them that they are a one note sub, this is not true and I have compared them side to side and they sound similar in frequency response except that the Yamahas go louder, deeper think when you hear those low frequencies in a movie theater and is more focused, I think the JBL is less focused as the design just takes the bass in a wide area and you lose it the farther back you go. Like people have said NEXO put some magic into them and you can tell. Thanks Derek DDS Productions
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Then you will want a sub that can provide a high-passed output to the tops. My personal rig is the PRX712 over PRX718XLF. Works great as a system, as the sub can provide a high-pass out. It also helps that the sub sounds amazing and is relatively easy to move and set up.
My vote - stay JBL and get the 718XLF.
This would be my vote as well. I have the 615's over the 618xlf's. It's a really good sounding rig and easy to deploy. The sub's can be dead-lifted and are easy to move.
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We mostly use the JBL prx 615 with the Yamaha DXS18 and have for about a year, they work perfect and sound awesome, we just feed the Yamaha the main signal and jump to the tops, this comes from my QSC TouchWiz 30 that's all the processing I send. Before I had the JBL prx 618xlf for about 3 years and they are great subs but they don't have the output of the Yamaha dxs18 and you will notice you need more bass when you start going away from the system as we have. The Yamaha have a 4 inch coil and they pound. People will say that never heard them that they are a one note sub, this is not true and I have compared them side to side and they sound similar in frequency response except that the Yamahas go louder, deeper think when you hear those low frequencies in a movie theater and is more focused, I think the JBL is less focused as the design just takes the bass in a wide area and you lose it the farther back you go. Like people have said NEXO put some magic into them and you can tell. Thanks Derek DDS Productions
am i right in thinking that the yamaha does infact have a high pass filter? why do you need the touch wiz if that is the case?
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am i right in thinking that the yamaha does infact have a high pass filter? why do you need the touch wiz if that is the case?
He's probably doing his system EQ with the Touch.
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thanks for the comments guys, i would like to add that i already own 8 other sub woofers and im aware of what a high pass filter is.
currently i own 8 samson 18" db1800a, this is the reason i am looking to upgrade. im pretty sure these are not very powerfull subs and would be viewed as budget grade.
they have served us well, even though i have never heard any other sub im assuming the yamaha will blow the samson out of the water or at least it better do.
we usually have to take out 4 subs under 2 jble prx to get any kind of decent sound.
i hope im not in for a shock when i get this yamaha and it only sounds marginally better than the samson, surely not right?
http://www.samsontech.com/site_media/legacy_docs/DB1800A.pdf
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thanks for the comments guys, i would like to add that i already own 8 other sub woofers and im aware of what a high pass filter is.
currently i own 8 samson 18" db1800a, this is the reason i am looking to upgrade. im pretty sure these are not very powerfull subs and would be viewed as budget grade.
they have served us well, even though i have never heard any other sub im assuming the yamaha will blow the samson out of the water or at least it better do.
we usually have to take out 4 subs under 2 jble prx to get any kind of decent sound.
i hope im not in for a shock when i get this yamaha and it only sounds marginally better than the samson, surely not right?
http://www.samsontech.com/site_media/legacy_docs/DB1800A.pdf
The Yamaha's will be a noticeable improvement. I can do any small bar with one sub a side.
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thanks for the comments guys, i would like to add that i already own 8 other sub woofers and im aware of what a high pass filter is.
currently i own 8 samson 18" db1800a, this is the reason i am looking to upgrade. im pretty sure these are not very powerfull subs and would be viewed as budget grade.
they have served us well, even though i have never heard any other sub im assuming the yamaha will blow the samson out of the water or at least it better do.
we usually have to take out 4 subs under 2 jble prx to get any kind of decent sound.
i hope im not in for a shock when i get this yamaha and it only sounds marginally better than the samson, surely not right?
http://www.samsontech.com/site_media/legacy_docs/DB1800A.pdf
I think you will find the Yamaha's to be night and day more powerful.
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Between all the presented options I would stick to either the JBL or the Yamaha. While the Thomann unit seems promising, it is 100% a China made OEM version of some other unit that 5 other companies are using. It is a licensed product basically.
The truth is that a few db lower, or a few db louder WILL NOT make or break any system. I would go for quality of sound first. The less work you have to do to make a PA sound good, the more SPL it retains because of the lack of need to tune out its issues. The large one note wonder hump of the Yamaha's may work great for your needs, but if you find that you are tuning out a little bit of it, then you haven't made any gains in output vs that of the smoother sounding JBL. When you have to cut frequencies, you are also reducing gain even if you can turn things up a little more. Remember, the peak level of the speaker factored in the hump that was there. Get rid of the hump and the amp is still working hard to reproduce all the other frequencies that are still just as loud. You may never actually gain any more SPL because as you turn the system back up there is that many more frequencies the amp is trying to amplify and thus reducing potential headroom.
The reason I suggest the JBL or Yamaha is support and level of expected quality. They are likely to be closer to spec than the in house OEM Thomann brand.
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I think you will find the Yamaha's to be night and day more powerful.
i really hope so! and im sure your right
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Between all the presented options I would stick to either the JBL or the Yamaha. While the Thomann unit seems promising, it is 100% a China made OEM version of some other unit that 5 other companies are using. It is a licensed product basically.
The truth is that a few db lower, or a few db louder WILL NOT make or break any system. I would go for quality of sound first. The less work you have to do to make a PA sound good, the more SPL it retains because of the lack of need to tune out its issues. The large one note wonder hump of the Yamaha's may work great for your needs, but if you find that you are tuning out a little bit of it, then you haven't made any gains in output vs that of the smoother sounding JBL. When you have to cut frequencies, you are also reducing gain even if you can turn things up a little more. Remember, the peak level of the speaker factored in the hump that was there. Get rid of the hump and the amp is still working hard to reproduce all the other frequencies that are still just as loud. You may never actually gain any more SPL because as you turn the system back up there is that many more frequencies the amp is trying to amplify and thus reducing potential headroom.
The reason I suggest the JBL or Yamaha is support and level of expected quality. They are likely to be closer to spec than the in house OEM Thomann brand.
great answere!
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Andy - my advice: sell all the Samson subs. Go listen to the JBL and Yammie subs and see which one suits your style best. Buy two of the winning sub and maybe two more later if you need the extra capacity. I chose the JBL, but would not turn my nose up at either if you asked to mix on them for a show.
A smaller quantity of better gear is the way to go, IMnHO.
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today i rang the store, and im off in the morning. The guy in the store threw a spanner in the works and said the rcf8003 mk2 blows the yamaha out of the water.
said hes done this comparison many times recently
rcf bass reflex 2200w 133db VS yamaha band pass 1020w 136db
any quick thoughts on that one?
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The RCF is more expensive..... It is a great performing sub no doubt, but it will come with a price. I believe it goes for around $2k here in the states and I believe it is around 1,300 euros in the European countries. The DXS goes for around $1,300 here in the states and roughly 1,080 euros elsewhere. So there is a $300 difference roughly.
The DXS specs state the frequency range in -10db only, so while it says 32hz, it is probably closer to 40hz for its -3db point? The other gotcha with the DXS is that the peak spec is likely with the " boost " function on, which further reduces bandwidth making it the one note wonder we all speak of. The extended frequency response it has also greatly reduces potential SPL, but gets you closer to the listed specs in terms of frequency range.
The RCF is more straightforward and likely performs close to how its specs read. It likely has a smoother response and goes a little lower in reality than the DXS too. 3db difference in SPL has never made or broken a show as far as I am concerned, so the difference in potential output is probably not much to worry about. My guess is the RCF does actually get louder or at least as loud as the DXS at the frequencies that count. What I DO NOT like about the RCF is that it is a painted box. It will not look as nice tomorrow as it does today. The DXS is covered with Line X and will look good for much longer.
What you have to decide is if you want to spend an extra $300 for essentially the same performance? They will and do sound different no doubt, but what do you value in that sound?
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The DXS specs state the frequency range in -10db only, so while it says 32hz, it is probably closer to 40hz for its -3db point? The other gotcha with the DXS is that the peak spec is likely with the " boost " function on, which further reduces bandwidth making it the one note wonder we all speak of. The extended frequency response it has also greatly reduces potential SPL, but gets you closer to the listed specs in terms of frequency range.
The RCF is more straightforward and likely performs close to how its specs read. It likely has a smoother response and goes a little lower in reality than the DXS too.
If the 8003mkII has a similar response to the mkI (unhelpfully, RCF seem to be stopping putting response curves on their product info for newer items so we can't see for ourselves >:( ) then I wouldn't be so quick to say the RCF should be smoother or lower - it actually looks far more like the classic one note wonder than the Yamaha.
Definitely a case of needing to hear them for onesself before buying, rather than just comparing specs on t'interwebz ;)
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today i rang the store, and im off in the morning. The guy in the store threw a spanner in the works and said the rcf8003 mk2 blows the yamaha out of the water.
said hes done this comparison many times recently
rcf bass reflex 2200w 133db VS yamaha band pass 1020w 136db
any quick thoughts on that one?
The RCF is 1100w RMS compared to 800w RMS for the Yamaha. Not that wattage has very much to do with SPL but I figured anything quoted should be correct....( or at least the specs I can find online)
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Quick search shows the RCF at roughly 2 grand. The Yamaha at 1300. A $700 difference. There better be a noticeable difference..But. I'm happy with the Yamaha's I have
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That response curve for the RCF is rather daunting isn't it!!!!! I wonder sometimes why companies would even bother with that sort of thing. RCF makes about 10 different 18" subs and they all have something different about them, but I wouldn't even bother if that was what I was serving up. Tune it out and eat the 3db it costs to do so and then present it. Actually with that much of a peak it may tune out and preserve a reasonable amount of potential SPL? In either case, If in doubt you should always listen first; yes.
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I have heard the 8003 MK1, and it wasn't pretty... The 8004 on the other hand is a completely different beast.
If the 8003 MK2 is anything like the 8004 you are in for a treat. I would certainly have a listen.
BTW i own 4 8004's.
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I’ve heard the RCF 8003 and it is a very nice sounding sub but sounded a little woolly but I’m not saying this is a fault of the sub. It could have be down to the user or how it was set up at the venue.
I’m using QSC KW181’s and am really impressed with the sound and output for its size, weight and price. One thing I noticed about the RCF8003 was the limiter light was flashing when it was only turned up to 11 o’clock. I’ve not been able to get the KW181’s to flicker at all yet and have used them outdoors at small festivals of around 500 people.
Saying that, I know some guys prefer the RCF’s but I also know some who prefer the QSC’s. There are a few companies here that use the QSC’s and have regularly done sound with major touring artistes.
Another sub I’ve heard great things about is the FBT Q118sa and know a few people who have tried them and said they a a step up from all the other single 18” subs mentioned here. Also the new cheaper Subline 118sa’s are worth checking out!
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As the Op didn't mention KW181, I vote PRX as I own them and prefer them to the KW anyway - by
a slim margin.
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I’ve heard the RCF 8003 and it is a very nice sounding sub but sounded a little woolly but I’m not saying this is a fault of the sub. It could have be down to the user or how it was set up at the venue.
I’m using QSC KW181’s and am really impressed with the sound and output for its size, weight and price. One thing I noticed about the RCF8003 was the limiter light was flashing when it was only turned up to 11 o’clock. I’ve not been able to get the KW181’s to flicker at all yet and have used them outdoors at small festivals of around 500 people.
Saying that, I know some guys prefer the RCF’s but I also know some who prefer the QSC’s. There are a few companies here that use the QSC’s and have regularly done sound with major touring artistes.
Another sub I’ve heard great things about is the FBT Q118sa and know a few people who have tried them and said they a a step up from all the other single 18” subs mentioned here. Also the new cheaper Subline 118sa’s are worth checking out!
there is no 11'oclock on the 8003 mk2, just a continous rotary nob with a digital read out. you must be thinking of something else.
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after a demo in store today we have returned home with 2 RCF 8003 mk2
i really really wanted the yamaha up until the sound test, it was bigger, better looking and side by side looked like it would slaughter the RCF.
But im afraid this just wasnt the case, we tested at all settings on both subs and a + b many times. The yamaha wasnt able to win in any depeartment.
the difference in subs wasnt night and day of course, but it was a bit of a no brainer as to which sounded better. I would say we got a lot more and deeper bass for a little more money.
loading the subs in the van me and mate where still strangley gutted, that yamaha looked so dam good, big and imposing where the rcf just looked like the samson we upgraded from ie a black box with a black grill.
but this is not a beaty contest and we chose raw power dispite the normal dull look of the sub woofer.
our backs will be thanking us to as the RCF is 10kg! lighter than the yamaha.
we will be comparing the rcf to a pair of samsons in the morning to see whats what. thanks for all the comments folks!
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As the Op didn't mention KW181, I vote PRX as I own them and prefer them to the KW anyway - by
a slim margin.
I haven’t heard the PRX subs but know there has been a few issues of reliability over there in the UK. I’ve been told they sound very good though. Saying that I know a few sound companies over here that went with the QSC’s over the JBL’s based on sound.
I would strongly recommend that the op auditions as many subs as possible. Also it’s worth checking out the physical size and weight as well as.
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there is no 11'oclock on the 8003 mk2, just a continous rotary nob with a digital read out. you must be thinking of something else.
It was the mkI 8003.
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I haven’t heard the PRX subs but know there has been a few issues of reliability over there in the UK. I’ve been told they sound very good though. Saying that I know a few sound companies over here that went with the QSC’s over the JBL’s based on sound.
I would strongly recommend that the op auditions as many subs as possible. Also it’s worth checking out the physical size and weight as well as.
From what I have read here, conversations I've had with other folks and my personal experience with both, I think that it comes down to personal preference with the KW181 vs PRX618/718/818 and the numbers are split right down the middle. I agree that the OP should be looking to audition more than just the Yamahas and RCF's... depends what he can get his hands on though I suppose.
One thing I prefer about the PRX unrelated to sound as that seems to be debatable, is that it sits a little higher and doesn't stick out too much like the KW and the SRX. This can work in one's favor in a small stage area - footprint is smaller. I use them in the smaller bars partly for that reason.
When space isn't a premium, I choose my SRX818/828p.
The other thing is the HP is built into the PRX unlike the KW so if using with a speaker that has no HP, it can come in handy.
Of course on the plus side for the KW - comes with wheels... had to make dollies for my PRX's.
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I’m using QSC KW181’s and am really impressed with the sound and output for its size, weight and price. One thing I noticed about the RCF8003 was the limiter light was flashing when it was only turned up to 11 o’clock. I’ve not been able to get the KW181’s to flicker at all yet and have used them outdoors at small festivals of around 500 people.
Hmmm...
I wasn't too impressed when I saw these measurements:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.websitetoolbox.com/192999/2489053)
The KW181 will do 128dB at 70Hz, and 115dB at 40Hz. Plenty of kick, I suppose, but I wouldn't want to use them for anything with low bass.
Chris
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compared the rcf to two samsons today, the result was: 1 rcf sub needed to 3 samson. Icant believe the bass that comes from a single sub of almost the same size and weight. it just mind boggling.
also being able to adjust the high pass frequency has given a much better sound to our over all rig.
now we can do our dj gigs using one small van instead of two.
we are very happy with this purchase although they arnt cheap!
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compared the rcf to two samsons today, the result was: 1 rcf sub needed to 3 samson. Icant believe the bass that comes from a single sub of almost the same size and weight. it just mind boggling.
also being able to adjust the high pass frequency has given a much better sound to our over all rig.
now we can do our dj gigs using one small van instead of two.
we are very happy with this purchase although they arnt cheap!
Thanks for the update - I am so happy you got something you really like. The RCF's have a very good reputation from what I hear and I don't doubt you will be completely satisfied going forward. ..
That being said I have a sneaking suspicion that your findings reflect more how inadequate the Samson subs are than how good the RCF's are.... and you would have had a similar result if you had compared the Samsons with either KW181's or PRX818xlf's.
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Thanks for the update - I am so happy you got something you really like. The RCF's have a very good reputation from what I hear and I don't doubt you will be completely satisfied going forward. ..
That being said I have a sneaking suspicion that your findings reflect more how inadequate the Samson subs are than how good the RCF's are.... and you would have had a similar result if you had compared the Samsons with either KW181's or PRX818xlf's.
Yes the Samson’s are pretty weak sounding subs and I would expect similar results with the KW181 and PRX818xlf.
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yes im under no illusions about the comparison, but i needed to do it for myself while i still owned them.
the samsons are 500w rms wooden cabinet and where a great starting point, as time went on i got more second hand and ended up with 8 of them.
recently ive owned a set of jbl 835sp speakers so im completely onboard what expensive ish gear can do.
im not sure my prx712 speakers are going to keep up with these rcf, but ive not had the opportunity to do a max sound check yet as i thought my house was going to fall apart with a single rcf in my kitchen.
ill be out on the road with them very soon in some fairly big rooms and ill report back my findings.
i completely believe the specs at 30hz after todays testing, and what the guys in the shop were telling me, this rcf kills the yamaha dxs18 as it did in the store demo.