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Title: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Carl Dacorte on December 19, 2012, 01:48:51 AM
Hey everyone!  I'm brand new to the forums and have really enjoyed the wealth of knowledge that's available to me here!

I'm posting because I'm looking for some advice on a sound system upgrade/s.  Let me give you some background on my needs and what I'm currently using.

I'm located on Chicago's South Side.  I've been a student of sound for about 10 years... volunteering at church, working as an audio contractor, and providing sound for my band.  This has grown into providing sound for other local bands, events, and concerts.  I stay pretty busy between my own band and hiring out for other functions.  Throughout the years I've pieced together a system that fits our needs as a band very well as well as my needs for providing sound for clients.  Recently our career as a band has grown and we've been out on the road in multi state tours playing larger venues.  In the summer time we play mostly county fairs and festivals in which we provide our own sound and lights.  Last summer we hired sound out because of the simplicity, but it took a large chunk of our budget too.  This year, I've decided to run our own sound from side stage.

Here's what I currently use in what could be considered my "A" rig.


Speakers:
2 x Yamaha S215IV (main tops)
2 x Yamaha Stage Pass Speakers (front fills... surprisingly, these work really well... are light weight... and I got the system as a steal!)
4 x Yamaha SW118IV (main bottoms)
Shure PSM900 IEM's
4 x Yamaha SM115V (monitors for supporting acts)

Amps:
2 x QSC Power Light 1.4 (each bridged for main tops)
1 x QSC RMX2450 (stereo for subs which I run in mono)
3 x Crown MacroTech 1200 (2 for monitors and 1 back up)

For system tuning, I'm using a Driverack +.  Far from perfect... it gets the job done and I leave the automatic tuning for the "pros" who love to offer suggestions at load in... :)

This rig gets the job done.  I've found I can provide pretty good sound at most venues with this rig and am constantly getting compliments by how good it sounds.  I can average about 85dB (C scale) around 50 yards out (out doors) with headroom to spare.  The thing I love about this setup is its flexibility.  For smaller venues I will only use 2 subs and a pair of S115IV's I also have for tops...

Here's the issue with this setup.  The places we're playing are getting bigger...  We're talking the size of a high school baseball stadium seating anywhere from 500 - 1000 people for the most part.  My current rig does the job for about 500... but I'm afraid it just doesn't cut it for any more then that.  The low end is really lacking and the more I push these subs, the more displeased I am with their performance.  We're a country/ rockabilly band and although I don't need (or enjoy for that matter) chest pumping... head shaking bass...  we still have to deliver a show that people expect.

So this brings me to why I'm posting.  I'm looking for suggestions on what has worked (or currently works) for you in a similar venue as we'll be encountering this summer.  I'm open to gear suggestions be it a completely new system, or suggestions on maximizing what I already have with maybe some new components. (different speakers... different amps...)  Here are some key points for me:

- Volume.  I looking for about 90-100 dB about 50 yards out from the stage

- Space/ Weight is a big concern.  We're traveling in a trailer with not only a sound system, but also full gear for a band, lights, merch, and luggage for up to 6 people.  I'm considering powered speakers to keep space and weight down... but am apprehensive incase one blows while we're on the road...

- Cost. I know that quality things cost money.  I'm open to selling what I currently have to afford a new rig.  My budget would be around... say...$2000.00

- The biggest point to consider is sound quality... It's got to sound good... and be reliable.

I've tried to cover all grounds to give you guys the best idea possible of the situation so that you can help me. :)  If you have any questions, please ask!

Thanks for reading this long post and thanks for any help you can offer!

(ps. - if anyone is interested in my band you can check my signature for the link)
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Lee Douglas on December 19, 2012, 02:01:29 AM
- Cost. I know that quality things cost money.  I'm open to selling what I currently have to afford a new rig.  My budget would be around... say...$2000.00

- The biggest point to consider is sound quality... It's got to sound good... and be reliable.

That's per box, right?

Added to be constructive: Given the situations you describe, my starting point would be JBL's SRX700 or the discontinued SR-X line, neither of which is small, light or cheap and will both probably require a reworking of your amp selection at some point.  Seriously consider hiring a rental company if your requirements are as you stated.  There's nothing worse than an anemic system, powered or unpowered, straining to cover too big of an area.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Carl Dacorte on December 19, 2012, 02:09:40 AM
That's per box, right?

Also forgot the mention that I manage a prominent used music shop in Chicago and have access to gear from 35 stores nationwide at an employee discount...  I see LOTS of used sound equipment.  That $2000.00 dollar budget is just a starting point... an estimate.  $2000.00 dollars of used gear could easily equal $4000.00 dollars at new prices.

Lee, What would you have in mind that could fit my needs?  Considering budget, or not considering budget?  When I worked as an audio contractor, we always prepared an "A" package, "B" package, and "C" package... always starting with the "A" which was always over their budget by about 20%...  This was worked down until the needs were met and then some within their target budget.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Lee Douglas on December 19, 2012, 02:13:36 AM
Lee, What would you have in mind that could fit my needs?  Considering budget, or not considering budget?  When I worked as an audio contractor, we always prepared an "A" package, "B" package, and "C" package... always starting with the "A" which was always over their budget by about 20%...  This was worked down until the needs were met and then some within their target budget.

Edited my original comment to address this somewhat.  You will also want to change your name to your real full name as per the posting rules or this thread will get locked.  Also this will probably get moved to the Lab Lounge section soon.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: John Halliburton on December 19, 2012, 08:37:35 AM
Speakers:

4 x Yamaha SM115V (monitors for supporting acts)

Amps:
2 x QSC Power Light 1.4 (each bridged for main tops)
1 x QSC RMX2450 (stereo for subs which I run in mono)
3 x Crown MacroTech 1200 (2 for monitors and 1 back up)

For system tuning, I'm using a Driverack +.  Far from perfect... it gets the job done and I leave the automatic tuning for the "pros" who love to offer suggestions at load in... :)

This rig gets the job done. 

Here's the issue with this setup.  The places we're playing are getting bigger... 

- Volume.  I looking for about 90-100 dB about 50 yards out from the stage

- Space/ Weight is a big concern.  We're traveling in a trailer with not only a sound system...


What is currently available in your used gear network?  That might be the way to start.
Otherwise, here goes...

You need either more FOH speakers, or more powerful ones, with commensurate amplification.  The first method probably means you'll need a larger trailer, which may not be a bad thing either.

Here's a suggestion that will get you the extra loudness and sound quality, yet save you trailer space and weight:  Replace the SV215 with a pair of Danley Sound SM80 or JTR Noesis 3TX.  You could also replace the subs with JTR Growlers, one of the great bangs for the buck in small subs.  Danley makes some great small subs too, probably the greatest.

You could get away with your current amplifier set up for time being, but you would be able move into larger amps, say one larger QSC Powerlight or Crown iTech for the pair of tops, the same for the subs.

A pair of iTechs would solve another issue, and provide a nice upgrade in processing for the FOH system. Otherwise, you'll probably want to move to a nice Dbx Driverack, or something from Ashly or Xilica.

There will be plenty of others offering suggestions of course.  My suggestions get you lighter weight and smaller trailer pack requirements, more power, great sound, and you could still roll into a small gig at a club with this system and knock everyone's sox off...

BTW, I'm up on the northside, and currently have a pair of the smaller JTR Noesis 2AX if you're interested in a listen.  Not quite the beast that the 3TX is, but close.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 19, 2012, 08:46:27 AM
Also forgot the mention that I manage a prominent used music shop in Chicago and have access to gear from 35 stores nationwide at an employee discount...  I see LOTS of used sound equipment.  That $2000.00 dollar budget is just a starting point... an estimate.  $2000.00 dollars of used gear could easily equal $4000.00 dollars at new prices.

Lee, What would you have in mind that could fit my needs?  Considering budget, or not considering budget?  When I worked as an audio contractor, we always prepared an "A" package, "B" package, and "C" package... always starting with the "A" which was always over their budget by about 20%...  This was worked down until the needs were met and then some within their target budget.

Forget about owning gear appropriate to your stated needs.  It'll cost you a minimum of 10x your 2 grand budget even for used.

Hire in the stuff you need and adjust your price to cover it.  Or spend some real money for real gear.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 19, 2012, 09:12:12 AM
Also forgot the mention that I manage a prominent used music shop in Chicago and have access to gear from 35 stores nationwide at an employee discount...  I see LOTS of used sound equipment.  That $2000.00 dollar budget is just a starting point... an estimate.  $2000.00 dollars of used gear could easily equal $4000.00 dollars at new prices.

Lee, What would you have in mind that could fit my needs?  Considering budget, or not considering budget?  When I worked as an audio contractor, we always prepared an "A" package, "B" package, and "C" package... always starting with the "A" which was always over their budget by about 20%...  This was worked down until the needs were met and then some within their target budget.
Hi Carl.  You're heading down a road that a lot of us have traveled before.  Unfortunately I think you'll find the consensus is that you're not going to get where you want to go for even 200% over your $2000 budget, used equipment included.  150' throw, outside, and 1000 people are three targets that mean $$$$. 

Some principles for you:
- More speakers is usually not better than fewer, especially at the low end of the price spectrum.  The speed of sound is so slow that everything interferes with everything else, which means that overlapping speakers actually cancel out some of the sound, affecting both sound quality and output.

- You get what you pay for.  I also owned 4 of the Yamaha subs you're talking about.  I replaced them with a pair of pro quality single 18" speakers and the new guys are much louder and sound better than the Yamaha's ever did, not to mention taking up less than half the space.  The cost:  $4K just for two subs and an amp.  They wouldn't have any chance of covering what you're talking about - for subs alone you need to budget probably $7500 for a set of 4 used dual 18" subs and a couple old-iron heavy amps with the power to push it.  There is a similar reality for your main speakers. $20,000 will disappear faster than you can possibly believe, and you'll still not be anywhere close to what you want to have a complete system with cases, power, appropriate mixer, etc.

- Own for your little gigs, rent for your big gigs.  We all know the pain of paying out hard-earned money to a sound contractor, but looking at the whole picture, it's usually better to do this than to have to eat a huge loan payment on gear you only use a couple times a year.  This shouldn't matter anyway - surely your customers will cover the rental cost of your needed equipment plus pay your band a fair fee, right?  :)

We're all looking for a shortcut for cheap, loud, portable, and good sounding stuff.  Unfortunately that doesn't exist, so everybody compromises - not loud enough, WAY more money spent, don't do the gig, rent the gear, etc.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 19, 2012, 09:24:49 AM
Hi Carl.  You're heading down a road that a lot of us have traveled before.  Unfortunately I think you'll find the consensus is that you're not going to get where you want to go for even 200% over your $2000 budget, used equipment included.  150' throw, outside, and 1000 people are three targets that mean $$$$.
- Own for your little gigs, rent for your big gigs.  We all know the pain of paying out hard-earned money to a sound contractor, but looking at the whole picture, it's usually better to do this than to have to eat a huge loan payment on gear you only use a couple times a year.  This shouldn't matter anyway - surely your customers will cover the rental cost of your needed equipment plus pay your band a fare fee, right?  :)

{snip}

We're all looking for a shortcut for cheap, loud, portable, and good sounding stuff.  Unfortunately that doesn't exist, so everybody compromises - not loud enough, WAY more money spent, don't do the gig, rent the gear, etc.

The bold text drives the final hammer blow.

Carl, who benefits from the PA?  The audience.  Owning gear to play large gigs is chasing your tail, financially, unless you have needs so specific and critical that owning production is the only way.  Even if you buy gear, you need to keep the production fee separate from the band's artistic fee.  The promoter should be paying for the band, and then whatever the band needs to put on the show in his venue, whether those needs are PA, lights, catering, transportation, hotel rooms, etc.

As others have pointed out, if you need to cover 1000 people outdoors and hit 150' with decent level, you're looking at a very different approach to sound than you're currently used to.  It's expensive, it's heavy and it's big.  Your transportation needs will increase commensurately.  Don't forget insurance & depreciation, too.

The band would be better served if you keep the smaller rig you own now and use it when appropriate (and charge for it, that's called a "production buy-out"), and put together a technical rider so the promoter can locally hire bigger rigs when needed.  You might want to carry a console/mic/snake package for consistency and have stacks and rack hired locally.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 19, 2012, 09:32:50 AM


As others have pointed out, if you need to cover 1000 people outdoors and hit 150' with decent level, you're looking at a very different approach to sound than you're currently used to.  It's expensive, it's heavy and it's big.  Your power and transportation needs will increase commensurately.  Don't forget insurance & depreciation, too.



Bold type added.  It'll require significant power to run this stuff.  Not everyone has it available at the drop of a hat.  So you're looking at another possible (significant) expense PLUS the knowledge required to run safely.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Mike Christy on December 19, 2012, 09:58:25 AM
Carl, this is why most of us here are in business, to provide sound and lights for clients exactly like you, for a fraction of the cost of owning ( like lower single digits fraction ) with much better quality.

Having PA professionally provided will allow you to come across as a true pro act at larger shows, especailly during sound checks or when you have to troublshoot issues, and not look like a bunch of chickens running around with your heads cut off just before the first down beat.

I provide regualrly for touring acts just like you - they have enough of a task hauling their backline gear around in a trailer, hauled by a van, let alone PA gear - both together would require a small box truck, AND the van still. Then loading it ALL in and setting up...

Give one of us a chance, locally, youll be happy you did.

Mike
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Jordan Wolf on December 19, 2012, 12:15:26 PM
A big +1 to what Tim said, and another one to what Mike said.

It is a significant investment of time and money, at the very least.  Plus, you don't want to be mixing side-of-stage for groups that large (never is actually my preference).  You need a spot out in the audience for an accurate representation of what they hear.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 19, 2012, 12:28:01 PM
A big +1 to what Tim said, and another one to what Mike said.

It is a significant investment of time and money, at the very least.  Plus, you don't want to be mixing side-of-stage for groups audiences that large (never is actually my preference).  You need a spot out in the audience for an accurate representation of what they hear.


Edited so that I could understand it.  The audience, not the band.  I'm getting old.....

This is why groups send out tech riders.  When you're hired to provide entertainment in venues which require a substantial amount of tech for a quality show, the presenter/promoter has to bear the cost in some way, either paying you to arrange for production or providing it themselves.

As someone who has spent a considerable portion of his professional life as a performer, what you are proposing (owning your own gear and "throwing it in" to get hired) is just bush league.  What you are actually doing in such a scenario is underwriting their production costs at your own expense.

But who knows.  You may become wealthy music industry idols some day.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Carl Dacorte on December 19, 2012, 12:43:25 PM
Thanks for the response everyone!  (Especially John!  I might take you up on that offer to give those speakers a listen.)

Everyone's suggestions to contract the sound out is a good one and one that would be an easier option.  I should have been clearer that when I'm not playing music, I too am in the sound business... so I'm not only looking for a better sound system to tour with, but also to hire out locally for myself.  I'm considering this a business investment.

Our tech rider is current to our needs, but you and I both know that riders are almost never followed.  We're talking small town fairs here... population 1000.  When it comes to sound providers, options are limited.  We're working with a national renowned talent agency and the way our contracts work is that we're payed a flat fee by the buyer which says we provide sound (whether its us doing it or contracting it out.)  This is the way we want it so that we can control the quality of sound provided.

I was also a bit liberal in my coverage needs.  At absolute MAX we're looking at about 1000 people in the size of a small baseball field... usually around 500 though.  My volume levels are way off too... I should have type 100dB @ 50 feet... not yards... oops! (lay off... I wrote it at 2:00 in the morning... :D  )  For the typical fairs we play, 50' covers the general seating where people want to enjoy "concert sound levels."

One last thing to mention.  We worked with LOTS of local sound guys this past year all throughout the midwest and while most of them are nice and easy to work with... their systems typically weren't any more up to par than my own.  Ultimately, that was the deciding factor to run our own sound for fairs and festivals.  I would rather pay myself a little more to provide sound and know exactly what I'm getting rather than pay someone else and not have a clue to what I'm getting.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not looking for the cheap way out.  I'm looking for the wise way out.  My reasoning is that if I can invest a bit into a more efficient system than what we're using now, in the long run our band will save money and I would make more money both at my band's gigs and my own sound gigs.  We would know exactly what we're getting and be prepared for it.

On a side note, I found a a pair of JBL SR4732/ SR4715A speakers selling locally for $2200.00.  Any one have any experience with these?  I know another local sound company who uses these and from what I remember, they sound decent.  Good price? 

On another side note, what's your rig look like?  And what spaces can you cover with it? 

Thanks again everyone for the help!
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 19, 2012, 12:52:27 PM
Thanks for the response everyone!  (Especially John!  I might take you up on that offer to give those speakers a listen.)

Everyone's suggestions to contract the sound out is a good one and one that would be an easier option.  I should have been clearer that when I'm not playing music, I too am in the sound business... so I'm not only looking for a better sound system to tour with, but also to hire out locally for myself.  I'm considering this a business investment.

Our tech rider is current to our needs, but you and I both know that riders are almost never followed.  We're talking small town fairs here... population 1000.  When it comes to sound providers, options are limited.  We're working with a national renowned talent agency and the way our contracts work is that we're payed a flat fee by the buyer which says we provide sound (whether its us doing it or contracting it out.)  This is the way we want it so that we can control the quality of sound provided.

I was also a bit liberal in my coverage needs.  At absolute MAX we're looking at about 1000 people in the size of a small baseball field... usually around 500 though.  My volume levels are way off too... I should have type 100dB @ 50 feet... not yards... oops! (lay off... I wrote it at 2:00 in the morning... :D  )  For the typical fairs we play, 50' covers the general seating where people want to enjoy "concert sound levels."

One last thing to mention.  We worked with LOTS of local sound guys this past year all throughout the midwest and while most of them are nice and easy to work with... their systems typically weren't any more up to par than my own.  Ultimately, that was the deciding factor to run our own sound for fairs and festivals.  I would rather pay myself a little more to provide sound and know exactly what I'm getting rather than pay someone else and not have a clue to what I'm getting.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not looking for the cheap way out.  I'm looking for the wise way out.  My reasoning is that if I can invest a bit into a more efficient system than what we're using now, in the long run our band will save money and I would make more money both at my band's gigs and my own sound gigs.  We would know exactly what we're getting and be prepared for it.

On a side note, I found a a pair of JBL SR4732/ SR4715A speakers selling locally for $2200.00.  Any one have any experience with these?  I know another local sound company who uses these and from what I remember, they sound decent.  Good price? 

On another side note, what's your rig look like?  And what spaces can you cover with it? 

Thanks again everyone for the help!

Having played that circuit 40 years ago, I doubt that much has changed.

If your requirements are more modest than your original statement, look at deployment as your main concern.  Fewer, more powerful boxes will give you greater clarity over your audience area.  Getting them up over the crowd will let them be more effective.  And for outdoor use you're looking for horn-loaded boxes.....or the popular "line array".

That's about it......except the caveat about safe, adequate power to run whatever you bring.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Carl Dacorte on December 19, 2012, 12:55:18 PM

As someone who has spent a considerable portion of his professional life as a performer, what you are proposing (owning your own gear and "throwing it in" to get hired) is just bush league.  What you are actually doing in such a scenario is underwriting their production costs at your own expense.

But who knows.  You may become wealthy music industry idols some day.

Here's our reasoning.  The venue can only pay a certain amount.  Lets say they can afford to pay us $3000.00 to play at their fair.  We can tell them they need to provide sound, in which case they'll tell us now the most they can afford is $2500.00.  Or (and this is what we've been doing and prefer to do) We can charge them $3000.00 and from that pay $500.00 for a company to come in to run sound for us.  This way we know exactly what were getting.  My proposal now is that I provide sound and charge the band less than we would pay a local sound company.  I make more money, and the band keeps more money (of which I am a 50% owner... so I get to keep even more money :D  )
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 19, 2012, 01:00:11 PM
Here's our reasoning.  The venue can only pay a certain amount.  Lets say they can afford to pay us $3000.00 to play at their fair.  We can tell them they need to provide sound, in which case they'll tell us now the most they can afford is $2500.00.  Or (and this is what we've been doing and prefer to do) We can charge them $3000.00 and from that pay $500.00 for a company to come in to run sound for us.  This way we know exactly what were getting.  My proposal now is that I provide sound and charge the band less than we would pay a local sound company.  I make more money, and the band keeps more money (of which I am a 50% owner... so I get to keep even more money :D  )

$500.00 for that much gear and service?????? 

Let me be clear.  I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of the "working musician".  But either you're in dreamland or your topic is mis-stated for the actual information you need.  Or some of both.

The gear you're looking at is certainly louder than what you're using.  But it's still sort of "club gear".  Outdoor sound is a different animal requiring 4x the gear for indoor......at a minimum......for the same # of people.

The way the "facts" have been laid out for us would lead me to believe that either the amount available ($500) for gear/service is 1/4 to 1/3 what it should be or that the whole project is quite a bit smaller than we've been led to believe.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Carl Dacorte on December 19, 2012, 01:11:19 PM
Dick, what would you charge to provide sound for a 3 piece band in a small baseball field?  Load in's at 2:00 pm, sound check at 5:00, show starts at 7:00, strike is at 10:00.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 19, 2012, 01:22:19 PM
Dick, what would you charge to provide sound for a 3 piece band in a small baseball field?  Load in's at 2:00 pm, sound check at 5:00, show starts at 7:00, strike is at 10:00.

Given the info you've laid out so far you're looking at a 10 hour day.....plus travel time....so that's probably a 12 hour day.  If you figure a crew of 2, going rate for the engineer is around $500 for the day, $300 for the roadie/tech/helper.  The gear is on top of that, so add mileage and $800.  That includes my liability insurance.  Power considerations may increase the cost if I have to provide my own.

  Do you carry your own liability when you provide for yourselves?

And no, you cannot save $$$ by helping with the in/out.  My insurance doesn't cover "volunteers".
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Carl Dacorte on December 19, 2012, 01:41:09 PM
Given the info you've laid out so far you're looking at a 10 hour day.....plus travel time....so that's probably a 12 hour day.  If you figure a crew of 2, going rate for the engineer is around $500 for the day, $300 for the roadie/tech/helper.  The gear is on top of that, so add mileage and $800.  That includes my liability insurance.  Power considerations may increase the cost if I have to provide my own.

  Do you carry your own liability when you provide for yourselves?

And no, you cannot save $$$ by helping with the in/out.  My insurance doesn't cover "volunteers".

Wow, the MN market must be a lot different than the Chicago market.  Sound providers are a dime a dozen around here which I guess drives the prices down.  I've yet to encounter a sound provider who would charge more than $500.00 for my modified/ revised needs I listed.  Most around here work solo too with no tech.  I need to move to MN!  :D

The band operates under an umbrella corp that I own.  It encompasses my sound company as well as other business endeavors and is fully insured.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 19, 2012, 01:55:34 PM
Wow, the MN market must be a lot different than the Chicago market.  Sound providers are a dime a dozen around here which I guess drives the prices down.  I've yet to encounter a sound provider who would charge more than $500.00 for my modified/ revised needs I listed.  Most around here work solo too with no tech.  I need to move to MN!  :D

The band operates under an umbrella corp that I own.  It encompasses my sound company as well as other business endeavors and is fully insured.

For $500 you'll get something that makes noise.  If you want good sound, triple it.

On the other hand, I could bring my midi-accordion "one-man band" and do the show for a grand...........
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 19, 2012, 02:02:41 PM
Wow, the MN market must be a lot different than the Chicago market.  Sound providers are a dime a dozen around here which I guess drives the prices down.  I've yet to encounter a sound provider who would charge more than $500.00 for my modified/ revised needs I listed.  Most around here work solo too with no tech.  I need to move to MN!  :D

A sound provider that doesn't charge at least what Dick quoted is a hobby not a sound company. There is a business side to this "business" that says the point of it all is to make money. This has been discussed a lot, so much so that even back in 2006 someone decided to post the numbers to build a "bar band" system. Check out THIS LINK (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,84593.msg772588.html#msg772588) and go down to Bennett Prescott's post with the link to his spreadsheet. Even in 2006 it came to $18,000, today it may be more or less.

With a minimum investment of $20,000 you need to get more than $500 every time you send it out, with shipping, labor to set it up, strike it, operate it, tear it down, and ship it home. You also need to cover all the maintenance you will have to do to keep it running and in presentable shape. If your labor is worth $100 (not much), shipping $100 (price having someone else deliver and pick up), maintenance, insurance, storage, etc $50, you're only getting $250 for the gear. For that $20k system that is a little over 1% ROI.

Charge what you're worth, and avoid the jobs that don't value your worth enough to pay for it.

Mac
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Mike Christy on December 19, 2012, 02:06:15 PM
For $500 you'll get something that makes noise.  If you want good sound, triple it.

On the other hand, I could bring my midi-accordion "one-man band" and do the show for a grand...........

Hey Dick! I'll gladly "reinforce" your squeeze box for $1500, w/$40 PSW discount.

Item   Rate      Sub
PA   0.03   $30,000    $900
Eng   30/hr   10   300
Tech   20/hr   10   200
Labor   10/hr   10   100
Trans   .40/mile   100   40
         
         
         $1,540
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 19, 2012, 02:08:22 PM
A sound provider that doesn't charge at least what Dick quoted is a hobby not a sound company.

Thanks, Mac. 

The numbers I threw out were still fairly arbitrary given the nebulous requirements.  The point is, he's dealing with "ankle-biting part-timers" who have day jobs and enjoy looking like sound guys.  I didn't want to say it directly, but I've seen it for decades on both sides, performers and "sound providers".

It's just ludicrous for a band to charge 3 grand for a performance and spend $500 on the presentation.  If the shoe was on the other foot with sound providers getting the 3 grand and paying the band $500, I guess that would make the SP an agent......

Rim shot here.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 19, 2012, 02:10:20 PM
Hey Dick! I'll gladly "reinforce" your squeeze box for $1500, w/$40 PSW discount.

Item   Rate      Sub
PA   0.03   $30,000    $900
Eng   30/hr   10   300
Tech   20/hr   10   200
Labor   10/hr   10   100
Trans   .40/mile   100   40
         
         
         $1,540

Thanks, Mike.  I'll keep you in mind if I ever un-retire.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 19, 2012, 02:38:22 PM
A sound provider that doesn't charge at least what Dick quoted is a hobby not a sound company. There is a business side to this "business" that says the point of it all is to make money. This has been discussed a lot, so much so that even back in 2006 someone decided to post the numbers to build a "bar band" system. Check out THIS LINK (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,84593.msg772588.html#msg772588) and go down to Bennett Prescott's post with the link to his spreadsheet. Even in 2006 it came to $18,000, today it may be more or less.

With a minimum investment of $20,000 you need to get more than $500 every time you send it out, with shipping, labor to set it up, strike it, operate it, tear it down, and ship it home. You also need to cover all the maintenance you will have to do to keep it running and in presentable shape. If your labor is worth $100 (not much), shipping $100 (price having someone else deliver and pick up), maintenance, insurance, storage, etc $50, you're only getting $250 for the gear. For that $20k system that is a little over 1% ROI.

Charge what you're worth, and avoid the jobs that don't value your worth enough to pay for it.

Mac

Carl,

I'm looking at my system upgrades for 2013, and right now I am planning on:
- Increasing my number of JBL VRX cabinets
- Adding new 4-wedge monitor kit for smaller events
- New drumfill/dj monitor setup, with amps
- 15' more cable ramps, and maybe 35' more beyond that
- Doubling my microphone setup
- 78 new XLR cables of varying lengths
- 2 new subsnakes
- 4 new processing/amp racks

I'm floating around $33,400 in expenses (list; I should be able to knock 20% off of that by shopping smart), and this is just an *upgrade* to my existing systems. I spent at least $20K this year as well...

I think it was Tim M. who mentioned recently an anecdote of him with his boss, and the boss wants to take their business "to the next level," and to which he asked him what the current investment was. The answer was something on the order of $300,000, and Tim informed him it'd be at LEAST that same amount to go "to the next level." So, take the amount you've spent to date, and plan on spending at least that same amount to move up a notch.

Ray
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Josh Daws on December 19, 2012, 03:40:23 PM
this is what you should look at at a minimum...

4 x JBL VRX 932LA
4 x JBL VRX 918s
4 x QSC 3102 amp
1 x EAW UX8800 processor

whatever you want then for a console. yamaha LS9-32, or a whatever you like.

this is about 20k and upwards in price by the time you add cabling and appropriate cases/covers. i use this system with my production company i work for and it suffices quite well for most events, and will agree with most technical riders substitutions...
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 19, 2012, 04:13:42 PM
this is what you should look at at a minimum...

4 x JBL VRX 932LA
4 x JBL VRX 918s
4 x QSC 3102 amp
1 x EAW UX8800 processor

whatever you want then for a console. yamaha LS9-32, or a whatever you like.

this is about 20k and upwards in price by the time you add cabling and appropriate cases/covers. i use this system with my production company i work for and it suffices quite well for most events, and will agree with most technical riders substitutions...

Any particular reason for recommending an EAW processor for JBL speakers? It won't have any JBL factory presets in it. You can get the JBL presets in a dbx260 or in Crown amps instead of the QSC amps.

Mac
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Tim Perry on December 19, 2012, 06:29:43 PM
Carl, If it is set in stone that you must have a PA for the county fair circuit, let me suggest a middle of the road approach:  That would be 4 double 15" tops and 4 double 18" subs.  These would be of the quality of JBL SRX or similar.
Next you will need an amp rack with sufficient power to drive these... and then a power distro.

I'm pretty sure I could not get the above inside of your budget... but maybe you can run into a great deal.

As always, live sound is a balancing act between what you need, what you desire. what you can afford, and what you can transport.
 
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Josh Daws on December 19, 2012, 09:49:55 PM
Any particular reason for recommending an EAW processor for JBL speakers? It won't have any JBL factory presets in it. You can get the JBL presets in a dbx260 or in Crown amps instead of the QSC amps.

Mac

because we have found that the DBX processors to fail within 6 months of touring...the EAW also does a lot more, like temperature and humidity adjustments (on the go to so you can update it seemlessly)

oh and the crown iTECH or XTI amps are a GREAT match for these too, due to speaker profiles being built in! :) but we have just found that the QSC PLX3102 to be amazingly reliable and can takea hell of a beating. we haven't had 1 amp go down this tour season.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 19, 2012, 11:07:08 PM
because we have found that the DBX processors to fail within 6 months of touring...the EAW also does a lot more, like temperature and humidity adjustments (on the go to so you can update it seemlessly)

oh and the crown iTECH or XTI amps are a GREAT match for these too, due to speaker profiles being built in! :) but we have just found that the QSC PLX3102 to be amazingly reliable and can takea hell of a beating. we haven't had 1 amp go down this tour season.

I find the statement your making about the dbx processors to be a bit of a stretch. I personally own a 260, 480 and 4800, the 4800 being the newest addition. None of these units have ever been a problem and two of them were bought used from LAB members.
 
OP,
Find yourself good entry level touring cabinets for a reasonable price and build a sytem for 1000 people based on a good foundation. I lean towards JBLs SRX series and know for a fact 4ea SRX725s, and 4ea. SRX728s powered properly will get the job done indoors or out. And as Mac stated above, the dbx driveracks mate perfectly with JBLs cabinets and anyones amplifiers.
 
If after you've built a system that will cover 1000 waterbags and you should find yourself needing a larger system, I would then suggest that your band is making enough money to purchase a larger system, expand your system, rent a system, and pay for a professional to run sound for you.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Josh Daws on December 20, 2012, 09:19:15 AM

I find the statement your making about the dbx processors to be a bit of a stretch. I personally own a 260, 480 and 4800, the 4800 being the newest addition. None of these units have ever been a problem and two of them were bought used from LAB members.

well i know that i have seen alot of our 4800 fail on us, we replaced them with 20ish of the 480's, the screens failed on us (about 25% of them, and the replaced half of our inventory with the 260's, and not as so much of a failure rate, but we have seen the screens go on them too. which is why we decided to switch to the EAW processor.

im not saying that these are not a great unit, because they are fantastic. but we have experienced issues with them. you asked why...and that is why.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Mike Christy on December 20, 2012, 09:53:09 AM
well i know that i have seen alot of our 4800 fail on us, we replaced them with 20ish of the 480's, the screens failed on us (about 25% of them, and the replaced half of our inventory with the 260's, and not as so much of a failure rate, but we have seen the screens go on them too. which is why we decided to switch to the EAW processor.

im not saying that these are not a great unit, because they are fantastic. but we have experienced issues with them. you asked why...and that is why.

The screen "went" on mine too, I opened it up, reseated the ribbon, and gooped it with RTV, Good to Go.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Brad Weber on December 20, 2012, 10:39:09 AM
Here's our reasoning.  The venue can only pay a certain amount.  Lets say they can afford to pay us $3000.00 to play at their fair.  We can tell them they need to provide sound, in which case they'll tell us now the most they can afford is $2500.00.  Or (and this is what we've been doing and prefer to do) We can charge them $3000.00 and from that pay $500.00 for a company to come in to run sound for us.  This way we know exactly what were getting.  My proposal now is that I provide sound and charge the band less than we would pay a local sound company.  I make more money, and the band keeps more money (of which I am a 50% owner... so I get to keep even more money :D  )
There are potential aspects and costs in your providing the sound that you may not be considering.  What happens if something fails or is damaged or stolen, will you have backup equipment with you or be able to get compatible gear in time?   Are you going to have spare cables, power cords, etc. on hand?  How are you going to transport and store the gear?  Is it practical for you to be responsible for the sound system without it affecting your being a member of the band, for example might there be times you need to be two places at once?  What about insurance for both the equipment and the liability when you use it?  How are you going to handle the business side and the related accounting, licensing, taxes and so on with their related costs and effort?
 
Maybe you have considered these issues but it is important to realize there are potential costs and efforts that may not be immediately obvious.
Title: Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
Post by: Josh Daws on December 20, 2012, 05:44:14 PM
The screen "went" on mine too, I opened it up, reseated the ribbon, and gooped it with RTV, Good to Go.

unfortunately ours were juts a little beyond that... :(