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Title: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 10, 2017, 06:46:31 PM
I'm hoping I can get a bit of help learning the basics of DMX.

I'm a fairly tech savvy kinda guy - I've run PA systems for bands for decades, I figured out how to run pro-tools back in the day without instructions (probably missed a bunch but I could record) and I use Logic Pro now. I've even built a few small electronics pieces. I'm a photographer 'by day' and also teach Photoshop, Illustrator, inDesign, XPress etc. Like I said - fairly tech savvy.

DMX has got me buffaloed. I've been cruising forums, YouTube videos and so on but the basics seem to be right over my head because no-one explains a few things that I've run into.

I would like to run this as a thread - I don't want a huge answer to all the things about DMX, I need to build up my knowledge a bit at a time so I can keep it straight. I hate being in this position, but that's what I seem to need at this stage.

Your patience and help are greatly appreciated.

FIRST QUESTION:

I have four flat eBay LED RGB lights and I bought an ADJ 3C RGB IR - and it turns out they are totally incompatible.  The lights - I have discovered - only work on Channel 7. The Controller only works on Channel 1.

On the back of the lights are four buttons with LCD display - and I get that you can get all kinds of cool effects by going through that if not using a controller.

My understanding is that to get a controller to work with it - you set it to "d001"

What is d002, d003, etc used for? How do you use those with a 'compatible' controller?
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 10, 2017, 06:51:20 PM
BTW - these are the lights I bought.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/282139344282?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=581102673311&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on January 10, 2017, 08:33:15 PM
A DMX universe has 512 channels. Each channel can be assigned a number from a controller from 1 - 255. Imagine a mixing board with 512 channel faders. If the fader is at the bottom, that channel output is zero, if the fader is at the top, that channel output is 255, when the fader is in between then that output number is in between. That is all DMX is.

Your specific fixtures need 7 consecutive channels to operate its functions, any 7 consecutive channels out of the 512 available will do. It isn't channel 7, it is 7 individual channels or as my example above, you need 7 consecutive faders on your 512 fader mixing board to make this band (fixture) play.

Unfortunately the controller you bought only has 3 channels. Channels 1, 2 and 3. That makes it an odd ball controller as most controllers can operate the entire 512 channel DMX universe. Yours only broadcasts on 3 out of 512 channels which makes it only useful for very specific RGB fixtures probably only made by the same manufacturer as the controller. Unless you only plan on using those very specific lights, get rid of that controller. Other than some basic display case lighting using those proprietary fixtures, it is useless.

Now I said your lights need 7 consecutive channels, which 7 doesn't matter. That is where the d001, d002, etc comes into play, you have to let the fixture know where to start reading. Normally you would tell your controller that fixture 1 starts at dmx channel 1, then you would set your fixture to d001. Now your fixture will read channels 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and ignore the rest. Now if you want all the lights to do the same thing, then set them all to d001. However if you want individual control over each light then you have to set a new unique address for the rest of the lights. For the next light, if your controller allows you to set fixture 2 to the next available channel then set it to channel 8 (channels 1-7 are being used) and set your light to d008. That will tell your fixture to ignore all other channels except channels (8,9,10,11,12,13,14). Some cheapo controllers will make you go up 16 channels per fixture no matter what so in that case you would set the second fixtures address to d017. Keep on going until you have it done.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 10, 2017, 08:57:28 PM
Hi Neil, I'll do my best to help you out!

First of all, congratulations on deciding to invest the time to learn lighting and DMX.  There's definitely a bit of a learning curve to it, but once you understand what's really going on it's not difficult at all.  I'll also try to respect your wishes and not write a dissertation about DMX!

So before I address why your controller and lights aren't fully compatible, it's important to understand what DMX actually is.  To give a highly simplified definition, DMX is a digital protocol that is universal across intelligent lighting and is used to send information from a controller to your light fixtures, telling them what to do.  These "instructions" are broken down to 512 unique channels per universe as it's called, and each channel can be set to a value ranging from 0 to 255.  You string the lights together with DMX cable (often XLR cable is incorrectly used), starting with the controller and ending with the last fixture, or to be proper, a terminator.  This is called a Daisy Chain.   

Now, it's also important to understand that your controller does not know what light(s) are plugged into it, nor do the lights know which controller is sending them instructions.  Every DMX board on the market, from the ADJ DMX Operator to a GrandMA sends the exact same data packets to any light that might be listening.  So what does all this mean and how does it end up controlling a light fixture?  Well, each DMX light fixture will use a set number of those DMX channels I mentioned.  In your case, the fixtures you bought will use 7 channels of DMX.  That means you can control 7 unique parameters on these fixtures via DMX.  Many fixtures have different "modes", where you can utilize 3-channel control, 5-channel control, etc, as an example, depending on the fidelity of the control you want over your fixtures.  In your case, let's just stick with 7 channels for right now.

So it'll take 7 channels of DMX to control your fixture...but there are 512 channels of DMX!  What about the other 505?  Well, your 7 channels of control doesn't have to start with channel 1.  This is where setting the DMX address comes into play.  If you set the address of your fixture to d001 (Channel 1), the corresponding channels 1-7 on your light board will control the light.  If you set the address of your fixture to d101, then channels 101 - 107 on your light board will control the light.  Remember, lights and controllers can't detect each other, so you can repeat the address on other fixtures if you want identical behavior between them, you can overlap address in some cases (though you generally try to avoid that), or you can stagger your addressing to say 001, 008, 015, and 022 if you want individual control of each of your four lights, corresponding to channels 1 - 28 on your light board.  All the other channels of DMX that don't correspond to your fixture's address channel or subsequent 6 channels will pass harmlessly through the fixture and be ignored.  The lights also don't have to be in numerical order by address.  Make sense so far?

So why isn't your board fully compatible with the lights you just bought?  Well, not all light boards are created equally, and this is part of what sets a $50 light board apart from a $5000 light board.  Simply put, not all boards can control all 512 channels of a DMX universe.  As an example, my ETC Congo Kid light board controls 2 universes of DMX - that's two runs of 512 channels, each, totaling 1024 channels of DMX that I can control from that single desk.  In your case, the ADJ board you have can control only 3...so channels 1, 2, and 3 will have data streaming out from your board on them, the other 509 will be silent (0-value).  So...unless your lights have a 1-channel or 3-channel DMX mode on them, you won't be able to control all 7 channels of their DMX parameters from a board that can only utilize three channels and thus things won't work as you'd expect.   

Does that help straighten things out at all?  I don't want to overload you with info and am afraid I already wrote too much, but I'm trying to give you a full enough story so that you don't get even more confused!
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 10, 2017, 11:45:21 PM
Len and Jeff - thank you for taking the time to explain this to me.

If the light doesn't have a '3 channel mode' it won't be able to be controlled by the ADJ board I bought. Alternatively it could run 3 single channel dimmer packs set to channels 1, 2 and 3?

What I found was that I could get the red and green lights to kind of work, but the blue wouldn't light up at all.  So that would be because the first channel on the light is the ' R G B H master light-dimmer' (according to the sheet with the light) - and channel 4 which controls Blue isn't there at all.

According to the sheet - channel 5 is empty, channel 6 controls functions like strobe, gradients change, pulse change, etc. Channel 7 controls the speed of the settings in channel 6. So if I had a four channel board, I could at least get the all three channels to light up and give me various colours without the fancy functions like gradients/strobe/etc?

If I have this right, a board with 7 channels will control this light, if it has 14 channels it could control two lights independently with the second light set to start at channel 8, if 21 channels then 3 lights, etc.

I looked at the Chauvet FOOT-C 36 Channel Lighting Foot Controller - which the description classifies as serving six sets of 6 channel fixtures - if I used my 7 channel lights it wouldn't work great because I only see 6 'channel' knobs (labeled R,G,B,Am,Wh,UV) and so the 7th Channel wouldn't be addressed until the second 'set' and so wouldn't work well with my fixtures.

Whereas I looked at a 16-Channel DMX-512 Controller on ebay - which has 8 channel sliders which should actually work for two lights with the 8th channel being surplus to the light and the second light set to start at channel 9? If that's the case could I add on a 1 channel dimmer pack to control a spot light set to channel 8?
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 11, 2017, 12:11:11 AM
Len and Jeff - thank you for taking the time to explain this to me.

So Jeff, you said that if the light doesn't have a '3 channel mode' it won't be able to be controlled by the ADJ board I bought. What I found was that I could get the red and green lights to kind of work, but the blue wouldn't light up at all.

So that would be because of the lack of data on the other four channels that the light would 'expect' to be there?

So for my clarification - and I know there probably aren't boards that do this but... if a board has 7 channels it'll control this light, if it has 14 channels it could control two lights independently with the second light was set to d008, if 21 channels then 3 lights, etc.

I looked at the Chauvet FOOT-C 36 Channel Lighting Foot Controller - which the description classifies as serving six sets of 6 channel fixtures - if I used my 7 channel lights it wouldn't work because I only see 6 'channel' knobs (labeled R,G,B,Am,Wh,UV) and so the 7th Channel wouldn't be addressed and so wouldn't work with that light.

Whereas I looked at a 16-Channel DMX-512 Controller on ebay - which has 8 channel sliders which should actually work for two lights with the 8th channel being surplus to the light and the second light set to start at channel 9. If that's the case could I add on a 1 channel dimmer pack to control a spot light set to channel 8?




Yes the foot-c is the wrong choice for you too.  It's clunky too.  I have one and tried real hard to like it but it just isn't as easy to use for a band member that is used to a 4Bar or such.


That eBay listing doesn't show the DMX assignments.  Can you scan the table from the instructions (or take a pic) and post it?


The other item that I think is unclear to you is the value after the d001 for example is the starting DMX address of the first channel of the fixture.  It's an offset value that is added to whatever function is controlled by channel 1.


So if channel 1 is red, 2 is green and 3 is blue and 4 is dimmer 5 is flash and you set the fixture to d006 then that fixture will respond to red on channel 6, green on 7, blue on 8 dimmer on nine and flasher on 10.  Does that make sense?


Two fixtures can have the same offset and the fixtures will then respond together.  You can't have dissimilar fixtures on the same channels because they perform different functions.







Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on January 11, 2017, 12:18:24 AM
What I found was that I could get the red and green lights to kind of work, but the blue wouldn't light up at all.


So that would be because of the lack of data on the other four channels that the light would 'expect' to be there?

Each channel would control 1 attribute of the fixture.
For example:

channel 1 - master dimmer
channel 2 - red
channel 3 - green
channel 4 - blue
channel 5 - strobe
channel 6 - preset colors
channel 7 - built in shows (color fade, etc)

If you were missing channels 4 -7, you wouldn't be able to access those attributes. The manual of your lights should tell you what each channel does. If it doesn't then trial and error would be the only way to figure it out.

So for my clarification - and I know there probably aren't boards that do this but... if a board has 7 channels it'll control this light, if it has 14 channels it could control two lights independently with the second light was set to d008, if 21 channels then 3 lights, etc.

Exactly, however some boards (like the obey series) will allocate 16 channels for a fixture and if your fixture only uses 7 channels then the remaining 9 go to waste. There is a bit of a work around for this but it isn't ideal.

So if I looked at the Chauvet FOOT-C 36 Channel Lighting Foot Controller - which the description classifies as serving six sets of 6 channel fixtures - if I used my 7 channel lights I could use the first 35 channels for 5 lights? Or would I need a board designed for 7 channel fixtures?

You need a board designed for 7 (or more) channels because the remaining channels of the light would be on a different fixture page. It would be too confusing to keep track of and program, especially for on the fly changes like dimmer changes.

Assuming I could use the 7 channel lights, can I use mixed lights - ie if had a spot that was 1 channel (ie a white spot) that could be on the 36th channel?

Yes, DMX is mix and match. You could have a 13 channel fixture followed by a 5 channel one, followed by a 17 channel one. As long as you address each one to your board then all is good. You have 512 channels to use as you wish. They don't even have to be all lights, hazers, fans, relay packs can all be in there too.

Maybe tell us what you are trying to do and someone could recommend a board for you that fits your budget.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 12:35:31 AM

Yes the foot-c is the wrong choice for you too.  It's clunky too.  I have one and tried real hard to like it but it just isn't as easy to use for a band member that is used to a 4Bar or such.


That eBay listing doesn't show the DMX assignments.  Can you scan the table from the instructions (or take a pic) and post it?


The other item that I think is unclear to you is the value after the d001 for example is the starting DMX address of the first channel of the fixture.  It's an offset value that is added to whatever function is controlled by channel 1.


So if channel 1 is red, 2 is green and 3 is blue and 4 is dimmer 5 is flash and you set the fixture to d006 then that fixture will respond to red on channel 6, green on 7, blue on 8 dimmer on nine and flasher on 10.  Does that make sense?


Two fixtures can have the same offset and the fixtures will then respond together.  You can't have dissimilar fixtures on the same channels because they perform different functions.

Sorry  - I was busy revising my previous post as ideas occurred to me.

Here's the sheet that came with the fixtures. Sorry for the awful iPhone scans.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 12:49:12 AM
Here's what I have - four 36 watt 7 channel LED fixtures and three 25 watt 7 channel LED fixtures. As well I have two non-dmx 3 watt white spot lights. I also have a 8 or so DMX cables.

I have two light stands with the ability to put a 10' truss between them. I also have a background stand (from photography) that I put up a sheet with our logo on - and I clamped the 25 watt lights to.

Mostly this is for use with my band - however I may use for other events (I occasionally rent out the PA for business / presenter functions or other bands.)

Until now, I've just set each light to cycle slowly through colours on its own.

Ideally I'd have separate control on each light, but I also don't mind ganging some together in order to save channels - my thought was the three 25 watt lights set to be the same behind the band and two of the 36 watt lights on each side from the front of the band each with its own control.

Ideally my budget would be $100 but I could go $200 - but I've already spent a lot in the last year on the PA so money is starting to get tight. I know that's really low and I wish I had enough for a really cool controller, but this is what it is.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on January 11, 2017, 12:54:26 AM
Well, it looks like you are in luck; bottom of page 2:

press D(save key) for 5 seconds to enter 3 channel mode, then press D again to save.

That gives you 3 channel RGB mode. You should be able to use your current lighting controller although you won't have individual control of your lights, they will all move together. You probably still have to address all of them to d001.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 12:57:20 AM
Yes the foot-c is the wrong choice for you too.  It's clunky too.  I have one and tried real hard to like it but it just isn't as easy to use for a band member that is used to a 4Bar or such.

Yeah, I figured but I liked it as an example of a controller that wouldn't necessarily work for me anyways. I haven't seen the 4Bar - will have to look that up.

That eBay listing doesn't show the DMX assignments.  Can you scan the table from the instructions (or take a pic) and post it?

See previous post - thanks for the help.

The other item that I think is unclear to you is the value after the d001 for example is the starting DMX address of the first channel of the fixture.  It's an offset value that is added to whatever function is controlled by channel 1.

So if channel 1 is red, 2 is green and 3 is blue and 4 is dimmer 5 is flash and you set the fixture to d006 then that fixture will respond to red on channel 6, green on 7, blue on 8 dimmer on nine and flasher on 10.  Does that make sense?

Actually, I think I got that - if a controller has 14 continuous channels (outside of a few really oddball ones like some of the Obey series?) then I'd set the second light to d008 to get it to use channel 8 as the light's channel 1.

Two fixtures can have the same offset and the fixtures will then respond together.  You can't have dissimilar fixtures on the same channels because they perform different functions.

Yeah - that makes total sense.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 01:00:16 AM
Well, it looks like you are in luck; bottom of page 2:

press D(save key) for 5 seconds to enter 3 channel mode, then press D again to save.

That gives you 3 channel RGB mode. You should be able to use your current lighting controller although you won't have individual control of your lights, they will all move together. You probably still have to address all of them to d001.

Okay - will have to try that, I couldn't make head nor tail of that - but now you point it out that makes sense. Thank you Len.

However - it still comes down to the fact that now that I know a bit more about what is happening, its the wrong controller for me.   :o
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on January 11, 2017, 01:01:48 AM
It seems if you ever want to go back and get out of 3 channel mode, press A for 3 seconds to revert back to factory setting.

For what you want to do an Obey40 would do the trick for ~$120. Or if you have a spare laptop kicking around you could get into software DMX using a freeware program and a $50 dongle.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 01:10:11 AM
It seems if you ever want to go back and get out of 3 channel mode, press A for 3 seconds to revert back to factory setting.

For what you want to do an Obey40 would do the trick for ~$120. Or if you have a spare laptop kicking around you could get into software DMX using a freeware program and a $50 dongle.

It was mentioned previously that the Obey series assigns something like 16 channels to 'a fixture' - but since it has 12 fixtures that wouldn't be a problem right now. I guess if I get really fancy with the lights, just get a better controller at that time.

Thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 01:59:39 AM
Well, it looks like you are in luck; bottom of page 2:

press D(save key) for 5 seconds to enter 3 channel mode, then press D again to save.

That gives you 3 channel RGB mode. You should be able to use your current lighting controller although you won't have individual control of your lights, they will all move together. You probably still have to address all of them to d001.

Well Len - great idea. However all that does, in practical terms, is adjust the maximum brightness (voltage) of each channel, not change it to three channel use.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 02:01:50 AM
For what you want to do an Obey40 would do the trick for ~$120. Or if you have a spare laptop kicking around you could get into software DMX using a freeware program and a $50 dongle.

I guess should have mentioned I'm spending Canadian dollars so the Obey 40 is about $170 CAN - still doable. The Obey10 is about $130 CAN, its a bit more limited (could only add one more light to my collection) but other than that, any thoughts?
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 11, 2017, 02:13:46 AM
Well Len - great iead, however all that does is, in practical terms, is adjust the maximum brightness (voltage) of each channel, not change it to three channel use.


You sure about that?  The chart clearly shows a 4 channel mode with one channel unused.


Also LED's don't change brightness based on voltage.  Since you took the time to put the voltage in parenthesis it seemed useful to point out that analog fixture correlations are not correct.  It is best to think in terms of brightness.  The larger the value the brighter it is.  LED's are semiconductors they are either on or off so to dim them they are turned on and off rapidly enough the human eye can't tell.  There is a way to change the bias current but that doesn't produce a smooth dimming effect.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on January 11, 2017, 05:05:22 AM
Well Len - great idea. However all that does, in practical terms, is adjust the maximum brightness (voltage) of each channel, not change it to three channel use.

I guess that's what they mean when they say "ammend current magnitude"

These translations can be hard to understand. So after you adjust them, it just reverts back to 7 channel mode then?
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Steve Garris on January 11, 2017, 01:11:18 PM

Ideally I'd have separate control on each light, but I also don't mind ganging some together in order to save channels - my thought was the three 25 watt lights set to be the same behind the band and two of the 36 watt lights on each side from the front of the band each with its own control.


You're getting great advice here. Regarding the above, your controller, weather it be 4CH or 16CH will be able to do this. For example, you would set the dmx address for the front lights to d001. These lights will do the same thing, together.

Now for the (3) 25 W back lights, you would set the dmx address to the next available number: d005 if using the 4 CH setting, or d008 if using the 7 channel setting. Now the back lights will work together.

Once you have your dmx assignments set up properly, I recommend programming "scenes", which allows you to simply push a single button to get both front wash and back lighting as programmed. You could have several "scenes" where the front spots stay steady and the back lights change. Most of these boards have "chase" options, and also the chase can be sound activated. I've used an Obey 70, with similar lights as you have in this fashion.

There are a lot of cheap, $100 Chinese controllers that are available online that would give you a basic dmx platform, with programmable scenes.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 11, 2017, 04:20:52 PM
You sure about that?  The chart clearly shows a 4 channel mode with one channel unused.

It does, which makes me think the logic board in these lights is also used in an RBGA or RGBW unit, and the manufacturer chose not to reprogram the chip accordingly.  Not a big deal in "4-channel" mode, but a real waste of a channel in 7-channel mode!  Gotta love the Chinese ebay lights...  My point being though that even though it's "4-channel mode", you can treat it as 3-channel since overlapping that last channel won't cause any noticeable side effects. 

I guess should have mentioned I'm spending Canadian dollars so the Obey 40 is about $170 CAN - still doable. The Obey10 is about $130 CAN, its a bit more limited (could only add one more light to my collection) but other than that, any thoughts?

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the Obey series (or the ADJ DMX Operator and similar).  The reason being is how they program.  In certain cases they'll fit the bill and budget, and there are many happy users out there.  My complaint, besides the rather limited options of how to run your shows, is what you've already discovered - the board breaks down its channel count into "fixtures".  This works out all fine and dandy if your lights are either 16 channels or can be grouped in multiples of 16 (for the Obey 40), but if they don't you'll either be wasting channels or trying to sort out some very complicated programming.  Remember, the board doesn't know what fixtures are plugged into it, so it's more shoehorning than it is a technical limitation.  You're not limited to 16 fixtures on an Obey 40, but depending on how sophisticated they are things can get tricky.  As an aside, larger boards feature much more open patching options for the buttons and faders, so this isn't a constraint you normally deal with on larger consoles.

Given your budget, I'd strongly suggest looking at the software options on the market right now.  So long as you have a spare laptop that you don't mind using, you'll have far more options and capabilities with something like MagicQ PC or M-PC than you will with the Obey 40, and you can field either option for less than the Obey 40.  Take a look at the free downloadable demos.  Software solutions tend to have a much steeper learning curve than something like the Obey 40, but you're also working with a much more sophisticated controller.  There is no shortage of hardware versus software debates on this forum, so give those a read too and see what you think.  Good luck!
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 06:18:02 PM
I guess that's what they mean when they say "ammend current magnitude"

These translations can be hard to understand. So after you adjust them, it just reverts back to 7 channel mode then?


You sure about that?  The chart clearly shows a 4 channel mode with one channel unused.

Also LED's don't change brightness based on voltage.  Since you took the time to put the voltage in parenthesis it seemed useful to point out that analog fixture correlations are not correct.  It is best to think in terms of brightness.  The larger the value the brighter it is.  LED's are semiconductors they are either on or off so to dim them they are turned on and off rapidly enough the human eye can't tell.  There is a way to change the bias current but that doesn't produce a smooth dimming effect.

True, voltage was the only reference I came up with at that moment. But what ever adjusts the brightness of the channel, that what this setting does. It does not go to any kind of 3 or 4 channel operation by holding down the D button.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 06:27:09 PM
It does, which makes me think the logic board in these lights is also used in an RBGA or RGBW unit, and the manufacturer chose not to reprogram the chip accordingly.  Not a big deal in "4-channel" mode, but a real waste of a channel in 7-channel mode!  Gotta love the Chinese ebay lights...  My point being though that even though it's "4-channel mode", you can treat it as 3-channel since overlapping that last channel won't cause any noticeable side effects. 

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the Obey series (or the ADJ DMX Operator and similar).  The reason being is how they program.  In certain cases they'll fit the bill and budget, and there are many happy users out there.  My complaint, besides the rather limited options of how to run your shows, is what you've already discovered - the board breaks down its channel count into "fixtures".  This works out all fine and dandy if your lights are either 16 channels or can be grouped in multiples of 16 (for the Obey 40), but if they don't you'll either be wasting channels or trying to sort out some very complicated programming.  Remember, the board doesn't know what fixtures are plugged into it, so it's more shoehorning than it is a technical limitation.  You're not limited to 16 fixtures on an Obey 40, but depending on how sophisticated they are things can get tricky.  As an aside, larger boards feature much more open patching options for the buttons and faders, so this isn't a constraint you normally deal with on larger consoles.

Given your budget, I'd strongly suggest looking at the software options on the market right now.  So long as you have a spare laptop that you don't mind using, you'll have far more options and capabilities with something like MagicQ PC or M-PC than you will with the Obey 40, and you can field either option for less than the Obey 40.  Take a look at the free downloadable demos.  Software solutions tend to have a much steeper learning curve than something like the Obey 40, but you're also working with a much more sophisticated controller.  There is no shortage of hardware versus software debates on this forum, so give those a read too and see what you think.  Good luck!

Thanks for the ideas.

I actually have a generic usb / dmx dongle from ebay that came with PC software, but I'm a Mac guy and this thing doesn't work with any of the software I've tried (and I've gone through  6 or 8 now.) Apparently the newer OS X's have some issue with DMX - but there may be a solution I haven't found, being a newbie in all this.

And from what I gather, the cheapie dongle thing I've got isn't worth having in the first place, so buying a better usb /dmx converter and even a used PC is beyond my current budget.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 11, 2017, 07:45:13 PM
Thanks for the ideas.

I actually have a generic usb / dmx dongle from ebay that came with PC software, but I'm a Mac guy and this thing doesn't work with any of the software I've tried (and I've gone through  6 or 8 now.) Apparently the newer OS X's have some issue with DMX - but there may be a solution I haven't found, being a newbie in all this.

And from what I gather, the cheapie dongle thing I've got isn't worth having in the first place, so buying a better usb /dmx converter and even a used PC is beyond my current budget.

It sounds to me like you're having a driver issue and not so much a software issue.  Do you know which exact dongle you have?  Unfortunately not all dongles (or USB-DMX converters if you prefer) are compatible with all software platforms.  The Enttec Pro is one of the more interchangeable dongles on the market, will work with MagicQ PC, M-PC, and a number of others, and will set you back around $150.  If you like MagicQ, they sell an interface for $99 that will get you a full universe of DMX, which is likely your cheapest option. 

If you're set on using a Mac, MagicQ PC will work for you.  I believe M-PC is Windows only.  You can also try running Linux, which is what I did for the 10 years I used MagicQ PC as my laptop solution...never a single crash or lock-up.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 11:31:26 PM
Well - so far everything sounds like it makes sense and thanks to everyone for your input, suggestions and valued insight.

However I've run into a brick wall.

I'm making use of an Obey10 I picked up today (gently used, for a steal) just to get some of these things into practice while deciding what route to go in the longer run - got the lights hooked up to it, figured out which channels to set each light to to work on each of the first four 'fixtures' and even got lights to light up. Well - one light. Out of four.

Each light worked by itself on the Fixture I set for it ,and I got all the functions to work for each light, but as soon as I plugged in two or more lights - nothing. Zero.

I tested two of my cables and each worked fine for one light - hooked up a light with one - it was working - and strung the other tested cable to the next light; neither worked. Tried each terminator (I have two because why only have one?) Nothing.

I tried setting two lights to channel 1 to gang them - nothing.

My suspicion is crap lights. But why? Each one works by itself.

I thought this stuff was supposed to be fairly easy.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 11, 2017, 11:46:02 PM
Ran a couple more tests. Various combinations of lights - so all four have the same issue, no matter the order.

Then put two lights to a program mode of random fading colours and connected them by cable just to see if they'd turn off -  nope, they kept merrily running along.

Oh and putting a terminator on any one light killed it.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Rob Gow on January 12, 2017, 11:16:22 AM
It was mentioned previously that the Obey series assigns something like 16 channels to 'a fixture' - but since it has 12 fixtures that wouldn't be a problem right now. I guess if I get really fancy with the lights, just get a better controller at that time.

Thanks for the suggestion.

With 16 channels for every "fixture" you can actually have two 7 channel lights on each "fixture" on the controller
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 12, 2017, 11:41:42 AM
With 16 channels for every "fixture" you can actually have two 7 channel lights on each "fixture" on the controller

Yes, I did figure that out, but left it at one per fixture for the  moment so as not to cause extra strain on my brain for the moment.  ;D
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 12, 2017, 11:46:37 AM
As for lights that don't want to work together - would a splitter like this help isolate each one?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LED-Controller-DMX-8-Channel-Output-DMX512-Signal-Amplifier-Splitter-Distributor/222254953371
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Rick Powell on January 12, 2017, 11:58:41 AM
Ran a couple more tests. Various combinations of lights - so all four have the same issue, no matter the order.

Then put two lights to a program mode of random fading colours and connected them by cable just to see if they'd turn off -  nope, they kept merrily running along.

Oh and putting a terminator on any one light killed it.

Sounds like a fixture problem to me. If they all have the same d001 address, they should all respond identically, and usually a terminator is not needed with a short string in my experience (we run 20 lights on the same daisy chain and don't terminate and works fine, although we have a terminator if we need it). I once had a mover that would individually respond to a controller when hooked up to dmx, but would not work if anything else was added to the chain, and sounds similar to the issue you are having. Maybe borrow a few fixtures that are known to work, set them to d001 and d017 and daisy chain, and make sure it's not the controller?

As far as using a splitter, with my faulty dmx light, it didn't help. If you have to go to the extent of using a splitter to try to get a few lights to work, its probably something else. Splitters are usually only necessary to allow a long string of lights where the signal would be weak if they were all on one daisy chain run (40 lights or so), or to shorten DMX cable runs.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on January 12, 2017, 12:23:54 PM
A few things to check:

Are you using DMX cable, is it plugged in all the way? Most problems like that can be traced to the cable or connections. You also have to daisy chain them, a mic splitter won't work.
Are you hot swapping in the lights or did you try powering everything down, then up again?
On the back of the controller there is a DMX polarity switch, did you try both positions?
Set the lights to d001 and try your 3 channel controller, I know you only get dimmer, red and green. If they work on that controller then you'll know its the obey10.

Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 12, 2017, 04:54:19 PM
I thought this stuff was supposed to be fairly easy.

It's easy enough from a technical standpoint, but there's also the saying "you get what you pay for".  You certainly don't need to spend a premium to get into lighting, but at the same time a company that's too cheap/lazy to use properly programmed logic boards doesn't exactly scream high quality to me.  Many forum members have had good luck with ebay lights, but it's definitely a mixed bag. 

I'd also agree that this seems to be a cable or connector issue.  Despite the low quality, I find it hard to believe that all four lights are broken.  I'd also be surprised if this is a controller issue.  I agree with what Rick says though - try all four with your ADJ board and see what happens.  That'll at least rule out the Obey 10, or confirm why you were able to get the unit so cheaply, but I hope that isn't the case.

A spiltter probably won't help you, and even if it did, I'd vote to spend the same money on better lights.  Even if you did need a splitter, please get a decent one.  Though I'm not 100% anti-Chinese no-name equipment, the more low-end product you put into the system, the more weird things you can expect to deal with.

Really, the best way to troubleshoot a problem like this is label every cable and fixture, and start swapping things around until you notice a pattern, starting with one fixture and one cable and building up until you can identify the faulty piece.  Good luck!
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 12, 2017, 08:16:01 PM
A few things to check:

Are you using DMX cable, is it plugged in all the way? Most problems like that can be traced to the cable or connections. You also have to daisy chain them, a mic splitter won't work.
Are you hot swapping in the lights or did you try powering everything down, then up again?
On the back of the controller there is a DMX polarity switch, did you try both positions?
Set the lights to d001 and try your 3 channel controller, I know you only get dimmer, red and green. If they work on that controller then you'll know its the obey10.

Hi Len, Jeff and Rick - thanks for all the ideas.

Here's the latest development - just tried the ADJ CH3 - and yup, they both lit and I got the red/green channels to work on both. Then I hooked up all four, reset all to d001 and again, all four lit up and let me adjust red/green channels.

I'm going to grab my other three lights (of a different wattage/make but also Chinese made) and see if they work on the obey10.

PS - yes, all brand new DMX cabling - and tested each to make sure they light at least one light. No, not using a mic splitter.  Yes, found the polarity switch but not difference in response. I try to power down each time, but occasionally hot swapped.


Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 12, 2017, 08:52:27 PM
Here's the latest development - just tried the ADJ CH3 - and yup, they both lit and I got the red/green channels to work on both. Then I hooked up all four, reset all to d001 and again, all four lit up and let me adjust red/green channels.

Well, that seems fairly indicative of an issue with the Obey 10.  Not what I would have expected, but let's see if we can make the best of it.  Just out of curiosity, have you reset the board to factory defaults?  If not, give that a try.  Doubt it'll make a difference, but at this point why not?  I don't think this board lets the user adjust the speed of the output itself to help with framing errors either.  Try some of your other lights and see what happens.   
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 13, 2017, 03:02:28 AM
Should re-name this thread - The Rabbit Hole.

I brought back my other three (older) LED DMX 24 watt lights from practice, set them up on the Obey 10, and - once I figured out how to set the DIP switches again - get all three to work just fine, thank you.

So I added one of the newer 36 watt ones into the mix and it worked just fine as well - whether same channel or on a different channel/fixture, and whether first or last in the daisy chain.

Then I spotted something that made me hopeful - the power supply for the Obey 10 was a 9 volt but the input said 12 - so I swapped that out to a 12.

I added a second new 36 watt light into the mix, and both new lights went out. The older 24 watt ones all still worked.

SO my guess would be an incompatibility between the 36 watt lights and the Obey 10 that only shows up when 2 or more are hooked up. I haven't been able to find a description of how to adjust speed or frames (not that I know what those are) but I did find the reset to factory method. Didn't help though.

I don't have enough hair left on my head to be pulling any out, but I surely would if I could.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 13, 2017, 03:16:47 AM
Should re-name this thread - The Rabbit Hole.

I brought back my other three (older) LED DMX 24 watt lights from practice, set them up on the Obey 10, and - once I figured out how to set the DIP switches again - get all three to work just fine, thank you.

So I added one of the newer 36 watt ones into the mix and it worked just fine as well - whether same channel or on a different channel/fixture, and whether first or last in the daisy chain.

Then I spotted something that made me hopeful - the power supply for the Obey 10 was a 9 volt but the input said 12 - so I swapped that out to a 12.

I added a second new 36 watt light into the mix, and both new lights went out. The older 24 watt ones all still worked.

SO my guess would be an incompatibility between the 36 watt lights and the Obey 10 that only shows up when 2 or more are hooked up. I haven't been able to find a description of how to adjust speed or frames (not that I know what those are) but I did find the reset to factory method. Didn't help though.

I don't have enough hair left on my head to be pulling any out, but I surely would if I could.


Fascinating.  Do you have a decent voltmeter or a scope? 


Take a DMX cable apart to expose the pins.  Measure DC volts between the + and - pins.  If you have scope what is the swing?


You are on the right track with the power supply.  Sounds like you may not have a good signal.  One other thing to think about it cheap lights may bot properly regenerate the signal and simply tap and pass.  That would create a slight load so downstream fixtures would be more effected by the degraded signal.



Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 13, 2017, 12:14:37 PM

Fascinating.  Do you have a decent voltmeter or a scope? 


Take a DMX cable apart to expose the pins.  Measure DC volts between the + and - pins.  If you have scope what is the swing?
I do have a meter, but no scope - will have to try measuring this weekend.

You are on the right track with the power supply.  Sounds like you may not have a good signal.  One other thing to think about it cheap lights may bot properly regenerate the signal and simply tap and pass.  That would create a slight load so downstream fixtures would be more effected by the degraded signal.

What I thought interesting was that the other lights worked fine, even after putting the 36 watt first in the daisy chain, and the other 36 watt last - the other two lights still worked fine.

So yes, the two 36 watts would stop working when both in the daisychain - but the two 24 watts continued to work fine in the middle of the daisy chain. But only with the Obey10.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 13, 2017, 04:06:12 PM
So - some success today. I was up near Long & McQuade so I popped in and asked what they might know about the issues I'm having with DMX. All the usual answers - but they rent out the Orion ORControl - which is a handles 12 lights with 16 channels each, all the usual scene's, chases, etc, as well as midi and a joystick for fixtures that work with that.

So I rented one for the weekend to see if it's better than the Chauvet - and sure enough got all 7 of my lights lit up at once (in a quick test, mostly ganged on channel one but this was the best light show I've had with DMX.)

I can't find any information beyond the basic on the Orion - here's the model that someone's selling on eBay: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ORION-ORCONTROL-UNIVERSAL-DMX512-JOYSTICK-MIDI-LIGHT-CONTROLLER-15-INSTANT-OFF-/322376771208

I can get it for about $40 CAN less than the eBay price with shipping etc.

Anyone know anything about Orion products?
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 13, 2017, 04:25:37 PM
So yes, the two 36 watts would stop working when both in the daisychain - but the two 24 watts continued to work fine in the middle of the daisy chain. But only with the Obey10.

What happens if you alternate the fixtures - 36/24/36/24?  If the last 24 responds but the second 36 doesn't, you can probably deduce that there's something weird going on with the 36s.  It might be that they have less tolerance for "barely in spec" DMX signals, and using the wrong AC adapter on the controller probably isn't helping.  If my memory serves me correctly, the voltage on both data pins (2 and 3) should be between +12 volts and -7 volts when measured to ground (pin 1).  If your multimeter supports it, set it to "max" and "min" voltage and take a reading with each so that you can get a proper range since the voltage on these pins will change very quickly. 

Updating to fit your most recent reply - glad to hear you had some success!  Your problem is probably a combination of poor signal from the Obey 10 (which is surprising, and may be due to the wrong AC adapter) and the 36s not having a high tolerance less than perfect signal.  If you get some time and feel adventurous, pop open the 36s and your cables to check the wiring.  Even a single strand of wire (usually the ground) touching a place that it shouldn't can also cause this type of weird behavior. 

As far as the Orion board - never heard of them.  It looks to be similar to the Obey 70, which despite not liking, would choose over this since you'd get a warranty and return policy on if it doesn't work.  Also, buy new...please...from a reputable dealer and not ebay.  If cost is really that big of a concern then I'd suggest pursuing a software option, but buying used budget-level equipment usually brings along more trouble than it's worth.  Just my two cents though! 
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 13, 2017, 09:11:20 PM
What happens if you alternate the fixtures - 36/24/36/24?  If the last 24 responds but the second 36 doesn't, you can probably deduce that there's something weird going on with the 36s.  It might be that they have less tolerance for "barely in spec" DMX signals, and using the wrong AC adapter on the controller probably isn't helping.  If my memory serves me correctly, the voltage on both data pins (2 and 3) should be between +12 volts and -7 volts when measured to ground (pin 1).  If your multimeter supports it, set it to "max" and "min" voltage and take a reading with each so that you can get a proper range since the voltage on these pins will change very quickly. 

Did one last test and yes, the first position 36 and third position 36 watters did not work, but the 24watters in 2nd and 4th position (daisy chain wise) did work.

I'll try measuring the voltage later this weekend when I have some time just to see if there's something funky with this board. But, I got it from a guy who'd bought it for his church but the person in charge of sound and light at the church felt it wasn't big enough for their use, which is why - according to the guy I bought it from - they were selling it after using it 3 times. So hypothetically it should be in proper shape. It did come with the original box, but no instructions.

Updating to fit your most recent reply - glad to hear you had some success!  Your problem is probably a combination of poor signal from the Obey 10 (which is surprising, and may be due to the wrong AC adapter) and the 36s not having a high tolerance less than perfect signal.  If you get some time and feel adventurous, pop open the 36s and your cables to check the wiring.  Even a single strand of wire (usually the ground) touching a place that it shouldn't can also cause this type of weird behavior. 

Btw - I did find and use a properly configured 12 volt adapter and no change in behaviours. I would agree with your assessment.

And I had actually popped one open to see what was inside and there were no loose or misplaced wires, that I could see. And it would have to be on all four as I had tried all the combinations to see if any two would work together.


As far as the Orion board - never heard of them.  It looks to be similar to the Obey 70, which despite not liking, would choose over this since you'd get a warranty and return policy on if it doesn't work.  Also, buy new...please...from a reputable dealer and not ebay.  If cost is really that big of a concern then I'd suggest pursuing a software option, but buying used budget-level equipment usually brings along more trouble than it's worth.  Just my two cents though!

The Orion board is available new in box at the Long & McQuade I rented it from at the price I mentioned was well below the eBay cost of one I found. So yes it would have a return policy and full factory warranty plus I'd probably get the extended warranty which would allow an in store replacement if things go wrong.

One thing I like about L&M is they are not on commission - and they've been very happy to always tell me when gear is garbage. But the Orion boards seem to have worked well for their clients and considering these are in the rental pool (we know how that gear is treated) and they haven't had problems, at least speaks well for the quality of the boards.

Honestly I'd be reluctant to try another Chauvet board without renting it first to make sure it works, but non are for rent that I can find locally. I have considered going the software route, but I'm the guitarist in our band and while I could easily reach over and hit a button to call up a scene a chase between songs, I wouldn't be sitting down at the computer to call them up.

A big thank you to everyone who chimed in with great answers and suggestions.

I'll have some more questions about the finer points of all this, but I'll let what we've got so far sink in for a bit.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Neil Speers on January 14, 2017, 02:50:59 AM
Just looking at the Orion site http://orion-fxlights.com/ and noticed that associated companies include Yorkville and Traynor amps (as well as a few others) which makes me think they are in the same corporate group, not to mention association with Long & McQuade. Yorkville and Traynor both build very decent products, so I would hope the Orion products would be decent quality.
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 14, 2017, 10:27:07 AM
Did one last test and yes, the first position 36 and third position 36 watters did not work, but the 24watters in 2nd and 4th position (daisy chain wise) did work.

I'll try measuring the voltage later this weekend when I have some time just to see if there's something funky with this board. But, I got it from a guy who'd bought it for his church but the person in charge of sound and light at the church felt it wasn't big enough for their use, which is why - according to the guy I bought it from - they were selling it after using it 3 times. So hypothetically it should be in proper shape. It did come with the original box, but no instructions.

Btw - I did find and use a properly configured 12 volt adapter and no change in behaviours. I would agree with your assessment.

Interesting.  Yeah, if you get some time try to measure the "raw" output from both boards to see if there's a difference, and then measure the output coming from one of your 36w units, with both boards.  My thought is that without an O-scope you won't be able to see the problem with any degree of certainty, but it's worth a try!

I don't blame you for not wanting to try another Chauvet board.  The only reason I suggest something a little more mainstream than the board you mention is so that there's a wide userbase that can help answer questions if you have them, especially when it comes to programming.  That's interesting that they're somehow associated with Yorkville.  Many people on these forums use Yorkville products with good results for what they are, myself included.  Knowing that Yorkville is a Canadian brand, maybe the Orion products have more of a representation up by you than they do here in the United States?  Either way, as long as you get it from a dealer that will honor returns, which it sounds like you are, I don't think you can go wrong.  You still won't have the output and capabilities found with an equivalent software controller, but there are pros and cons with going either route.  Maybe try bringing one of your 36w lights in and see what they make of it?  Have fun!
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Steve Garris on January 15, 2017, 05:54:08 PM
I've seen many ad's for that Chinese board. This one is very similar, and you should read the excellent review of this board at the bottom of this page written by CONVEY.

https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-612120-16-Channel-DMX-512-Controller/dp/B00JJ7XPHK/ref=pd_day0_267_15?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00JJ7XPHK&pd_rd_r=EJ89TN5YCH2ZAJYZNKQ7&pd_rd_w=Q1cwj&pd_rd_wg=dxuty&psc=1&refRID=EJ89TN5YCH2ZAJYZNKQ7
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Jerome Malsack on January 16, 2017, 08:43:30 PM
I have not read the complete history on this topic but wonder if anyone asked about the DMX terminator.  120 ohm resister between pins 2 and 3. 
This terminator helps to prevent noise on the line that can cause some strange operations. 
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 17, 2017, 06:42:22 PM
I have not read the complete history on this topic but wonder if anyone asked about the DMX terminator.  120 ohm resister between pins 2 and 3. 
This terminator helps to prevent noise on the line that can cause some strange operations.

Yeah, the terminator came up a little while back.  The funny thing though is that for a system this small, there should be no need for one, yet apparently when the OP plugs one in it kills the light.  My guess is that there's somehow stray power leaking into the DMX lines.  I've actually been shocked by a DMX cable coming out of a Chinese LED Par, so this kind of thing can happen.  Good thing it didn't toast anything else!
Title: Re: DMX basicis for a dense soul - thread
Post by: Stevens R. Miller on January 21, 2017, 11:05:13 AM
I'm fairly new to DMX myself, Neil. Also new to this forum/site, but it looks like you're getting some very good advice already. One thing that has been helping me is a freely downloadable program called "DMXControl (http://www.dmxcontrol.org/)." If you have a USB/DMX adapter, your computer can control an entire DMX universe with it. Even without the adapter, I've found the program to be a very helpful "offline" learning tool. Maybe you'd find it useful.

(Disclaimer: I don't have anything to do with DMXControl. I'm just a user.)