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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Blake Short on June 17, 2014, 11:59:14 AM
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So i have always been the sound guy for the band... no big deal...
until i decided to dump my mackie cfx16 and buy a presonus 16.4.2AI! Now that there is a lot more possible to do with this board... i'm kind of at a loss of what to do with it! All i know is less is more in terms of achieving good sound. I'm working on trying to not overmix my rig and I just need a better understanding of the mindset off a live sound engineer! We do about 100+ shows a year in the MI/IN/OH area, so becoming a serious sound man is very high on my priority list because my ears and hands are in control of what the people are hearing which to me is just as big a deal as playing and singing the right notes!
Now, with that little bit of background (and hopefully not boring any of you!) I need some direction on how to understand what this new soundboard is allowing me to do. At heart I am an analog guy, and anything digital mentioned to me i'll generally put my nose up in the air to it haha. That being said, I know that not all digital things are bad and after much consideration I decided to get the presonus because it is basically everything that i need as a sound man for the next couple years doing smaller gigs and running sound for the band myself. (was going to put together an analog rig but everything is in this one counsel and it just seemed like the way to go, plus a very good friend of ours who runs sound for a living recommended this board to me)
SO, here I am prosoundweb! I look forward to learning how to tackling this seemingly daunting task of being a great sound man haha and i know it wont be easy, but i have a good ear and i just need to be able to analyze in my brain what my ear is trying to tell me!
So far i have been working exclusively on monitor mixes and trying to understand feedback frequencies so we can have the stage loud enough so we can deliver a good show (cause if the band can't hear themselves or we are dealing with feedback, how can we even play a show worth listening to?) I downloaded a little feedback trainer app for my computer and I have been working with that... I also downloaded a frequency analyzer for my iphone so that I can quickly adjust frequencies i need to for now, but i'm hoping to rely on my ears a bit more for that later in my career.
Anyways thanks for reading my little (or large!) introduction of myself and i'll be looking to pick your brains a lot here in the near future!
Blake Short
www.thewhistlestoprevue.com
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First things first
What instruments are involved
How many vocal mics?
How many monitors.
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It's cliche, but keep it simple.
When I was using analog, I had eight channels of compressors, eight channels of gates, and four effects processors. And I wanted more. I put gates on every drum. I put compressors on vocals, horns, guitars, bass, etc.. Everything I could. Going to digital was going to be great. Gate and compressor on every channel!
I've been using a digital console for three years now and I use gates on three channels and compressors on two channels. Just because you have all the stuff that comes with digital you don't have to use it.
The best thing about digital consoles, for me, is the speed that I can get set up and ready to go especially with a digital snake.
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There is no obligation to do things differently just because you're on a digital mixer instead of a steam-powered analog mixer. Don't bother with compressors or gates (especially for bluegrass).
As for monitors, how freakin' loud do they have to be for the genre? I do bluegrass gigs where the artists have us remove the monitors from the performance area. YMMV and all that, but unless you've got some really stupid-wacky gain things happening, bad microphone choices/placement or really shitty monitors these things shouldn't be a major issue*. Is there a trend in bluegrass to be as loud as a heavy metal band? Not joking here - a couple years ago I had a Band Engineer (BE for short) who seemed to delight in making his act 12 dB louder than everyone else, and it became my job to deflect the unhappy ticket buyer's complaints. :(
* shouldn't be a major issue for folks with experience. You're new, you get to make some mistakes first. ;)
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First things first
What instruments are involved
How many vocal mics?
How many monitors.
Ha! Sorry should have mentioned that!
3 instruments: Electric upright bass which runs DI from his stage amp, Taylor 814 DI through fishman aura imager, and Grady F5 mandolin currently mic'ed with SM 57 but I am going to have a fishman M300 (piezo-ceramic) installed by the mandolin maker and I think i'm still going to want to send a stage mic to the FOH and use the m300 for monitor mix to help avoid feedback. Also i'll be using the Radial tonebonez DI when i get the m300 installed on the mando.
3 vocal mics (2 OM2s and an SM58) and i'm looking to replace all of these for condenser vocal mics soon (been looking at beta 87a, and sennheiser e865 so far...)
Right now we run 2 monitors (on a QSC 1450) for 3 people, the monitors are JBL JRX112s, but i'm looking to pick up a third for bigger stages when necessary. I've really been quite happy with the sound of these monitors when we ran the mackie cfx16 and things were less complicated as far as eq'ing goes. I know they will still sound good if i can get these monitors dialed in (which also relies on me dialing in the eq settings for each instrument and vocal channel which i am not 100% confident in yet with the presonus)
also we run 2 JBL JRX115s for mains (on a PV2400), and the bigger clubs i recently borrowed a yamaha sub from a friend that I run on a bridged PV900 x-over at 125 per the amp i believe.
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Ha! Sorry should have mentioned that!
3 instruments: Electric upright bass which runs DI from his stage amp, Taylor 814 DI through fishman aura imager, and Grady F5 mandolin currently mic'ed with SM 57 but I am going to have a fishman M300 (piezo-ceramic) installed by the mandolin maker and I think i'm still going to want to send a stage mic to the FOH and use the m300 for monitor mix to help avoid feedback. Also i'll be using the Radial tonebonez DI when i get the m300 installed on the mando.
3 vocal mics (2 OM2s and an SM58) and i'm looking to replace all of these for condenser vocal mics soon (been looking at beta 87a, and sennheiser e865 so far...)
Right now we run 2 monitors (on a QSC 1450) for 3 people, the monitors are JBL JRX112s, but i'm looking to pick up a third for bigger stages when necessary. I've really been quite happy with the sound of these monitors when we ran the mackie cfx16 and things were less complicated as far as eq'ing goes. I know they will still sound good if i can get these monitors dialed in (which also relies on me dialing in the eq settings for each instrument and vocal channel which i am not 100% confident in yet with the presonus)
also we run 2 JBL JRX115s for mains (on a PV2400), and the bigger clubs i recently borrowed a yamaha sub from a friend that I run on a bridged PV900 x-over at 125 per the amp i believe.
So bass, mando and guitar? Is this a "power-grass" band? Everything at 180 BPM, everything amplified on stage to rock and roll levels?
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It's cliche, but keep it simple.
I've been using a digital console for three years now and I use gates on three channels and compressors on two channels. Just because you have all the stuff that comes with digital you don't have to use it.
hence why i said "less is more"... this applies to just about every aspect of life. I'm not looking to use all that crap all the time... but i'd like to know why it's there and understand the mechanics of these tools. what's the point of having a tool if you don't know how to use it?!? :)
So bass, mando and guitar? Is this a "power-grass" band? Everything at 180 BPM, everything amplified on stage to rock and roll levels?
no not everything is 180 BPM, but we are not what most people think of "bluegrass" aka gospel and the like. We are more of a newgrass style group, but we influence from all kinds of stuff, rock, gypsy, folk, blues, and what not. Yes everything is amplified on stage, yes i like to hear what I am doing on stage and so do the boys.
There is no obligation to do things differently just because you're on a digital mixer instead of a steam-powered analog mixer.
this is true, however i am dealing with a new eq system on this board and i'm trying to understand how to use it properly, and things do not sound the same right out of the gate when going from mackie to presonus.
As for monitors, how freakin' loud do they have to be for the genre? I do bluegrass gigs where the artists have us remove the monitors from the performance area.
the monitors need to be loud enough and not feeding back, period. every room is different and requires different adjustments. sure maybe that one gig the volume of the mains was good enough they could hear and didnt need monitors. I acutally like to hear clearly what i am doing on stage because i am not a shy musician like many in the business, and if i can't hear myself or the person i'm singing harmony with... what good do the monitors do for me?? none... yes i understand that mics need certain placements and there are certain mics for certain jobs.
* shouldn't be a major issue for folks with experience. You're new, you get to make some mistakes first. ;)
i'm not trying to be defensive or rub anyone the wrong way, but Tim, you come off as a know it all and yes, i know you have more experience than me with this... but maybe you could try and not appear to be talking down to me because you know more about something than i do. I know im going to and am making mistakes now... this is why i am here...
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Blake...
Forget all the outboard apps and stuff. Just use the FW connection to a MacBook and take advantage of the onboard SMAART feature. It's one feature that makes the SLive really usable.
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hence why i said "less is more"... this applies to just about every aspect of life. I'm not looking to use all that crap all the time... but i'd like to know why it's there and understand the mechanics of these tools. what's the point of having a tool if you don't know how to use it?!? :)
no not everything is 180 BPM, but we are not what most people think of "bluegrass" aka gospel and the like. We are more of a newgrass style group, but we influence from all kinds of stuff, rock, gypsy, folk, blues, and what not. Yes everything is amplified on stage, yes i like to hear what I am doing on stage and so do the boys.
this is true, however i am dealing with a new eq system on this board and i'm trying to understand how to use it properly, and things do not sound the same right out of the gate when going from mackie to presonus.
the monitors need to be loud enough and not feeding back, period. every room is different and requires different adjustments. sure maybe that one gig the volume of the mains was good enough they could hear and didnt need monitors. I acutally like to hear clearly what i am doing on stage because i am not a shy musician like many in the business, and if i can't hear myself or the person i'm singing harmony with... what good do the monitors do for me?? none... yes i understand that mics need certain placements and there are certain mics for certain jobs.
i'm not trying to be defensive or rub anyone the wrong way, but Tim, you come off as a know it all and yes, i know you have more experience than me with this... but maybe you could try and not appear to be talking down to me because you know more about something than i do. I know im going to and am making mistakes now... this is why i am here...
Blake - for "sound people" new to the arena (such as yourself), I usually suggest posting your location. By doing this, perhaps someone on the forum is near you and can stop by to help you with your system. It's exponentially easier to learn about about that stuff (gates, compressors, limiters, etc...) by watching someone setup it up while you can ask questions.
The Presonus board does a lot, and sometimes the "learning" can get lost in all the ideas/suggestions that are posted here. Many of us have our own ways of setting things up (but in the end, the results are almost identical). What you may want to try, is to ask one a question a week; give us time to answer you and ask you other questions. Without having all the information, it's hard to develop a correct solution.
Try not to take anything personal on the board (unless the person responding to you knows you personally!!). There's a lot of talent on the board and each of us have a different way of communicating our knowledge.
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hence why i said "less is more"... this applies to just about every aspect of life. I'm not looking to use all that crap all the time... but i'd like to know why it's there and understand the mechanics of these tools. what's the point of having a tool if you don't know how to use it?!? :)
no not everything is 180 BPM, but we are not what most people think of "bluegrass" aka gospel and the like. We are more of a newgrass style group, but we influence from all kinds of stuff, rock, gypsy, folk, blues, and what not. Yes everything is amplified on stage, yes i like to hear what I am doing on stage and so do the boys.
this is true, however i am dealing with a new eq system on this board and i'm trying to understand how to use it properly, and things do not sound the same right out of the gate when going from mackie to presonus.
the monitors need to be loud enough and not feeding back, period. every room is different and requires different adjustments. sure maybe that one gig the volume of the mains was good enough they could hear and didnt need monitors. I acutally like to hear clearly what i am doing on stage because i am not a shy musician like many in the business, and if i can't hear myself or the person i'm singing harmony with... what good do the monitors do for me?? none... yes i understand that mics need certain placements and there are certain mics for certain jobs.
i'm not trying to be defensive or rub anyone the wrong way, but Tim, you come off as a know it all and yes, i know you have more experience than me with this... but maybe you could try and not appear to be talking down to me because you know more about something than i do. I know im going to and am making mistakes now... this is why i am here...
I'm trying to suss out your experience level and what conditions you're up against. Mostly it looks like inexperience, and that's why I said "you get to make mistakes." Mistakes are how we learn, by fixing/correcting whatever made the bad noise or didn't make enough good noise.
I work with an act that is labeled "bluegrass" but could just as easily be a speed metal act if you changed 2 instruments... with all the SPL issues that come with a metal act. I've worked with numerous acts that were so quiet that getting enough level in the house before feedback was the challenge. That's a pretty broad spectrum, and figuring out where your band sits in that spectrum is useful to the rest of us in helping find some solutions with you.
Based on your reply I take it you perform in the band. That presents operational issues for you and is another reason I suggest that you not jump in with compressors and gates right away. As to the difference in sound between your old and new mixers, it's simple - they *are* different. Despite science and precision technology, every manufacturer implements EQ differently. Some of the differences aren't so big and others far from subtle; the change from Mackie to Presonus probably qualifies as the latter. There's no magic bullet or secret sauce, you'll need to start from scratch. This is an issue band engineers have to face when they don't carry a mixer with them - on a different desk every day, they're expected to make each performance sound as much alike as possible. With any luck, you'll only have to do this once and then brush it up from time to time.
I already have some ideas of what *might* be happening, but until we learn more I'll refrain from posting my speculation. And yeah, I've been doing this for 30 years, over 20 of that mixing bluegrass for 75 folks or 5,000 folks... I've got a head start on you and much of what I do instinctively is not stuff you would know to do. I'm not trying to be condescending but perhaps overestimated your experience level.
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I work with an act that is labeled "bluegrass" but could just as easily be a speed metal act if you changed 2 instruments...
Have you see Hayseed Dixie? They could just about be speed metal without changing any instruments! (I did monitors for them a few years ago).
Steve.
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Blake - for "sound people" new to the arena (such as yourself), I usually suggest posting your location. By doing this, perhaps someone on the forum is near you and can stop by to help you with your system. It's exponentially easier to learn about about that stuff (gates, compressors, limiters, etc...) by watching someone setup it up while you can ask questions.
We do about 100+ shows a year in the MI/IN/OH area
So this narrows it down a bit... :)
But really, Blake, +2 to what everyone is saying-- keep it simple. Focus on getting your basic mix on the Presonus, and then start playing with the outboard. Dick and Tim are both highly respected on here; take their advice to heart.
- The Presonus *will* sound different - it's now a matter of adjusting that sound to your taste. You're getting a brand new board with current tech on it, and replacing one that's probably 10+ years old, and from a different manufacturer.
- Try connecting it up in your practice space, let the band rip, and then change something. EQ, add a compressor, whatever. Record. Playback, listen. As a band. What do you like, not like? As Tim says, experience is something you will get, and mistakes will be made-- and gear these days is a lot more forgiving. He'll tell you stories about taking out rigs, driving them as hard as possible til shit breaks, having to pay to fix it, and then changing practices based on what caused it to break!
Check back in with us and let us know what happens!
-Ray
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Thanks, Ray. If I know anything at all, it's because I've made the mistakes leading to knowledge. I should know a lot by now...
To the OP:
System deployment and tuning have EVERYTHING to do with the efficacy of any EQ/tonal adjustments on the board. If the system is not in proper adjustment, then the results of such things as channel EQ will be all over the map...through no fault of the desk.
There's a whole lot in addition to which mixer is patched in. Excuse me while I exit the pulpit...
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So i have always been the sound guy for the band... no big deal...
until i decided to dump my mackie cfx16 and buy a presonus 16.4.2AI! Now that there is a lot more possible to do with this board... i'm kind of at a loss of what to do with it! All i know is less is more in terms of achieving good sound. I'm working on trying to not overmix my rig and I just need a better understanding of the mindset off a live sound engineer! We do about 100+ shows a year in the MI/IN/OH area, so becoming a serious sound man is very high on my priority list because my ears and hands are in control of what the people are hearing which to me is just as big a deal as playing and singing the right notes!
Now, with that little bit of background (and hopefully not boring any of you!) I need some direction on how to understand what this new soundboard is allowing me to do. At heart I am an analog guy, and anything digital mentioned to me i'll generally put my nose up in the air to it haha. That being said, I know that not all digital things are bad and after much consideration I decided to get the presonus because it is basically everything that i need as a sound man for the next couple years doing smaller gigs and running sound for the band myself. (was going to put together an analog rig but everything is in this one counsel and it just seemed like the way to go, plus a very good friend of ours who runs sound for a living recommended this board to me)
SO, here I am prosoundweb! I look forward to learning how to tackling this seemingly daunting task of being a great sound man haha and i know it wont be easy, but i have a good ear and i just need to be able to analyze in my brain what my ear is trying to tell me!
So far i have been working exclusively on monitor mixes and trying to understand feedback frequencies so we can have the stage loud enough so we can deliver a good show (cause if the band can't hear themselves or we are dealing with feedback, how can we even play a show worth listening to?) I downloaded a little feedback trainer app for my computer and I have been working with that... I also downloaded a frequency analyzer for my iphone so that I can quickly adjust frequencies i need to for now, but i'm hoping to rely on my ears a bit more for that later in my career.
Anyways thanks for reading my little (or large!) introduction of myself and i'll be looking to pick your brains a lot here in the near future!
Blake Short
www.thewhistlestoprevue.com
Going from analog to digital can be a bit of a challenge, but there are lots of resources available, like this forum. If you haven't already, you should go to YouTube and watch the many tutorials containing great ideas and tips for using the Presonus. As to the monitors, that board should have a 31-band EQ available in addition to the PEQ, so you have plenty of control in dialing in monitors. Same thing for the main outs, for adjusting for different venues.
You should be able to get your entire show set up, with your monitors rung out so they are reasonably loud with no feedback, and then 'save' your show as a baseline. Then, for every new venue, you can call up your saved show, and adjust as needed for that room. If you like, you can then save THAT show, so the next time you play there, you simply load that show and you are good to go. Doing this can save a lot of time if you rotate playing the same venues.
As others have posted, start with the basics, get your 'baseline' show established, and then going forward you can add any processing after that.
Have fun!
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Main differences, analog to digital:
1. "Virtual" cabling.
2. Meters in dBfs
3. select what channel/mix/send etc you want to work on.
Make sure the FAT channel knobs you're using are applied to the desired channel...
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I bought a Studiolive when they first came out, was my first adventure away from analogue. One important item I learned quickly when setting up the gain on the Studiolive is to keep the level between -15 and -10 when possible.
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I bought a Studiolive when they first came out, was my first adventure away from analogue. One important item I learned quickly when setting up the gain on the Studiolive is to keep the level between -15 and -10 when possible.
If it's metering in DBFS, more like -20.
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I'm trying to suss out your experience level and what conditions you're up against. Mostly it looks like inexperience, and that's why I said "you get to make mistakes." Mistakes are how we learn, by fixing/correcting whatever made the bad noise or didn't make enough good noise.
I work with an act that is labeled "bluegrass" but could just as easily be a speed metal act if you changed 2 instruments... with all the SPL issues that come with a metal act. I've worked with numerous acts that were so quiet that getting enough level in the house before feedback was the challenge. That's a pretty broad spectrum, and figuring out where your band sits in that spectrum is useful to the rest of us in helping find some solutions with you.
Based on your reply I take it you perform in the band. That presents operational issues for you and is another reason I suggest that you not jump in with compressors and gates right away. As to the difference in sound between your old and new mixers, it's simple - they *are* different. Despite science and precision technology, every manufacturer implements EQ differently. Some of the differences aren't so big and others far from subtle; the change from Mackie to Presonus probably qualifies as the latter. There's no magic bullet or secret sauce, you'll need to start from scratch. This is an issue band engineers have to face when they don't carry a mixer with them - on a different desk every day, they're expected to make each performance sound as much alike as possible. With any luck, you'll only have to do this once and then brush it up from time to time.
I already have some ideas of what *might* be happening, but until we learn more I'll refrain from posting my speculation. And yeah, I've been doing this for 30 years, over 20 of that mixing bluegrass for 75 folks or 5,000 folks... I've got a head start on you and much of what I do instinctively is not stuff you would know to do. I'm not trying to be condescending but perhaps overestimated your experience level.
Yes i perform in the band and yes it poses many operational issues!!!! I dont get to hear whats coming out of the mains! That always weighs on my mind during performance...
Ive always been the sound guy but that just meant turning a couple knobs on an outdated mixer haha. My knowledge of sound is not expansive, but ithis is why i am here! Need to know what these tools do and how to use them when the time arises!
Were in different types of rooms all the time, big and boomy, loud patrons, outside, small and confined, and rarely do i ever get the chance to have the room to the band for a soundcheck! The scene is changing all the time, which is why i liked the presonus's ability to save settings so i can come back to them later for that particular room.
As you all have stated ill just try and take it one question at a time and i need to do some reading on my own so ill be looking for aome tips on some good things to read that are at my current comprehension level haha. Thanks for all the responses to everyone and i know there are a lot of knowledgable people on here that could help me out a lot!
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If it's metering in DBFS, more like -20.
Yes, channel metering is in DBFS. I found -15 to be as hot as a channel should go on the SLive.
Note to the OP:
DBFS is "full scale", meaning that zero is as far as it goes. That would correspond to +16 on your analog DBVU meters. Note also that the sub-group and master metering is in DBVU just like your analog gear was. Having two different scales can be a bit to get used to.
You'll likely find the use of the FAT led's as meter bridge to be helpful running show. Being able to see per channel output levels at a glance is a good thing, especially when mixing from the stage. Once you get used to it you'll be able to balance a mix with your eyes.
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IMO
Have you looked at the QU16 or X32 producer? They offer way more and everything is recallable, it boggles my mind as to why the studiolive isn't fully recallable at this price point...
If you're still willing to go passive, the Yamaha club series will be an improvement to the JRX, otherwise active cabs might be a viable alternative if the budget is right.
Also, before going Beta87A, try the SM variant, I find it's more smooth and not sharp sounding at the HF.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Blake,
I agree with all that has been said, and welcome. I'm a keep it simple guy myself, and some of the guys here may even tell you I'm a simpleton, whatever that means.
I note what you said about mixing from the stage and not hearing FOH. I'll suggest that you might try placing the FOH cabinets behind you at practice some night. Try to put 10' between the mics and the cabinets and I think you may be very surprised at how much SPL you'll achieve, which in most cases will be more than you need for smaller venues of a few hundred people. You might even be able to do away with monitors. Anyway give a try some night at practice, and welcome aboard.
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Have you looked at the QU16 or X32 producer? They offer way more and everything is recallable, it boggles my mind as to why the studiolive isn't fully recallable at this price point...
If you're still willing to go passive, the Yamaha club series will be an improvement to the JRX, otherwise active cabs might be a viable alternative if the budget is right.
Thomas, pretty certain the OP already has both the board and the speakers involved, and is not looking to purchase new ones at this time.
-Ray
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IMO
Have you looked at the QU16 or X32 producer? They offer way more and everything is recallable, it boggles my mind as to why the studiolive isn't fully recallable at this price .
Thomas...
Why not? The OP already owns the board as you'd know if you paid full attention rather than parroting the popular choices.
Actually, the SLive has three features that actually matter to folks in his situation:
1. SMAART overlay for all GEQ's for real-time, pinpoint hot frequency identification. For the OP this is an absolutely brilliant feature as is...
2. Illuminated "meter bridge" feature for easily eyeballing all channel levels while mixing and playing.
3. Downward expansion to keep the mix clean...again important for the OP as he's using mics on vocals and acoustic instruments.
Neither of your recommendations has these particular features.
Additionally, since this is for a fixed ensemble there is really no need for motorized faders or recallable head amps.
You r suggested boards are good, but in this application the SLIve is clearly better. I say this having used all three consoles. My current desk is the Qu-16, but if I were in the OP's place I'd sure be missing the SLive 16:4:2.
Keep it real and read all the posts.
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Hey Blake, you said you tour through Michigan. I am based just outside of Detroit, and have spent several years running bluegrass sound from the stage (playing banjo w/ Lindsay Lou & the Flatbellys) using a Studiolive.
If you are ever in my area and you think I can be of assistance, feel free to give me a shout.
General advice:
- Train your bandmates to give you consistent signal every night (like if they use a preamp, use identical EQ and gain settings, etc). That way you don't have to re-tweak the FAT channel for every gig - eventually each FAT channel should not change much, if at all, after you have found settings for each instrument that you are happy with.
- If every soloist has a way to boost him/herself for solos, this helps a ton. Of course, everyone playing with dynamics helps even more!
- There is a Dave Rat video on Youtube that I thought was brilliant for "mixing from the stage," where he assigned all vocals to a stereo subgroup, and all instruments to a different stereo subgroup, and then compressed the instruments with a lower threshold than vocals. This way, when a song gets pretty raucous, you know that the vocals will float an extra 3db or so above the instruments. If you pan soloists, it can also have the effect of centering the lead soloist during his solo. Great "auto-mixing" trick.
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- There is a Dave Rat video on Youtube that I thought was brilliant for "mixing from the stage," where he assigned all vocals to a stereo subgroup, and all instruments to a different stereo subgroup, and then compressed the instruments with a lower threshold than vocals. This way, when a song gets pretty raucous, you know that the vocals will float an extra 3db or so above the instruments. If you pan soloists, it can also have the effect of centering the lead soloist during his solo. Great "auto-mixing" trick.
I think you're referring to his Mixing Strategy video. I don't think it was for mixing from stage but it is a very interesting video which we should all watch.
Basically everything is put into sub groups and every sub group has a compressor with a a 3:1 ratio and a 0dB threshold except vocals which have a +3dB threshold.
Then a VCA is assigned to every channel and a second VCA is assigned to every sub group. Pushing up the first VCA pushes everything into compression (vocals later than everything else) and the second VCA controls the overall level.
The whole mix is controlled from a compressed to dynamic by balancing the two VCA faders.
Probably a bit too complex for a three piece bluregrass band though! I agree with the others about keeping it simple.
I would start with nothing in the monitors and only add in what you are actually missing.
Steve.
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I think you're referring to his Mixing Strategy video. I don't think it was for mixing from stage but it is a very interesting video which we should all watch.
Basically everything is put into sub groups and every sub group has a compressor with a a 3:1 ratio and a 0dB threshold except vocals which have a +3dB threshold.
Then a VCA is assigned to every channel and a second VCA is assigned to every sub group. Pushing up the first VCA pushes everything into compression (vocals later than everything else) and the second VCA controls the overall level.
The whole mix is controlled from a compressed to dynamic by balancing the two VCA faders.
Probably a bit too complex for a three piece bluregrass band though! I agree with the others about keeping it simple.
I would start with nothing in the monitors and only add in what you are actually missing.
Steve.
Yes, that's the one!
It is not presented as a "mixing from the stage" video, but I thought that the technique is very useful for that purpose, since it has the effect of hands-free mixing. Either way, I thought it was a pretty brilliant concept.
And you are correct, his second part about balancing the compressed group (for fast hard-hitting songs) vs. uncompressed (for ballads) is a bit beyond the scope of the OP's situation (and indeed, beyond the capability of the Studiolive).
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I do sound now and then for a bluegrass-ish style band.
Standup bass
Acoustic guitar
Banjo
Violin
Electric guitar
Drums
4 vocal mics
I DI the bass, and the rest of the instruments use Fishman acoustic amps. They sound great and have a built in balanced line out. So while at first glance you would think it could quickly degenerate into a feedback sh*tshow, it's actually a really nice setup to work with. The Fishman amps tilt back like a monitor so the signal is coming out towards the players heads (and ears) so they don't bed crazy amounts of instruments in the monitor.
Here's a quick video, mixed remotely with a StudioLive24.4.2 you can hear all the instruments nicely in the mix, the singer on the left is a bit of a mumbler but that's how he is. Just showing how nicely the Fishman amps work for getting a clean useable signal to the board vs mic'ing all the instruments...
http://youtu.be/Z_grgG86aso
Buy yourself a MacBook Pro or Minimac (power PC, OSX 10.6.X or better) and really have some fun recording the gigs etc etc. As others have said, you will be able to save different scenes. I have scenes for my band in different rooms, and for different bands I've already provided sound for. When they come back, I recall the scene and everything is set up the same as the last time they were three. Get my levels (-15) and we are pretty close to dialed in.
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I did a gig with several members of the Bluegrass Hall of Fame last weekend. They requested SM58s for vocals, and DI for the bass, and SM57s for the instrument mics (so much for that pile of expensive condenser mics I brought with me). Keep it simple, get your gain staging right, build a basic mix where everything can be heard, and enjoy the show. If you have any problem frequencies, the old stand by of "bump to identify and cut to tame" works just as well in the digital world as it does in the analog one. The only "outboard" that I used was some extremely mild use of expanders on the vocal channels. Given a bit of time and experience, you'll be able to identify problem frequencies quickly.
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Seriously, thank you all for your responses. :D
I have ordered the sound reinforcement guide as many had mentioned in another post i had put up with the question of what to get for reading material, so that's on the way. I also have plans to get the macbook pro for the rig as soon as i can afford it... like after I pay off this freaking board.
So to start off with some basic stuff and i'm sure everyone has their own way of doing this so.... when ringing out the room for the first time am i correct in thinking this should be done with a vocal mic on a channel that has all settings, as far as EQ goes, at unity (or just basically not selected "on" with the presonus? Then I proceed to do the 31 band graph with the "bump" and "cut" method that scott proposed above this? Also what is a good db range that i should be cutting at first... and i've heard when tuning the 31 band that i should cut/boost no more than 5db from an individual band while doing this.
Also while im on the subject... When i am ringing out my monitors i saw a guy doing this on youtube in a presonus video and it has kind of been working for me (worked really great at the last show now that i think i'm getting the hang of it a bit) What he does is turn up a mic channel to the monitor like 3/4 of its volume (with the aux master turned down), and then he turns up the aux channel master for that monitor up until feedback occurs and cuts that freq... but he's doing it with the fat channel rather than the 31 band? So i've been doing some cuts with the fat channel because of the high-Q button which he states in the video creates a good notch at that particular frequency...
Should i just be sticking with the 31 band for each aux monitor instead of the fat channel? I'm going to be cleaning out my garage this weekend inbetween gigs and preparing to set up the rig during the week in there to play around and get more comfortable on the new presonus.
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I personally don't use the up then down method for ringing out. I increase the gain of the whole system up to feedback, then eliminate the feedback by dropping the appropriate graphic control. I then up the gain a bit more to find the next frequency - repeat three or four times.
This way, you will find out if a frequency which you have already cut requires any more cut as it will feedback again at a higher gain.
Ringing out is actually much easier to do than describe. Try it out in an empty room and you will soon get the hang of it.
Steve.
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I personally don't use the up then down method for ringing out. I increase the gain of the whole system up to feedback, then eliminate the feedback by dropping the appropriate graphic control. I then up the gain a bit more to find the next frequency - repeat three or four times.
This way, you will find out if a frequency which you have already cut requires any more cut as it will feedback again at a higher gain.
Ringing out is actually much easier to do than describe. Try it out in an empty room and you will soon get the hang of it.
Steve.
Glad it works for you that way, but it does require some familiarity with relating sound to faders/bands whereas using the boost to identify/cut to taste is infinitely easier for someone new to the process as they've already got there mitts on the proper slider to deal with the "problem". So I will continue to recommend the "boost/cut" method as the easiest and most practical procedure.
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Glad it works for you that way, but it does require some familiarity with relating sound to faders/bands whereas using the boost to identify/cut to taste is infinitely easier for someone new to the process as they've already got there mitts on the proper slider to deal with the "problem". So I will continue to recommend the "boost/cut" method as the easiest and most practical procedure.
I think you are right. Whilst I don't have perfect pitch, as a musician, I'm quite good at relating the frequencies I hear to where they are on the graphic and can usually get very close.
You are absolutely right though - if you find it difficult relating sound to the numbers, the up/down method could be more suitable.
I have only ever used the method I outlined after being shown how to do it by a Peavey engineer in the 1980s. I have no idea what we did before then.
Being shown how to ring out a system was quite a revelation at the time. If I was a cartoon, a light bulb would have lit up above my head!
Steve.
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Yeah i'm good at getting close as well. also i have matched pitches on my instrument with feedback frequencies so i know where they are at... which helps a lot! especially the mandolin cause i can get up in the lower 2k range. I've also related that anything 4k and over is really unpleasant to the ears which helps me relate where they are at.
Would the boost/cut method work on my monitor mix as well or should i keep increasing the aux master until feedback starts and then cut that freq? increasing gain seems to be starting to work for me.
also, should i be trying to smooth out the 31 band around spots that i have made a strong cut of 5db or so, or just leave that single cut alone and roll with it.
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Yeah i'm good at getting close as well. also i have matched pitches on my instrument with feedback frequencies so i know where they are at... which helps a lot! especially the mandolin cause i can get up in the lower 2k range. I've also related that anything 4k and over is really unpleasant to the ears which helps me relate where they are at.
Would the boost/cut method work on my monitor mix as well or should i keep increasing the aux master until feedback starts and then cut that freq? increasing gain seems to be starting to work for me.
also, should i be trying to smooth out the 31 band around spots that i have made a strong cut of 5db or so, or just leave that single cut alone and roll with it.
Yes, the method will work for any mix, main or monitor.
You can "smooth out" if you wish, but remember that GEQ filters are wide enough to be fairly smooth as is. What you can do, for instance, is look for octaves that are cut. You can go back and readjust your initial cuts to restore a bit in the lower octave as removing energy in the octave(s) above will take a bit of pressure off of the lower octave, octaves being simply a doubling of frequency.
As I said, you'll gain some insight in how the different relationships work together with this method. you'll encounter various results/phenomena and with a little thought and experimentation see (and hear) how you can make the system work for you.
Good luck and have fun.
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Yes, the method will work for any mix, main or monitor.
You can "smooth out" if you wish, but remember that GEQ filters are wide enough to be fairly smooth as is. What you can do, for instance, is look for octaves that are cut. You can go back and readjust your initial cuts to restore a bit in the lower octave as removing energy in the octave(s) above will take a bit of pressure off of the lower octave, octaves being simply a doubling of frequency.
As I said, you'll gain some insight in how the different relationships work together with this method. you'll encounter various results/phenomena and with a little thought and experimentation see (and hear) how you can make the system work for you.
Good luck and have fun.
yeah i had noticed that relationship and i remember reading something about the octaves building up from a lower frequency and causing the higher frequency to ring because of that... so this is making sense.