ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: Gene Flynn on March 02, 2014, 02:30:05 PM
-
I currently have 4 TH 115s with 2 more on the way. I am running each pair with Crown XTI 6002. I am running them in strereo. The amps are rated at 2100W @ 4o in full, so plenty of power there. I tried to run them mono from a Behringer CX 2310 and didnt like the sound.. The amp has 3 settings for input mode 1- stereo, 2- Sum (chan1+chan2)- both chan 1and 2 input signals are summed and led to both outs which leads to a 6 dB level boost, 3- Input Y- chan 1 input signal is sent to chan 1and chan2 output. Chan 2 input signl is ignored.
For the mono out I used the Y and left in stereo. I can not daisy chain them due to the 4o load.
I have no idea what the Sum would do?
It sounded better running both channels in stereo, but thats really not the way they should be run- right??
I Just want to get the most out of these subs.. Next step would be to bridge mono them- BUT I would need 6 amps and thats a bit costly...
Any help is appreciated..
Thanks
-
I currently have 4 TH 115s with 2 more on the way. I am running each pair with Crown XTI 6002. I am running them in strereo. The amps are rated at 2100W @ 4o in full, so plenty of power there. I tried to run them mono from a Behringer CX 2310 and didnt like the sound.. The amp has 3 settings for input mode 1- stereo, 2- Sum (chan1+chan2)- both chan 1and 2 input signals are summed and led to both outs which leads to a 6 dB level boost, 3- Input Y- chan 1 input signal is sent to chan 1and chan2 output. Chan 2 input signl is ignored.
For the mono out I used the Y and left in stereo. I can not daisy chain them due to the 4o load.
I have no idea what the Sum would do?
It sounded better running both channels in stereo, but thats really not the way they should be run- right??
I Just want to get the most out of these subs.. Next step would be to bridge mono them- BUT I would need 6 amps and thats a bit costly...
Any help is appreciated..
Thanks
I would 'assume" the sum is the bridge mode-but not sure.
I would simply Y the inputs and run a single cabinet per channel.
I you use the bridge mode (sum?) and you do not change the wiring of how the speakers hook to the amp-channel 2 will cancel channel one.
The 6dB boost comes from doubling the voltage capability of the amplifier. But it does at the "price" of not being to drive as low of an impedance.
I try not to bridge if I don't have to.
You should be able to Y the signal to at least 10 amp channels with no issue (maybe more).
The Y position should be the same as if you took a physical Y cable and hooked to both inputs while the amp is in stereo mode.
You should not think of the amp as "stereo" but rather as 2 channels that you are trying to send the same signal to.
-
Ivan, just so I have this right;
For the Y set up= So just one interconnect from my mixer Chan 1 to the amp chan 1, (leaving the cables to subs in both channels= "single cabinet per channel") then just link the amps?? Sorry I am a visual person, I had to draw it out... ;D
Thanks
I would 'assume" the sum is the bridge mode-but not sure.
I would simply Y the inputs and run a single cabinet per channel.
I you use the bridge mode (sum?) and you do not change the wiring of how the speakers hook to the amp-channel 2 will cancel channel one.
The 6dB boost comes from doubling the voltage capability of the amplifier. But it does at the "price" of not being to drive as low of an impedance.
I try not to bridge if I don't have to.
You should be able to Y the signal to at least 10 amp channels with no issue (maybe more).
The Y position should be the same as if you took a physical Y cable and hooked to both inputs while the amp is in stereo mode.
You should not think of the amp as "stereo" but rather as 2 channels that you are trying to send the same signal to.
-
I tried to run them mono from a Behringer CX 2310 and didn't like the sound..
How did you have the crossover configured?
What didn't you like about the sound?
The amp has 3 settings for input mode 1- stereo, 2- Sum 3- Input Y.
I have no idea what the Sum would do?
It would be the same as Sum with the CX2310.
It sounded better running both channels in stereo,
It could simply be that the source material you are using has stereo processing(effects) in the bass/sub region and it partially cancels when summed to mono. There is nothing wring with feeding subs a "stereo" signal, if it sounds better to you that's all that matters.
-
Hi Gene-
Your understanding of "Y" is correct. It's like a physical Y cable that connects both amp inputs to a single source cable. "SUM" mixes the signals from both inputs and sends the result to both sides of the amp, where you can maintain separate level control, EQ, delay and other processing. Bridge mode operates in the customary manner, inverting the polarity of one amp channel and having the output on the positive terminals from each amp channel. Paul's comment about possible source material idiosyncrasies should be explored.
@ Ivan, no, SUM is not Bridge. See above.
-
How did you have the crossover configured?
What didn't you like about the sound?
It would be the same as Sum with the CX2310.
It could simply be that the source material you are using has stereo processing(effects) in the bass/sub region and it partially cancels when summed to mono. There is nothing wring with feeding subs a "stereo" signal, if it sounds better to you that's all that matters.
Paul, I have the internal crossovers set in the amp via computer at 30 and 105. The crossover on the mono out 2310 I just put all the way up to i think at 240 figuring the amp xover would take over and it wouldnt play high than 105.
With all gain setting the same as the stereo set up- I didnt hardly have any sub response, very shallow??
Im just always looking for the best possible way to set up to get everything out of the subs...
Is it true though set up in stereo that on side will be playing less dB then the other?
-
@ Ivan, no, SUM is not Bridge. See above.
Thanks for the clarification.
A question can you "sum" the 2 inputs and then Y them to both outputs?
-
With all gain setting the same as the stereo set up- I didnt hardly have any sub response, very shallow??
Im just always looking for the best possible way to set up to get everything out of the subs...
Is it true though set up in stereo that on side will be playing less dB then the other?
If that is the case I suspect something is out of polarity in the system. It could be a speaker cable-a mic cable etc.
The only reason one side would be quieter than the other in stereo would be if the bass signal was panned more to one channel than the other.
But in most cases the bass is mono so they should be the same. Unless something is wrong-bad cable etc.
-
If that is the case I suspect something is out of polarity in the system. It could be a speaker cable-a mic cable etc.
The only reason one side would be quieter than the other in stereo would be if the bass signal was panned more to one channel than the other.
But in most cases the bass is mono so they should be the same. Unless something is wrong-bad cable etc.
OK, so having said that about stereo, what would be the benefit of using the Y?
Thanks
-
OK, so having said that about stereo, what would be the benefit of using the Y?
Thanks
So that you can drive both channels with a single input.
That is the case with a lot of amps-but there those that have a switch or setting to take a single input (usually A or 1) and drive both channels.
-
So that you can drive both channels with a single input.
That is the case with a lot of amps-but there those that have a switch or setting to take a single input (usually A or 1) and drive both channels.
Technically speaking is one more beneficial then the other (stereo vs Y), or do you go by which one sounds better?
-
Thanks for the clarification.
A question can you "sum" the 2 inputs and then Y them to both outputs?
That is inherently the way it works. In SUM mode, the signals from both inputs are mixed to a common, mono signal and sent to both amp channels. The loudspeaker processing for each channel is independently available.
-
Technically speaking is one more beneficial then the other (stereo vs Y), or do you go by which one sounds better?
If you have true stereo bass, then stereo would be better.
A Y is a single signal.
It depends on how you define "Stereo" and "Y". Stereo would be like the left kick in the left channel and the right kick in the right channel.
A mono system would be both kicks in both channels.
All a Y does is allow you to drive multiple channels with a single signal.
Of course you could use both. Lets say you have 2 channels for the left subs and 2 for the right subs.
You would Y each of the right and left amplifiers to drive the subs on each side-and then drive each of the "Ys" with the right and left signals.
It is not a matter of "better", but better for a particular situation/application.
Different gear will require different approaches/cabling.
-
Technically speaking is one more beneficial then the other (stereo vs Y), or do you go by which one sounds better?
As said above, typically a mono send to subs is fine-unless of course there is a stereo bass input (which isn't super common unless maybe the bassist has a stereo delay pedal?).
The benefit of running the amps in Y mode would be to run a single mono send off your board to the first amp set in Y and then run a jumper from the channel 1 xlr out to your second amp which would also be set in Y mode.
You can then run the nl4 outs to your subs in a couple different ways depending on what is most convenient for you. You could run a single cable from each output to each sub. Or if at least two of your subs will be set up near each other you could use a nl4 cable out of channel 1 out of the amp and run that to sub 1 and then make a jumper cable that pulls pin two off the nl4 of sub 1 and makes it pin 1 on the other end of the cable that would be plugged into sub 2. The xti amps can run both channels on a single nl4 using all +/- of the 2 channel capable cable. Make sense?
That way you only need to run a single nl4 for each pair of subs. No custom jumper would be necessary if the TH115 has a switch to take either input 1 or 2 off the nl4 but I don't know that it has this capability.
I hope that was clear enough. Let me know if I need to further explain myself
-
As said above, typically a mono send to subs is fine-unless of course there is a stereo bass input (which isn't super common unless maybe the bassist has a stereo delay pedal?).
The benefit of running the amps in Y mode would be to run a single mono send off your board to the first amp set in Y and then run a jumper from the channel 1 xlr out to your second amp which would also be set in Y mode.
You can then run the nl4 outs to your subs in a couple different ways depending on what is most convenient for you. You could run a single cable from each output to each sub. Or if at least two of your subs will be set up near each other you could use a nl4 cable out of channel 1 out of the amp and run that to sub 1 and then make a jumper cable that pulls pin two off the nl4 of sub 1 and makes it pin 1 on the other end of the cable that would be plugged into sub 2. The xti amps can run both channels on a single nl4 using all +/- of the 2 channel capable cable. Make sense?
That way you only need to run a single nl4 for each pair of subs. No custom jumper would be necessary if the TH115 has a switch to take either input 1 or 2 off the nl4 but I don't know that it has this capability.
I hope that was clear enough. Let me know if I need to further explain myself
Pretty sure i got it up to the single cable to sub deal.. The Danleys dont have a switch, but do have an out. And i do have 2 together on each side (soon to be 3 together on each side) so i could run one cable from amp to 2 subs with the nl4 connecting the 2. But wouldn't that drop the impedance?? They are 4o, so then wouldn't that make it a 2o load?
-
Pretty sure i got it up to the single cable to sub deal.. The Danleys dont have a switch, but do have an out. And i do have 2 together on each side (soon to be 3 together on each side) so i could run one cable from amp to 2 subs with the nl4 connecting the 2. But wouldn't that drop the impedance?? They are 4o, so then wouldn't that make it a 2o load?
A true nl4 has four wires inside. There are plenty of companies that sell them with just two conductors so you will want to check and verify that yours are indeed four conductor wire. Because the nl4 connector is a four conductor connector it means that the pin out is 1 +/- and 2+/- which equals a total of four connections. The xti amp is set up to be able to send the output from channel one on pin 1 +/- and the output from channel two on pin 2+/- with a single nl4 plugged into channel 1. It's two be four conductor wire to do this. Otherwise yes it will drop the impedance.
So the way you would then wire this would be to have the nl4 run from the output of channel one on the amp and into the first sub. This would connect the first sub to the amp via pin 1+/-. You will then need to create a cable (or you may already have some nl2 to make this) with two conductor cable. When I say nl2 I am referring to the same nl4 plug but instead of there being four wire connections to the plug end there are only two. In order to not drop the impedance on sub two and provide it with the channel two power from the amp we will need to convert pin 2 to be pin 1 where it connects to the second sub.
Take the nl2 cable and connect the hot and negative to the 2+/- on one end up leave the other end connected to the 1+/-. You will them connect the end with the pin 2 connection into the thru on sub 1. This will take the passed through signal of channel 2 from the amp out of sub 1 and then send it into sub two. You will want to label which end has the pin 2+/- on it so you don't forget.
Hope that made more sense. If you are going to be getting two more then you may want to just wire it for an nl8 and a breakout box.
What tops are you using and what amps?
-
Pretty sure i got it up to the single cable to sub deal.. The Danleys dont have a switch, but do have an out.
Here is a quick diagram I drew up that hopefully provides more clarity to what I am trying to explain.
-
A true nl4 has four wires inside. There are plenty of companies that sell them with just two conductors so you will want to check and verify that yours are indeed four conductor wire. Because the nl4 connector is a four conductor connector it means that the pin out is 1 +/- and 2+/- which equals a total of four connections. The xti amp is set up to be able to send the output from channel one on pin 1 +/- and the output from channel two on pin 2+/- with a single nl4 plugged into channel 1. It's two be four conductor wire to do this. Otherwise yes it will drop the impedance.
So the way you would then wire this would be to have the nl4 run from the output of channel one on the amp and into the first sub. This would connect the first sub to the amp via pin 1+/-. You will then need to create a cable (or you may already have some nl2 to make this) with two conductor cable. When I say nl2 I am referring to the same nl4 plug but instead of there being four wire connections to the plug end there are only two. In order to not drop the impedance on sub two and provide it with the channel two power from the amp we will need to convert pin 2 to be pin 1 where it connects to the second sub.
Take the nl2 cable and connect the hot and negative to the 2+/- on one end up leave the other end connected to the 1+/-. You will them connect the end with the pin 2 connection into the thru on sub 1. This will take the passed through signal of channel 2 from the amp out of sub 1 and then send it into sub two. You will want to label which end has the pin 2+/- on it so you don't forget.
Hope that made more sense. If you are going to be getting two more then you may want to just wire it for an nl8 and a breakout box.
What tops are you using and what amps?
Andrew thanks for the explanation, I understand it clearly.. But now I will have 3 per side and need an explanation on the nl8 and breakout box? I have 3 XTI 6002 to use. I just got the 3rd for the other 2 Danleys?!
I am using 2 pair of Klipsch LaScalas for tops run bridged mono with 2 Cerwin vega Cv 2800 (I have had these amps for a long time and they are work horses) Also 2 Crown XTI 2000 for 2 pair of Crites midhorn boxes and 1 for a pair of Crites tweet boxes. This is obvioulsy an installed system.. For my private Gym- yup overkill and I love it.. Im a drummer- hence the bottom end!! 8)
-
But now I will have 3 per side and need an explanation on the nl8 and breakout box? I have 3 XTI 6002 to use. I just got the 3rd for the other 2 Danleys?!
Here is the diagram for NL8 wiring. You could wire the amps to NL8 plugs on the back of the amp rack and then run an NL8 cable to a breakout box that would go to 3 or 4 NL4 plugs wired with only two conductors to each plug. Then run an NL4 or NL2 cable to each sub from each corresponding plug on the breakout box. Duplicate the box and setup for the other side.
Pin 4 +/- on the NL8 could be wired for a possible 4th sub a side if you plan to ever expand that much or you could just wire pins 1-3 and call it a day.
Since this is an install though you might want to just go the NL4 route and run the extra cable if you don't want to have to do all the NL8 conversions. If you ran two 4 conductor NL4 cables to each side and went with the previous diagram idea then you could just add another amp and make another jumper if you ever wanted to get a 4th pair of subs.
-
Since this is an install though you might want to just go the NL4 route and run the extra cable if you don't want to have to do all the NL8 conversions. If you ran two 4 conductor NL4 cables to each side and went with the previous diagram idea then you could just add another amp and make another jumper if you ever wanted to get a 4th pair of subs.
[/quote]
Wow, thats intense, but I get it.. Thanks so much for the detailed drawing!!! I think I will stay with the first plan and just use the other amp for the 3rd one coming..... And yes I will most likely add another pair in the future- ha ha...
Thanks again..
Just one question;
Will this affect the power from amp going into the subs from using the jumper?? Will it decrease the power is what im asking.. Thanks
-
Since this is an install though you might want to just go the NL4 route and run the extra cable if you don't want to have to do all the NL8 conversions. If you ran two 4 conductor NL4 cables to each side and went with the previous diagram idea then you could just add another amp and make another jumper if you ever wanted to get a 4th pair of subs.
Wow, thats intense, but I get it.. Thanks so much for the detailed drawing!!! I think I will stay with the first plan and just use the other amp for the 3rd one coming..... And yes I will most likely add another pair in the future- ha ha...
Thanks again..
Just one question;
Will this affect the power from amp going into the subs from using the jumper?? Will it decrease the power is what im asking.. Thanks
For an install I would do just that-keep it simple. Just once cable from each cabinet ot each channel of the sub amp.
In a portable situation there are other setups that might make more sense-but why confuse things since it will offer no advantage to the particular situation.
-
For an install I would do just that-keep it simple. Just once cable from each cabinet ot each channel of the sub amp.
In a portable situation there are other setups that might make more sense-but why confuse things since it will offer no advantage to the particular situation.
Seconded. But no you would not lose power as each channel from the amp is powering each sub.
-
Seconded. But no you would not lose power as each channel from the amp is powering each sub.
So I went in and changed the amp to Y and hooked it up as mentioned.. I left the gains the same, and I have to say- I am getting more out of them.. Maybe in my head but man they sound better then they did in "stereo"
Thanks a bunch guys!!!!!
-
So I went in and changed the amp to Y and hooked it up as mentioned.. I left the gains the same, and I have to say- I am getting more out of them.. Maybe in my head but man they sound better then they did in "stereo"
Thanks a bunch guys!!!!!
Also, try setting the subs up all together rather than "left-right". The L/R setup is suitable if you need to spread the low end over a wide area.
If possible, try them in a row end to end in front of the stage or dance floor or stack pairs end to end.
This couples them together and it makes a difference.
I have used 16 TH115s stacked in pairs and end to end in front of the stage.
Killer!
-
Also, try setting the subs up all together rather than "left-right". The L/R setup is suitable if you need to spread the low end over a wide area.
If possible, try them in a row end to end in front of the stage or dance floor or stack pairs end to end.
This couples them together and it makes a difference.
I have used 16 TH115s stacked in pairs and end to end in front of the stage.
Killer!
Keith, I only have a 20' wall for the speakers. I had the subs 4 in a row in the center, and now they are L/R 2 per side. I couldn't tell that much difference. Probably because of the 20' space. I am added 2 more and will do 3 per side.. At that point there will only be about 4' between the sides- ha ha...
Did you strap them together?? I was thinking of doing this!??