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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Phil Novick on March 30, 2014, 12:53:25 AM
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I have upgraded my system to a Presonus 24.4.2, with a driverack PA+. I am trying to establish my presets and starting points but I am a little lost. I tried joining the DBX forum but it merely kicks me out to the start over screen? Can anyone here help me please?
I have:
2 Yorkville LS1004 subs (dual 18 one on each side) with AP6040 Yorkville power amp powering the subs one to each side of the amp
4 EAW FR129z set up two per side with each side configured with the FR129z's on on top of the other inverted so the horns are together - with a Crest CA6 in bridge mode (1200 Watts) powering each side of the pair of EAW FR129z's in parallel
The speakers are in the presets and I found those but not the amps? Initial settings for the driverack would be very helpful . . . Thanks in advance . . .
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The DBX forum is very good, lots of knowledgable people, very quick response times from other users, just try, you'll see what I mean.
I would suggest you try to re-register from a different browser or another computer.
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Just go to the system set up wizard and start from there. You want a 2x4 set up(2 inputs and four outputs I.e a bi-amp setup). If it asks for the top speakers, select your speakers from the list or choose custom if they are not there, if it asks for the low speakers just do the same. If it asks for amps just choose custom or other. Avoid the auto tune feature and feedback suppression setup. Disable all the limiters and subharmonic synthesizers. Connect the hi output to the crest ca amps and the low out on the yorkville amp. Once the program is loaded, start by tweaking the crossover. Low output low pass filter should be around 90hz lr24, hi pass at about 35-40hz Bw 12. The high pass for the tops should be at around 100hz lr24 ( If your speakers were in the drive rack, these will be set up automatically) Now proceed to set the gain structure, by increasing the gain on your mixer to the threshold of clipping, then increase the low amp I till it begins to flicker the clip lights. Then increase the volume on the crest amps until you achieve a balance between the tops and bass. You can now back off a little on the mixer gain. Feel free to tweek the eq to your taste!
That should be a starting point
Conrad
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I have upgraded my system to a Presonus 24.4.2, with a driverack PA+. I am trying to establish my presets and starting points but I am a little lost. I tried joining the DBX forum but it merely kicks me out to the start over screen? Can anyone here help me please?
I have:
2 Yorkville LS1004 subs (dual 18 one on each side) with AP6040 Yorkville power amp powering the subs one to each side of the amp
4 EAW FR129z set up two per side with each side configured with the FR129z's on on top of the other inverted so the horns are together - with a Crest CA6 in bridge mode (1200 Watts) powering each side of the pair of EAW FR129z's in parallel
The speakers are in the presets and I found those but not the amps? Initial settings for the driverack would be very helpful . . . Thanks in advance . . .
Hi Phil-
I started a big, long and highly technical reply last night after a gig. This morning I went to edit it and POOF, my browser ate it.
If you're talking about using the preset information in the unit, just pick amps that have about the same output (400w/8 ohm stereo) and input sensitivity (CA6 is 0.775v for full output, or X68 voltage gain). You'll have to do your own homework to find them, but I'd bet there is a Crown amp or 2 that is similar. Don't get hung up over 50w differences, that's less than 1dB.
The other thing is that running the CA6 in bridged mono is that you pick up 6dB of gain by bridging and this must be dealt with or the presets will have the tops louder than the subs. Bridging effectively makes the input sensitivity about 0.20v for full output. That needs to be compensated for. I'd turn down the input level controls on the amps by 6dB (looks like 12 o'clock, or straight up on the knobs) and put some black gaffer tape over the controls. There are internal jumpers on the input circuit boards to change input sensitivity (Crest calls what you need "Option 2), but that modification requires a trip to Crest-authorized technician. They are not considered user-serviceable.
If your speakers are not in the wizard list, I'd start with Conrad's suggestions and play it by ear (not a pun).
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And also take a look at the band pass gain set up in the crossover. You could use these to compensate or reduce gain for either the tops or subs. I mostly leave the tops at 0db and bump up the subs about 4 db and then do the rest on the amplifier nobs. What ever you do don't allow the driverack to clip, either the inputs or outputs. Leave enough headroom on the driverack. It will sound nasty if you clip the driverack compared to clipping the amps.
Conrad
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thanks everyone, this is very helpful. I was using a DBX 233XL crossover before getting the driverack and that was easy to set up of course.
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Thanks everyone, this is very helpful. I was using a DBX 233XL crossover before getting the driverack and that was easy to set up of course.
Did you find yourself dialing back the EAW drive levels?
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Thanks everyone, this is very helpful. I was using a DBX 233XL crossover before getting the driverack and that was easy to set up of course.
Dont get hung up on the setup wizard. Since you are just going from an analog crossover to a dsp, start by duplicating your 233xl settings in the driverack crossover section and then tweak from there.
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Dont get hung up on the setup wizard. Since you are just going from an analog crossover to a dsp, start by duplicating your 233xl settings in the driverack crossover section and then tweak from there.
oh that's a good idea, thanks!
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Did you find yourself dialing back the EAW drive levels?
no I just got the EAWs as well ( I was using Yorkville TM352 for tops before with the DBX233XL)
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Dont get hung up on the setup wizard. Since you are just going from an analog crossover to a dsp, start by duplicating your 233xl settings in the driverack crossover section and then tweak from there.
Update: I set it up with the advice here, the Driverack is not completely intuitive. For example the lows allow me to choose bridged or normal but the top end doesn't? I couldn't get the low end to thump hardly at all to keep up with the tops - it was weak. I had to raise the low end EQ of the Presonus 24.4.2 to get the bass to respond (way up). I took the advice of programming in similar amps to mine given mine are not in the presets. That helped some. I did a test and put the DBX233XL back in to the system and that thumped like crazy which told me it is how I have the Drive rack set up. The one thing that made a big difference was going into the crossover and lowering the low end crossover down to 30 Hz (it was set higher - I assume I was only capturing the 80-100 hz range before I did that). I raised the crossover point to 100 on the subs and lowered it to 100 on the tops. I started to get a good response. Still not what I want, but I was able to back the low EQ back to flat response off the board for the most part. The difference between the 233Xl and the Driverack is noticeable to my ears as the Driverack is a much tighter on the bass and I do like that a lot. Running through the 233XL it more rumbles and the Driverack is tight, that I like. I still want to get the low end to produce more overall. Any suggestions, input sensitivity settings, levels, etc.???
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Looking at the speakers you have, the EAW have a -3 at 80hz and the subs have a -3 at 40hz so I would run the sub crossover 40hz high pass and 90hz low pass. Run the EAW channels 90hz high pass. Defeat all eq and start by balancing the sub vs main channels. Prob run the EAW at -6 to -9 output with the subs at 0 output to start then adjust as needed. EAW should have recommended dsp settings available for eq.
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Looking at the speakers you have, the EAW have a -3 at 80hz and the subs have a -3 at 40hz so I would run the sub crossover 40hz high pass and 90hz low pass. Run the EAW channels 90hz high pass. Defeat all eq and start by balancing the sub vs main channels. Prob run the EAW at -6 to -9 output with the subs at 0 output to start then adjust as needed. EAW should have recommended dsp settings available for eq.
Thanks! I ran the high pass at 30hz and the low pass at 100hz so I am close, and then I ran the tops at 100hz high pass. Then I went and read the DBX Gadget "Start Here" thread and the "setting the gain structure" and I followed that all the way through. That worked great! Then I redid the Driverack according to the quick start booklet and ran through all the screens using the RTA mic and pink noise and let the Driverack do its thing as it went through it level settings and adjustments to a flat EQ setting, and then I set the AFS filters. I just determined myself to trust the threads and the Driverack set up screens and IT WORKED!!! Funny how that is. Man does it sound great and much better than with the older DBX233XL now. The subs are tight and thumping, top end is clear as a bell. I went into all this upgrading with some skepticism, saying how much better can it sound with EAWs on top and the Driverack, and it is one of those times where the answer is, A LOT BETTER!!! And now I have the three YORKVILLE TM352's freed up to use as monitors which I believe will sound killer as well (we were using cheap TOA monitors before - now I am setting up the Yorkville TM352's and two Carvin 742's. And I just bought a Crest Prolite 3.0 to run two monitors as a test which I will hook up all the monitors tomorrow and see what I have. If the Prolite 3.0 works out well, I will replace the other two monitor amps with two more. I am replacing three older Crown Power Base amps that weight 35-40 pounds with the new 12 pound prolites. For now, the mains are KILLER. THANKS to everyone for your help here!!! I printed the whole thread and used it along side with the manuals and DBX Start here thread and I am cooking!
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Gald to hear you got it working. Like you said, there's a learning curve to navigating and understanding the screens, but once you've done it a few times the results speak for themselves.
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Gald to hear you got it working. Like you said, there's a learning curve to navigating and understanding the screens, but once you've done it a few times the results speak for themselves.
IMHO the "Wizard" is the worse feature on the unit. It exist purely for marketing. I bet most users have to go back into the unit and tweak things in most of the screens to get their system sounding correct.
If you can't navigate the screens and understand what you're doing and why you probably don't have the skills to do live sound work in the first place so why even have the set-up wizard? I run 5 different set-ups and having to go into the wizard initially just to tell it what my basic set up was 5 time and then bypass all the "auto" stuff is just a PITA. If you let the setup wizard do its thing and it sounds bad, how would someone know where the problem is? Going thru each screen in a methodical order allows you to save as you go, A/B changes, and hear the actual results of everything you're doing. And the unit's really not that hard to navigate once you've used it a few times.
I glad Phil you figured it out, and now you should have much better understanding of how it works.
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Phil - Now that you're familiar with the workings of the DRPA+, go back and do your config for a mono sub instead of stereo subs. Use the designated low output from the DRPA+ to feed both channels of your sub amp and let the tops deal with the stereo stuff.
Were you ever able to get your registration together on the dbx forums?
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IMHO the "Wizard" is the worse feature on the unit. It exist purely for marketing. I bet most users have to go back into the unit and tweak things in most of the screens to get their system sounding correct.
Exactly! I spent a fair amount of time hunched in front of the rack fiddling with buttons and knobs and consulting the manual every step of the way. After several false starts I bypassed the "wizard" and finally got it set up and had a better understanding of the device as well.
I'm glad to see they went with a more "user friendly" approach (at least for those of us who are tech-savvy) on the new PA2 to utilize a visual setup system on a smartphone or tablet. I'm interested to try it out first hand as we're going to be needing a second rack soon, and DSP to fill it out.
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Phil - Now that you're familiar with the workings of the DRPA+, go back and do your config for a mono sub instead of stereo subs. Use the designated low output from the DRPA+ to feed both channels of your sub amp and let the tops deal with the stereo stuff.
Were you ever able to get your registration together on the dbx forums?
That sounds interesting, setting up for mono subs, would I connect them in parallel and bridge the amp? or just say they are mono and leave them connected the same way?
Also, no I never was able to register to the DBX forum. I could register to the old forum but not the new one. Keeps kicking me out.
Additionally, I am an intuitive and love fiddling with things and not afraid of turning a dial, or making edits, etc. Always have been and have learned how to use so many things in life because of this. Yet it is a personality style seems most of us who are bantering out here have. I feel bad for those who don't have this approach, they are not wrong or bad, just different, but what a struggle it would be sticking to rote processes and having them not work and being afraid to tweak and fiddle with things. As Gadget stated on the DBX forum (I can read them), something like, "don't worry you cannot hurt it".
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That sounds interesting, setting up for mono subs, would I connect them in parallel and bridge the amp? or just say they are mono and leave them connected the same way?
Phil, it's not POWERING subs in mono, it's using the DRPA's summed mono output (vs stereo) as a single input source for your subs !! One LESS set of cables to run, which would both have been carrying the same signal [anyway] if set up correctly..
For a 3-way system that would become a 2 in:5 out config. On a 2-way that would be 2 in:3 out config. Will give you more consistent sub control.
Your sub amp(s) get one input signal source - be that a split signal to one or more amps running in dual-channel mode, or to one or more sub amps running bridged, or as input to one or more (daisy-chained) powered subs. You can daisy-chain or split the SINGLE SUB output from the DRPA to as many amps as you need to power your subs.
On mine, I run to first powered 18" sub, then daisy chain to second.
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That sounds interesting, setting up for mono subs, would I connect them in parallel and bridge the amp? or just say they are mono and leave them connected the same way?
Also, no I never was able to register to the DBX forum. I could register to the old forum but not the new one. Keeps kicking me out.
Additionally, I am an intuitive and love fiddling with things and not afraid of turning a dial, or making edits, etc. Always have been and have learned how to use so many things in life because of this. Yet it is a personality style seems most of us who are bantering out here have. I feel bad for those who don't have this approach, they are not wrong or bad, just different, but what a struggle it would be sticking to rote processes and having them not work and being afraid to tweak and fiddle with things. As Gadget stated on the DBX forum (I can read them), something like, "don't worry you cannot hurt it".
That's weird about the dbx forum. I don't visit it nearly as often as I once did but I've learned quite a bit from Gadget and others there.
Phil, it's not POWERING subs in mono, it's using the DRPA's summed mono output (vs stereo) as a single input source for your subs !! One LESS set of cables to run, which would both have been carrying the same signal [anyway] if set up correctly..
For a 3-way system that would become a 2 in:5 out config. On a 2-way that would be 2 in:3 out config. Will give you more consistent sub control.
Your sub amp(s) get one input signal source - be that a split signal to one or more amps running in dual-channel mode, or to one or more sub amps running bridged, or as input to one or more (daisy-chained) powered subs. You can daisy-chain or split the SINGLE SUB output from the DRPA to as many amps as you need to power your subs.
On mine, I run to first powered 18" sub, then daisy chain to second.
This is pretty much what I was going to reply as well except that the DRPA+ can't do 3-way stereo plus a sub (2 X 5). I don't think Steve was implying that it does but it might confusing to see that config mentioned in this conversation.
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This is pretty much what I was going to reply as well except that the DRPA+ can't do 3-way stereo plus a sub (2 X 5). I don't think Steve was implying that it does but it might confusing to see that config mentioned in this conversation.
Tom on my DRPA (not a +), 2x5 = 2-way stereo + sub that's L+R Highs OUT (2), L+R Mids OUT (2), SUB OUT (1).
My system is tri-amped :)
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Tom on my DRPA (not a +), 2x5 = 2-way stereo + sub that's L+R Highs OUT (2), L+R Mids OUT (2), SUB OUT (1).
My system is tri-amped :)
Well, duh. Can I blame this on lack of coffee? No wait, it was WAY too late in the day to pull that one off... ???
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Well, duh. Can I blame this on lack of coffee? No wait, it was WAY too late in the day to pull that one off... ???
All is forgiven.. LOL. But you did have me scratching my head on what I wrote.. :-[
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TO hijack this thread, but on topic..
What are folks recommendations around RTA'ing the "room" with the DRPA for every gig??
I'm not doing it, but am playing in a band where I don't own or run the PA and the owner/band leader has been doing it since some guy at GC told him to.
I have my opinions, but would like to get some feedback from the pro's on here..
TIA..
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TO hijack this thread, but on topic..
What are folks recommendations around RTA'ing the "room" with the DRPA for every gig??
I'm not doing it, but am playing in a band where I don't own or run the PA and the owner/band leader has been doing it since some guy at GC told him to.
I have my opinions, but would like to get some feedback from the pro's on here..
TIA..
I use a baseline that I've developed for whichever rig I'm using and if I have time and the ability to do so without causing a bunch of heartache for the client or venue then sure, why not? Otherwise, unless I'm in a REALLY nasty environment, nope. Granted, I'm doing small gigs but I've found that once I get a config sorted and tweaked I rarely pink a room.
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TO hijack this thread, but on topic..
What are folks recommendations around RTA'ing the "room" with the DRPA for every gig??
I'm not doing it, but am playing in a band where I don't own or run the PA and the owner/band leader has been doing it since some guy at GC told him to.
I have my opinions, but would like to get some feedback from the pro's on here..
TIA..
An RTA can be used as a valuable tool so long as the user understands what it does not show, and how those factors influence what is seen on the RTA. Technique and experience are paramount.
That is probably not the case here.
Here's the deal: once a system's individual components are aligned to create a cohesive system, the only thing left is the ACOUSTIC INTERFACE between that system and the room. Our tools to help are basically aiming of speakers and limited electrical changes via EQ. You can't "EQ the room" without a CAT D9 EQ (search for Cat D9). If there are ugly things happening as seen on the RTA, just move the mic a few feet and it will change... maybe a prettier picture, maybe uglier, maybe just different... which, if any, is correct?
I think the system in question should be set up outdoors, away from reflective structures (50' or more would be good) and do a "ground plane" measurement. When the system is moved indoors, there will probably be more LF because of boundary loading and possibly cabin gain. But after this, there shouldn't be a need to use the RTA at setup.
The RTA can still be useful in ringing out monitors and other stuff because EQ is probably the only tool available to tame them in situ... but for the PA, there is more benefit from moving speakers around than trying to fix an acoustic problem with an electronic device.
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You can't "EQ the room" without a CAT D9 EQ (search for Cat D9).
What kind of rack do you use for that D9? Can you lift it by yourself after it's racked?
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I think the system in question should be set up outdoors, away from reflective structures (50' or more would be good) and do a "ground plane" measurement. When the system is moved indoors, there will probably be more LF because of boundary loading and possibly cabin gain. But after this, there shouldn't be a need to use the RTA at setup.
Crud.. I wrote a long reply to this, somehow refreshed the page and I lost it.. grrrr.
Anyway.. it said that's what I had done with my 3-way system. Gain staged, then on the DRPA set up xover points, balanced out gain levels for sub, mids, highs, set up delay between subs/tops (9ms on that system) then set limiters. NO EQ, NO AFE's on DRPA. Saved the settings.. Never pinked a room with that system in 3 yrs. It always sounded great.
My concern here is that this PA system get's pinked BEFORE EVERY gig, which causes the board EQ to be invalidated/off each time. This band mixes from stage and plays mostly double headers - Fri/Sat at same venue. Case in point.. drummer was running late last Fri, so we waited on him to get set up and 15min before start time we go to do a quick sound check. No sound FOH. After much running around, turns out the mute buttons on the PA+ MID/HIGH outs had been tripped "ON". Guessing that happened during the pinking process somewhere along the way. This was discovered while testing amp outputs, speaker cables and running pink noise from the PA+. Ended up with EQ/AFE's being flat/off, and PA sounded great. I show up Sat night and the PA doesn't sound quite as "tight". Turns out he arrived before every one and pinked the room. Music is never run thru this system to test the balance. I used a couple of tracks that I knew well, and always ran thru before the gig to ensure it was sounding good.
I'm not sure how to show him how much extra work he's having to do before each gig. After each pink, he's ends up re-EQing every channel to offset PA+ EQ changes for the room. And... settings are not being saved for each venue and recalled. Thoughts on how best to approach the topic.. it IS his PA, and he IS the band leader.