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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Alan Chavis on July 09, 2014, 09:36:07 AM
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Hello,
I'm a member of a rock cover band. The band consists of drums, two electric guitars, bass, lead vocal, and up to three backing vocals. We play hard rock from classic rock to newer alternative stuff, with a few more pop/danceable tunes here and there.
We mostly play smaller outdoor gigs for 100 people or less. Restaurant patios, backyard parties, etc. If we are playing for a larger audience, we will likely hire a sound engineer who will provide equipment.
We currently have a Presonus 16.0.2 mixing board, two Mackie Thump TH-12A powered speakers which we're using for mains, and two Alto TS110A powered speakers which we use for floor monitors.
I'm trying to develop a strategy to upgrade our PA system that can handle our typical self-provided sound system needs.
We are somewhat space challenged because we don't currently have a trailer or a pickup truck. We're hauling everything around in a couple of sport utes and a wagon.
It seems like the first thing we need to do is buy a subwoofer (or two). I've been looking at the JBL PRX715XLF for its low weight and smaller size.
Would a 15" sub such as this be adequate for this application? If we eventually bought a second 15" sub, would that be better than just having a single 18" sub? Space-wise, it seems like a single 18" would take up less space than two 15's.
When we eventually upgrade our tops, would a 10" speaker such as the PRX710 be enough for this application, or should we be looking at 12" speakers?
Thanks for your help!
Alan
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I'm a member of a rock cover band. The band consists of drums, two electric guitars, bass, lead vocal, and up to three backing vocals. We play hard rock from classic rock to newer alternative stuff, with a few more pop/danceable tunes here and there.
We mostly play smaller outdoor gigs for 100 people or less. Restaurant patios, backyard parties, etc. If we are playing for a larger audience, we will likely hire a sound engineer who will provide equipment.
We currently have a Presonus 16.0.2 mixing board, two Mackie Thump TH-12A powered speakers which we're using for mains, and two Alto TS110A powered speakers which we use for floor monitors.
I'm trying to develop a strategy to upgrade our PA system that can handle our typical self-provided sound system needs.
We are somewhat space challenged because we don't currently have a trailer or a pickup truck. We're hauling everything around in a couple of sport utes and a wagon.
It seems like the first thing we need to do is buy a subwoofer (or two). I've been looking at the JBL PRX715XLF for its low weight and smaller size.
Would a 15" sub such as this be adequate for this application? If we eventually bought a second 15" sub, would that be better than just having a single 18" sub? Space-wise, it seems like a single 18" would take up less space than two 15's.
When we eventually upgrade our tops, would a 10" speaker such as the PRX710 be enough for this application, or should we be looking at 12" speakers?
First off, almost anything would be an improvement over the Thumps. Now back to the topic at hand. Personally, I prefer 12" FOH cabinets when paired with subs; however, the PRX710 is a fairly potent little beast, and either would be a huge upgrade to your rig. Have you considered a single PRX718? Place it in front of DSC (ie: dead center in front of the stage). For monitors, I've had surprisingly good results with the Alto SXM112a. They're dirt cheap, and do a really good job.
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I think the Thuds (because they sound best hitting the dumpster, but I'm called a gear snob here) are the current weak link in your system.
In business it is best to NOT make lateral moves, say replacing the Thumps with a similar box, then adding subs and replacing the replacement tops with smaller top boxes. You're buying the same basic capability twice, to replace something inadequate at its initial purchase.
There are 2 Wonderful Generalizations®-
1) Buy once, cry once.
2) The wrong product at the 'right price' is still the wrong product.
These go together. I'd add - if you don't have the time/money/interest to do something right the first time, when will you have the time/money/interest to do it all over?
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Have you considered a single PRX718?
Thanks for the reply. I have considered the PRX718. I guess I have two questions related to this:
1. Is an 18" sub going to be that much better for my application to justify the extra size and weight over the 15" version?
2. Am I better off with a single 18" sub than two 15" subs, or should I just plan to buy two 18" subs?
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I think the Thuds (because they sound best hitting the dumpster, but I'm called a gear snob here) are the current weak link in your system.
Wow! No love for the Thumps around here! I guess we are right to be upgrading our system!
1) Buy once, cry once.
2) The wrong product at the 'right price' is still the wrong product.
These go together. I'd add - if you don't have the time/money/interest to do something right the first time, when will you have the time/money/interest to do it all over?
OK, this makes perfect sense, and Buy Once, Cry Once is precisely what we need to do.
Fundamentally, I'd like to understand what type of system would meet our needs, then purchase the components (possibly in stages depending on what we can afford).
Would a couple of 12" tops over a single 18" sub do what we need? Do we need two subs? Could we use 15" subs to save space?
Thanks!
Alan
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1)Would a couple of 12" tops over a single 18" sub do what we need?
2)Do we need two subs?
3)Could we use 15" subs to save space?
Alan,
1) Yes, if they are of decent quality.
2) No, if one sub can provide the sound pressure level (SPL) you want.
2) A pair of 15" will not likely save vehicle space over a single 18", but can be used as a base for a pole mount, which is more stable than a stand taking up similar floor space, and more consistent than a single sub randomly placed.
A pair of 15" have considerably more cone area than one 18" ( about 266 square inches compared to 177) so generally will put out more SPL.
A pair of 12" are close to the same cone area as one 18", so can generally outrun a typical 18".
If you don't need to go super low, but want very compact, the DSL TH-Mini can equal the output of a typical 18", but cost more.
Art
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If you're budget-conscious, you could use the thumps as extra monitors, they aren't good enough for mains.
Going sub-sat would greatly improve your sound so that the tops don't have to struggle trying to cover the whole spectrum. A typical config would be a 12 pole mounted on an 18. What's your budget?
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What's your budget?
I think we are willing to spend whatever it takes to get a good system that meets our needs.
However, I'd probably lean toward getting more back for my buck rather than spending more just for the top-of-the-line when it doesn't really gain us much.
We aren't touring and we try to take care of our stuff, so we don't need as much durability as others might.
I was looking at the Yamaha DXR series, which seems like it could be a good middle ground, but the subs don't appear to have their own crossovers, so that would preclude us from using them with our existing mains if we wanted to purchase new mains at a later time.
The size and weight of the JBL PRX715XLF sub is what attracted me to JBL, although I realize it is quite a bit more expensive than some of the other options.
We would like to end up with a completely new system, but it might be necessary for us to upgrade a few parts at a time. Sub or subs, then new mains, then new monitors, etc.
Thanks for the help!
Alan
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I think we are willing to spend whatever it takes to get a good system that meets our needs.
However, I'd probably lean toward getting more back for my buck rather than spending more just for the top-of-the-line when it doesn't really gain us much.
We aren't touring and we try to take care of our stuff, so we don't need as much durability as others might.
I was looking at the Yamaha DXR series, which seems like it could be a good middle ground, but the subs don't appear to have their own crossovers, so that would preclude us from using them with our existing mains if we wanted to purchase new mains at a later time.
The size and weight of the JBL PRX715XLF sub is what attracted me to JBL, although I realize it is quite a bit more expensive than some of the other options.
We would like to end up with a completely new system, but it might be necessary for us to upgrade a few parts at a time. Sub or subs, then new mains, then new monitors, etc.
Thanks for the help!
Alan
I suggest that you adopt a 'full system' approach, not mix and match different brands and models. That said, if you've decided to buy XYZ subs today and plan to replace the Thuds with XYZ tops in 6 months, maybe we can find a way to make it all play nicer for that time.
The powered Yamaha boxes are getting good reviews here, the JBL PRX 700 series seem to have enthusiastic users, RCF, Alto, others...
Sorry I can't suggest specific models - my situation isn't like yours - what I hope to accomplish is for you and your band to not make multiple lateral purchases.
You told us a little about your band a music but can you give us more details? Do you now, or plan on micing up the whole drum kit? Do you run guitars or bass through the PA? If you don't and have no future plans to do so, we might have different suggestions than the path you're currently asking about.
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You told us a little about your band a music but can you give us more details? Do you now, or plan on micing up the whole drum kit? Do you run guitars or bass through the PA? If you don't and have no future plans to do so, we might have different suggestions than the path you're currently asking about.
We mic the kick drum and the snare, then we have a couple of condensers up top to capture hi hat, toms, and cymbols. I don't think we plan on adding any more drum mics for our typical gigs.
We've been running both guitars and bass into the PA. This is not out of necessity as both guitar amps are plenty loud on their own, but rather because we would prefer to keep our on-stage volume lower and use the mains for the audience levels. Our bass player just bought a new 500 watt 2x10 amp, so we may not need bass in the mains any more.
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We mic the kick drum and the snare, then we have a couple of condensers up top to capture hi hat, toms, and cymbols. I don't think we plan on adding any more drum mics for our typical gigs.
We've been running both guitars and bass into the PA. This is not out of necessity as both guitar amps are plenty loud on their own, but rather because we would prefer to keep our on-stage volume lower and use the mains for the audience levels. Our bass player just bought a new 500 watt 2x10 amp, so we may not need bass in the mains any more.
That's an awful lot to be running thru a crappy set of mains. With your current micing setup, I'd suggest at least a pair of good quality 12" tops and at least one good quality 18" sub. Your kick drum is probably eating up a lot of available headroom as it is, and a sub would take most of the brunt out and also leave some space for the bass if you needed or wanted it. The JBL PRX 700 series powered stuff would serve you well and hold its value, as other brands within their price range would, to each their own.
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I have a pair of QSC K10's over a single KW181 and it is plenty for the type of gigs you describe. I don't know if there is any real benefit of the K12's over the K10's if you are running a sub. Just extra weight and size to carry around. I like the KW181 over the JBL PRX sub because it is physically smaller. I also don't like how the PRX stuff doesn't have a hi-pass filter in the tops. Can't run aux fed subs without some sort of external crossover. The Yamaha DXR tops are as good or better than the K series and cheaper when buying new. If I didn't get a good deal on a used pair of K10's I would have gone with DXR10's. The Yamaha sub (DSR118) isn't bad but not quite in the same league as the KW181.
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I would add my voice to others that have stated their disdain for the thumps. Not a fan.
I would also agree, that while I don't care for the thumps, adding a sub or two should be your first order of business as it will relieve the tops of the kick drum and bass frequencies that it really can't handle anyway.
I sadly haven't heard the PRX715XLF, but have heard good things about it from some who have used it. Personally, I don't see the wisdom in going with the 715 over the 718 unless you are very concerned with space.
The 718XLF will put out noticeably more output and go noticeably lower than the 715 (134 VS 131 db).
The best system would be a pair of 712's over a pair of 718's; however, it is larger and a little more expensive than .....
.... a pair of 710's over a pair of 715's. This will likely get the job done (certainly light years better than the thumps), but will run out of gas quite a bit earlier than the first system.
If you are really pressed for space, and are trying to conserve your funds, a pair of 710's and a single 718XLF.
@Hampton,
I have a neighbor with a KW system (153's over 181's). While I agree with your assessment that the 181 is noticeably smaller (not lighter) than the 718XLF, I thought the XLF was cleaner, tighter and punchier.
Originally, the PRX618S-XLF used the same driver as the VRX918p (powered touring sub). I think that the XLF's are one of the best "bang for the buck" quality subs out there. I really like the sound.
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I would add my voice to others that have stated their disdain for the thumps. Not a fan.
I would also agree, that while I don't care for the thumps, adding a sub or two should be your first order of business as it will relieve the tops of the kick drum and bass frequencies that it really can't handle anyway.
I sadly haven't heard the PRX715XLF, but have heard good things about it from some who have used it. Personally, I don't see the wisdom in going with the 715 over the 718 unless you are very concerned with space.
The 718XLF will put out noticeably more output and go noticeably lower than the 715 (134 VS 131 db).
The best system would be a pair of 712's over a pair of 718's; however, it is larger and a little more expensive than .....
.... a pair of 710's over a pair of 715's. This will likely get the job done (certainly light years better than the thumps), but will run out of gas quite a bit earlier than the first system.
If you are really pressed for space, and are trying to conserve your funds, a pair of 710's and a single 718XLF.
@Hampton,
I have a neighbor with a KW system (153's over 181's). While I agree with your assessment that the 181 is noticeably smaller (not lighter) than the 718XLF, I thought the XLF was cleaner, tighter and punchier.
Originally, the PRX618S-XLF used the same driver as the VRX918p (powered touring sub). I think that the XLF's are one of the best "bang for the buck" quality subs out there. I really like the sound.
The Thud sub is no better a sub than the tops are PA boxes. Run.
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We mic the kick drum and the snare, then we have a couple of condensers up top to capture hi hat, toms, and cymbols. I don't think we plan on adding any more drum mics for our typical gig.
I find a telltale giveaway for amateur bands is not micing the toms. You want to create 'heft' and having a beefy kick and distant toms goes in the wrong direction. The snare usually cuts better and if the drummer hits hard and/or plays rim shots on every hit, the toms have no way of keeping up dynamically.
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I find a telltale giveaway for amateur bands is not micing the toms. You want to create 'heft' and having a beefy kick and distant toms goes in the wrong direction. The snare usually cuts better and if the drummer hits hard and/or plays rim shots on every hit, the toms have no way of keeping up dynamically.
Yepper. I remember back in the old days, using the high hat mic for snare pick up. We didn't need no stinkin' snare drum mic. Oh, and it sounded like a snare drum... we didn't need no stinkin' bottom mic - we gave the drummer a tuning key.
Nurse will be along with my meds soon...
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I remember back in the old days, using the high hat mic for snare pick up.
We used to do the same - except that we considered it to be the snare drum mic which also picked up the hi hat.
Steve.
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We used to do the same - except that we considered it to be the snare drum mic which also picked up the hi hat.
Steve.
Yeah, and you guys drive on the wrong side of the road, too, so I'm driving down the middle. Have the valet bring my Lambo around... ;)
My brief time in a commercial recording studio led my calling it the HH mic... our staff engineer had this thing about 'those damn loud snare drums'. He'd send me into the drum booth to move the mic around.
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Yea Tim, I agree. The thumps (tops and subs) are not very good sounding speakers.
I have also found that micing up the toms makes a world of difference. The problem many entry level bar bands have is that they don't have enough channels, don't have gates (or know how to use them), and don't have enough or the right kind of microphones to mic the toms well.
It is has also been hard for me to get a drummer that can control their volume in smaller venues. A drummer can overwhelm even a venue of ~250 with too much cymbal and rim-shot snare hits. I had a drummer I used to call wood chuck because at the end of every practice and gig, there was a pile of wood chips all around his kit from all the rim shots (he had big ole gorilla arms too).
To the OP. Coming from thumps, any of the proposed speakers will be a night and day improvement.
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Two quick points neither about gear. I've recently had the pleasure of learning that a drummer with a quality kit who can tune it, doesn't require gates. I've always gated drums before. He asked me to try without and they sound great.
Lack of space to haul gear. Rent a 4x8 Uhaul. Costs $15 and can be towed by almost anything. Less limitation on gear choices.
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Yea Tim, I agree. The thumps (tops and subs) are not very good sounding speakers.
I have also found that micing up the toms makes a world of difference. The problem many entry level bar bands have is that they don't have enough channels, don't have gates (or know how to use them), and don't have enough or the right kind of microphones to mic the toms well.
It is has also been hard for me to get a drummer that can control their volume in smaller venues. A drummer can overwhelm even a venue of ~250 with too much cymbal and rim-shot snare hits. I had a drummer I used to call wood chuck because at the end of every practice and gig, there was a pile of wood chips all around his kit from all the rim shots (he had big ole gorilla arms too).
To the OP. Coming from thumps, any of the proposed speakers will be a night and day improvement.
Laughing, I told a drummer once that he had had all the finesse of an ape with turret's syndrome. None of his bandmates liked him so I didn't even get fired. An even more humorous situation was a guy walks up to me and identifies himself as the lead singers Dad. Asks me if he could purchase anything to make his Son sound better, I suggested singing lessons. He walked off in complete disgust.
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The problem many entry level bar bands have is that they don't have enough channels
In that situation, I would consider a parallel connection of two or even three identical tom mics. It would just need an adaptor with a couple of resistors per mic input.
Certainly not ideal having a single channel controlling EQ and gain for three mics but probably better than not having them.
Steve.
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I find a telltale giveaway for amateur bands is not micing the toms. You want to create 'heft' and having a beefy kick and distant toms goes in the wrong direction. The snare usually cuts better and if the drummer hits hard and/or plays rim shots on every hit, the toms have no way of keeping up dynamically.
That's funny because I find a tell tale sign of an amateur engineer is micing all the drums when just kick, snare and overhead, or sometimes even just kick and overhead is correct for the venue.
Lack of space to haul gear. Rent a 4x8 Uhaul. Costs $15 and can be towed by almost anything. Less limitation on gear choices.
I just bought a brand new 5 x 8 trailer for $2000. Less than a lot of guitar amps. A lot of it it is priorities among musicians. My Fender Twin is in the storage, because I can take out a $270 Roland Cube that weighs 20 lbs to my band's gigs because I've got the PA to run it through.
Some of the guys who hire me to do sound have $10,000 worth of guitars on stage and they tell me the wish they could afford a nice PA. Why does a guy in a bar level band need to switch between 6 guitars through out the night? I carry one guitar to play, one small amp, and bring along a guitar that never comes out of the case just in case I would break a string early in the set. It has yet to make an appearance on stage.
Band's getting $400-500 to play, they're giving me $300 of it and the two guitar players each have Marshall stacks in a room with 150 people. Poor choices in priorities.
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That's funny because I find a tell tale sign of an amateur engineer is micing all the drums when just kick, snare and overhead, or sometimes even just kick and overhead is correct for the venue.
I just bought a brand new 5 x 8 trailer for $2000. Less than a lot of guitar amps. A lot of it it is priorities among musicians. My Fender Twin is in the storage, because I can take out a $270 Roland Cube that weighs 20 lbs to my band's gigs because I've got the PA to run it through.
Some of the guys who hire me to do sound have $10,000 worth of guitars on stage and they tell me the wish they could afford a nice PA. Why does a guy in a bar level band need to switch between 6 guitars through out the night? I carry one guitar to play, one small amp, and bring along a guitar that never comes out of the case just in case I would break a string early in the set. It has yet to make an appearance on stage.
Band's getting $400-500 to play, they're giving me $300 of it and the two guitar players each have Marshall stacks in a room with 150 people. Poor choices in priorities.
Starting a small business with insufficient capital is the number one reason for failure. Second is a business plan. Using a U-Haul is not a viable plan and doesn't speak of any professionalism to your clients. It's fine if it's a hobby shop but not for a serious business trying to compete.
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Also not ideal, but you can get a small, quality mixer with 4-8 mic channels under $100 and mix the drums on stage and need only one channel at FOH.
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I most always channels to burn but often not the time to put 8 mics on the kit. Sometimes the drummer is so late setting up, kick, ride & hat are it. I get plenty of snare and everything else for the most part.
If a band only plays a couple of times a month, the u-haul might make sense if one is available nearby. Otherwise look on Craig's list and buy a reasonable storage unit on wheels :-)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Starting a small business with insufficient capital is the number one reason for failure. Second is a business plan. Using a U-Haul is not a viable plan and doesn't speak of any professionalism to your clients. It's fine if it's a hobby shop but not for a serious business trying to compete.
I'm not sure that I agree on that. What looks less professional, pulling a bunch of gear crammed in the back of an SUV, or unloading a U-haul?
Yes, over the long term, buying your own may be a better investment, but if you have easy access to Uhaul trailers, you can rent the size you need for the show you're doing, and then not have to worry about storage or maintenance of the trailer. You could do 100+ shows with a rented Uhaul for the same price as buying your own. If I had to pick a piece of gear to rent versus purchase, the transportation is first on the list.
FYI, for my larger shows, I ALWAYS rent a truck for the show. I do maybe a dozen shows a year that require a large truck. Sure, I could buy some beater like the other guys do, but would that look more professional that showing up in a shiny new Ryder that I don't have to store or maintain?
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A company I work for occasionally has its own trailer but doesn't own a truck to pull it. They just hire someone to pick it up and deliver it then return it to its parking place after the event.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3525/3812639338_70178519d7.jpg)
Steve.
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Another good compromise for the lack of channels issue is to mic the kick and hat, and put a decent condenser as an overhead. eq out the highs around 2K and above (in smaller rooms the snare and cymbals are going to be plenty loud anyway IME) and you can get a decent mix on the drums.
It is my preference to always mic the toms even in a small venue (100-300). You just don't get much low end from them if you don't and I don't care for the sound of the drums without punchy toms.
I have a similar argument for the kick.
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I was thinking about this further today. I think seven drum mics could be used on four channels without too much compromise. Parallel three tom mics as I suggested earlier and also parallel two overheads. With the right resistors in the adaptor and matching mikes, I think even two phantom powered condensers will work in parallel.
Steve.
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I was thinking about this further today. I think seven drum mics could be used on four channels without too much compromise. Parallel three tom mics as I suggested earlier and also parallel two overheads. With the right resistors in the adaptor and matching mikes, I think even two phantom powered condensers will work in parallel.
Steve.
I've never paralleled tom mics, but I parallel two condensers for overheads all the time with a simple y-cord and it works just fine. I know that using a y-cord to combine sources is a no-no (y-cords are for sending one source to two places), but that's mostly because it can cause cancellation of low frequencies which isn't an issue with overheads.
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I know that using a y-cord to combine sources is a no-no (y-cords are for sending one source to two places), but that's mostly because it can cause cancellation of low frequencies which isn't an issue with overheads.
I wouldn't use a straight Y adaptor to combine two active outputs (e.g. from a mixer) into one without some resistance included to sum them together.
I think I would prefer some resistance too if paralleling two condenser mics to help even out the current share and prevent uneven voltage drop, especially if the two mics were not the same. If one draws more current than the other, the voltage drop at pins 2 and 3 might not be enough for the other mic to work properly.
However, in reality it's probably not much of a problem as the majority of condenser mics seem to be rated between 9 and 52 volts and it's normal to use two identical mics for overheads.
Steve.
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I've never paralleled tom mics, but I parallel two condensers for overheads all the time with a simple y-cord and it works just fine. I know that using a y-cord to combine sources is a no-no (y-cords are for sending one source to two places), but that's mostly because it can cause cancellation of low frequencies which isn't an issue with overheads.
This may be totally radical but when I am faced with a shortage of channels i use just one overhead. As a matter of fact even when provided nearly unlimited channels I use a single overhead.
Just like with speakers, one source will always sound better than two at roughly the same level with differing arrival times.
I believe the practice simply lingers from the same days of piling more speakers as a solution to needing more level. I have read plenty of recording studio articles about what is needed to time align the two overhead mics without one of the articles mentioning what is actually gained by having two mics.
For my personal mixing, if I want to be totally excessive with a drum kit I am more likely to undermic the ride and use a single overhead for the rest of the metal.
I am a fan of always putting the mics there in the first place. Nothing says you have to use it in the mic, but if it is not there in the first place then you definitely can't use it. It is not uncommon in my mix style that at small shows the mic is not really used to increase the overall stage volume but just to add enough to change the tone. This also works with guitar amps. Don't be afraid of pretty radical channel eq settings just to provide some help to what is missing in the overall mix.
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I wouldn't use a straight Y adaptor to combine two active outputs (e.g. from a mixer) into one without some resistance included to sum them together.
I think I would prefer some resistance too if paralleling two condenser mics to help even out the current share and prevent uneven voltage drop, especially if the two mics were not the same. If one draws more current than the other, the voltage drop at pins 2 and 3 might not be enough for the other mic to work properly.
However, in reality it's probably not much of a problem as the majority of condenser mics seem to be rated between 9 and 52 volts and it's normal to use two identical mics for overheads.
Steve.
The condensers I've used for overheads have always been identical units. I have no idea which cymbals are which, but one mic is on the cymbal on drummer's left and one is over the three on his right. Positioning is dictated more by where he won't hit them than by optimum pick up. Gets the job done.
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On the subject of tom mics, I saw a band last week. Outdoors, ~200 people. K10 for mains, a single sub at stage left.
The drums had a kick and a single overhead. Sadly, the drum fills were really lost in the mix. BUT, this is a nine piece band, with two funk guitars, four vocals, and three horns. It's easy to lose things in that.
I always mic all toms, then adjust each channel as necessary. Most of the time, the 10" tom has a very low level in the mains. But any toms >12" are, and sound great coming through the mains.
I work in a 140 person capacity club.
Here's the crowd and venue from the show last week:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x28nsocwmv5e1fs/Photo%20Jul%2015%2C%207%2032%2023%20PM.jpg
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Most of the time, the 10" tom has a very level in the mains. But any toms >12" are, and sound great coming through the mains.
Quite existential thoughts, Colin ;).
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Quite existential thoughts, Colin ;).
Fixed... >_>
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Starting a small business with insufficient capital is the number one reason for failure. Second is a business plan. Using a U-Haul is not a viable plan and doesn't speak of any professionalism to your clients. It's fine if it's a hobby shop but not for a serious business trying to compete.
I think using a U-Haul trailer is perfectly fine for what the OP is doing. It's especially smart not to tie up capital if they aren't sure how the venture is going to work out. And, I think bar owner's care more about the bar receipts than whether or not the band's gear showed up in a U-Haul.
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On the subject of tom mics, I saw a band last week. Outdoors, ~200 people. K10 for mains, a single sub at stage left.
The drums had a kick and a single overhead. Sadly, the drum fills were really lost in the mix. BUT, this is a nine piece band, with two funk guitars, four vocals, and three horns. It's easy to lose things in that.
Here's the crowd and venue from the show last week:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x28nsocwmv5e1fs/Photo%20Jul%2015%2C%207%2032%2023%20PM.jpg
"K10 for mains, a single sub at stage left." Unless the panoramic shot is greatly exaggerrating depth of venue, I'd say that might be more the issue than the mic choice. That's a lot of band and audience for that system to handle.
Of course EQ on the overhead channel and mic placement might be the issue as well. I've had great success using a single overhead to capture toms at outdoor shows. Does help though not to have mic placed too high above kit, IMO. I usually drop it in as low as drummer can stand and point it where ever it gives me the most even coverage. That and remembering to drop the HPF if you're used to using overhead just for cymbals.
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I think using a U-Haul trailer is perfectly fine for what the OP is doing. It's especially smart not to tie up capital if they aren't sure how the venture is going to work out. And, I think bar owner's care more about the bar receipts than whether or not the band's gear showed up in a U-Haul.
I rent trucks all the time. No overhead, no repair costs, and transportation is a line item reimbursed for by the customer. There are a number of rental offices nearby and for most drop off where I'm going to load the truck initially is an option, so in many cases I don't even have to pick it up. And customers could give two shits about the truck or where it comes from. I am selective though. I once turned down a U-Haul rental because it was during their animals on the side period of time and the truck I was offered had a raccoon on the side of it.
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Correct on the rental, also the insurance is expensive but worth it depending the location and traffic in the area. Renting the trailer is the lowest cost because they have not been charging milage or Gas refills.
two over head are because of either using stereo sound ? or area of coverage and with the area of coverage you need to have the 3 to 1 on the top but also have equal distance to the snare. If the two are not the same distance from the snare there will be phase problems with the snare bleeding into these two mic's.
I will use a single 9 out of 10 on overheads.