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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Sean Thomas on November 06, 2013, 10:22:21 PM
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Some of the worst band mixes I've ever heard on live TV.
Some were better than others. The bad ones sounded like Karoke with the tracks almost off.
Is this a BE issue, or is the TV mix being mixed in a broadcast truck? Do BE have any control over
this mix? If not, who does?
Taylor Swifts set - all vocal ques were missed. Tim McG - 80% vocals only mix. Zac Brown sounds good.
Why such bad mixes?
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Rarely do the BE's ever have any control. Usually there is a production mixer (or 2) that mix the live even. Often times BE's can offer input during rehearsals, but this is more of a courtesy to the artist and to guide production engineer in the subtleties of the artist.
Sometimes the broadcast truck gets the mix of the band minus vocal, and separate vocal and announce feeds. Perhaps this is where any discrepancies exist? I am not watching the broadcast, so I cannot comment on specifics.
More than likely it has something to do with the technology after it leaves the broadcast truck.
~Dave
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My assumption is that much of this comes from mixes that originate from the event as 5.1 surround mixes. Aside from the vast majority of viewers not listening on a system with anything more than two speakers, the mix has to get through various levels of local broadcasters that may or may not be routing/processing the mix properly.
I'm sure it sounded great in the truck.
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I wonder why we must have this conversation after every single televised music event.
My conclusion is that mixing for broadcast is a very different gig than mixing a live show, and comments by people with no experience doing it is like Monday morning comments about a quarterbacks performance from someone who can barely run to the frig and back during a commercial break.
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Because this is the WWW and what punters do.
I suspect mixing for broadcast is a skill just like other types of mixing, with unique challenges.
JR
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Because this is the WWW and what punters do.
I suspect mixing for broadcast is a skill just like other types of mixing, with unique challenges.
JR
+1, and as others have eluded to: I'm sure it's like drawing a picture and then running it through a few fax machines of varying quality.
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I'll always allow bad mixes because I've been fortunate enough to hear a broadcast mix in the truck and then on the satellite return and man it isn't pretty what happen in route. However there were several glaring missed pick-ups that no piece of gear is accountable for. That's a human error.
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I'll always allow bad mixes because I've been fortunate enough to hear a broadcast mix in the truck and then on the satellite return and man it isn't pretty what happen in route. However there were several glaring missed pick-ups that no piece of gear is accountable for. That's a human error.
I would think all the artists involved would prefer that a good solid stereo mix be broadcast and let the end user muck it up. For me, I watch almost zero TV so I have a basic setup, no fancy surround sound,etc, and I would bet that most people that watch award shows don't expect or need 5.1 surround or more. Nothing more frustrating than trying to hear 5.1 encoded vocals without a center speaker. I would love someone in the know to explain why it is a good thing to make a broadcast as complicated as possible at the source. I admit that I have little knowledge but am curious.
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This isn't Monday morning quarterbacking.
The Taylor Swift mix has a lot of people mad all over the internet. No matter who, what or why - some of the mixes suck.
Others were GREAT. I am just curious about the discrepancy, especially if it was the same guy on the truck mixing. It seemed
like it got better near the end. I think ZB with Grohl sounded great. You could hear the drums and guitars.
I listend on a NAD 5.1 system and a stereo mix on the iMac.
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I'm more surprised that people are upset about a Taylor Swift mix... Maybe latency from auto tune or from playback of her tracks? My girls like her, but we already hds the talk that that girl couldn't sing in tune if her life depended on it.
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I'm more surprised that people are upset about a Taylor Swift mix... Maybe latency from auto tune or from playback of her tracks? My girls like her, but we already hds the talk that that girl couldn't sing in tune if her life depended on it.
She can sing better than I do, and has written many successful songs. Not to mention she is easier on the eyes.
This hasn't been just about how people sound since well before MTV.
JR
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My assumption is that much of this comes from mixes that originate from the event as 5.1 surround mixes. Aside from the vast majority of viewers not listening on a system with anything more than two speakers, the mix has to get through various levels of local broadcasters that may or may not be routing/processing the mix properly.
I'm sure it sounded great in the truck.
this I think.
The BE will be mixing live in the venue usually, and someone from the TV company mixing the broadcast mix. They tend to lean towards mixing vocals up front to make sure they are clear in people's homes, but then even a perfectly acceptable mix can be ruined by going through a couple of broadcasters systems who's compression, routing and processing can be all manner of things, and then into a multitude of homes with all sorts of varying levels of speakers/amps/set ups.
k
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I've pretty much given up watching award shows on anything BUT my surround system. For this particular show I just boosted my center channel speaker and the mixes were fine. The 2 channel feed when listened to on my other tv's in the house...ewww... couldn't hear a vocal for anyone really. It's been the same for a few years so I've just adapted my watching/listening habits.
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I agree. We pound the shit out of every major event on TV, and few of us really know what hardships are encountered by the people working the job. I think everything sounds wonderful through my system, but I really liked the sound of Uncle Milty on our Dumont too. Watching the show off and on I think Ms. Swifts legs sounded just great in Boston.
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Some of the worst band mixes I've ever heard on live TV.
Why such bad mixes?
While I cannot give you an absolute answer, I can maybe provide some insight.
Firstly, these are one off live events, usually with little or no rehearsal. With a lot of "moving parts" talent schedules and production limitations it just isn't going to be as tight and polished as everyone hoped for.
Then as we sometimes say in radio: TV people only notice the sound quality when it isn't there at all". Ok maybe that is a little harsh and with HDTV and lots of high end sound in the consumers living room there is a demand for higher quality audio then was provided in past decades.
Another thing to consider: the audio mixer is answerable to a production director who will insist that whatever visual image he has switched to it prominently heard. Most of the time this is going to be the vocal. you have probably seen it yourself, when he switches to drums or guitar, suddenly that instrument becomes prominent. As a live sound guy this will bother you but that the way its gonna be.
The radio feed however, was fine. it was delivered on 2 separate satellite feeds. The break, liner, end of show,and ID cues were automated, in other words the radio station got relay closures that told their automations systems what to do.
I didn't listen beyond getting the show started as i was doing prep for a concert the next day but I can review the audio logs if needed. As we didn't get any complaints from the audience, (with a 100,000 watt radio signal) I'd have to say it was just fine.
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Doing lots of TV shows with Cee Lo Green I almost always end up in the broadcast truck to "oversee" the outgoing mix since my TM and Cee Lo himself would rather have my input and oversight affecting the mix that thousands will hear rather than the few hundred or so that may be in a TV audience. To that end I've never been able to touch a fader but I always get to voice my considerations for the various important factors. I always try to get someone to watch the broadcast (if it's live) and offer their input and of course I try to get my ears on the outgoing mix as it's heard in the broadcast, which is often tougher than I would have thought. I've been fortunate so far to not have had major issues during a broadcast but there's a first time for everything... yikes.
I think perhaps the bigger award shows are just too big to get a good grip on for a million different reasons.
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As said above. The mix we hear may be the culmination of what 100 people fell is the "correct" mix. It's a whole different world than what the majority of us live in, so calling plays after the gig is equal to yelling about a Brady interception. You can scream like we do up here, but nobody's going to be taking his place any time soon. Same goes for whoever mixed the show, who to be honest did a pretty good job IMO.
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When mixing for broadcast they want you to feel that you are part of the live show. So the audience is mic'ed and in turn the house PA get's picked up through those mic's. In some show's they even get someone to do a submix of just the crowd to try and get a good balance. Also there might be submixes coming in from different areas. It is how these sources are finally mixed together can either make or break a show.