ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Brian Kilpatrick on February 05, 2013, 11:05:49 PM
-
Hey All,
I am writing this as more of an experienced musician than engineer. How do you mix monitors to promote musical dynamics awareness? For instance, do you mix a group of 6+ background vocalists flat and force them to blend or do you subside to "I cant here myself or so and so" and have people and different levels? Also, as a keyboard player, how should I desire a mix, with more of me and my personal preference or more of whats coming out of the mains. The problem is in dynamic music(when there are many crescendo/decrescendos, ect), when I have a "more of me" mix, its hard to know where i TRUELY am volume wise in relation to other instruments and the lead vocal so that I can grow or come down with others. Do you mix in more ambient mics or what? Any help is appreciated.
-
Hey All,
I am writing this as more of an experienced musician than engineer. How do you mix monitors to promote musical dynamics awareness?
We don't. We mix monitors mainly so the vocalist can stay on pitch.
For instance, do you mix a group of 6+ background vocalists flat and force them to blend or do you subside to "I cant here myself or so and so" and have people and different levels?
Whatever the occasion calls for with whatever means are available.
Also, as a keyboard player, how should I desire a mix, with more of me and my personal preference or more of whats coming out of the mains.
If you are a band you need to hear you bandmates enough to play with them. If you are just a bunch of guys on a stage it really doesn't matter.
The problem is in dynamic music(when there are many crescendo/decrescendos, ect), when I have a "more of me" mix, its hard to know where i TRUELY am volume wise in relation to other instruments and the lead vocal so that I can grow or come down with others.
This is why you rehearse.
Do you mix in more ambient mics or what? Any help is appreciated.
Nope, those are for hearing crowd noise. There is virtually no way for a musician that id part of a group on stage to know what the sound balance is to the audience without physically going out there.
-
I'm wicked evil and go by this rule: " If you don't ask for it, I won't give it to you ". I gave up trying to second guess musicians years ago. This rule has worked well for me since I implemented it. I don't tell the musicians my rule ( unless I really like them ) and only give them the obvious things they need and or ask for.
My sig says a lot: " I can't understand how you can't hear yourself "..............
I go by another rule that is even more wicked: " If you can hear yourself at all, your already too loud "................
It sounds like you have a lot going on and very little number of mixes to deal with the issue. The " More Me " mix criteria is not the way to go. Because it will always be more me........ The band needs to realize that they should be able to hear themselves where they would sit in the mix. Adding volume to things may not be the answer as much as turning down what is already too loud. The drummer usually sets the pace. Work around that and remember that if you can hear yourself, stop. If you can be quieter, then by all means be quieter. If someone is too loud tell them to turn down. Vocals usually present an issue as it seems to always be more me. I usually start with each vocalist alone in their own mix. I will usually get requests for what they each want after the first few moments of a song. My goal is to keep as much out of each mix as possible. The " little bit of everything " clause scares me......... This is usually the loudest mix and there never seems to be enough of it. But the goal is to give each musician what they desire.
As a musician you should strive to only hear what you need to perform and at a level that is relative to where you would be mixed at in the majority of the songs you play. Basically going back to the " if you can hear yourself at all " saying. Once you can hear yourself and realize where your at in the mix, then your probably already where you need to be. Any louder and your just effecting everyone else's mix. Being louder than needed to hear where your at in the mix leads to the more me syndrome. Being on both sides of the stage has shown me a lot of the pitfalls many bands fall into. My experience has shown that bands usually create 90% of their own problems. It's not the sound guys fault he can't make you sound right, or can't do this, or that. This is why good bands sound good and bad bands sound bad. It starts at the source. If it's not right there, it usually won't get any better down the road. Being able to get the right mix on stage is key to a band sounding good and mixing well together. If any one thing is too loud it will create a deficiency in performance to those musicians it effects. It's a matter of working with each other to get all that figured out before a performance. If stage levels are usually really loud and it still isn't right, its a good indication that volume may be the issue. " Too much of a good thing is still too much " is another saying I have.
The short answer to your ponder is: I give the artist what they want. When things start to get out of control I ask what can be done to fix things without going louder? The answer is usually turn that ( instrument ) down. The follow up is can you hear ( directed at instrument player ) that thing ok? If the answer is yes, then it's turn it down a bit and I can add more to your monitor mix ( if available ) if needed. I then give them the " if your can hear yourself at all " saying and wait for the gruff stares when they don't find it funny. After getting the stage volume worked out, I can then get the monitors to actually help the band. Two things have to be accomplished. The band has to be happy and hear everything and I have to do it without feedback and blowing up monitors. There is no magic sauce that is done to help with dynamics. If the band cannot work together and sound right with a reference that doesn't change ( the monitors ), then not much can help them.
-
Hey All,
I am writing this as more of an experienced musician than engineer. How do you mix monitors to promote musical dynamics awareness? For instance, do you mix a group of 6+ background vocalists flat and force them to blend or do you subside to "I cant here myself or so and so" and have people and different levels? Also, as a keyboard player, how should I desire a mix, with more of me and my personal preference or more of whats coming out of the mains. The problem is in dynamic music(when there are many crescendo/decrescendos, ect), when I have a "more of me" mix, its hard to know where i TRUELY am volume wise in relation to other instruments and the lead vocal so that I can grow or come down with others. Do you mix in more ambient mics or what? Any help is appreciated.
I give the musicians and singers the mix that they want. That does not keep them from recognizing dynamics. It does allow them to hear what they need to hear. If you have only one mix the keyboard player will never be happy, unless you make that one mix suit them. "more of me" monitor mixing still allows dynamics, because the people on stage get used to that mix and make adjustments accordingly to what they hear in their world, regardless what is going on out front.
-
I suggest that this discussion be added to a future FAQ compilation or stickied.
-
let me make one simple comment about monitor mixes. Many years ago when I stepped up from 2 monitor mixes to 4, my life got a lot easier. Even though it included a LOT more equipment, it vastly increased my ability to make the band members comfortable onstage, because they could hear what they needed to hear. An ideal scenario is to have a separate mix for everyone onstage. If a band goes to in ear monitoring, a separate mix for everyone become almost mandatory. Having "more of me" in their mix in no way inhibits their ability to be dynamic.
-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the ultimate way to go if at all possible. Even then the " more me " syndrome can be prohibitive. Spill over from each of the wedges can make for a garbled mess on stage. Especially if each mix is just ridiculously loud. The level must be respectful of each venue. Outdoors may not be as big a deal, but anytime wedges start to push more volume backwards than the FOH is pushing forwards, there is going to be an issue.
Another trick that is done is to start sound check with NO MONITORS!!!!!! Then go back and ask what each musician needs? This is a great way to get artists to see where they are with house volumes as a reference. It can help with respectful musicians to keep levels real. Some just don't get it and ask for a level that has them crawling on top of everyone and the snowball effect starts to kick in.......More me please. This again goes back to good band vs. bad band. The good ones just get it and need very little, or just the right amount of whatever and it works. Bad bands have a mix that they are never happy with and can never get enough of whatever they want. These are the ones who ask every other song for more of something.
-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Another trick that is done is to start sound check with NO MONITORS!!!!!! Then go back and ask what each musician needs? This is a great way to get artists to see where they are with house volumes as a reference.
Couldn't agree more.
-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the ultimate way to go if at all possible. Even then the " more me " syndrome can be prohibitive. Spill over from each of the wedges can make for a garbled mess on stage. Especially if each mix is just ridiculously loud. The level must be respectful of each venue. Outdoors may not be as big a deal, but anytime wedges start to push more volume backwards than the FOH is pushing forwards, there is going to be an issue.
Another trick that is done is to start sound check with NO MONITORS!!!!!! Then go back and ask what each musician needs? This is a great way to get artists to see where they are with house volumes as a reference. It can help with respectful musicians to keep levels real. Some just don't get it and ask for a level that has them crawling on top of everyone and the snowball effect starts to kick in.......More me please. This again goes back to good band vs. bad band. The good ones just get it and need very little, or just the right amount of whatever and it works. Bad bands have a mix that they are never happy with and can never get enough of whatever they want. These are the ones who ask every other song for more of something.
Very good. If the band will go along with it. I worked for one band for many years, and they wanted their own mix of everything in their wedge, including kick drum. Seriously folks, with the front man playing acoustic guitar and standing right in front of the drum kit, does he really need kick snare and hi-hat in his wedge? Not at all. I'd have two 15+horn monitors on each guy, and a 2-15 drum fill, so by the time I got them happy onstage, it was a nightmare trying to get good sound in the house. When the band is paying you, you tend to put what they ask for in the wedges.
-
It's sometimes hard to work with bands. When people ask what I do, I sometimes say that I'm an overpaid adult babysitter. It's true to a degree. I find that the magic is in finding a way to get what you want by making the band think they are the ones that arrived at it. It's a psychology game basically. Sometimes you have to spell it out for the band bluntly and other times you can coax it out of them with some gentle persuasion.
As far as who's paying me to do what? I find that honesty prevails. If a band is too loud and things are out of hand, tell them. I haven't lost a client yet from that attitude. Telling the band that a problem exists because of X reason may help open their eyes. Simple questions like, can you hear the kick and snare without them being in the monitors, can help. If the answer is yes, but I want more, can be answered with, things are loud and I need to reduce stage level, can you live without it until we get things situated? They may not be super happy, but once things are under control you can dial some back in for a smile........
-
It's sometimes hard to work with bands. When people ask what I do, I sometimes say that I'm an overpaid adult babysitter. It's true to a degree. I find that the magic is in finding a way to get what you want by making the band think they are the ones that arrived at it. It's a psychology game basically. Sometimes you have to spell it out for the band bluntly and other times you can coax it out of them with some gentle persuasion.
As far as who's paying me to do what? I find that honesty prevails. If a band is too loud and things are out of hand, tell them. I haven't lost a client yet from that attitude. Telling the band that a problem exists because of X reason may help open their eyes. Simple questions like, can you hear the kick and snare without them being in the monitors, can help. If the answer is yes, but I want more, can be answered with, things are loud and I need to reduce stage level, can you live without it until we get things situated? They may not be super happy, but once things are under control you can dial some back in for a smile........
Part of what I do is help bands figure out what they really need onstage.
Lots of folks do that.
Then I teach them how to ask for that when I am not there.
That not quite as common.
-
It's sometimes hard to work with bands. When people ask what I do, I sometimes say that I'm an overpaid adult babysitter.
This reminds me of the sig a former poster here used to use - it went something like:
"Hi, I'm your Psychoacoustic Caretaker for the evening, but you can call me the monitor mixer"
-
Thank you guys for your responses! Our genre is contemporary Gospel. Many peaks and valleys volume wise. And these guys know how to play, and dynamics never was a problem when we were just going off of amps and wedges, but we recently switched to IEMs to help with the ridiculous stage volume. I guess my thing is, everybody is sculpting their own aural world in their ears which is not reflective of whats actually going on. So our drummer has bass & organ, way up, and himself way down, little vocals if any, and thats what he likes, and feels like he plays well with that mix. But now he plays too loud, and cresendos & descresendos un-proportionately with the rest of the band, although in HIS mix he crescendo'ed perfectly because other elements in his mix are much more present than they are in reality. Our other drummer is the opposite and plays too quietly now that he can hear every nuance of his playing since he has himself up, and once again, his monitor world is not reflective of whats actually going on acoustically and FOH wise. So I guess what i was asking( and some of you already suggested), with my engineer hat on, should i be training them to shape their mix more reflective of FOH/what it would sound like acoustically, vs. them just having what they like. I guess now my question is, has anyone had any sucess following a few tips to facilitating a more musical & realistic mix? Do i recommend they add a little bit of the house mix, ambient mics to make it feel more acoustic, ect. I know there's no silver bullet, and have taken what everyone has said into consideration. Thanks again!
-
IEM mixes should be relatively complete because there's no spill from acoustic sources, other monitor or the mains. I'll skew things a little to favor what they need to hear most, but I really try to avoid leaving out any important element of the mix. For the loud drummer I would solo his mix in headphones and gently nudge his drums a bit into his mix. For the quiet drummer I would gently nudge everything but drums up until I heard him play stronger. I try to be very responsive to monitor needs, but I don't necessarily take requests literally. Asking for "more me" might actually mean they need less guitar or something.
-
I'm glad to some of you have mentioned "teaching" the musicians what they want/need to hear in their monitors, especially on iem (I'm paraphrasing). I'm primarily a bass player but have been doing quite a bit of sound also, mainly mixing from the stage for my own bands. I also provide production for the odd festival, rodeo and such. I remember about 10 years ago when my lead singer wasn't happy with her in-ear mix. I knew she couldn't be as I was running sound and her levels didn't make sense to me - but I gave her what she asked for. So one night, I switched belt packs with her and her face lit up. Right away she said "that sounds amazing! Can you make mine sound like that?" She had been singing and playing guitar for years, but was somewhat new to the world of iem and just didn't know what to ask for, or was shy about looking like a "newbie".
Fast foward about 10 years... a few months ago I did a sound gig for a friend which my band was backing up. Our lead singer used to be his bass player, so he played bass that night and I sat at FOH. This guy (playing bass for the night) usually only has himself in his mix. That night, he asked me if he could get the same mix as the drummer (the drummer and I have nearly identical mixes... everything with the drums and bass slightly louder). He was blown away from hearing everything. Not his fault, he didn't know any better and had always gotten what he asked for. I had tried to give him a bit of everything else before but he didn't want it.
Last one... fiddle player in the same band usually has a mix consisting of a lot of his fiddle/guitars/vocals. We went in the studio to record a demo in the fall and he said he had no idea how tight the drummer and I were and had never noticed all the little things we added to the songs. At the next show, he asked for a full mix.
Being a soundman is an art in itself, but you also have to be a babysitter and play the psychologist (sometimes the psychiatrist). Musicians egos are fragile and it's a fine line between offending the talent or making them happy. Sometimes we forget that some of the "talent" don't have much experience playing on bigger stages (or any stage), with any or good monitors. I often assume they know what they're doing, but it's funny how often you realize they just don't know how sound production works and how easy it can make your gig.
Personal experience on stage with iem: I've been using them for over 10 years (UE7 - love them) and usually don't run a bass rig when I can use my iem. This past summer, I played several festivals on bigger stages and one of the monitor techs gave me a wedge knowing I was on iem. I said I didn't need it, but he said he would leave it in case I popped them out of my ears. I never do and told him I would be fine. Then he told me to play with the iem in my ears but no signal, until I could feel the bass coming back at me from the wedge. He gave me a stereo feed and the wedge and it was the best sounding gig I did all summer. He wasn't really pushy about it but went to extra mile to give me a good experience and he sure did! Nice guy to boot.
So keep in mind that the talent doesn't always know what he/she wants. You don't want to offend them, but a good personality, a willingness to help/work with them will go a long way. I'm always amazed at how little some "pros" know when it comes to what you guys do. As for me, I'm glad to see both sides of it and when my job is to be onstage, I'm usually hanging out at FOH or monitor world between shows to soak up as much of your knowledge as I can. There's a lot of good people out there. :)
-
Last one... fiddle player in the same band usually has a mix consisting of a lot of his fiddle/guitars/vocals. We went in the studio to record a demo in the fall and he said he had no idea how tight the drummer and I were and had never noticed all the little things we added to the songs. At the next show, he asked for a full mix.
one of the bands I work for is all on IEMs. The lead guitarist/lead singer uses a shure in ear setup that allows for pass thru. He plugs his vocal mic and guitar amp mic into the inear mixer and out the other side back to me. I send him a POST FADER mix of the rest of the band without his guitar and vocals. The keyboard player in the band has his patches all over the place volume wise, so by going post fader, when I mix the keys into the mains, it also adjusts them in his mix. He adds the amount of his vocals and guitar he wants, and it all works great. I save the settings and every gig he asks for NO adjustments.
-
It would seem common sense that a monitor should be used to ADD what cannot be heard well at X position. The EGO thing is probably the number one driver of the ill sorted monitor mixes; ergo " More ME " ......... Not that I have looked, but I imagine there isn't many video's or text out there that prescribes exactly what the monitors are really meant for? In a perfect world......
Many engineers are reluctant to place everything in every mix ( IEM not included ) because it increases stage volume and it's highly unlikely that a singer up front needs a kick drum in his wedge. This is why the NO MONITOR during initial sound check works pretty well. The band has a chance to actually hear what they are actually missing. Then if they are realistic, can ask only for what is needed in their respective mix. This is not usually the case because there is always bias. Where it really fails is when a musician can't hear another member clearly, but continues to bash away anyway. Dynamics of a song are just that. It requires the whole team to play along and work together. There is no amount of outboard equipment, or magical pill that will fix it. It can only be fixed at the source.
If I could teach a class on how to be a good band I would just have the band repeat over and over again. " If you can't hear all the other members clearly without monitors, how can anyone else "....... Followed by " My right to be loud ends when someone else hears me ".......
-
It would seem common sense that a monitor should be used to ADD what cannot be heard well at X position. The EGO thing is probably the number one driver of the ill sorted monitor mixes; ergo " More ME " ......... Not that I have looked, but I imagine there isn't many video's or text out there that prescribes exactly what the monitors are really meant for? In a perfect world......
Many engineers are reluctant to place everything in every mix ( IEM not included ) because it increases stage volume and it's highly unlikely that a singer up front needs a kick drum in his wedge. This is why the NO MONITOR during initial sound check works pretty well. The band has a chance to actually hear what they are actually missing. Then if they are realistic, can ask only for what is needed in their respective mix. This is not usually the case because there is always bias. Where it really fails is when a musician can't hear another member clearly, but continues to bash away anyway. Dynamics of a song are just that. It requires the whole team to play along and work together. There is no amount of outboard equipment, or magical pill that will fix it. It can only be fixed at the source.
If I could teach a class on how to be a good band I would just have the band repeat over and over again. " If you can't hear all the other members clearly without monitors, how can anyone else "....... Followed by " My right to be loud ends when someone else hears me ".......
all very true, but! If you have 4 singers on one mix, none of them will usually be able to hear theirself. I've seen gospel groups with perfect 4 part harmony, and they all stood in front of the mains and had no monitors. That is the exception. Most of us aren't that good. Also, it's no fun playing in a vacuum, and most of the folks I work for don't get paid enough to do it just for the money, it has to be fun. If it doesn't feel good onstage, it isn't fun. Just telling the other side of the story.
-
I'm a musician too, so I do see it from both sides. 4 people on one mix is very difficult indeed. But not impossible. The way to win that battle is LESS, LESS, LESS..... Cutting a bit of the lows and low mids out of that mix can help clear it up. This will make each person jump out more easily. This is a mix that will require better mic control from the user. It still goes down to the simple saying. " if you can't hear everyone else, haw can anyone else " . Getting the monitor mix set up for clarity is the key. The trick is getting it so it's not muddy and garbled. It may not sound pretty, but at least they can hear each other in the monitor. The next thing is working with that mix. The artists will have to learn mic control to make space so that everyone can be heard.
It can be very fun to try new things and come across a win!!!!! I find it to be no fun when I'm not given the power to fix a problem ( that I see exists ) and failing at providing the experience everyone wants. I want nothing but wins at any cost. Sometimes I don't have control over it. The band is either inexperienced, or the sound system owner has me on lock down and I can't touch the desired knob. Even if I'm wrong it's an opportunity to learn. I'm not the best there is by any means. But I work out the problems I come across and when I'm done the clients and the artists are happy. I did it for fun till it paid. Now I get paid to do it for fun!!!!!
-
Hey All,
I am writing this as more of an experienced musician than engineer. How do you mix monitors to promote musical dynamics awareness? For instance, do you mix a group of 6+ background vocalists flat and force them to blend or do you subside to "I cant here myself or so and so" and have people and different levels? Also, as a keyboard player, how should I desire a mix, with more of me and my personal preference or more of whats coming out of the mains. The problem is in dynamic music(when there are many crescendo/decrescendos, ect), when I have a "more of me" mix, its hard to know where i TRUELY am volume wise in relation to other instruments and the lead vocal so that I can grow or come down with others. Do you mix in more ambient mics or what? Any help is appreciated.
I understand all the posts that have been made above and some very good comments. To answer you question directly, it depends. I've worked with many musicians that really do want "more me" in the monitors. That's what they are used to, and it's what they work best with so I can understand that.
I also have on several occasions worked with players that want a mix they can work with (this I think is what you are trying to get at). It is entirely possible, a good example is the guitarist that if you get the monitor right, can play happily with the band and when it comes time to do his solo, he/she can "push" their sound and get a little bit more back from the monitor that again they can "push" more against, thus controlling a lot of their own dynamic.
These sort of players are (IMHO) the exception, rather than the norm and are usually acutely aware of where they sit musically in the mix. One example I can give you, was the late, great Kenny Craddock, former MD for Van Morrison, who amongst his credits used to play with Ginger Bakers Airforce. I worked with him on many occasions and he truly new exactly what he was doing.
-
Great advice all!