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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Joey Breaux on May 25, 2014, 06:47:27 PM
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My Mixwiz gen 1 is still doing its job after 10 years. Not even a hiccup. But lately we've been playing some bigger venues and have had to hire pro PA. I can't help but drool over their digital boards.
I don't have a problem with buying leading-edge technology. But I do not buy bleeding-edge tech. As quickly as technology is evolving right now I'm willing to bet that within a couple of years we'll have wireless PA's. My guess is it'll be encompassed around a central wifi network incorporated into the mixer. Each component, ip address, will show up on the mixer.
Am I far off?
Joey
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My Mixwiz gen 1 is still doing its job after 10 years. Not even a hiccup. But lately we've been playing some bigger venues and have had to hire pro PA. I can't help but drool over their digital boards.
I don't have a problem with buying leading-edge technology. But I do not buy bleeding-edge tech. As quickly as technology is evolving right now I'm willing to bet that within a couple of years we'll have wireless PA's. My guess is it'll be encompassed around a central wifi network incorporated into the mixer. Each component, ip address, will show up on the mixer.
Am I far off?
Joey
Not totally... but subtract the wireless thing. You already can interconnect consoles with processing/amplifiers via IP address. However, you gain no real benefit going wireless vs what you lose in reliability.
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My Mixwiz gen 1 is still doing its job after 10 years. Not even a hiccup. But lately we've been playing some bigger venues and have had to hire pro PA. I can't help but drool over their digital boards.
I don't have a problem with buying leading-edge technology. But I do not buy bleeding-edge tech. As quickly as technology is evolving right now I'm willing to bet that within a couple of years we'll have wireless PA's. My guess is it'll be encompassed around a central wifi network incorporated into the mixer. Each component, ip address, will show up on the mixer.
Am I far off?
Joey
You need to look at it according to what capabilities if offers over what you have now. IMO it is a no brainer in 2014.... Newer analog stuff is getting worse and new digital stuff gives you big time capabilities, even if you don t use them right away. Like most things, you don't plan extravagant routing setups with you analog setup, because you can't do it anyway! If you have the ability, you can be creative in good ways, many of which enhance the repeatability of setups which means you can experiment and not get stuck.
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What's your budget? Do you need more channels?
As far as the wireless thing, we're still wired; Behringer, Presonus and Line 6 are trying the AIO systems by linking speakers with mixers using ethernet.
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Now that the entry level digital is gaining traction, especially surface less solutions like the x32 rack and the Mackie DL1604, and mixing on iPad works well. I think the next will be an extension of the rack unit staying on stage and the FOH console just morphing into a control surface that talks back to the stage via wireless or wifi.
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" I'm willing to bet that within a couple of years we'll have wireless PA's."
maybe for control, but for sending signal, no way...you are competing with cell phones, and other things in the 2.4 and 5ghz bands, along with 700mhz and I bet in the next few years 600mhz bands...i am not of fan of the 2.4 and 5.0 ghz mics, etc. as I have talked to too many folks that have issues with them, especially in high/saturated wifi areas...
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I have to agree. Wireless control will get better and better - but the loss of the 600 MHz and etc, the RF spectrum is going to too wild for that sort of thing. Not to say that it's impossible - it's just not going to be worth the trouble or efficient to use RF in that manor.
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Now that the entry level digital is gaining traction, especially surface less solutions like the x32 rack and the Mackie DL1604, and mixing on iPad works well. I think the next will be an extension of the rack unit staying on stage and the FOH console just morphing into a control surface that talks back to the stage via wireless or wifi.
Yes. This would have been my preference prior to actually going digital, because I'd like to see all my controls at one time, but everyone working with MI equipment is already accustomed to using something as small as an Ipad that they can carry around in one hand. I doubt many of us would actually switch back to having a console size unit that we need to plant on a table even if it is wireless. I don't usually have a place to sit with my Ipad let alone a console. And I'm still going to want my Ipad for setting monitor mixes.
At the Pro level,where you are actually going to get a dedicated FOH location I'd think it would be too risky perhaps to justify going 100% wireless just to not run a couple of Cat5 cables.
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Yes. This would have been my preference prior to actually going digital, because I'd like to see all my controls at one time, but everyone working with MI equipment is already accustomed to using something as small as an Ipad that they can carry around in one hand. I doubt many of us would actually switch back to having a console size unit that we need to plant on a table even if it is wireless. I don't usually have a place to sit with my Ipad let alone a console. And I'm still going to want my Ipad for setting monitor mixes.
At the Pro level,where you are actually going to get a dedicated FOH location I'd think it would be too risky perhaps to justify going 100% wireless just to not run a couple of Cat5 cables.
This hits the nail on the head.
Also, there will always be improvements in equipment. I would ( and did ) ditch the mix wiz now and enjoy the step change in sound and features now.
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If it works, don't replace it until you have to.
If you want to have fun with a digital board, rent one for a gig now and then. You'll get to learn which ones you like (or don't like) without the burden of owning one.
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There will always be something newer and better coming out a few years from now.
The current crop of low cost digital consoles are wonderful tools, and the price point that they are at makes them affordable, even if you have to replace it in a few years when the new stuff comes out.
What you will see going away very quickly is the concept of an analog snake run back to FOH. The next step (which some systems already offer) is that no audio is actually run to FOH. This way, if the cable gets cut, the system keeps on going.
The link to FOH could be wireless with this sort of system, however, wireless = more chances of interference than a wired system. In a low demand situation, it's awesome, but bigger shows will still be connected via a wire for some time.
If your mix whiz is still doing its job (and it probably will for a very long time) then there's no real rush to replace it. Moving into one of the entry level digital boards would give you access to the bells and whistles, making mixing easier. However, if you're just doing sound for your own band, the digital board isn't going to make you any more money.
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Yes. This would have been my preference prior to actually going digital, because I'd like to see all my controls at one time, but everyone working with MI equipment is already accustomed to using something as small as an Ipad that they can carry around in one hand. I doubt many of us would actually switch back to having a console size unit that we need to plant on a table even if it is wireless. I don't usually have a place to sit with my Ipad let alone a console. And I'm still going to want my Ipad for setting monitor mixes.
I think this will be the trend for bands with BE's, but for [many?] bands that mix from stage (like my current one does) the comfort level with a X32 rack/Ipad configuration simply isn't there yet. That may change over time... And yes, we do gigs with venue provided FOH/BE about 30% of the time, but the fear of not being able to go "grab a fader" when using our own PA is a big deal for them. They DID sell the current Mackie mixer and have an X32 Producer on order, so the next big advantage is being able to get a baseline FOH mix with the iPad, from OUT front! vs. relying on one of the entourage for mix feedback. ..
And yes, many places we play do NOT want an FOH position, do NOT have the space, and really don't care if we have a BE or not. It saves on our co$t$, but as a regional band, we are going to have to address the "BE" aspect before too much longer, even if it's merely someone with an iPad pushing faders... :)
Baby steps..
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I am 80% sure I want the A&H QU16. Can it interface with more than one iPad set the same time.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I am 80% sure I want the A&H QU16. Can it interface with more than one iPad set the same time.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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My primary attraction to digital boards is processing consolidation done cheap.
I have a MixWiz and can't imagine I'll throw it overboard anytime soon.
But I have to say, that as digital boards costing around $2500 or less keep entering the market, with compression, delay, crossover, FX, gating and EQ on every channel, I am tempted because piecemealing all that is costly and I would have to guess how many compression channels I really need, etc.
So what I would love to see is a series of digital processing units that give you say, 16, 24, 32 or 48 channels of dsp that can be added via inserts along with its own insert, than can be added to the analog board of your choice. I understand you wouldn't have recallable subgroups and the like in this unit, but frankly, I don't need those. Let's say a 16 channel version costs me $1000 to $1500. I get to keep the familiarity, reliability and high quality of the analog board I love, plus gain all that DSP much cheaper than multiple units that take up lots of physical space and add to weight.
The form factor I'm envisioning would be a 1u rackmount with a wifi interface to the iPad, but just like the x32, it could be offered in that compact package or ones with more of a surface.
To my way of thinking, this is similar to a loudspeaker management system like the DriveRack where you have multiple digital processing functions in one box, separate from the speakers or amps whereas an active box would have it all combined into one box. Sometimes you just love your passive speakers and want all the processing to be small and inexpensive.
If a full on x32 can be had for what? a little over $2000 IIRC? then a subset of its abilities should cost less.
So they can keep tempting me with entry level digital, but THAT is what I would want.
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My primary attraction to digital boards is processing consolidation done cheap.
I have a MixWiz and can't imagine I'll throw it overboard anytime soon.
But I have to say, that as digital boards costing around $2500 or less keep entering the market, with compression, delay, crossover, FX, gating and EQ on every channel, I am tempted because piecemealing all that is costly and I would have to guess how many compression channels I really need, etc.
So what I would love to see is a series of digital processing units that give you say, 16, 24, 32 or 48 channels of dsp that can be added via inserts along with its own insert, than can be added to the analog board of your choice. I understand you wouldn't have recallable subgroups and the like in this unit, but frankly, I don't need those. Let's say a 16 channel version costs me $1000 to $1500. I get to keep the familiarity, reliability and high quality of the analog board I love, plus gain all that DSP much cheaper than multiple units that take up lots of physical space and add to weight.
The form factor I'm envisioning would be a 1u rackmount with a wifi interface to the iPad, but just like the x32, it could be offered in that compact package or ones with more of a surface.
To my way of thinking, this is similar to a loudspeaker management system like the DriveRack where you have multiple digital processing functions in one box, separate from the speakers or amps whereas an active box would have it all combined into one box. Sometimes you just love your passive speakers and want all the processing to be small and inexpensive.
If a full on x32 can be had for what? a little over $2000 IIRC? then a subset of its abilities should cost less.
So they can keep tempting me with entry level digital, but THAT is what I would want.
All that sounds good in theory but I doubt that a manufacturer could make such a box that was more cost effective than something like the x32 Rack and it's a full mixer. IMO such a setup would be over complicated; you'd need a computer or tablet to control the added DSP. IMO it also eliminates one of the best parts of a digital mixer setup, the digital snake. I long for the day I get a digital board and snake so I don't have to drag my analog one out again. In reality I'll probably get something like the x32 Rack and mix from a laptop + iPad and maybe a MIDI fader bank or two. I think Behringer should start selling a small wireless x32 Rack control surface with maybe 8 motorized and some relevant buttons/encoders; that plus a laptop or iPad would make a pretty sweet, wireless, FOH setup.
But like you I'm probably dreaming.
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If a full on x32 can be had for what? a little over $2000 IIRC? then a subset of its abilities should cost less.
No. As a specialty item with limited marketability to a few impractical dreamers it would be more expensive. You're completely missing the economy of scale.
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No. As a specialty item with limited marketability to a few impractical dreamers it would be more expensive. You're completely missing the economy of scale.
Although I understand economies of scale, you're right. I didn't consider the possibility that my situation and desired solution might not be common enough to warrant a market.
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Although I understand economies of scale, you're right. I didn't consider the possibility that my situation and desired solution might not be common enough to warrant a market.
The Qu-16 really is a digital MixWiz. You get all the processing you'll ever want and not have to deal with an insert kludge involving multiple AD/DA conversions. The big difference is that now you'll have "virtual" cabling. I felt pretty much the same but sold my trusty 16:2dx with no qualms once I grokked the Qu-16. It took an hour or so.
Not looking back....
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Mixing with an iPad is really nice. Controlling lights with an iPad is nice as well.
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All that sounds good in theory but I doubt that a manufacturer could make such a box that was more cost effective than something like the x32 Rack and it's a full mixer. IMO such a setup would be over complicated; you'd need a computer or tablet to control the added DSP. IMO it also eliminates one of the best parts of a digital mixer setup, the digital snake. I long for the day I get a digital board and snake so I don't have to drag my analog one out again. In reality I'll probably get something like the x32 Rack and mix from a laptop + iPad and maybe a MIDI fader bank or two. I think Behringer should start selling a small wireless x32 Rack control surface with maybe 8 motorized and some relevant buttons/encoders; that plus a laptop or iPad would make a pretty sweet, wireless, FOH setup.
But like you I'm probably dreaming.
Behringer has something like that in the works and is possible to a degree now. X32 Core, S16's and the new X- Touch
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Behringer has something like that in the works and is possible to a degree now. X32 Core, S16's and the new X- Touch
That's pretty nice looking. One of those plus a laptop or iPad would make for a slick x32 Rack FOH. Especially if it could be connected wirelessly somehow.
Sent from my Moto X (XT1053) using Tapatalk Pro
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Well having on board ethernet, you could use routers to bridge between FOH and RACK to control...should be fairly straight forward...
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Mixing with an iPad is really nice. Controlling lights with an iPad is nice as well.
While I only own the DL1608,which is 100% Ipad only controlled, I have the apps installed on my Ipad for all the other digital mixers I could find and I played around with them as much as I could given I don't have the boards and while the interfaces are different I found them all to be quite user friendly. Seems once you're digital switching boards should be easy.
My next ditigal board has to have 3 major features:
1. Ability to adjust pre-amp settings from Ipad (and save them)
2. 100% functionality available thru the Ipad itself.
3. Ability to run at least 2 Ipads simultaneously. Right now we have 1 person on stage beside the talent doing monitors and another in the house doing mains for sound check. Can't give that up.
I'm not sure every board can do number 2 and I know some cannot do number 3. Some of the apps I have seem to be missing some things that perhaps are only on the physical board. Those are deal breakers for me.
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I'm not sure every board can do number 2
I've had 2 different digital board models do a number 2 on me very well....and at the most inopportune time!!!!
Back to your regularly scheduled program.....
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My primary attraction to digital boards is processing consolidation done cheap.
I have a MixWiz and can't imagine I'll throw it overboard anytime soon.
But I have to say, that as digital boards costing around $2500 or less keep entering the market, with compression, delay, crossover, FX, gating and EQ on every channel, I am tempted because piecemealing all that is costly and I would have to guess how many compression channels I really need, etc.
So what I would love to see is a series of digital processing units that give you say, 16, 24, 32 or 48 channels of dsp that can be added via inserts along with its own insert, than can be added to the analog board of your choice. I understand you wouldn't have recallable subgroups and the like in this unit, but frankly, I don't need those. Let's say a 16 channel version costs me $1000 to $1500. I get to keep the familiarity, reliability and high quality of the analog board I love, plus gain all that DSP much cheaper than multiple units that take up lots of physical space and add to weight.
The form factor I'm envisioning would be a 1u rackmount with a wifi interface to the iPad, but just like the x32, it could be offered in that compact package or ones with more of a surface.
To my way of thinking, this is similar to a loudspeaker management system like the DriveRack where you have multiple digital processing functions in one box, separate from the speakers or amps whereas an active box would have it all combined into one box. Sometimes you just love your passive speakers and want all the processing to be small and inexpensive.
If a full on x32 can be had for what? a little over $2000 IIRC? then a subset of its abilities should cost less.
So they can keep tempting me with entry level digital, but THAT is what I would want.
The X32 Rack sells list for $1200.00. I suspect you could get it close to $1K if you ask around (as soon as the shortage of them recedes ;) ). It is a 3u unit, but has lots of physical connections on the back and a full LCD and menu control knobs on the front.
There are lots of people that are moving to this setup if they operate a small rig. I know of lots of others that are incorporating the X32 Rack as their stage boxes using a full X32 as the FOH mixer. This way they not only have stage boxes, but redundant backup mixers as well.
If you are currently using the DL1608, the X32 Rack would be a big step up in features and sound quality (in particular, the verbs on the X32 are much nicer).
I know that many say you don't need all those features; however, I have found that once you have them, you would be surprised at how many of them you find a use for!
The biggest difference I have found with my band is the ability to do a virtual sound check using multi-track recordings.
We setup and do a sound check recording on stage. I go into the routing page on my iPad and switch from local inputs to card inputs. I press "play" on my laptop with Reaper and we all go out front.
We can isolate single channels, change efx sends, modify gate and compression thresholds, change the mix around, etc. all with a single recorded track.
I have been surprised at how good of a mix we can get like this.
The Qu-16 even has this ability built in without the need for the laptop as a recording device (straight to a USB hard disk). While I wouldn't give up the many other features my X32 Rack has over the Qu-16, I do envy this feature ;)
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While I only own the DL1608,which is 100% Ipad only controlled, I have the apps installed on my Ipad for all the other digital mixers I could find and I played around with them as much as I could given I don't have the boards and while the interfaces are different I found them all to be quite user friendly. Seems once you're digital switching boards should be easy.
My next ditigal board has to have 3 major features:
1. Ability to adjust pre-amp settings from Ipad (and save them)
2. 100% functionality available thru the Ipad itself.
3. Ability to run at least 2 Ipads simultaneously. Right now we have 1 person on stage beside the talent doing monitors and another in the house doing mains for sound check. Can't give that up.
I'm not sure every board can do number 2 and I know some cannot do number 3. Some of the apps I have seem to be missing some things that perhaps are only on the physical board. Those are deal breakers for me.
Do you really need 100% per #2 ?
I have 2 pretty high end (compared to Mackie) desks and while the apps have what is needed for mixing, there are certain configuration settings you have to do on the mixer itself. I suggest you think about what you think 100% means.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Do you really need 100% per #2 ?
I have 2 pretty high end (compared to Mackie) desks and while the apps have what is needed for mixing, there are certain configuration settings you have to do on the mixer itself. I suggest you think about what you think 100% means.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Rob, you have a GLD, right?
I mix in a church where the mix at FOH isn't quite representative of the room so I spend a good deal of time sitting out in front of FOH during sound check if I'm trying to dial in something like a multi-band comp. The GLD iPad app doesn't have access to the FX engines so I need to haul out the laptop for that.