ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Steve O'Connor on July 17, 2014, 05:49:49 AM
-
Hi Folks,
I'll apologize in advance for yet another Digital Mixer question.
If you'd rather not read the long winded post below I'll summarize:
I'm considering a digital mixer in the <€2500 budget 2nd hand bracket,
Must have excellent iPad app Control,
At least 16 Mic ins, 4 Mono outs (+ LR out.) and actual control surface is essential,
Doesn't have to have 16 input faders, I'm fine with layers.
Compact (A&H QU24 would be Max size I'd consider),
No Behringer.
Long Term Proven Reliability +++,
No riders to fulfill,
Multitrack recording and Digital snake not of concern,
DCAs would be nice but never needed them on the 01v96 so not a big deal.
LS9s are currently selling locally 2nd hand for slightly less than stated budget, would I be mad to/(not to) buy one?
Thanks,
For those who would like the long winded version see below:
Currently My most frequent FOH sound gigs are mixing Live sound with less than 16 used channels and Have not yet done a gig that needed more than 4 monitor mixes.
I would like a desk with more than 16 or easily expandable to 24 input channels.
Digital snake isn't of interest to me (Or should I say I am not interested enough to spent extra for one).
Most frequent Gigs could range from Traditional Irish music to full on metal. I do the odd small corporate gigs needing no more than 10 -12 channels.
I also play guitar and mix from stage at least once per week in a 4 piece covers band (4 piece Kit, Bass, Guitar and 3 vocals) but that is currently covered by an 01v96i which I'm very happy with both in sound quality and I've become very fluent with operating it.
I Just recently sold my only other mixer, a 01v96v2 for about as much as I believe that I could have got for it (Had I held out for more money I believe I'd be waiting at least another year or 2 before it would have sold).
I would like to replace this mixer with something that is a step up from it in suitability for My stated purposes.
Budget would be €2500 and would be aiming for 2nd hand items.
One main strong point that this mixer must have is it's iPad/Tablet mixing functionality.
I Have downloaded and experimented in offline mode with the following apps:
Soundcraft ViSi Remote
Mackie Master Fader
A&H QU-Pad
X32-mix
Yamaha LS9 Stagemix.
Of the 5 I have played around with the 2 that stood out as feeling solid and most responsive were the X32-edit and Ls9 stagemix.
Between those 2 the X32 appears to have full control of every feature of the desk, But the LS9 Stagemix app by far was easiest to navigate around and operate, It had everything I needed for my own workflow and style of mixing.
To Be honest I'm not comfortable with buying anything from Behringer, It's by far the most Full featured piece of Kit but it is what it is IMO.
The Mackie while I've mixed several gigs with a DL1608 and was fine for low channel count mixes but for the price I'd sooner the New SM Pro Audio mixers if I were going down the No Control surface route, The Mackie App wasn't too bad but a little bit sluggish at times, and the desk as a whole is definitely not a step up from the 01v96.
That Leaves:
Soundcraft Expression 1 or 2,
Allen Heath Qu 16 or 24
LS9-16 (+ Adat card and Preamps that I already own to allow expansion to 32 Channels).
All of which are currently available locally 2nd hand for similar prices below my stated budget.
The Soundcraft Expression series:
Downsides: EQ has only 2 bands of fully parametric EQ: For some Rock/Metal gigs it's basically damage control in smaller venues this would be a limiting factor for me. Has anybody experience with this side of the Soundcraft Expression?
I found the iPad app to be very cluttered from an information gathering Point of view.
Not that common this side of the pond.
Pros:Very Flexible routing,
Every on-the-fly parameter (IMO) has a dedicated encoder on the surface.
Fader Glow,
I like how the parameters are tweaked on the iPad app
Allen Heath QU 16 and 24:
Downsides: for me is it is More limited when it comes to internal patching/routing, Limited to 4 mono output mixes, and 3 stereo mixes, (QU 24 has additional 2 stereo matrix and 2 stereo group outs).
Pros:Pretty good iPad app.
Multitrack recording direct to USB.
Pretty common here.
Yamaha LS9:
Downsides: Older technology compared to the newer offerings. May still be difficult to sell in 5 years time.
Pro: By Far my favorite iPad App.
It's A very well known piece of gear and proven in the field both in function and reliability.
I'm already familiar with Yamaha's workflow, naming schemes.
Hope I've given enough information and thanks very much for any insight.
-
My choice when at this point became the Soundcraft, which may or may not have as many features as the other boards, depending on what you call a feature. The Expression is certainly the most expandable of the bunch, the quality is very high, and the newly released Ipad app 2.x, which you may not have seen, is IMO equal to or better than the rest.
http://www.soundcraft.com/apps/visi-remote.aspx
-
My choice when at this point became the Soundcraft, which may or may not have as many features as the other boards, depending on what you call a feature. The Expression is certainly the most expandable of the bunch, the quality is very high, and the newly released Ipad app 2.x, which you may not have seen, is IMO equal to or better than the rest.
http://www.soundcraft.com/apps/visi-remote.aspx
Thanks Bob,
I agree what I value as a feature and you value as a feature may be very different So I do accept that.
Am I right that it is the Expression that you have?
Do you find the low and high eq bands as shelf only limiting in how you mix in any way? It's no different than most analog desks with 4 band of Eq so I suppose I've been spoiled too long with full parametrics on most digital boards.
That is indeed the newest version of the app that I downloaded.
-
I'll throw this out there...
"Downsides: for me is it is More limited when it comes to internal patching/routing"
If you typically do 16 or less channels, why do you need exotic routing? Basically, in live sound, the simpler the better, in->mix->out, l/r, mix1, mix2, mix3... no head scratching when a sig doesn't appear at an output in the heat of battle.
On the 01v96 you HAD to setup routing, flexible yes, but mostly, in my experience for live sound, I had 2 basic global routing, one for basic 12 in, and the other for using an expander with fiber, I had one for a bluegrass band that wanted 7 mixes, but even with the QU you don't have to set it up, its already there.
Dig boards w/o needing to setup exotic routing, well, I see as a benefit now. Although, the QU for example does have lots of routing available, being able to pick off the sig pre and post almost everywhere, add the groups and matrixes, all the mixes, there are plenty of straight forward routing options.
Mike
-
Hi Mike,
Very good point,
There have been gigs where I've needed to do some unusual routing that the gig needed, Granted It's a rare occurrence though, I'll still have the 01v96i so that can take care of those gigs if it needed to.
I'm not afraid of the versatility and learning curve that comes with a more complicated internal setup, I'm very much of the thinking that i'd rather be looking at something than looking for it.
Thanks
-
Thanks Bob,
I agree what I value as a feature and you value as a feature may be very different So I do accept that.
Am I right that it is the Expression that you have?
Do you find the low and high eq bands as shelf only limiting in how you mix in any way? It's no different than most analog desks with 4 band of Eq so I suppose I've been spoiled too long with full parametrics on most digital boards.
That is indeed the newest version of the app that I downloaded.
Yes, I own an Expression. I have not needed or wished for anything more in the 4 band EQ than what's available. As a matter of fact, I was coming off of an APB Pro House when I bought the board. I wanted to move to a small format digital board and after almost 2 years of poking and prodding bought the Expression shortly after it was released. I am anal about tone and didn't want to make the move, had heard the rest of the crowd, then heard the Expression and was amazed at how good it sounded when compared to it's big brothers right up into the Vi line. When I unpacked the board and performed the initial setup all of my concerns were addressed and I was sure I had chosen correctly. My biggest surprise was that the board sounded as good or better than the APB even before I had touched a single knob.
You would soon appreciate the 16 outputs and expansion capability, keeping in mind the board supports 66 channels to mix out of the box. As for features, the Expression has features other boards don't, and vice versa.
-
Bob's right about the new Ipad app for the expression. Huge improvement!
-
Hi Folks,
I'll apologize in advance for yet another Digital Mixer question.
If you'd rather not read the long winded post below I'll summarize:
I'm considering a digital mixer in the <€2500 budget 2nd hand bracket,
Must have excellent iPad app Control,
At least 16 Mic ins, 4 Mono outs (+ LR out.) and actual control surface is essential,
Doesn't have to have 16 input faders, I'm fine with layers.
Compact (A&H QU24 would be Max size I'd consider),
No Behringer.
Long Term Proven Reliability +++,
No riders to fulfill,
Multitrack recording and Digital snake not of concern,
DCAs would be nice but never needed them on the 01v96 so not a big deal.
LS9s are currently selling locally 2nd hand for slightly less than stated budget, would I be mad to/(not to) buy one?
Thanks,
For those who would like the long winded version see below:
Currently My most frequent FOH sound gigs are mixing Live sound with less than 16 used channels and Have not yet done a gig that needed more than 4 monitor mixes.
I would like a desk with more than 16 or easily expandable to 24 input channels.
Digital snake isn't of interest to me (Or should I say I am not interested enough to spent extra for one).
Most frequent Gigs could range from Traditional Irish music to full on metal. I do the odd small corporate gigs needing no more than 10 -12 channels.
I also play guitar and mix from stage at least once per week in a 4 piece covers band (4 piece Kit, Bass, Guitar and 3 vocals) but that is currently covered by an 01v96i which I'm very happy with both in sound quality and I've become very fluent with operating it.
I Just recently sold my only other mixer, a 01v96v2 for about as much as I believe that I could have got for it (Had I held out for more money I believe I'd be waiting at least another year or 2 before it would have sold).
I would like to replace this mixer with something that is a step up from it in suitability for My stated purposes.
Budget would be €2500 and would be aiming for 2nd hand items.
One main strong point that this mixer must have is it's iPad/Tablet mixing functionality.
I Have downloaded and experimented in offline mode with the following apps:
Soundcraft ViSi Remote
Mackie Master Fader
A&H QU-Pad
X32-mix
Yamaha LS9 Stagemix.
Of the 5 I have played around with the 2 that stood out as feeling solid and most responsive were the X32-edit and Ls9 stagemix.
Between those 2 the X32 appears to have full control of every feature of the desk, But the LS9 Stagemix app by far was easiest to navigate around and operate, It had everything I needed for my own workflow and style of mixing.
To Be honest I'm not comfortable with buying anything from Behringer, It's by far the most Full featured piece of Kit but it is what it is IMO.
The Mackie while I've mixed several gigs with a DL1608 and was fine for low channel count mixes but for the price I'd sooner the New SM Pro Audio mixers if I were going down the No Control surface route, The Mackie App wasn't too bad but a little bit sluggish at times, and the desk as a whole is definitely not a step up from the 01v96.
That Leaves:
Soundcraft Expression 1 or 2,
Allen Heath Qu 16 or 24
LS9-16 (+ Adat card and Preamps that I already own to allow expansion to 32 Channels).
All of which are currently available locally 2nd hand for similar prices below my stated budget.
The Soundcraft Expression series:
Downsides: EQ has only 2 bands of fully parametric EQ: For some Rock/Metal gigs it's basically damage control in smaller venues this would be a limiting factor for me. Has anybody experience with this side of the Soundcraft Expression?
I found the iPad app to be very cluttered from an information gathering Point of view.
Not that common this side of the pond.
Pros:Very Flexible routing,
Every on-the-fly parameter (IMO) has a dedicated encoder on the surface.
Fader Glow,
I like how the parameters are tweaked on the iPad app
Allen Heath QU 16 and 24:
Downsides: for me is it is More limited when it comes to internal patching/routing, Limited to 4 mono output mixes, and 3 stereo mixes, (QU 24 has additional 2 stereo matrix and 2 stereo group outs).
Pros:Pretty good iPad app.
Multitrack recording direct to USB.
Pretty common here.
Yamaha LS9:
Downsides: Older technology compared to the newer offerings. May still be difficult to sell in 5 years time.
Pro: By Far my favorite iPad App.
It's A very well known piece of gear and proven in the field both in function and reliability.
I'm already familiar with Yamaha's workflow, naming schemes.
Hope I've given enough information and thanks very much for any insight.
My vote would be for the Expression 1 or Presonus SL1642. The EQ on the Expression while limited, still does a very good job. I owned all three models of Presonus mixers and love them. However I did sell one, the SL1642 and replaced it with an Expression 2, the aux count on the SL16 was a bit limiting for what I do. I sold my LS9-32 last month, its workflow was way to dated and expensive by today's standards. Liked the IPAD app on the Presonus and just starting to use the app for the Soundcraft, which I'm okay with too.
I really, really like the Expression. I bought a Stage Box mini-32, now my SC-E2 is easily a 32 channel mixer in a nice footprint. The layout of the Expression is outstanding IMO for its price point.
-
Yes, I own an Expression.
DOH! I finally put 2 and 2 together... Harman owns both Soundcraft AND JBL... LOL make sense now.
-
Thanks for all the input so far,
I Have used the Presonus desks many times before but not the ipad app, A few things against the Presonus for Me are:
1. It requires Firewire, iPad and iPod are the only apple products I ever want to own.
2. No motorized faders, The fader locate idea is great and all but for me I prefer sends on faders and an instant fader recall.
3. I've A/B'd the 16.0.2 against a 01v96vcm EQ flat, processing and effects off, into a Yamaha dsr112 and the 01v96 did it for me and those present in regards to sound quality.
I believe the newer AI versions don't require it to be connected to a laptop with firewire or a mac to use the iPad app though.
In Regards to the Soundcraft iPad app:
It was the latest version of it that I had downloaded, so if it is a huge improvement over the previous version I dread the thought of the old version. Keep in mind I have only used it in offline mode so there may be display and workflow differences versus online mode but I would have assumed a demo mode would attempt to be more appealing?
Has anybody experience mixing FOH with any of the mentioned iPad apps? I would be most interested to hear from those with experience with LS9 Stagemix and The Soundcraft and the A&H Apps.
Thanks again All.
-
Another item to consider is Yamaha's pledge to support its products for I believe 7 years after official delisting from currently for sale product. Not from when initially offered, 7 years from date from the last one sold.
I somehow doubt the others up for consideration will have that behind them.
If you were considering the LS9 as a used piece I wouldnt be considering any possible resale value beyond scrap value, you would likely be flipping it into the tip at the end.
-
Thanks for all the input so far,
--snip--
Has anybody experience mixing FOH with any of the mentioned iPad apps? I would be most interested to hear from those with experience with LS9 Stagemix and The Soundcraft and the A&H Apps.
I've mixed FOH quite a bit with the Presonus iPad and am very comfortable with that but agree with your stated deficiencies of the SL mixers as compared to other offerings these days and so just bought the Compact B-board. I do work with a fellow that lives on a LS9-16 but he only uses the Apps (Airfader included) to dial-in/ring-out monitors.
-
Based on OPs criteria I say Expression 1, open that criteria up a bit and I change my answer to X32 compact.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
New firmware came out very recently for the A&H Qu series. It adds more flexibility. I like them, and to my ear they sound better than an LS9. I consider the LS9 to be fairly old by digital standards now. It was good when it first came out, but that was nearly 10 years ago. I've always thought they sounded a tad harsh, but that could just be me. I prefer a warmer sound, which is why I like the Qu. I should warn you, I also use an iLive every week so I may be a tad biased towards A&H!
Cheers,
Michael
-
DOH! I finally put 2 and 2 together... Harman owns both Soundcraft AND JBL... LOL make sense now.
;)
-
I have Yamaha M7's, LS9's, Presonus 16 and 24 Channel non AI and 32 channel AI mixers in my inventory.
My take is the Yamaha's get the most requests. Not the greatest for IPad use.
The Presonus non ai mixers work great via IPad but you doo need a connection to a computer via firewire.
The newer Presonus AI eliminates the need for an external computer and works very well via IPad.
I mix shows on all of these mixers regularly. They all sound good and have enough capability for everything I need.
Since the OP is talking about a 16 channel mixer and he has set up a price point he wants to work with.
Personally the Presonus does what I need and does it well. It has much more capabilities that some of the other boards listed by the OP.
I happen to like the fact it has no moving faders.
I have replaced all the fader banks on my Yamaha's at least once. I have not needed to replace faders any on the Presonus mixers.
Also I have my board on stage and have my monitor guy mix monitors on it. No moving faders to confuse issues when I switch things on the IPad.
That's my story and I'm stickin to it...:)
Bob Cap
Advanced Audio Inc.
Gilbert, MN
-
Based on OPs criteria I say Expression 1, open that criteria up a bit and I change my answer to X32 compact.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would go with the QU, but I don't understand the OP's objection to the X32 series.
"To Be honest I'm not comfortable with buying anything from Behringer, It's by far the most Full featured piece of Kit but it is what it is IMO".
I don't do the SR provider role much these days, but the X32 is NOT the Behringer of old. Price point/feature set gives it the edge (IMHO) over the other choices.. and we (band) have an X32 Producer and Presonus 16.4.2.
Our X32 just arrived (will probably use next weekends gigs) after we went thru the same questions/analysis the OP is asking. Our needs are are very similar - FOH mixing from stage, with 5 IEM mixes. We went with the Producer because the band wanted FADERS to grab - otherwise X32 Rack would have been ideal, but they weren't comfortable with iPad access. Still pretty old school there.
The X32 will be in a split rig.. so we can take it + IEM's (same rack case) to "house-provided-PA" gigs, and leave the amps at home. That's about 30% of our gigs.
For the rest, we put mixer case on top of/near amp rack.. run 2 XLR's from X32 into the DSP.. and power up!
-
I don't like mixing with that little tiny screen on the LS9.
I have a Soundcraft Performer. It's rare I need to get into the screen. Faders and knobs for me.
-
LS9's I find a pain in the butt. I band of eq that you have to constantly step through, same goes for compressor and gate settings and that "clunky" jobs system for setting up. I like to be able to work fast and the LS9 doesn't cut it on that front.
I used a Soundcraft Si Performer and was impressed with that, easy to use and decent functionality, good effects, compressors, etc.
The X32 I find similar to the LS9 in many respects in that it isn't that fast to use, however, it costs a lot less so I am more forgiving of it's shortcomings.
The QU range from A&H, much like the Soundcraft is fairly user friendly, though I've only looked at it on the trade stand, seems a logical system to use.
Presonus stuff again is fairly well laid out, though I think it's a much stiffer sector now with the arrival of the QU and the Si Expression.
I think Bob pretty much nailed it on the head in his previous posts.
-
Having used almost all of the mixers mentioned, I put my vote in for the LS9 and or the Behringer X32. I own an X32 rack and it paid for itself in the first 2 months!
Honestly the only way to answer your question is for you to decide what you value in a system. I got the LS9 because it was ( at the time ) the most versatile and accepted board. I recently picked up the X32 rack because I wanted a highly versatile, affordable stealth rig for bar gigs and weddings.
-
I've mixed FOH quite a bit with the Presonus iPad and am very comfortable with that but agree with your stated deficiencies of the SL mixers as compared to other offerings these days and so just bought the Compact B-board. I do work with a fellow that lives on a LS9-16 but he only uses the Apps (Airfader included) to dial-in/ring-out monitors.
Have to mix next week on the Presonus... Dreading it. First...the FX suck.
Second, I can't really 'mix' in an app where I can't adjust channels and FX returns at the same time. I can set the X32 up so I can adjust all kinds of stuff... At once...in the DCA page.
The Presonus is OK if you 'set' a mix and don't move anything drastically. I personally find those kind of 'mixes' get boring a ways into the second song...if not sooner.
-
Of the ones I have used this is my experience...
Qu - simple straight forward design. The 16 channel version would be my first choice for that size console
X32 - larger, easy to mix on, lots of features. Great console and I would not hesitate to use it. I own one.
Soundcraft ex a I didn't care for it, felt cheap plastic. Sound quality an features were decent on par with the rest of this category, but still would not be my first choice.
Presonus certainly workable but I can't Stand the interface
-
How does 1/8" aluminum feel like cheap plastic ???
-
How does 1/8" aluminum feel like cheap plastic ???
Sorry I wasn't clear . I was referring to the plastic knobs that to me feel cheap. No saying they are, just how they felt to me.
Again all of them are capable mixers, but in my opinion the difference is more personal preference over quality and features. They each have their own workflow so pick the one that makes sense to you and use it.
-
Sorry I wasn't clear . I was referring to the plastic knobs that to me feel cheap. No saying they are, just how they felt to me.
I used an SI compact and then the SI expression, and I'd agree with your assessment that the new board feels 'cheap' in comparison. Of course, the price was half of the original.
The push buttons on the full size X32 have a cheap feel to them, and the fader knobs are a little cheap. The rotary knobs are ok. Not awesome, but not cheap. Interestingly, the X32 Compact uses rubber push buttons instead of hard plastic. They actually feel a bit nicer to me.
The 'No Behringer' rule should be replaced with a 'no junk' rule. While some (most) behringer stuff is utter crap, the X32 is a new chapter. If you would have told me 5 years ago that all of my mixer inventory would be behringer, I'd say you are crazy. Well, I'm one board away from that happening. (still have a Presonus 16.0.2 in use, and every time I use it I wish it was an X32.)
-
Sorry I wasn't clear . I was referring to the plastic knobs that to me feel cheap. No saying they are, just how they felt to me.
Again all of them are capable mixers, but in my opinion the difference is more personal preference over quality and features. They each have their own workflow so pick the one that makes sense to you and use it.
Doesn't a large majority of consoles have plastic knobs?
-
Thanks very much for the input guys it's all been very helpful.
The arguments made against the ls9 are all excellent points but I believe from my own needs and environment that the ls9 is still the most suitable. Ive used many yamaha products over the years and have had no bad experiences so that alone puts my mind at ease from a longevity point of view. That ticks the reliability box.
Functionally it can do all I need, separate high pass and 4 fully parametric bands of eq is essential. Expanders on vocal mics are a very nice bonus for the loud stages.
The iPad mixing capability was also a biggie and while i intend using it for gigs when a proper foh position is not possible , I also intend using it in conjunction with the surface mounted to a stand. So while the ls9 isn't as user friendly a surface as the A&H or soundcraft the iPad app I feel is far superior in form and function to the others that I have trialled, excellent layout, eq,levels,sends,dynamics are all incredibly easy to manipulate. I found the other apps very cumbersome on some of these especially the soundcraft one (I had the most recent version)
Thanks again all for your input
Much appreciated
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Doesn't a large majority of consoles have plastic knobs?
There are a large range of different types of plastic that can be used for knobs. The feel and construction of the plastic makes a huge difference.
-
There are a large range of different types of plastic that can be used for knobs. The feel and construction of the plastic makes a huge difference.
True, but I don't fine the knobs on the Expression to feel anymore "cheap" than other similarly priced boards, and the faders actually seem better than many others.
-
True, but I don't fine the knobs on the Expression to feel anymore "cheap" than other similarly priced boards, and the faders actually seem better than many others.
I loved the faders on the Expression 1, but didn't get along with the encoders. The encoders on the X32 *feel* more responsive.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
My 20 cents directed to the OP:
_________
One concern you mentioned was iPad app.
If you need multiple user support with aux lockout
(allows you to let people mix their own IEM's via iPads, but stops them from being able to screw with the FOH mix), The only mixers I'm aware of that currently have this that are in your price range are:
Presonus - Studio Live
Behringer - X32
Mackie DL1608
(I lose gigs in a regular basis to people that have Studio Live's and X-32's)
______________________________
Reliability
Studio Live - They break - Ask 10 people that have owned and used theirs for 2 years and 50% of them will have experienced a failure. I know a lot of people that hide the fact that their's went down, so it's a hard number to lock down, but you can trust me on this, The failure rate is highere than I feel is acceptable.
Still, I lose gigs to these people because it's really important to a lot of local muso's to mix their IEM's
X-32 - It's a Behringer so I'm not buying - The product has been reliable to the people I've know and there are a ton of them in service, but I will not support a company that built itself through intellectual property theft. Sorry. Ethics are important to me.
Mackie DL1608 - Pretty solid surprisingly - I have one for my personal small club rig - It's pretty cool setup - limited feature set - but no knobs and faders (a feedback blow up is a scary thing) - It has a killer ipad ap and the iPhone ap is great as well - simple - effective.
Yamaha LS9
Rock solid.
If it breaks, you probably are to blame.
Soundcraft
So far so good.
Early models had issues with the memory card / memory card slot.
Since they got those worked out, the reliability has been good from what I've heard and experienced.
___________________________________________
ALL of them have plastic fader knobs (except the DL1608 which doesn't have faders)
___________________________________________
Other
I owned a LS9-16 for years - Loved that board - made me money and never broke.
Decent iPad ap - only 1 user though -
Reliable as the day is long
Sounds decent - many people say they suck, I think they sound okay. There are better sounding boards, but the LS9 was released over 10 years ago, so that's no surprise to me.but I contend that if you can't make a good mix on an LS9, that you shouldn't be mixing.
Feature set is - VERY - deep.
I loved that board.
I sold it because resale was dropping now that soundcraft and A & H had released reasonably priced alternatives. Also I wanted 32 inputs w/o external pre's and I wanted a digital snake. Yamaha has a digi snake but it was crazy expensive and on the LS9-16, it was limited to 16 channels
_________________________
Soundcraft Expression / Performer
I bought the Performer. If you shop, it costs about 1500 more than the Expression.
For that money, you get: extra card slot / Scribble strips / VCA's / Full parametric EQ /DMX (limited DMX) It's worth the money for the Performer.
I do use 4 bands of parametric EQ. Not using them is a work around. (It's a doable work around, but I ain't doing it!) The extra card slot is a big deal also.
The Expression and the Performer both sound great. In fact, if someone doesn't think they sound good, I would say that person needs medication.
Soundcraft says multi user support is coming to the ipad ap. Speaking of iPad - Soundcraft just updated the ap and it's about the same level as the Yamaha. One user - most of what you need. You can mix on it, but you cant select effects and control the setup menu options.
_____________________________
X32 - not going to spend time on it. Fanboy base is large - they'll tell you everything you want to know - just pay attention to the gripes - there aren't many, but they do exist
it does have the best iPad ap going. And it's miles better, not inches.
__________________________
Ease of use - In order, easy to hard:
Mackie DL1608
Presonus StudioLive
Soundcraft (98% as easy to use as the Presonus, but the deeper feature makes it 2% harder)
X32 - not bad - routing took me a while
Yamaha - darn thing is full of features and it's a Yamaha. Once you learn to speak Yamaha, it's pretty easy.
_______________________
Routing
Studiolive and Mackie make it simple - Routing is fixed
Soundcraft routing - easiest of the digi boards with route-ability
X32 is okay routing wise
LS9 - learn to speak Yamaha. (It's easier than the 01V)
________________________________________
If what I did with my money matters
I owned a LS9-16 for years and loved it. Sold it recently and I bought the Soundcraft Performer 2.
I would get a Performer if I bought again, maybe a Performer 1.
If they add multiple user support for the iPad app, I will buy another performer.
_____________________________________
If I had your budget,
If multiple user iPad support was not an issue, I'd get a soundcraft.
If I could afford a Performer, I'd get one, but I could be happy on an Expression.
If I had to have multiple iPad support, I might get an X32.
I'd hate myself every day I owned it for buying one though.
-
Studio Live - They break - Ask 10 people that have owned and used theirs for 2 years and 50% of them will have experienced a failure. I know a lot of people that hide the fact that their's went down, so it's a hard number to lock down, but you can trust me on this, The failure rate is highere than I feel is acceptable.
Still, I lose gigs to these people because it's really important to a lot of local muso's to mix their IEM's
I'm sorry you are loosing jobs to people with Studio Live boards, but I can't let your comments pass. I don't know who those 10 people are you are talking about, but a 50% failure rate? You must be kidding! People are "hiding" it when they fail??? The Studio Live is at least as reliable as other digital boards. Mine has been rock solid for almost 3 years now and I would bet there are at least 10 people reading this with the same experience. There are reasons to make other choices but reliability is NOT one of them!
-
I'm sorry you are loosing jobs to people with Studio Live boards, but I can't let your comments pass. I don't know who those 10 people are you are talking about, but a 50% failure rate? You must be kidding! People are "hiding" it when they fail??? The Studio Live is at least as reliable as other digital boards. Mine has been rock solid for almost 3 years now and I would bet there are at least 10 people reading this with the same experience. There are reasons to make other choices but reliability is NOT one of them!
There will never be an end to the discussion regarding the SLive, but there is more than anecdotal evidence of less than serviceable faders. Check Mike Diacks posts on the number of them he has replaced the entire set.
Of course, when the weakest link ( faders) has been addressed you're left with a more trusyworthy board. IME, the Presonus desks are truly "entry level" regarding dependability and now that there are more offerings in the price range come out a lot farther down the line of choices compared to 3 years ago.
I also think you'll find that a lot of people are selling them off for Soundcraft, B********** or A&H desks after dipping into the "digi-pool" with Presonus. I know that even as functional as mine were (love the expanders and SMAART), as provider for hire I never, ever trusted them enough to go without a back-up desk in the van. And that sort of defeats the idea of smaller and lighter...
-
I'm sorry you are loosing jobs to people with Studio Live boards, but I can't let that pass. I don't know who those 10 people are you are talking about, but a 50% failure rate? You must be kidding! People are "hiding" it when they fail??? The Studio Live is at least as reliable as other digital boards. Mine has been rock solid for almost 3 years now and I would bet there are at least 10 people reading this with the same experience. There are reasons to make other choices but reliability is NOT one of them!
Just like the X32 fanboys who don't want to mention any problems no matter how small. There's a lot of "purchase self-validation" among all users and price levels. I watched a BE service a track ball on the Midas Pro 9 at FOH, when a reboot didn't make the cursor move.
I've got a funky fader on my X32, and the ch. 14 LED meter has 2 bad segments. It's going back to the Mothership for warranty service this week.
As to the LS/9- I specified a DM1000 for a local AV shop, they ended up with an LS9. It's been rock solid and doesn't sound bad to me, either on the recordings or coming out of the PA. We own an LS9/32, never required service, never experienced any operational issues.
The balance needed for purchasing an LS9 these days is between the commercial longevity of the mixer and the cost of acquisition. If you can get 5, 6, 7 years out of it you can buy new; if you can get only a couple more years before your needs may change or your market turns away from it, you need to shop carefully and buy used.
-
I'm sorry you are loosing jobs to people with Studio Live boards, but I can't let your comments pass. I don't know who those 10 people are you are talking about, but a 50% failure rate? You must be kidding! People are "hiding" it when they fail??? The Studio Live is at least as reliable as other digital boards. Mine has been rock solid for almost 3 years now and I would bet there are at least 10 people reading this with the same experience. There are reasons to make other choices but reliability is NOT one of them!
<edit to ad this>
I mentioned "losing gigs to studio live" to point out how strong it's iPad app is. Hopefully Soundcraft and A & H will add that feature, because they are behind on that one <edit>
The 50% number is my personal experience. I did qualify that though. I said "Have used it regularly for 2 years" and when I say that, basically, I'm assuming 100 gigs minimum. Sometimes it takes a while for the failure monkey to show up.
I know 3 guys who have had some sort of failure but publicly testify to the SL's reliability. I've heard of others who have had failures and later deny it, but I am not close to them so I admit to here-say on those guys.
Every time I talk to a SL owner, I ask "has it ever failed". A good percentage say yes. Most of the others look nervous. They've heard, or aren't telling, or they know they're on borrowed time. Most, wisely, carry a backup.
I truly believe that if your SL hasn't broken, either:
1) you're one of the lucky 50%, or
2) Wait a few gigs and it will. Bring a backup.
-
So somehow Studio Live owners have more failures than other digital boards and are less honest about it? Still not buying that, but gosh, thank you for "truly believing" me when I say mine has been trouble free. And how much would you be willing to bet me that mine goes more than a "few gigs" without a failure?(of course as a "fanboy" I would never admit it ::) ) I think if real data was available it would prove your claims to be ridiculous.
And by the way, I also have a Soundcraft Expression3 which I love, but the SL still gets the bulk of my work. As far as a back up, I have always carried a back up board even back in my analog days.
-
So somehow Studio Live owners have more failures than other digital boards and are less honest about it? Still not buying that, but gosh, thank you for "truly believing" me when I say mine has been trouble free. And how much would you be willing to bet me that mine goes more than a "few gigs" without a failure?(of course as a "fanboy" I would never admit it ::) ) I think if real data was available it would prove your claims to be ridiculous.
And by the way, I also have a Soundcraft Expression3 which I love, but the SL still gets the bulk of my work. As far as a back up, I have always carried a back up board even back in my analog days.
I freely admit my estimate is just that, an estimate.
(W.A.G. method - wild ass guess)
I also believe yours has been trouble free if you say it has. The majority of them have been.
And I definitely believe that the SL failure rate is MUCH MUCH higher (10 times or more) than the LS9's.
It truly is comparing apples and oranges. Yamaha's market demands reliability. SL's market demands low price even if it's at the cost of reliability. Yamaha could care less about bar bands and their IEM's, what they seem to care about is church installs and AV vendors.
That said, I too, would like to see real numbers.
I think you would be surprised (just my opinion!)
-
You would soon appreciate the 16 outputs and expansion capability, keeping in mind the board supports 66 channels to mix out of the box. As for features, the Expression has features other boards don't, and vice versa.
Bob,
How does the board do this out of the box? I am thinking of upgrading from my SL1642 and am considering the SC-E1. Are you talking about its capability with a stage box? I want to be prepared in the event I have a show which asks for more than 16, even though in the last several years, I haven't had the need for more than that.
John
-
Bob,
How does the board do this out of the box? I am thinking of upgrading from my SL1642 and am considering the SC-E1. Are you talking about its capability with a stage box? I want to be prepared in the event I have a show which asks for more than 16, even though in the last several years, I haven't had the need for more than that.
John
If you get the 32 channel stage box, you'll have 32 x 8 at the stage
(and another 8 returns via AES/EBU if your amps will take that protocol (I-Techs will))
-
So somehow Studio Live owners have more failures than other digital boards and are less honest about it? Still not buying that, but gosh, thank you for "truly believing" me when I say mine has been trouble free. And how much would you be willing to bet me that mine goes more than a "few gigs" without a failure?(of course as a "fanboy" I would never admit it ::) ) I think if real data was available it would prove your claims to be ridiculous.
And by the way, I also have a Soundcraft Expression3 which I love, but the SL still gets the bulk of my work. As far as a back up, I have always carried a back up board even back in my analog days.
I can't speak for others, and I DID buy my 16.4.2 just before the AI models were announced, so I would hazard that they had the bugs worked out by then. I've had mine for almost 2 yrs and it has not had a single issue even with upgrades and so on.
That said, my analog Mixwiz (still have it as a backup) had to be torn apart and have its faders fixed due to a design issue that shorted them out.. Simple soldering fix. To be fair A/H and their stateside dealer in CA were more than accommodating in helping with a fix. I did the work myself - with pics and tutelage from them - as I didn't want to be without the console for 6+ weeks if I sent it off.
-
I can't speak for others, and I DID buy my 16.4.2 just before the AI models were announced, so I would hazard that they had the bugs worked out by then. I've had mine for almost 2 yrs and it has not had a single issue even with upgrades and so on.
That said, my analog Mixwiz (still have it as a backup) had to be torn apart and have its faders fixed due to a design issue that shorted them out.. Simple soldering fix. To be fair A/H and their stateside dealer in CA were more than accommodating in helping with a fix. I did the work myself - with pics and tutelage from them - as I didn't want to be without the console for 6+ weeks if I sent it off.
It's not a "design" issue, it's an execution issue. The primary (and seemingly single) issue with the older A and H analog consoles has been soldering. Every A and H I have (short of the qu) has been gone through at the local pro shop for re-flow. Not an expensive fix and can be DIY.
After that they're like Shermans Tanks...
-
So I went with an LS9-16,
Played around with it yesterday and found I quickly got familiar with it, There's definitely some different concepts on the LS9 compared to the 01v96 but some of these would definitely suit a live sound workflow better (vs recording).
I hadn't realized until last night but the version of yamaha stagemix that I had being trialing was the latest V4.5 which was released only 6 days ago, perhaps other peoples previous judgements about yamaha's ipad app were based on the older one?
From using stagemix with the ls9 i'm very impressed.
Very easy to setup, synced without issues (In my home, but following logical steps to ensure good wifi signal then it shouldn't be an issue in the field)
I've mixed on the presonus app before (Didn't find it that easy)
The mackie DL1608 (Pretty good, aside from Stagemix it is the best from an ease of use point of view compared to the other offerings that I had trialed in offline mode)
But for me yamaha stagemix is a winner as far as i'm concerned.
I also intend on attaching it to a stand/clamp and using it in conjunction with the desk when I am in front of the desk.
Another advantage is that I discovered that the wifi router that I'm currently using for smaller venues can power itself from the usb port on the LS9.
So far so good :)
Thanks again for all your input
-
Well I can say this!!!!! I no longer have a connectivity issue since ios 7 release. Which was only 1 update ago for the stagemix app!!! Prior to the ios 7 update the reliability of the stagemix app ( for me ) was about as good as a cat fetching a ball and bringing it back........ Now it is as rock solid as ever and I am happy!
-
Thanks Luke,
That's good to know, I have been running ios 7
Thanks
-
Doesn't a large majority of consoles have plastic knobs?
Yes...but the tactile experience varies based on design and I am just saying, the knobs on the expression left a less then stellar impression on me.
Again most likely a personal preference...just stating my experience with it. :)
-
Which was only 1 update ago for the stagemix app!!! Prior to the ios 7 update the reliability of the stagemix app ( for me ) was about as good as a cat fetching a ball and bringing it back........
This quote makes little sense to me. Change "ball" to "clothes pin", and my cat will fetch until he is panting so hard he can't move. :)
-
This quote makes little sense to me. Change "ball" to "clothes pin", and my cat will fetch until he is panting so hard he can't move. :)
Yeah, one of my previous feline pets would play fetch until he got distracted by the sound of a can opener...
-
Well I can say this!!!!! I no longer have a connectivity issue since ios 7 release. Which was only 1 update ago for the stagemix app!!! Prior to the ios 7 update the reliability of the stagemix app ( for me ) was about as good as a cat fetching a ball and bringing it back........ Now it is as rock solid as ever and I am happy!
Hmm, funny that...
I have had rock solid use of Stagemix since the very beginning.
You might want to think over your network since whatever they did that helped you, they could undo in the future.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
I went over all this in several threads and tried everything under the sun. It seems to be an isolated thing for some and of course a non issue for many others? Since the ios7 update I have yet to have a problem.
My reference to the fetching cat seems to be spot on? Seems everyone with a cat that will fetch, will only do it until...... In which case for me prior to the ios7 release, was about like that. It worked great until.........it didn't
Seems to be a non issue now though as I have not heard much about it since the ios7 release. Whatever was done solved my problems and I didn't change a thing in my network from the last stable settings ( which were still hit or miss with ios 6 ).