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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Ron Behro on March 30, 2014, 11:50:34 PM
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Now that digital mixing consoles are popping up everywhere on tour with bands and artists alike, where will all the analog mixing consoles go to finish their life?
Everyday I see ads online of analog mixing consoles for sale. Sound companies, recording studios, theatres, churches, school s, etc. are all upgrading to digital mixing consoles and selling off their analog counterparts.
So many analog consoles for sale at a fraction of their original purchase price. Only problem is that everyone wants digital and nobody wants to by the old analog boards.
I do realize that there are some sound techs who prefer to work on analog consoles and have not completely converted to digital. I myself am one of those sound techs. For so many jobs an analog console still makes sense.
Soon there is going to be a big pileup of analog mixing consoles that may end up in the landfills if not sold off as used gear. That would be a sad thing to see happen.
I believe that analog mixing consoles still have life left in them and can still be used for modern day sound jobs. It is just a matter of finding ways to put these old console back to work.
Can analog mixing consoles still exist with digital ones?
Any thoughts of this?
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There are people who will trade convenience for cost. There are people who don't want to learn, or are afraid of ruggedness. There are people who don't know what to do with compressors on every channel,... There are people who curate museums. There are people who like nostalgia. All good analog candidates.
Analog prices will continue to drop. Digital will continue to add new features including some automation capabilities that struggle at first, and eventually work. Analog interconnects will disappear (Dante is already showing up in many devices). Wired interconnects will eventually disappear.
Maybe there will be an analog console renaissance in 30 years, as there was with 2" tape (until people stopped making tape).
Anyone want to buy a bunch of excellent, immaculately maintained manual focus Nikon lenses that don't meter on most modern Nikon camera bodies? 10 cents on the dollar. Anyone know how to set an optimal f-stop or manually focus a lens? Anyone care?
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Now that digital mixing consoles are popping up everywhere on tour with bands and artists alike, where will all the analog mixing consoles go to finish their life?
Everyday I see ads online of analog mixing consoles for sale. Sound companies, recording studios, theatres, churches, school s, etc. are all upgrading to digital mixing consoles and selling off their analog counterparts.
So many analog consoles for sale at a fraction of their original purchase price. Only problem is that everyone wants digital and nobody wants to by the old analog boards.
I do realize that there are some sound techs who prefer to work on analog consoles and have not completely converted to digital. I myself am one of those sound techs. For so many jobs an analog console still makes sense.
Soon there is going to be a big pileup of analog mixing consoles that may end up in the landfills if not sold off as used gear. That would be a sad thing to see happen.
I believe that analog mixing consoles still have life left in them and can still be used for modern day sound jobs. It is just a matter of finding ways to put these old console back to work.
Can analog mixing consoles still exist with digital ones?
Any thoughts of this?
There must be a market for analog mixers as all the manufacturers are still producing them.
I don't know of any major manufacturer that has eliminated their analog line and has gone digital exclusively.
It would be interesting to know the ratio of analog to digital boards currently being manufactured and sold.
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Anyone want to buy a bunch of excellent, immaculately maintained manual focus Nikon lenses that don't meter on most modern Nikon camera bodies? 10 cents on the dollar. Anyone know how to set an optimal f-stop or manually focus a lens? Anyone care?
You can send them to me if you like. I can use them on my Nikon F, or FE2. They can join my 70+ film cameras.
EDIT: Actually, I do sometimes use my pre AI Nikkors on a D3200. Auto focus and metering are over rated!
The rush to digital has been great for film fans like me as we can now afford the cameras we could only dream about owning a few years ago,
I don't know if the same will be true for analogue mixers - I don't have space for 70 of them!
There are quite a few analogies between music and photography as far as digital and analogue is concerned. In most cases it is no more than convenience winning out over quality. After all, no one abandons one system in favour of another because it is more difficult or less convenient!
Steve.
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I think it's just a little short sighted to ask this question. There is still a market for analog consoles and outboard gear in the > $1500 range, specialized markets, etc. Not every bar band in the world is willing to part with $3K to jump on the entry level bandwagon, and not every touring band or studio is 100% digital. The entry level crowd tends to place a huge premium on recording the gig. That no longer means a fully digital board, as even boards costing $2-300 offer USB interfaces and even some digital function. As usual, it depends.
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i will not use digital. i do not like the sound.
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Little fish like me will likely be the ones who benefit from the shift. Like Bob said, price is a key point here, and while you get a lot of bang for your buck, if you simply don't have enough buck then you have to look elsewhere.
For our needs, analog boards are just fine and will serve our needs for many more years unless our business really takes off, at which point we'll pick up the gear that we need, and more importantly, afford.
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At the University where I am employed we have upgraded our main theatre/auditorium to a GLD 80. The rest of our portable systems, classroom systems and sports team consoles are all analog. I am trying to convince them to let me purchase a few more digital systems for the portable systems, as I hate lugging that 100' snake around.
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There must be a market for analog mixers as all the manufacturers are still producing them.
I don't know of any major manufacturer that has eliminated their analog line and has gone digital exclusively.
It would be interesting to know the ratio of analog to digital boards currently being manufactured and sold.
Other than sub $1000 small format boards (mostly 16-channel and smaller) and APB, who still makes analog boards?
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Now that digital mixing consoles are popping up everywhere on tour with bands and artists alike, where will all the analog mixing consoles go to finish their life?
Everyday I see ads online of analog mixing consoles for sale. Sound companies, recording studios, theatres, churches, school s, etc. are all upgrading to digital mixing consoles and selling off their analog counterparts.
So many analog consoles for sale at a fraction of their original purchase price. Only problem is that everyone wants digital and nobody wants to by the old analog boards.
Yep
I do realize that there are some sound techs who prefer to work on analog consoles and have not completely converted to digital. I myself am one of those sound techs. For so many jobs an analog console still makes sense.
Many events can be done on analog.
Soon there is going to be a big pileup of analog mixing consoles that may end up in the landfills if not sold off as used gear. That would be a sad thing to see happen.
This is likely to happen.
I believe that analog mixing consoles still have life left in them and can still be used for modern day sound jobs. It is just a matter of finding ways to put these old console back to work.
Can analog mixing consoles still exist with digital ones?
Any thoughts of this?
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I recently purchased a mackie onyx 24.4 at 800$ including a hard case! This used to cost sub 2000$. Am so happy about it And it's doing all I want. Honestly am still sceptic of the mushrooming cheap digital consoles. I want something robust at a reasonable price. Something that can be easily repaired from my side of town! So I will stay analog for quite some time.
Conrad
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Conrad brings up another good point.
While most of these digital boards are proving to be quite reliable, you can't just take them to any established repair center to get something fixed one it. It has to go back to the mothership and you're stuck without a comparable mixer for the duration unless you pack a spare.
Though if you get into that situation and you DON'T have a backup plan, well, you only have yourself to blame. ;)
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Other than sub $1000 small format boards (mostly 16-channel and smaller) and APB, who still makes analog boards?
Allen and Heath, Soundcraft, probably others.
http://www.allen-heath.com/series/gl/
http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=131
Steve.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLzlfs7_lfU
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Conrad brings up another good point.
While most of these digital boards are proving to be quite reliable, you can't just take them to any established repair center to get something fixed one it. It has to go back to the mothership and you're stuck without a comparable mixer for the duration unless you pack a spare.
Though if you get into that situation and you DON'T have a backup plan, well, you only have yourself to blame. ;)
Mine are being relegated to back-up spare status, fulfilling "special purpose" configs or being sold off to low-budget installs or church groups for whom all the digital bells and whistles are totally superfluous.
It's like the big, boxy heavy old loudspeakers. You still see them, it's just different people down the line who are using them now.
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As I mentioned in another thread, some people are parting out their boards and selling the individual channel strips as rackable analog preamps with faders. Personally, I hate to see nice boards gutted or otherwise trashed...
In the '90s, keyboardists were practically giving away their analog synthesizers. I remember seeing an ad once for an old Moog (I forget the model) for $25, with the ad suggesting it might be useful to help tune guitars! It almost became a mantra - "If it ain't MIDI, it ain't shiite!" Have you checked the prices for vintage synths lately? They're not 25 bucks anymore...
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As I mentioned in another thread, some people are parting out their boards and selling the individual channel strips as rackable analog preamps with faders. Personally, I hate to see nice boards gutted or otherwise trashed...
In the '90s, keyboardists were practically giving away their analog synthesizers. I remember seeing an ad once for an old Moog (I forget the model) for $25, with the ad suggesting it might be useful to help tune guitars! It almost became a mantra - "If it ain't MIDI, it ain't shiite!" Have you checked the prices for vintage synths lately? They're not 25 bucks anymore...
Not to get all logical with you, but keep in mind the high price of collectable old synths are to a very tiny number of people with too much money. If there was a real mass market for the old designs somebody would still be making them.
Analog mixing consoles are tragically flawed in comparison to modern digital mixers in a bang for the buck feature comparison. As the market becomes more reliant on features that are only available from digital technology that will be another nail in the analog console coffin.
This is life for any technology based product.
JR
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We have two situations....
One, I have a 40 ch crest xl8 sitting in a warehouse. It is our emergency emergency spare.
Two - many digital consoles employ some form of skeumorphism in their controls, emulating the analog hardware they replace. When teaching new techs, having the hands on analog gear is helpful. Also when teaching about signal flow. But most importantly - the young guys I am hiring right now, the 25 and under set - some of them have never touched analog and they struggle to quickly make a show happen. My theory is they try to do too much with the tools they have (or are lazy and spend lots of valuable setup time dicking with shit they don't need - example: try to use a compressor instead of riding the fader). I send them out with a small analog rig, a couple compressors, and a couple dual 31 eqs, and make them do small shows on that till they understand that you don't NEED 4 band fully parametric eq on every input channel. Sure it's handy, but if you can do it well on the analog rig, with low, high, and a sweep able mid, then I have confidence in your ability to do well on digital.
And now I feel and sound old... Uphill both ways in the snow, you kids get off my lawn, etc.
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make them do small shows on that till they understand that you don't NEED 4 band fully parametric eq on every input channel. Sure it's handy, but if you can do it well on the analog rig, with low, high, and a sweep able mid, then I have confidence in your ability to do well on digital.
My thoughts exactly.
And now I feel and sound old... Uphill both ways in the snow, you kids get off my lawn, etc.
That too!
Steve.
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I have at least one upcoming lease setup in a venue big enough to put my 40 ch. analog setup with outboard that I already own. I like the flexibility of different comps and such for different sources and if I don't have to move it.....
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Not to get all logical with you.....
We can use a little logic around here, JR. Happy you're willing to provide as needed.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLzlfs7_lfU
Jay just doesn't look all broken hearted...
The object lesson is the use of the CAT D5G compressor.
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Yes, I totally agree with your comment here. It is sad to see a great console get parted out and left as an empty shell. It would be really great to see someone start an organization that could buy up older consoles and maybe donate them to worthy organizations, community groups, music schools, etc. The console could a have second lease on life.
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Not to get all logical with you, but keep in mind the high price of collectable old synths are to a very tiny number of people with too much money. If there was a real mass market for the old designs somebody would still be making them.
Analog mixing consoles are tragically flawed in comparison to modern digital mixers in a bang for the buck feature comparison. As the market becomes more reliant on features that are only available from digital technology that will be another nail in the analog console coffin.
This is life for any technology based product.
JR
Yes, I totally agree with your comment here. It is sad to see a great console get parted out and left as an empty shell. It would be really great to see someone start an organization that could buy up older consoles and maybe donate them to worthy organizations, community groups, music schools, etc. The console could a have second lease on life.
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Yes, I totally agree with your comment here. It is sad to see a great console get parted out and left as an empty shell. It would be really great to see someone start an organization that could buy up older consoles and maybe donate them to worthy organizations, community groups, music schools, etc. The console could a have second lease on life.
My experience of working with charities and similar organisations is that they will not necessarily be able to use a donated old large frame analogue console, even when one donated in good working order would be ideal to replace the existing equipment in various states of disrepair, and initially would be a nice change from the various existing consoles I find all patched together to achieve a higher channel count.
The main issue is simply maintenance and upkeep. The organisations I have worked with or volunteered at have enough problems keeping their doors open, to the point where any faulty equipment that cannot be easily fixed by a non-specialist goes unfixed as there is no budget available for repairs.
A youth project close to me that opened less than 10 years ago came close to closing recently. It cost a lot of money to start, which mostly went on a very expensive studio as well as live equipment and practice rooms fully kitted out.
Whilst there was plenty of money for the initial startup costs, the running costs (mainly bills and staff) were dependant on central government, local government and charity every year. Finally a change in government led to cuts all round and this much used and appreciated facility looked set to close, eventually getting a last minute reprive when they rationalized running costs.
Meanwhile inside the studio is a valuable and barely used medium sized digital recording console, which is used only for its head amps going straight into Logic. Since the mixing is all done in the box now, it could be sold and replaced by a couple of ADA8000s or similar, and that would free up enough money to fix and replace all the broken kit used for live events and practice rooms. However they are not allowed to utilize assets like this, even when it would produce a significant benefit to the whole place. I have encountered similarly restrictive rules elsewhere.
I could imagine other places with less technically knowledgeable staff accepting a donated large analogue console, not realising the potential upkeep requirements. Eventually the donated item would live in its flight case and serve as a desktop for the working equipment owned and brought along by a volunteer like me.
I'm sure there are some circumstances where your idea would work properly, but my experience of working with worthy organisations is that they cannot afford to fix broken equipment they already own, and that they struggle to afford the required PAT testing each year that's needed to use any electrical kit in public buildings.
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While analogue consoles may continue to live on in small frames for awhile yet, I think their fate is sealed. As the price of small format digital mixers continues to drop and as younger people who aren't biased against the technology move into the market place, small analogue will disappear. The days of large frame analogue consoles are pretty much over except for the smaller/medium sized installs which choose to purchase used consoles of a quality that they could never have afforded in the past, and the few regionals that choose to keep one around either, just in case someone comes through who has the clout to insist on one or because the boss would rather see his Heritage rot in the case rather then sell it off at a basement price. As far as back-ups, in the past it was common to carry a back-up analogue 32 channel Mackie, Venice, A-H in the truck. Carrying analogue back-up no longer makes sense in a digital world. Since so much processing is in the console now, to carry and analogue back up would also require carrying processor and EQ racks, and possibly a copper snake and take lots of extra time to re-patch. Likewise, I don't think that anyone is going to stick a 6 to 8 foot long, 300 to 800 pound large frame console in the nose of the truck, "just in case". I see this as the "pro-market" niche for an X-32 or the like.