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Title: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Kidd on June 29, 2014, 01:21:36 AM
I'm sure someone here have had Saliva in their travels. They will be playing in the club I do in August. Like with all the events I contact TM to get specific needs. Explained that we use 2 srx 725s over 4 728s in a 75 feet wide and 200 feet long room. This setup has workout very well with a number of acts that have came through. Fuel being the most recent. TM said I really need a total of 6 srx 725s to offer the headroom I need. Now I can see maybe 4 total but in this room I feel 6 is overkill and with width would be to much. What I offered was 4 725s and 6 728s which I feel would rock this size room with more than enough headroom. But I differ to the vast experience on this forum, is 6 725s to much for this size room? Thanks
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 29, 2014, 08:59:38 AM
When you start adding cabinets for "headroom" the sound quality starts to suffer.

And let's examine his "headroom" idea a bit more.

IF the additional cabinets were to sum together perfectly (which they won't due to the spaced drivers), the MAXIMUM additional output you could get would be 3 dB.

If 3dB is going to make or break the performance-then you need a bigger system.

Of course some people actually like the sound of cabinets that are interfering with each other.  It sounds "right" to them and what a PA is "supposed" to sound like.

Assuming the 2 cabinets are side by side an splayed and covering the room fine-then where would you place the 3 per side so that it can add to the others and not interfere???????????

Of course that is not what the type of question you ask to a TM who makes up things as he goes and believe that he is right
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on June 29, 2014, 09:46:04 AM
According to the Danley DDT Calculator for iPhone, coherent addition of two like acoustical signals is 6 dB.  Why did you use 3dB for your "sum together perfectly" number?
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 29, 2014, 10:32:24 AM
According to the Danley DDT Calculator for iPhone, coherent addition of two like acoustical signals is 6 dB.  Why did you use 3dB for your "sum together perfectly" number?
Because going from 2 cabinet to 3 cabinet is NOT "like" sources.  Going from 2 cabinet to 4 cabinets is doubling the "like" sources.

A 50% addition in cabinets will result in a maximum of 3dB gain.

But then that is assuming the sources are within 1/4 wavelength of each other-and as with most cabinets-that wavelength addition only occurs at the lower freq-NOT the mids or highs-where there can actually be LOSS-due to cancellation at some freq.

Consider that 550Hz is 2' long-so 1/4 wavelength is 6".  Pretty hard to get drivers that close-and much harder as the freq goes up
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 29, 2014, 11:44:07 AM
I'm sure someone here have had Saliva in their travels. They will be playing in the club I do in August. Like with all the events I contact TM to get specific needs. Explained that we use 2 srx 725s over 4 728s in a 75 feet wide and 200 feet long room. This setup has workout very well with a number of acts that have came through. Fuel being the most recent. TM said I really need a total of 6 srx 725s to offer the headroom I need. Now I can see maybe 4 total but in this room I feel 6 is overkill and with width would be to much. What I offered was 4 725s and 6 728s which I feel would rock this size room with more than enough headroom. But I differ to the vast experience on this forum, is 6 725s to much for this size room? Thanks

I can't offer specific advice about how much PA in this room is enough, but we've done a bunch of work with Saliva over the years.  Compared to some of the other hard rock acts whose names begin with "S", Saliva are pussycats.  There's a good chance the PA will still work when Saliva is done; it's the support acts that you'll have to ride herd over.

The basic reality is that SRX725 aren't the right box for the room - there is no "good" way to deploy them that will make sense.  The TM is trying to get enough piston area to move "rock show quantities" of air regardless of what it sounds like.

And FWIW, if I were the BE or PM/TM for a band like we're discussing, I'd not accept this rig/room combination, either.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Kidd on June 29, 2014, 02:31:48 PM


The basic reality is that SRX725 aren't the right box for the room - there is no "good" way to deploy them that will make sense.  The TM is trying to get enough piston area to move "rock show quantities" of air regardless of what it sounds like.

And FWIW, if I were the BE or PM/TM for a band like we're discussing, I'd not accept this rig/room combination, either.

Thanks Tim,   If 725s are not for this type of room what would you say would be? The 725s have worked great but I'm always looking to improve system.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: jasonfinnigan on June 29, 2014, 06:49:10 PM
Thanks Tim,   If 725s are not for this type of room what would you say would be? The 725s have worked great but I'm always looking to improve system.
Older boxes but EAW 650s/EAW 850 would be a lot of volume for the room
Also if your looking into line arrays (I don't know what the room is like) The martin w8lm has gained a lot of popularity recently, at least around here.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 29, 2014, 07:13:31 PM
Thanks Tim,   If 725s are not for this type of room what would you say would be? The 725s have worked great but I'm always looking to improve system.

I'd want something 3 way, pref. horn-loaded mids, with a relatively tight pattern.

Enough of the 728s would be fine for subs.

Doing hardcore & metal requires the same kind of overkill that rap/hip hop/EDM requires in the subs.

In a way, the Saliva contact is trying to keep your rig intact.  He doesn't care about the sound quality nearly as much as he cares about the rig surviving to the end of the show.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Kidd on June 29, 2014, 08:04:00 PM
I'd want something 3 way, pref. horn-loaded mids, with a relatively tight pattern.

Enough of the 728s would be fine for subs.

Doing hardcore & metal requires the same kind of overkill that rap/hip hop/EDM requires in the subs.

In a way, the Saliva contact is trying to keep your rig intact.  He doesn't care about the sound quality nearly as much as he cares about the rig surviving to the end of the show.

Got ya, It does seem in talking to him to be exactly what your saying. Will look into upgrading system but for this event will go with the 4 725s can do 6 just worried about splay and 6 728s. Thanks again! 

Hey Jason, I am looking into arrays but would not be flying them in this venue. Would want to use them in multiple situations. Thanks
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 29, 2014, 08:14:34 PM
Four has never been an issue to me Bob, but six (6) may be looking for trouble. I just don't see any way you could splay them properly. You'll have plenty of volume with the four, but you'll be pushing hard. Let us know how this works out please.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Nils Erickson on July 01, 2014, 03:26:14 AM
One rig my band has ended up playing on several times at festivals during the last couple of years has four SRX 722 over four SRX 728 per side, although outdoors.  I was curious about how it would sound, given how much we discuss this here.  The speakers were tight packed, not set up to cover the potential 300 degrees per side they could do.  As I walked across the lawn while listening, I could definitely hear the combing.  However, for most of the audience (standing in place), though it didn't sound equal everywhere,  it was a fine experience.  Kinda like Ivan mentioned earlier, it sounded like a lot of people expect the PA to sound.  Yes it could have been more hi-fi; no, it was not terrible.  If it were, the provider would not be hired for show after show, year after year.

I dig the 2 per side set up personally, though... I'm with Bob on that. 

Cheers,
Nils
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 01, 2014, 10:23:26 AM
One rig my band has ended up playing on several times at festivals during the last couple of years has four SRX 722 over four SRX 728 per side, although outdoors.  I was curious about how it would sound, given how much we discuss this here.  The speakers were tight packed, not set up to cover the potential 300 degrees per side they could do.  As I walked across the lawn while listening, I could definitely hear the combing.  However, for most of the audience (standing in place), though it didn't sound equal everywhere,  it was a fine experience.  Kinda like Ivan mentioned earlier, it sounded like a lot of people expect the PA to sound.  Yes it could have been more hi-fi; no, it was not terrible.  If it were, the provider would not be hired for show after show, year after year.

I dig the 2 per side set up personally, though... I'm with Bob on that. 

Cheers,
Nils

I was running a show at Seattle's PrideFest this Sunday, and I've been running one of their stages for 8 years now. Previously, used 2 SRX725s per side, and while it was OK... the HF dropped off after about 100-125' since the audience area slopes down away from the stage. I was talking to my A1 about it (who has 722s) and his comment was that the HF dropping off was pretty much the one complaint he has about his 722s. Of course, people see them and are just like "that's it?" - but then he fires it up. Bang.

This year, I upped the DJ stage rig to 4 per side of VT4888. Night. And. Day. Difference. Happy DJ promoter. Happy client (festival director). Happy production manager (also does other major events there at Seattle Center). Happy DJs. Budget increases for next year. And I learned the difference of the -x settings on the I-Tech VerTec presets.

Just get the damn people off my 728s, will ya?!?  :P

-Ray

(edit: idk how I had a random "This year," in there...  :o )
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Kidd on July 01, 2014, 11:23:34 AM
I was running a show at Seattle's PrideFest this Sunday, and I've been running one of their stages for 8 years now. Previously, used 2 SRX725s per side, and while it was OK... the HF dropped off after about 100-125' since the audience area slopes down away from the stage. I was talking to my A1 about it (who has 722s) and his comment was that the HF dropping off was pretty much the one complaint he has about his 722s. Of course, people see them and are just like "that's it?" - but then he fires it up. Bang.

This year, I upped the DJ stage rig to 4 per side of VT4888. Night. And. Day. Difference. Happy DJ promoter. Happy client (festival director). Happy production manager (also does other major events there at Seattle Center). Happy DJs. Budget increases for next year. And I learned the difference of the -x settings on the I-Tech VerTec presets.

Just get the damn people off my 728s, will ya?!? :p




Love the vt4888. I would need to figure out where to place them since I would not be flying in this room. Also, would one per side in in room mentioned work?


-Ray

This year,
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 01, 2014, 11:28:57 AM
Love the vt4888. I would need to figure out where to place them since I would not be flying in this room. Also, would one per side in in room mentioned work?

One per side... of the VT4888? No. I'm not even contemplating anything less then 4/side.

-Ray
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on July 01, 2014, 12:04:25 PM
I wouldn't contemplate not flying them either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 01, 2014, 12:22:22 PM
I wouldn't contemplate not flying them either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed...  but if the room doesn't have the rigging available, then flying won't happen. Soooo sometimes you work with it. I ground stacked this Sunday on the wings of an SL100- pretty much slaying people right in front of them, we shaded the bottom two boxes 3db, and probably should have cut a bit more. (Flying at my event didn't happen because production manager wasn't able to schedule time DOS to get motors rigged. And we couldn't get anyone in there on stage set day.)

But massive improvement over previous years. I was satisfied. :)

-Ray
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on July 01, 2014, 12:27:31 PM
I am surprised that no one has mentioned this but have you ever tried a split PA. Feed the vocals only in some speakers and band only in the others. I tried it where it was insisted I use more boxes then I knew would properly work (splay) per side. I loved the result and would like to use this method more often.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 01, 2014, 12:33:16 PM
A dual PA is the way my rig is normally setup and has been for about 20 years.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Derek D Sanchez on July 01, 2014, 12:38:33 PM
We ran 6 jbl srx 725 over 6 jbl 4719x for outdoor shows and it would blow your head off, tops powered by qsc rmx 4050hd lows powered by bridged qsc rmx 2450on each 4719 and hefty power distro, sounded amazing. Derek
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 01, 2014, 12:59:01 PM
A dual PA is the way my rig is normally setup and has been for about 20 years.

Tim will be able to speak better as to this, but it sounds like from his experience, either way, the SRX rig in this sized room for this group won't be too kind to the speakers...

Derek, there's no doubt this is a great rig for outdoors, but with the specs given by the OP, coupled by people's experience with the group (and their supporting acts) - yeah.

-Ray
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Derek D Sanchez on July 01, 2014, 01:17:54 PM
Indoors we have always used 4 tops and 4 lows and it was more than enough, never tried 6 over 6 inside. I sure do miss those subs, I ran them since 2004 to 2013 and then sold them, everything now looks wimpy compared to those dual 18, they were scary looking, even the srx 728 and stx 828 looks like they got shrunk in the dryer. I currently have the vrx 918s. 4 over 4 inside will cover 1500 inside no problem at 110 db back at room. We ran several hardcore bands with it. Derek
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 01, 2014, 01:36:26 PM
I currently have the vrx 918s. 4 over 4 inside will cover 1500 inside no problem at 110 db back at room. We ran several hardcore bands with it. Derek

Is that 4-over-4 per side, or total? If per side (which is what I would think), then again, the OP doesn't have access to rigging and you can't pole mount more then two boxes. Either way, if 8-15" drivers are not acceptable, I would be hard pressed to think that 8-12" drivers (or worse, 4!) would be agreeable.

Just saying that Tim, who has WORKED the band in question before, stated that SRX/this room combination would probably be unacceptable to him as well. When it comes down to the end of the day, what we "think is best" sometimes falls behind what the promoter wants. (Given technical, physical and budgetary limitations, of course.)

-Ray
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Derek D Sanchez on July 01, 2014, 01:43:33 PM
4 jbl 4719x over 4 jbl srx 725 is what we used to use to cover 1500 inside for rock bands. I now use the vrx 918 but have not been doing shows like that this year because it was to much work for not enough budget.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Kidd on July 16, 2014, 07:23:51 PM
Thanks for help, I will be using 4 srx 725s, 4 srx 728s with 2 srx 718s to get by on this gig. I do have a chance to get 4 stx 835s or maybe array's for the future. Would the stx 835 be a better choice or am I still looking at same issue for this type of venue? Venue holds 400. When I make this move want to do it right. Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Teddy Murphy on July 16, 2014, 07:34:01 PM
I have Saliva on the 31st and can't get a phone call answers or a returned call (no email address). Promoter is trying to low ball on budget.  He says they club holds 400, but it's about 30ft wide by 40 to front of house IF THAT.  Trying to figure out what rig to use since there are no points for rigging my line array.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 16, 2014, 08:20:21 PM
I have Saliva on the 31st and can't get a phone call answers or a returned call (no email address). Promoter is trying to low ball on budget.  He says they club holds 400, but it's about 30ft wide by 40 to front of house IF THAT.  Trying to figure out what rig to use since there are no points for rigging my line array.

I'll see if I can find current contact info, we've done a bunch of shows with them over the years. Generally an easy bunch to work with, IIRC.  Just remember that it's a rock show, the stage will be loud and you'll need to get well over that level and have enough subbage to feel the LF.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Kidd on July 16, 2014, 08:59:25 PM
I have Saliva on the 31st and can't get a phone call answers or a returned call (no email address). Promoter is trying to low ball on budget.  He says they club holds 400, but it's about 30ft wide by 40 to front of house IF THAT.  Trying to figure out what rig to use since there are no points for rigging my line array.

Check your PM. Sent it to you.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Kidd on July 16, 2014, 09:01:13 PM
I'll see if I can find current contact info, we've done a bunch of shows with them over the years. Generally an easy bunch to work with, IIRC.  Just remember that it's a rock show, the stage will be loud and you'll need to get well over that level and have enough subbage to feel the LF.

Your right Tim they are pretty cool.
Title: Re: Upcoming event
Post by: Bob Kidd on August 03, 2014, 01:55:50 PM
Four has never been an issue to me Bob, but six (6) may be looking for trouble. I just don't see any way you could splay them properly. You'll have plenty of volume with the four, but you'll be pushing hard. Let us know how this works out please.

Update on event: Everything went great! System rocked. I used 4 SRX 725s and 6 SRX 728s and ended up having more than enough headroom. With adding additional speakers, a week before event I setup up system and set gain structure and tweeked room EQ. Day of event sound tech/TM came in tested system and ran sound check and was very happy with performance of system. Was also very appreciative of system already being eq'd properly to room. Thanks again to Bob, Tim and everyone else who gave GREAT expert advice! Bob