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Title: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Conrad Muzoora on February 07, 2013, 01:42:53 AM
Ok, I have heard nice things and not so nice about line arrays. I have been using 4 qrx 115s (2 per side) and 4 qrx 218 either center clustered or 2 per side. This has been mostly for shows of about 1000 heads outdoors. I plan to get bigger, mostly to cover larger crowns for spoken speech(May be up to 10,000) I care more about clear vocals and speech intelligibility.

I Have now purchased another pair of qrx218 subs to make 6 total and this am sure is enough bottom for the occasional DJ or recorded music playback, i would love a small portable line array  of 4 boxes per side that would significantly outperform my qrx 115 and throw much further.

I came across the Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy used and my budget is around 10K. I have enough amplification and processing (a bunch of qsc plx and rmx amps, dbx driveracks 260 and PA+)

Will 8 of these boxes do the job(4 per side) or are there others i should be looking at? Or am i better off with a delay stack of some more qrx115s at let say 200-300 feet?

Conrad
www.kooleventug.com
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Luke Geis on February 07, 2013, 02:27:41 AM
I have heard mixed reviews of that brand although I have never heard them myself. I find that most of the time when you have a speaker that requires processing ( which these will ) it is best to run with the dedicated stuff made by the manufacturer for them. I'm certain they will sound just fine with some work, but it may not be the cure all you want. They don't get super loud and that small of an enclosure may not get directional control over enough frequencies to work for long throw? I too thought that going with a line array set up would be good for me, but am considering point source again for my next big purchase. I think fully horn loaded point source boxes ( designed for long throw ) would be a better way to go than line array systems shorter than 6 boxes.

My research has wound up showing that line array boxes as small as 4 per side can achieve line array characteristics. But the control of frequencies is only good down to the low mids which are located above the crossover point. That means that in long throw applications the back of the listening area may have a much different sound than the near field listeners. Prediction software is the only thing that can really tell. It may behoove you to try a few generations in some software to see the results and where control drops off with line array clusters that small.

With horn loaded point source boxes that are designed for full range, you can get full directional control over all frequencies for that boxes coverage area. The sound still drops at 6db per doubling of distance, but you will have a box that will control the sound better over a longer distance. This may or may not add up to more volume in the rear listening area, but it should add up to better sonic coverage there, with the volume you do have. Just food for thought.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 07, 2013, 06:31:46 AM

My research has wound up showing that line array boxes as small as 4 per side can achieve line array characteristics.
It is not the number of boxes-but rather the overall length of the array.

So when using "mini" boxes-it is going to take more of them to equal just a few of the larger boxes.

Something the advertising likes to forget----------------------------------------
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Vinny DAgostino on February 07, 2013, 09:08:31 AM
I myself have never heard a Sound Bridge system but...
I also have never read one possitive review of any of their gear.

Here is some interesting reading:
http://soundforums.net/product-reviews/5705-soundbridge-xyon-good-lord.html



Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: gary makovsky on February 07, 2013, 10:21:48 AM
The Xyons work in pairs so 4 boxes actually perform like 2 and given the short length I treat them as point source. The only processing for the 4 is crossover settings.  4 per side is what we do at a summer outdoor series for up to 5K.  Some EQ tweaking in the high mids and boosts in the low mid around 250 is all i do. I never have done more than 6 per side for larger events and never needed extra processing. I like the boxes outdoors but indoors takes a lot more EQing for mid size rooms.
Where are you located?
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 07, 2013, 11:23:04 AM
Don't do it. You'll never get happy with the way it sounds over what you are using now.

I would recommend buying more QRX and finding a way to fly it. If you get those boxes up in the air you won't have a problem doing a speech for a very large crowd. 4 per side should do it, flown 2 over 2.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Scott Wagner on February 07, 2013, 12:31:22 PM
The Xyons work in pairs so 4 boxes actually perform like 2 and given the short length I treat them as point source.
I'll never understand why people buy line array boxes to run them as point source.  Just get a decent point source box.  As for Sound Bridge:  one word, "don't."
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 07, 2013, 01:25:15 PM
Ok, I have heard nice things and not so nice about line arrays. I have been using 4 qrx 115s (2 per side) and 4 qrx 218 either center clustered or 2 per side. This has been mostly for shows of about 1000 heads outdoors. I plan to get bigger, mostly to cover larger crowns for spoken speech(May be up to 10,000) I care more about clear vocals and speech intelligibility.

Run, do not walk, away from Soundbridge.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Conrad Muzoora on February 07, 2013, 02:00:15 PM
Attached some pictures to give an idea of what am talking about. I could only get about 1/4 of the crowd at the best view.
Conrad
www.kooleventug.com
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Mike Pyle on February 07, 2013, 03:15:57 PM
You should have bought the four SLS LS8695 columns that I had for sale recently. If you can find some used they would be a very good choice for what you are trying to do. Stacked 2 per side they can cover a VERY large room or open area for speech and moderate music application over subs.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 07, 2013, 03:25:48 PM
Who builds the stage at the top of the hill with the audience area sloping AWAY from it?

Major fail.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 07, 2013, 05:11:00 PM
Hi Conrad-

Thanks for the pictures.  I really didn't have a good conception of what you needed to cover.  Are these pictures from the Karama Mission?

It looks like the audience is almost 180°...  How big?  100m x 150m ?  You're covering a lot of folks with 2 QRX/side.

To make a lighting analogy, a short stack of line array elements is a spotlight and you need a floodlight.  Do you have other gigs (or prospects) where this 'spotlight' might be a good thing?

Buy what gives you the most flexibility or gives you a competitive advantage over other providers.  Both need to make you a profit and a return on your investment.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Evan Hunter on February 07, 2013, 08:43:57 PM
Honestly Pick up some good ol Turbo Flashlights and some subs for that gig.... I looked up the line array in question. Its either not the same sound bridge company Ive seen in local stores or they have stepped up their game. The sound bridge I knew was VERY cheap budget stuff.


I like the idea of more QRX, if you can deploy them correctly.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Conrad Muzoora on February 08, 2013, 12:04:29 AM
Hi Conrad-

Thanks for the pictures.  I really didn't have a good conception of what you needed to cover.  Are these pictures from the Karama Mission?

It looks like the audience is almost 180°...  How big?  100m x 150m ?  You're covering a lot of folks with 2 QRX/side.

To make a lighting analogy, a short stack of line array elements is a spotlight and you need a floodlight.  Do you have other gigs (or prospects) where this 'spotlight' might be a good thing?

Buy what gives you the most flexibility or gives you a competitive advantage over other providers.  Both need to make you a profit and a return on your investment.

You a re right on spot Tim,
This is the Karama mission in Uganda. Attracts folks of close to 80k but on a very tiny budget. The qrx 115 did pretty well compared to what they have used in the previous years. I was able to cover close to 80% of them with intelligible sound for the speech. These are mostly prayer festivals and they usually cover an area of about 180° around the stage and can reach as far as 200m in front of the stage. This year, it was 4 days long and i had them move the stage to the top of the hill as opposed to down in the valley as was done in the previous years and i think the height advantage helped!

I like the idea of more qrx because i have had great success with them for such low budget applications and will also be useful in other applications like small weddings and small DJ stuff.

Can i get educated on how to deploy 4 per side? How do i orient the horns in the boxes. Would this formation result in some useful summation that would give me a little more spl? I was thinking in the direction of setting up the new 4 qrxs at let say 100m and delay them appropriately with my dbx 260 wouldn't this work better?

Am getting asked to do more and more "mission impossible" kind of stuff at really low budgets that's why i was asking for guidance.

Conrad
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Luke Geis on February 08, 2013, 01:44:21 AM
4 per side may not be the idea? At 90deg a box you should have 180deg of supposed coverage. If they are 60deg boxes then 2 will provide 120deg of supposed coverage. One poster recommended flying two over two. I think he meant one pair upside up and the other pair upside down on top of the first pair. This will place the horns closer together and achieve some coupling. This works to a degree, but only in the frequencies that are produced in the horn. The other drivers don't couple as well and won't really help much. I think this is a more destructive way to do it. I would plan on using a delay line. Another set of 4 speakers placed in the crowed and timed to the stage will add volume to the back of the area with the same coverage. The only down side is running cables on the ground where people are walking, or sitting. It's not an easy task. You need more volume over a longer distance more than a wider area. You have the coverage needed for the width I think. What you don't have is enough to get you to the back of the listening area.

Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 08, 2013, 01:48:20 AM
*snip*
Am getting asked to do more and more "mission impossible" kind of stuff at really low budgets that's why i was asking for guidance.
Conrad

Oh, such a long, slippery slope, "give us more for the same (or less) money" can be! And that's where it gets challenging-- can you justify (or afford) to invest more money when the end client is trying to ask you to do more for the same amount of money? Or will there be a corresponding increase in the event budget when you increase the packages provided?

One of my long term clients (since 2007) is a parade here in Seattle. We started with Mackie SRM450s covering two viewing stands on their parade route. Over the years I changed the gear but still pretty much used the same level of gear, getting the same coverage... Changed 450s to 1521s one year, mixed in my EAW LA212 wedges another year... Same number of speakers, though. Last two years, we moved to fully flown speakers-- JBL VRX932s and AR4892s, flown from Genie ST24 tower lifts. Much better coverage, and quadrupled the linear coverage of the parade route (and this year we added a third viewing stand!), but the budget went up about 3x! But, I have other events that I am providing much better equipment and services, but cannot raise prices in fear of losing the gig. So, I have to manage their expectations properly. "For this amount, you will get XX services, but for this EXTRA amount, I can do YYY service!" In other words, "You can reduce the rate by this much, but you will lose these services."

Luke certainly makes a good suggestion-- adding delay stacks out in the audience. Properly delayed, it will really improve your coverage! Cable protection is important, and an investment in cable ramps from Checkers may well be worth it. I paid $130 each for a pile of them last summer, and they can be rented out for $10/each/day very easily. So, income from cross-rentals can help ease the purchase cost there.

Ray
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 08, 2013, 01:56:47 AM
Luke certainly makes a good suggestion-- adding delay stacks out in the audience. Properly delayed, it will really improve your coverage! Cable protection is important, and an investment in cable ramps from Checkers may well be worth it. I paid $130 each for a pile of them last summer, and they can be rented out for $10/each/day very easily. So, income from cross-rentals can help ease the purchase cost there.

Ray

Ray, note that Conrad is in Uganda, and in this case doing church work for very little money.  I bet he does better on a wedding DJ gig than he makes for a 3 day pray-fest.

I had a very different picture in my mind until he posted actual photos.  Most of my preconceived suggestions never left my head...
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Conrad Muzoora on February 08, 2013, 02:34:39 AM
Thanks everyone. As usual, this was very helpful. I won't be throwing away any hard earned money for some useless line array.

Am positive that a line of properly delayed more 4 qrxs should do the job fine and still earn me money for many other applications. Its a wonder what these little boxes have been able to do for me. They are no comparison to any of the 212 or 215 full range Chinese trash boxes that my competitors have in town!

Does anyone have any support for 4 qrx 212/75 or 153/75? As i said i have enough subs, will have a total of 6 qrx 218s and a bunch of other stuff. The trouble i have with the 212/153 is the weight and the fact that they cant be used for the regular "speaker on stick" kind of work, but if they are what i need to do this kind of work i will consider them.

Conrad
www.kooleventug.com
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Mark McFarlane on February 08, 2013, 02:43:10 AM
.... This year, it was 4 days long and i had them move the stage to the top of the hill as opposed to down in the valley as was done in the previous years and i think the height advantage helped...

Hi Conrad, I am curious why you put the stage at the top of the hill. This is the opposite of most setups I've seen, typically the audience is on the slope looking down on the stage.  Better visuals and I thought typically better acoustics.  What was the problem you were trying to solve?

I like the idea of delays for a crowd this big. Considering your location, you may be able to get someone to shallowly trench your speaker cables cheaply, or even  for free if there are volunteers for this event.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Conrad Muzoora on February 08, 2013, 02:52:15 AM
Hi Conrad, I am curious why you put the stage at the top of the hill. This is the opposite of most setups I've seen, typically the audience is on the slope looking down on the stage.  Better visuals and I thought typically better acoustics.  What was the problem you were trying to solve?

I like the idea of delays for a crowd this big. Considering your location, you may be able to get someone to shallowly trench your speaker cables cheaply, or even  for free if there are volunteers for this event.

Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. I understand the reasoning behind the stage issue. The previous stage was down in the valley, better visual but without a good sound system and a good way to fly them, i guessed the best way to get the speakers over people's heads (And the tarpaulin tents) was to get the stage higher up! At this function, hearing is 100x more important than sight and i had to make the best out of what i had.

I can surely get volunteers to dig trenches for the cable runs to the delay stacks.

Conrad
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Mark McFarlane on February 08, 2013, 03:11:13 AM
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. I understand the reasoning behind the stage issue. The previous stage was down in the valley, better visual but without a good sound system and a good way to fly them, i guessed the best way to get the speakers over people's heads (And the tarpaulin tents) was to get the stage higher up! At this function, hearing is 100x more important than sight and i had to make the best out of what i had.

I can surely get volunteers to dig trenches for the cable runs to the delay stacks.

Conrad

I can see where tents are problematic, still the problem seems the same whether you are on top of or at the bottom of the hill: the speakers need to be high enough to get over obstructions, but pointing either up or down at the crowd. Best of luck with the event, sounds exciting.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Mike Christy on February 08, 2013, 05:53:27 AM
Does anyone have any support for 4 qrx 212/75 or 153/75? As i said i have enough subs, will have a total of 6 qrx 218s and a bunch of other stuff. The trouble i have with the 212/153 is the weight and the fact that they cant be used for the regular "speaker on stick" kind of work, but if they are what i need to do this kind of work i will consider them.

Conrad, Im assuming you are asking about getting these up in the air. Ive had good luck with scaffolding - purchased at a home improvement center, or maybe you can rent some from a construction house? If you can't place the boxes on top of the subs (although with 6 subs I would think they would be high enough), scaffold works well. Just strap the boxes down - looped through the piping... Ill send photos if needed.

Best,
Mike
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Luke Geis on February 08, 2013, 04:38:13 PM
Another thing that comes to mind is the phenomenon where sound ( especially high frequencies ) actually rise up over distance from heat. This is why there is debate on whether mixing on risers is a good idea. It may be beneficial to place the stage back in the valley? It could be possible that lack of coverage is an issue from sound literally flying over peoples heads. I still think you will need the delay line, but just more food for thought to add to the mess.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Gabe Nahshon on February 09, 2013, 10:12:07 AM
Spend the 10K on something that will actually make a difference to these people, like educating them, feeding them, or teaching them some sustainable agriculture techniques.

Ok, I have heard nice things and not so nice about line arrays. I have been using 4 qrx 115s (2 per side) and 4 qrx 218 either center clustered or 2 per side. This has been mostly for shows of about 1000 heads outdoors. I plan to get bigger, mostly to cover larger crowns for spoken speech(May be up to 10,000) I care more about clear vocals and speech intelligibility.

I Have now purchased another pair of qrx218 subs to make 6 total and this am sure is enough bottom for the occasional DJ or recorded music playback, i would love a small portable line array  of 4 boxes per side that would significantly outperform my qrx 115 and throw much further.

I came across the Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy used and my budget is around 10K. I have enough amplification and processing (a bunch of qsc plx and rmx amps, dbx driveracks 260 and PA+)

Will 8 of these boxes do the job(4 per side) or are there others i should be looking at? Or am i better off with a delay stack of some more qrx115s at let say 200-300 feet?

Conrad
www.kooleventug.com
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 09, 2013, 01:08:34 PM
Conrad, like so many things it audio, "it depends".  Will too-short of a line benefit the whole coverage of the area as pictures?  Probably not, but this is a non-traditional setup and the client expectations are very different than those most of us are used to, so it depends.  Will the same product benefit your company in other ways for other events?  We don't know and it's probably a guess for you as well.

From a business standpoint, I'd be inclined to purchase more of what makes you money now or will allow you to do new, more profitable work you can't get now.  Purchasing specifically to do a gig that is not profitable now and unlikely to be profitable anytime soon, is a bad business decision.

For that reason I suggest doing a delay ring with more QRX.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Luke Geis on February 09, 2013, 04:53:24 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is my thought as well. Run with it......
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 10, 2013, 08:08:18 AM
Spend the 10K on something that will actually make a difference to these people, like educating them, feeding them, or teaching them some sustainable agriculture techniques.
With respect, this is a fairly offensive thing to say. Firstly, the same could be said of any of us in America - that we should sell all our sound gear to feed the poor. Secondly, Mr. Muzoora seems to already be doing charitable work for these people, and is simply trying to do a better job with the resources he has.
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Conrad Muzoora on February 10, 2013, 08:14:01 AM
Conrad, like so many things it audio, "it depends".  Will too-short of a line benefit the whole coverage of the area as pictures?  Probably not, but this is a non-traditional setup and the client expectations are very different than those most of us are used to, so it depends.  Will the same product benefit your company in other ways for other events?  We don't know and it's probably a guess for you as well.

From a business standpoint, I'd be inclined to purchase more of what makes you money now or will allow you to do new, more profitable work you can't get now.  Purchasing specifically to do a gig that is not profitable now and unlikely to be profitable anytime soon, is a bad business decision.

For that reason I suggest doing a delay ring with more QRX.

Noted,
There is a growing need for sound coverage for bigger and bigger events in my small town but they usually have a small budget so cant justify spending on "Big" line arrays. I have had to stretch my qrx 115s to do for more than they are designed for.

Prior to this post in the launge, i was strongly considering a small line array thinking that it would improve my capacity in providing for these growing shows but i now know better!
I have now zeroed on buying another 4 qrx 115 or 112s because i have plenty of use for these in my wedding / Dj business.

Thank you everyone for the very useful input.
Conrad

www.kooleventug.com
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Conrad Muzoora on February 10, 2013, 08:19:53 AM
With respect, this is a fairly offensive thing to say. Firstly, the same could be said of any of us in America - that we should sell all our sound gear to feed the poor. Secondly, Mr. Muzoora seems to already be doing charitable work for these people, and is simply trying to do a better job with the resources he has.
+1
These are not starving people, majority are some old folks coming to this church mission. Plenty of the young people in the pictures are in school but came to attend this annual event purely for spiritual reasons. Thanks everyone for objective input.

Conrad
www.kooleventug.com
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Conrad Muzoora on February 10, 2013, 08:23:14 AM
Conrad, Im assuming you are asking about getting these up in the air. Ive had good luck with scaffolding - purchased at a home improvement center, or maybe you can rent some from a construction house? If you can't place the boxes on top of the subs (although with 6 subs I would think they would be high enough), scaffold works well. Just strap the boxes down - looped through the piping... Ill send photos if needed.

Best,
Mike

Thanks Mike,
I sure could use some pictures on how to improvise scafolding.
Conrad
Title: Re: Line array upgrade: Sound Bridge - Xyon 7208 xy to replace my qrx 115/75
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 10, 2013, 08:48:12 PM
+1
These are not starving people, majority are some old folks coming to this church mission. Plenty of the young people in the pictures are in school but came to attend this annual event purely for spiritual reasons. Thanks everyone for objective input.

Conrad
www.kooleventug.com (http://www.kooleventug.com)

Kepp up the good work Conrad. ;)