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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Sam Wade on March 31, 2018, 08:49:24 PM
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Hey all! Been a long time reader on here, love the info, now I need some help.
I recently started playing worship music with some guys again, been playing for many years, and have done some studio work, but am now diving a little into the live sound setup. I got tired of using cheap old sound systems in the church sanctuaries and youth rooms ran by volunteers. So I’ve been buying some gear. So far I have:
Allen & Heath MixWizard WZ3
JBL PRX710 pair
JBL SRX718S (ran with a Crown XLS2500) Front center of stage.
This system has been sounding awesome for what we’ve been doing (Elevation Worship, Jesus Culture type stuff). I’ve been running the sub aux fed and pre-EQ and fader, running into the crown bridge mono and I have an 83 htz low pass filter it. Only putting kick and bass through (haven’t played anywhere large enough to mic toms). I like a big deep bass sound, punchy, feel in your chest, with some high end click in the mains.
Been running the mains with full range (since there is no EQ on the back panel), but high passing every channel and EQ-ing all lowend out of each channel (that description was clear as mud).
Anyways, we played a youth room this past Wednesday that was very ‘lively’. Concrete walls, high ceiling, NO acoustic panels. Needless to say the mix was pretty muddy. My biggest problem was my sub was ‘ringing out’ when hitting the kick (long decaying resonance), it wasnt a punchy sharp hit that it has been the other places we’ve played. Also the bass guitar would do this when he hit and A note.
So... my question, what do I need to fix these problem rooms since we’ll be encountering it again. I’ve been looking at the driverack PA2. I figured I needed some type of EQ for my sub( besides low pass on the crown) and mains in a room like that, but I had absolutely none.
I’m on a pretty tight budget, but could swing the driverack if it would do the job for me. I also kicked around the idea of ditching the A&H and getting a digital mixer (StudioLive, XR18) but I love the WZ3!
Sorry for the long post, trying to give all the info!
Thanks!
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Hey all! Been a long time reader on here, love the info, now I need some help.
I recently started playing worship music with some guys again, been playing for many years, and have done some studio work, but am now diving a little into the live sound setup. I got tired of using cheap old sound systems in the church sanctuaries and youth rooms ran by volunteers. So I’ve been buying some gear. So far I have:
Allen & Heath MixWizard WZ3
JBL PRX710 pair
JBL SRX718S (ran with a Crown XLS2500) Front center of stage.
This system has been sounding awesome for what we’ve been doing (Elevation Worship, Jesus Culture type stuff). I’ve been running the sub aux fed and pre-EQ and fader, running into the crown bridge mono and I have an 83 htz low pass filter it. Only putting kick and bass through (haven’t played anywhere large enough to mic toms). I like a big deep bass sound, punchy, feel in your chest, with some high end click in the mains.
Been running the mains with full range (since there is no EQ on the back panel), but high passing every channel and EQ-ing all lowend out of each channel (that description was clear as mud).
Anyways, we played a youth room this past Wednesday that was very ‘lively’. Concrete walls, high ceiling, NO acoustic panels. Needless to say the mix was pretty muddy. My biggest problem was my sub was ‘ringing out’ when hitting the kick, it was a punchy sharp this that it has been the other places we’ve played. Also the bass guitar would do this when he hit and A note.
So... my question, what do I need to fix these problem rooms since we’ll be encountering it again. I’ve been looking at the driverack PA2. I figured I needed some type of EQ for my sub, and mains in a room like that, but I had absolutely none.
I’m on a pretty tight budget, but could swing the driverack if it would do the job for me. I also kicked around the idea of ditching the A&H and getting a digital mixer (StudioLive, XR18) but I love the WZ3!
Sorry for the long post, trying to give all the info!
Thanks!
The best way to fix bad rooms is with a bulldozer.
For quick and dirty room tweaks to the EQ - a small digital mixer with output PEQ.
The ideal is a good DSP (not Driverack), time, SmaartLive, and a good knowledge of system alignment. This looks to be outside the time and cost scope of your current system, however.
Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
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Hey all! Been a long time reader on here, love the info, now I need some help.
I recently started playing worship music with some guys again, been playing for many years, and have done some studio work, but am now diving a little into the live sound setup. I got tired of using cheap old sound systems in the church sanctuaries and youth rooms ran by volunteers. So I’ve been buying some gear. So far I have:
Allen & Heath MixWizard WZ3
JBL PRX710 pair
JBL SRX718S (ran with a Crown XLS2500) Front center of stage.
This system has been sounding awesome for what we’ve been doing (Elevation Worship, Jesus Culture type stuff). I’ve been running the sub aux fed and pre-EQ and fader, running into the crown bridge mono and I have an 83 htz low pass filter it. Only putting kick and bass through (haven’t played anywhere large enough to mic toms). I like a big deep bass sound, punchy, feel in your chest, with some high end click in the mains.
Been running the mains with full range (since there is no EQ on the back panel), but high passing every channel and EQ-ing all lowend out of each channel (that description was clear as mud).
Anyways, we played a youth room this past Wednesday that was very ‘lively’. Concrete walls, high ceiling, NO acoustic panels. Needless to say the mix was pretty muddy. My biggest problem was my sub was ‘ringing out’ when hitting the kick (long decaying resonance), it wasnt a punchy sharp hit that it has been the other places we’ve played. Also the bass guitar would do this when he hit and A note.
So... my question, what do I need to fix these problem rooms since we’ll be encountering it again. I’ve been looking at the driverack PA2. I figured I needed some type of EQ for my sub( besides low pass on the crown) and mains in a room like that, but I had absolutely none.
I’m on a pretty tight budget, but could swing the driverack if it would do the job for me. I also kicked around the idea of ditching the A&H and getting a digital mixer (StudioLive, XR18) but I love the WZ3!
Sorry for the long post, trying to give all the info!
Thanks!
Actually the DBX Driverack Venue 360 is good and would do everything you need such as stereo mains and aux sub.
You can set up the 360 on a wifi network/router and walk around with a tablet as you adjust the EQ.
As for a digital mixer take a look at the Ui24,or stay in the Allen Heath family with a QU Pac or QU SB.
You do need an EQ, one on the mains and one for the subs since your doing aux subs.
In addition to that proper high pass filtering for the PRX710 since it appears not to have a "use with sub" mode selection.
You want to set up the XLS crossover mode for band pass, that way you set a high pass filter and low pass filter for the sub. Try 35hz for the high pass, your 83hz low pass is fine for now.
With a DSP or plain ole analog crossover on the system I would put around a 110hz high pass on the PRX710 and bump up the sub low pass to 90hz.
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Did you try just turning the aux send down? Lively rooms don’t do well with a lot if low end, though I agree that a suitable dsp will help by eliminating the unwanted lows of your prx710’s as well as proving some eq. That money would go a fair ways towards a digital desk that would already have those features.
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Thanks for the replies and suggestions so far!
I did try bringing down the aux sub, but was really unsatisfied with how it sounded when I got the ringing out (lows were pretty much non-existent).
So the Venu360 is that much better than the PA2. I’m not set on running an aux sub if I can have the system properly setup, but that 360 does look pretty good and I do like to have that option since the WZ3 is set up for running an aux sub from the mono fader.
Unfortunately the XLS2500 doesn’t have a band EQ. In bridge mono it can only do hi or lo pass filters on it. I’ve been wanting to stick a hi-pass on the sub around 35-40hz (someone else mentioned that could help with the resonance that I was getting). But had no way to do it. Which is one of the main reasons for looking at the driverack line.
Thanks again!
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Dump the MW. Great in it’s day, behind the times now. UI-24 would be a far better choice.
Dump the aux fed subs approach in favor of hi passing the channels you don’t want in the sub. Use the RTA on the ui-24 to help isolate the frequencies that are the cause of the boom. Channel by channel and on the mains.
Move the sub around and see if that mitigates or changes the boom. Use a tablet to walk the room for hot spots.
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Dump the aux fed subs approach in favor of hi passing the channels you don’t want in the sub.
If you know what you are doing, aux fed subs is a superior solution for cleaning up low end muck then a channel HPF on its own. See...one-aux-fed-sub-thread-per-month on this forum for the past 5 years.
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One of reasons everyone is suggesting a small digital mixer (Ui24) is that you can get by without the driverack because of the on-board eq on the outputs.
You get a lot of extras; PEQ, GEQ, mobility, FX, . . .
Phenomenal value and quality for the $.
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If you know what you are doing, aux fed subs is a superior solution for cleaning up low end muck then a channel HPF on its own. See...one-aux-fed-sub-thread-per-month on this forum for the past 5 years.
Actually I do know what I’m doing and have Aux fed subs programs in the BSS Mini Drives I use. I used them for quite a while. Almost never now though. As digital HPF implementations have gotten more sophisticated I find it easier to set those and not have to bring up or down 2 separate volumes to control my mains. Back in the days of the 80hz button, Aux fed for sure.
IMO - aux fed subs requires an understanding of the relative volumes of the subs and tops and what happens to your crossover point as volume changes only on one side... I think HPF is an easier get for a lot of folks.
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Actually I do know what I’m doing and have Aux fed subs programs in the BSS Mini Drives I use. I used them for quite a while. Almost never now though. As digital HPF implementations have gotten more sophisticated I find it easier to set those and not have to bring up or down 2 separate volumes to control my mains. Back in the days of the 80hz button, Aux fed for sure.
IMO - aux fed subs requires an understanding of the relative volumes of the subs and tops and what happens to your crossover point as volume changes only on one side... I think HPF is an easier get for a lot of folks.
Kind of depending on the nature of a system's use, eh? I'd use a different controller design for a performing arts center than for a convention space, which would be different from a house of worship (in their various flavors). Much depends on the needs of tenants/clients/owners and the level of technical and artistic expertise afforded by their crew. For a band running its own sound from stage? Different still.
In my little corner of the regional provider biz, the use of a full range or a subs-on-aux system is an artistic decision made by the headline BE/TD and it's up to my crew to provision and deploy the rig accordingly. There is no right or wrong, there is no consideration of the factors involved with installs or BRSFS (band running sound from stage), there is only the way the BE wants it.
When I'm mixing I like subs on aux for the creative control I can get with relatively few control changes. That said, I like my systems to be linear at some identifiable control positions (say, -3 on subs and -0- on mains) so I can restore to a known system voice.
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One of reasons everyone is suggesting a small digital mixer (Ui24) is that you can get by without the driverack because of the on-board eq on the outputs.
You get a lot of extras; PEQ, GEQ, mobility, FX, . . .
Phenomenal value and quality for the $.
Yeah, I’m gathering that. And to be honest, I can probably unload the WZ3 on Craigslist, add the money it would take to buy the driverack (even B stock eBay), and buy the Ui24 (or something around that 1k mark). I’d have to pick up an iPad or talk my wife into letting me use her MacBook :o
I just haven’t been sold on the iPad based mixers yet. My buddy has a XR18 and loves it, but I’ve always been a fader and knob guy. Maybe it’s time to get with the program?
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Yeah, I’m gathering that. And to be honest, I can probably unload the WZ3 on Craigslist, add the money it would take to buy the driverack (even B stock eBay), and buy the Ui24 (or something around that 1k mark). I’d have to pick up an iPad or talk my wife into letting me use her MacBook :o
I just haven’t been sold on the iPad based mixers yet. My buddy has a XR18 and loves it, but I’ve always been a fader and knob guy. Maybe it’s time to get with the program?
I like the tablet/pad/phone approach for everything except mixing a show. Setup, sound checks, EQing monitor mixes... fabulous and time saving. But I'm an Olde Skool Analogue guy at heart and I like physical faders for mixing the show.
I recently got a B stock Behringer Touch Mix to give me some knobs and faders for my X32Rack. Now I have physical controls, a wired network laptop and wireless Android tablet. Flexibility and redundancy on the control side for sure.
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Unfortunately the XLS2500 doesn’t have a band EQ. In bridge mono it can only do hi or lo pass filters on it. I’ve been wanting to stick a hi-pass on the sub around 35-40hz (someone else mentioned that could help with the resonance that I was getting). But had no way to do it. Which is one of the main reasons for looking at the driverack line.
Thanks again!
Your right, it's the newer XLX 02 series that have the option for a band pass filter.
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One of reasons everyone is suggesting a small digital mixer (Ui24) is that you can get by without the driverack because of the on-board eq on the outputs.
You get a lot of extras; PEQ, GEQ, mobility, FX, . . .
Phenomenal value and quality for the $.
The UI24 is a nice box mixer and the Ui series browser interface is really good.
I would suggest still suggest using an outboard crossover/DSP.
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Hey all! Been a long time reader on here, love the info, now I need some help.
I recently started playing worship music with some guys again, been playing for many years, and have done some studio work, but am now diving a little into the live sound setup. I got tired of using cheap old sound systems in the church sanctuaries and youth rooms ran by volunteers. So I’ve been buying some gear. So far I have:
Allen & Heath MixWizard WZ3
JBL PRX710 pair
JBL SRX718S (ran with a Crown XLS2500) Front center of stage.
This system has been sounding awesome for what we’ve been doing (Elevation Worship, Jesus Culture type stuff). I’ve been running the sub aux fed and pre-EQ and fader, running into the crown bridge mono and I have an 83 htz low pass filter it. Only putting kick and bass through (haven’t played anywhere large enough to mic toms). I like a big deep bass sound, punchy, feel in your chest, with some high end click in the mains.
Been running the mains with full range (since there is no EQ on the back panel), but high passing every channel and EQ-ing all lowend out of each channel (that description was clear as mud).
Anyways, we played a youth room this past Wednesday that was very ‘lively’. Concrete walls, high ceiling, NO acoustic panels. Needless to say the mix was pretty muddy. My biggest problem was my sub was ‘ringing out’ when hitting the kick (long decaying resonance), it wasnt a punchy sharp hit that it has been the other places we’ve played. Also the bass guitar would do this when he hit and A note.
So... my question, what do I need to fix these problem rooms since we’ll be encountering it again. I’ve been looking at the driverack PA2. I figured I needed some type of EQ for my sub( besides low pass on the crown) and mains in a room like that, but I had absolutely none.
I’m on a pretty tight budget, but could swing the driverack if it would do the job for me. I also kicked around the idea of ditching the A&H and getting a digital mixer (StudioLive, XR18) but I love the WZ3!
Sorry for the long post, trying to give all the info!
Thanks!
As an analog guy I used Mixwixards for years...love'em...still do, however, in an attempt to keep up with current tech, I added an QU-16 in place of my Mixwiz. After using it for a couple of years I added a QU-24...
No separate rack mounted compressors/gates/EQ's....
The QU series was a fairly easy transition from the Mizwiz (almost like a digi Mixwiz).
The biggest deal: no snake!!! I set the mixer up on the side of the stage (or outdoor church alter), get a rough mix, and then tweak things using an iPad mini.
Once you get used to working with pages on the pad you'll be all set.
I for one cannot totally put my faith in a digi mixer with no faders...
Look on your local craigslist as QU's are being sold 2nd hand as people have been moving from the QU to the newest A&H offering.....or go for A&H's latest'n greatest.
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I for one cannot totally put my faith in a digi mixer with no faders...
I can kind of get that, though I do use a Ui16 for small events where for what it does is all I need!
I use an Allen Heath QU-Pac for most everything else, if I need for than 16 channels I use either the AB168 and or the AR2412 stage box.
With the QU-Pac you can operate the mixer using the front panel touch screen.
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OP said his biggest problem was a ringing kick drum. Put a gate on it. Which either means buying an outboard one and using it in an insert on the MW, or getting a modern digital mixer where it and all kinds of other toys are built in. But in a very live room, gate any low end drum, kick, floor tom, even large rack toms. The overhang in the room will provide the sustain.
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No one here has veered away from talking about what “gear” will fix a lively room, unless I have missed something.
What I would invest in would be a whole load of heavy drapes and equipment to hang them from. Hung drapes will help to deaden the room not only at high frequencies but by them being loosely hung, they will help to control the lows by acting as a panel absorber. You would need to hang them a bit away from the walls and around the back of the staging area too. Get it in black and it will look good too. You could even turn some of it in to starcloth!
EQ is all well and good but it is something that operates in the time dimension so it’s not always correct to use it.
Just my 2p
P.s you could always hire it and see if it improves matters. I remember going to gigs in sports centres where this had been done even back in the 90s at Noel Richards concerts.
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No one here has veered away from talking about what “gear” will fix a lively room, unless I have missed something.
What I would invest in would be a whole load of heavy drapes and equipment to hang them from. Hung drapes will help to deaden the room not only at high frequencies but by them being loosely hung, they will help to control the lows by acting as a panel absorber. You would need to hang them a bit away from the walls and around the back of the staging area too. Get it in black and it will look good too. You could even turn some of it in to starcloth!
EQ is all well and good but it is something that operates in the time dimension so it’s not always correct to use it.
Just my 2p
P.s you could always hire it and see if it improves matters. I remember going to gigs in sports centres where this had been done even back in the 90s at Noel Richards concerts.
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Unless I have misunderstood the OP's circumstances, he doesn't have a fixed venue in which he performs. While acoustic treatment of a room is the best solution, I suspect that it isn't very practical to travel from place to place with enough pipe and heavy drape to help treat whatever venue he finds himself in.
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Coming from a MixWiz I would get a Qu16 or Expression 1. Folks here love mixing on iPads but the transition from an analog control surface to poking though menus on a tablet can be daunting. Both will have ready gate controls that can be put on anything like a kick drum that's got too much overhang in a room. You can't kill all of it like you could with a ton of pipe and drape, but it will help immensely. And it is the same form factor as the OP is used to. Although I now walk around with my iPad once I have a basic mix down, I still like having the quick access of a control surface to get there. The iPad is great for ringing out monitors and line checks in a one man operation. And it allows you to tweak while walking the venue to optimize things. A rack size Qu or Expression would be the best of both worlds for the OP.
I keep thinking of getting a Ui or similar. Only most of the time such a thing would be useful to me would be in small bars when I'm also playing. And for tactical reaction mixing I prefer one knob to grab. I sold my MixWiz awhile back so I have 6 and 16 channel Yamaha MXs which are smaller and lighter. I give up all the extra goodies but I have that 'one knob to grab' when I need it.
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I entirely agree with the gate option. Honestly it's the cleanest way to fix the problem, also the cheapest.
A note on aux fed subs, I wouldn't necessarily run aux fed but mono fed that is linked to the main L&R output.(see note above about crossover points, this is an amazing compromise) Aux fed subs would only work correctly if your subs are correctly phase aligned with the mains and the mains are running full range so there will be no crossover point to deal with, in that situation the kick in your chest from the kick and bass should be dialled in with the aux and the actual tone should be dialled in with the eq. This should also help with the bad EQ techniques on boosting a ton of low end on the kick channel.
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Unless I have misunderstood the OP's circumstances, he doesn't have a fixed venue in which he performs. While acoustic treatment of a room is the best solution, I suspect that it isn't very practical to travel from place to place with enough pipe and heavy drape to help treat whatever venue he finds himself in.
I know what you mean and that’s why I added the bit about hiring it to see it’s effectiveness.
You will have to excuse me as my day job is acoustic consultancy and I know that no amount of gear is going to solve an inappropriate or bad venue, though I appreciate that there are tools that can help such as graphics and the like.
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Unless I have misunderstood the OP's circumstances, he doesn't have a fixed venue in which he performs. While acoustic treatment of a room is the best solution, I suspect that it isn't very practical to travel from place to place with enough pipe and heavy drape to help treat whatever venue he finds himself in.
If I'm not mistaken on the last few Barbra Streisand tours they carried acoustical room treatment for the venues.
I guess if budget is not a concern you can carry a semi or two of room treatment!!
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If I'm not mistaken on the last few Barbra Streisand tours they carried acoustical room treatment for the venues.
I guess if budget is not a concern you can carry a semi or two of room treatment!!
One tour for an act I wont name... 2 53ft trailers of dressing room furnishings and decor for name artist and band. Catering was by Dega and they tricked out the dining room, too.
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One tour for an act I wont name... 2 53ft trailers of dressing room furnishings and decor for name artist and band. Catering was by Dega and they tricked out the dining room, too.
And people wonder why ticket prices are so damn high...... :'(
Chris.
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It sounds like you play in the band and also run sound - if so, I'd work to make your setup as simple as possible. Ditch your analog mixer and get a digital one with parametric EQ - way easier to sculpt sounds, do real HPF filtering, and have room EQ set.
As for aux subs, I tried it for a while, but when running sound while playing, it's another thing to remember. Better to have just the channel fader to worry about and use digital EQ on your new board to HPF what doesn't need to be in the sub.
Less thinking, more playing. I even sold off the 5 Audix tom mics I had bought as I realized 2 OH mics (hi-hat, over the shoulder) was fine and less mixing for me to worry about, and it still sounded great.