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Title: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on March 29, 2017, 05:58:39 pm
I've heard so many great things about the SM80 and TH118 combination.  I know it's excellent for live performances.  I've heard Ivan talk about how the SM80 performs well for EDM/Bass Music when paired with various Danley subs.  I don't think I've heard anyone specifically talk about how it performs with techno and house music.  If anyone has experience with this setup and this kind of music I'd be grateful for their feedback. 

We've been doing events at a venue with its own sound system.  The venue is currently using 4 x Yorkville U15 tops and 4 x Yorkville TX9S Subs.  I'm wondering if someone could help me understand how the 2 x SM80/ 2x TH118 system would compare in terms of sound characteristics, SPL, etc.  I'm looking for clear, clean sound that's easy on the ears but still satisfying for techno fans.  Will our audience appreciate the Danley sound after getting accustomed to this kind of Yorkville setup?
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Doug Fowler on March 29, 2017, 06:22:26 pm
I've heard so many great things about the SM80 and TH118 combination.  I know it's excellent for live performances.  I've heard Ivan talk about how the SM80 performs well for EDM/Bass Music when paired with various Danley subs.  I don't think I've heard anyone specifically talk about how it performs with techno and house music.  If anyone has experience with this setup and this kind of music I'd be grateful for their feedback. 

We've been doing events at a venue with its own sound system.  The venue is currently using 4 x Yorkville U15 tops and 4 x Yorkville TX9S Subs.  I'm wondering if someone could help me understand how the 2 x SM80/ 2x TH118 system would compare in terms of sound characteristics, SPL, etc.  I'm looking for clear, clean sound that's easy on the ears but still satisfying for techno fans.  Will our audience appreciate the Danley sound after getting accustomed to this kind of Yorkville setup?

You will need 2x TH118 per SM80.   Because the SM80 does not go low at all, you will have to set the sub LPF higher than "normal".

A better solution is the new SM80F.  One of these sitting on a tall sub should be an impressive stack.

Will your audience appreciate it?  Who knows?

There is an active thread about SM80F, check it out.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 29, 2017, 08:57:34 pm
The nice thing about a system that "doesn't have a sound of its own" is that it works great with anything that you put through it.

When a system has a "particular sound", then it can be limited on what it can be used for.

That is why some systems get "pigeon holed" for a particular Genre of music, while others find wide acceptance for all sorts of usages and styles.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on March 29, 2017, 11:34:35 pm
Thanks!  I just spent the last half hour reading that thread.  The SM80F looks very interesting.  I think it's going to be a hit as a high end DJ monitor.  Reminds me a lot of the Funktion-One PSM318.  http://www.funktion-one.com/products/psm318-dj-monitor/

Am I correct that the double 15'' subs would provide a better punch for kick drums than a PG118 despite having a little less overall output?  I do really like the idea of pole mounting the SM80 since we would be bringing this system out to shows. 



 



 
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Uniz Kazz on March 30, 2017, 01:41:27 am
About 100% of the time that I've deployed the system it's been used for Dj applications and always house and techno as EDM has not taken off in my area. It performs incredibly well, nothing but compliments throughout the night, expect people to come up to you (sometimes multiple times) a night to comment on how good the sound is. I would definitely pair 2xTh118 a side per SM80, as the subs will run out of gas before the tops do.


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Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 30, 2017, 07:34:50 am
Thanks!  I just spent the last half hour reading that thread.  The SM80F looks very interesting.  I think it's going to be a hit as a high end DJ monitor.  Reminds me a lot of the Funktion-One PSM318.  http://www.funktion-one.com/products/psm318-dj-monitor/

Am I correct that the double 15'' subs would provide a better punch for kick drums than a PG118 despite having a little less overall output?  I do really like the idea of pole mounting the SM80 since we would be bringing this system out to shows.
Actually the SM80F has the output of 2 PG118s (in the range that the SM80 operates).

The PG118s go lower.

The specs don't "appear" to be as loud as a pair of PG118s.

But this is where the "simple numbers" get people in trouble.

The PG118 is a subs, and as such it is measured in half space.

Since the SM80F is a full range cabinet, it is measured in whole space.

The whole space measurement (specifically on the lower freq) is 6dB lower than if the same cabinet was measured in half space.

So if the SM80F is on or near the ground, the LF will actually be 6dB louder than indicated on the spec sheet.

I have confirmed both the measurements and listening tests, and they agree with each other.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on March 30, 2017, 11:06:58 am
About 100% of the time that I've deployed the system it's been used for Dj applications and always house and techno as EDM has not taken off in my area. It performs incredibly well, nothing but compliments throughout the night, expect people to come up to you (sometimes multiple times) a night to comment on how good the sound is. I would definitely pair 2xTh118 a side per SM80, as the subs will run out of gas before the tops do.


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Thank you, Uniz.  Great to hear it confirmed this rig goes over well with a house/techno crowd.  What route did you go to power the 4 subs and 2 tops?  The DNA20K4PRO looks like a great 4 channel amp.  When looking at powering 5th and 6th cabinet in the system things seem a bit less clear to me.

Actually the SM80F has the output of 2 PG118s (in the range that the SM80 operates).

The PG118s go lower.

The specs don't "appear" to be as loud as a pair of PG118s.

But this is where the "simple numbers" get people in trouble.

The PG118 is a subs, and as such it is measured in half space.

Since the SM80F is a full range cabinet, it is measured in whole space.

The whole space measurement (specifically on the lower freq) is 6dB lower than if the same cabinet was measured in half space.

So if the SM80F is on or near the ground, the LF will actually be 6dB louder than indicated on the spec sheet.

I have confirmed both the measurements and listening tests, and they agree with each other.

That's a remarkable amount of sound coming out of one cabinet that's not that much larger than a single 18'' sub!  I also love that a pair of SM80F can run off a single DNA20K4PRO.  What do you think is the optimal height to have these at when the room is full of people?  Do you think they would get that 6dB LF bump if they were placed on top of a sturdy wooden box?
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Uniz Kazz on March 30, 2017, 11:18:35 am
Everything is powered by a single DNA20K amp. Using the Podware (the software) is very simple and straight forward. You simply download the Master Preset Stack from the Danley website and load it in as the factory setting, it actually stores them all within the amp. Then it's a simple matter of plugging and playing (and x-over and gain) changing depending on your setup on site if required. I highly suggest you go with the DNA, it performs great and has all the power and dsp you require.


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Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Lance Hallmark on March 30, 2017, 12:24:26 pm
Can't go wrong with the Danley rig, it will sound great, though as noted, you will have to run the subs higher than you normally would as the SM80 doesn't go that low. The new SM80F resolves that, making it a true 4 way system. Can't wait to hear that setup at Infocomm this summer in Orlando. I play a lot of House and Techno as well and I ended up going with the JTR Noesis 3TX over Orbit Shifter subs last year as I wanted a true 4 way system. I've been very pleased with my rig - I think both setups give you very high quality sound & output.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 30, 2017, 06:58:47 pm


That's a remarkable amount of sound coming out of one cabinet that's not that much larger than a single 18'' sub!  I also love that a pair of SM80F can run off a single DNA20K4PRO.  What do you think is the optimal height to have these at when the room is full of people?  Do you think they would get that 6dB LF bump if they were placed on top of a sturdy wooden box?
The SM80F is no different than any other cabinet in regards to height.

You need to get the HF (and hopefully the mids) above peoples heads.

In the SM80F, the mids and highs (on the same horn) are in the top of the cabinet-so that helps.

7-8' would be a great "target" for the upper part of the cabinet.

When we do demos, we usually put it on a 3' tall road case.  Yes, that is not high enough for a "crowd", but it is fine for demos and is easy to get up that high.

Because of where the handles are, 2 decent "roadies" (myself included) can lift it to a height of 45".  Above that gets a bit harder.

When you listen, YOU are in a ground plane situation-so as far as a person is concerned, it does not matter if the cabinet is on the ground or in the air.
You will still get the "ground plane" gain.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on April 02, 2017, 03:28:52 pm
The SM80F is no different than any other cabinet in regards to height.

You need to get the HF (and hopefully the mids) above peoples heads.

In the SM80F, the mids and highs (on the same horn) are in the top of the cabinet-so that helps.

7-8' would be a great "target" for the upper part of the cabinet.

When we do demos, we usually put it on a 3' tall road case.  Yes, that is not high enough for a "crowd", but it is fine for demos and is easy to get up that high.

Because of where the handles are, 2 decent "roadies" (myself included) can lift it to a height of 45".  Above that gets a bit harder.

When you listen, YOU are in a ground plane situation-so as far as a person is concerned, it does not matter if the cabinet is on the ground or in the air.
You will still get the "ground plane" gain.

Thanks, Ivan.  That's great info. 

Have you guys found a particular Danley sub setup that that you think pairs particularly well with a pair of SM80F speakers?  The PG118 and TH118 seem like good ways to go because they're more portable but is there another route that's going to do it significantly better or more economically?
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on April 02, 2017, 03:41:11 pm
Everything is powered by a single DNA20K amp. Using the Podware (the software) is very simple and straight forward. You simply download the Master Preset Stack from the Danley website and load it in as the factory setting, it actually stores them all within the amp. Then it's a simple matter of plugging and playing (and x-over and gain) changing depending on your setup on site if required. I highly suggest you go with the DNA, it performs great and has all the power and dsp you require.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok, thanks for clarifying that for me.  That makes getting the system up to 4 subs much less financially daunting than I had thought it would be.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 02, 2017, 08:01:59 pm
Thanks, Ivan.  That's great info. 

Have you guys found a particular Danley sub setup that that you think pairs particularly well with a pair of SM80F speakers?  The PG118 and TH118 seem like good ways to go because they're more portable but is there another route that's going to do it significantly better or more economically?
The best sub cabinet for the SM80F is the DBH218.

The skids on the SM80F line up with the skids of the DBH218 (when the SM80F is laying on its side).

The PG118 goes lower than the TH118-and it is a larger cabinet.

It is also the width as the SM80F (when it is laying on its side), but the skids are in different places.  They are different lines.

Of course is the SM80F is flown, the skids don't matter.

Either the PG118 or the DBH218 or PG218 would make fine companions.

It will take several of any of these subs to keep up with the SM80F when run full tilt.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on April 03, 2017, 10:53:17 am
The best sub cabinet for the SM80F is the DBH218.

The skids on the SM80F line up with the skids of the DBH218 (when the SM80F is laying on its side).

The PG118 goes lower than the TH118-and it is a larger cabinet.

It is also the width as the SM80F (when it is laying on its side), but the skids are in different places.  They are different lines.

Of course is the SM80F is flown, the skids don't matter.

Either the PG118 or the DBH218 or PG218 would make fine companions.

It will take several of any of these subs to keep up with the SM80F when run full tilt.

Awesome, thank you.  So it sounds like maybe I should start out with 2 x SM80 with 4 x PG118.  Then later on I could get go for 2 x SM80F and I would have a sick 4 way setup with the SM80s acting as fills or monitors. 

Thanks to everyone for the great replies!
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 03, 2017, 12:54:25 pm
Awesome, thank you.  So it sounds like maybe I should start out with 2 x SM80 with 4 x PG118.  Then later on I could get go for 2 x SM80F and I would have a sick 4 way setup with the SM80s acting as fills or monitors. 

Thanks to everyone for the great replies!
The SM80F is not exactly what I would choose for a "portable"  setup.

Unless it was for drum or sidefill monitors on a large stage or DJ speakers.

Things that don't have to get the HF very high in the air.

For most "normal uses" it would be much easier to get regular SM80s up above peoples heads.

We have used the K&M crank up poles with extensions to get them pretty high-easily.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on April 03, 2017, 01:31:13 pm
The SM80F is not exactly what I would choose for a "portable"  setup.

Unless it was for drum or sidefill monitors on a large stage or DJ speakers.

Things that don't have to get the HF very high in the air.

For most "normal uses" it would be much easier to get regular SM80s up above peoples heads.

We have used the K&M crank up poles with extensions to get them pretty high-easily.

Yes, that's sort of what I'm thinking as well.  I like the flexibility that I'd get from the SM80 on a pole mount.  It could scale down well for all kinds intimate events like after parties, etc. 

The dream would be to also add a THmini or two for times where I didn't want to transport the PG118s.  Then I could have a real micro system that one person could handle easily for maximum flexibility.  THmini would also be nice to put in the DJ booth if I was going to use the SM80s as monitors. 

But eventually when I had the money and had the logistics more figured out I could take the system to another level with the SM80F. 

Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Tamar Ghobria on April 08, 2017, 09:23:09 pm
I have (4) Sm 80 tops and (4) of the TH 118 subs...The tops definitely outrun the subs....We do a lot of dj playback, EDM, Hip hop etc.....One thing I here is people being so used to schrill ear piercing sound that they think the danley is not loud enough...Especially the JBL, RCF users....I am using Powersoft K20s btw...


Yes, that's sort of what I'm thinking as well.  I like the flexibility that I'd get from the SM80 on a pole mount.  It could scale down well for all kinds intimate events like after parties, etc. 

The dream would be to also add a THmini or two for times where I didn't want to transport the PG118s.  Then I could have a real micro system that one person could handle easily for maximum flexibility.  THmini would also be nice to put in the DJ booth if I was going to use the SM80s as monitors. 

But eventually when I had the money and had the logistics more figured out I could take the system to another level with the SM80F.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on April 09, 2017, 03:02:21 pm
I have (4) Sm 80 tops and (4) of the TH 118 subs...The tops definitely outrun the subs....We do a lot of dj playback, EDM, Hip hop etc.....One thing I here is people being so used to schrill ear piercing sound that they think the danley is not loud enough...Especially the JBL, RCF users....I am using Powersoft K20s btw...

Thanks for your feedback, Tamar.  That's definitely something I worry about.  A lot of the small room systems I hear in my town have 4 x 15'' 2 way tops and usually 4 x double 18'' front loaded subs or more.  You get a ton of low-mids and heavy, somewhat monotone low end bass.  The detail in the music isn't very intelligible but I think people have started to get used to this particular kind of distorted sound. 
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Uniz Kazz on April 09, 2017, 03:32:27 pm
Thanks for your feedback, Tamar.  That's definitely something I worry about.  A lot of the small room systems I hear in my town have 4 x 15'' 2 way tops and usually 4 x double 18'' front loaded subs or more.  You get a ton of low-mids and heavy, somewhat monotone low end bass.  The detail in the music isn't very intelligible but I think people have started to get used to this particular kind of distorted sound.

I had the same worry before I got my Danley rig. What was amazing other than continues compliments on how good the sound was, quite a few people throughout every night make it a point to let me know just how 'unfatiguing' the sound was. I get calls next day or at the next event how they didn't have any ringing in their ears and how much they appreciated it. People end up just FEELING better throughout the night because there isn't that piercing sound that's been annoying their subconscious and they end up partying longer and just having a better night. They DO become aware that it's the sound system they have to thank.


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Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Tamar Ghobria on April 09, 2017, 04:58:54 pm
Thanks for your feedback, Tamar.  That's definitely something I worry about.  A lot of the small room systems I hear in my town have 4 x 15'' 2 way tops and usually 4 x double 18'' front loaded subs or more.  You get a ton of low-mids and heavy, somewhat monotone low end bass.  The detail in the music isn't very intelligible but I think people have started to get used to this particular kind of distorted sound.

To be clear I don't regret my purchase...I am actually looking to buy SH 46's in the future...You can always eq to make it sound closer to your clients needs....You won't find many guys out there unahppy with Danley
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 09, 2017, 08:44:08 pm
I had the same worry before I got my Danley rig. What was amazing other than continues compliments on how good the sound was, quite a few people throughout every night make it a point to let me know just how 'unfatiguing' the sound was. I get calls next day or at the next event how they didn't have any ringing in their ears and how much they appreciated it. People end up just FEELING better throughout the night because there isn't that piercing sound that's been annoying their subconscious and they end up partying longer and just having a better night. They DO become aware that it's the sound system they have to thank.


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I have been to quite a few events in which there was "plenty of PA", but yet the levels were lower than "normal"

The only thing I can think of is that they are "getting the feeling" and clarity at lower levels-so they don't run it as loud "trying to get the sound".

I could be wrong, but have seen this happen quite a bit with different types of music.

There must be something to that.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Uniz Kazz on April 10, 2017, 03:39:08 am
I have been to quite a few events in which there was "plenty of PA", but yet the levels were lower than "normal"

The only thing I can think of is that they are "getting the feeling" and clarity at lower levels-so they don't run it as loud "trying to get the sound".

I could be wrong, but have seen this happen quite a bit with different types of music.

There must be something to that.

This is also true. I honestly think it has more to do with the genre. Since I'm mostly deploying a dj setup, they crowd there just wants MORE of it because it's part of the experience. With live music, you tend to require less because the system is able to project the sound with such fidelity that all the instruments and vocals are clearly heard. Of course if it's hard rock/ metal, having it loud is also part of the experience.


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Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 10, 2017, 07:08:03 am
This is also true. I honestly think it has more to do with the genre. Since I'm mostly deploying a dj setup, they crowd there just wants MORE of it because it's part of the experience. With live music, you tend to require less because the system is able to project the sound with such fidelity that all the instruments and vocals are clearly heard. Of course if it's hard rock/ metal, having it loud is also part of the experience.


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Actually I have done a number of DJ/dance events in which I told the "powers that be" that we had more SPL left, but they did not want it any louder. 

It was already "doing the job".

It is strange when people experience something they haven't before.

Certain "assumptions" no longer apply.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on April 13, 2017, 04:40:10 pm
I had the same worry before I got my Danley rig. What was amazing other than continues compliments on how good the sound was, quite a few people throughout every night make it a point to let me know just how 'unfatiguing' the sound was. I get calls next day or at the next event how they didn't have any ringing in their ears and how much they appreciated it. People end up just FEELING better throughout the night because there isn't that piercing sound that's been annoying their subconscious and they end up partying longer and just having a better night. They DO become aware that it's the sound system they have to thank.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I get what you are saying about people appreciating that the sound isn't punishing.  At our last event we hired a good sound guy and he was on the dance floor most of the night with his tablet watching the levels. 

I've been to a few other shows at this same venue where the sound wasn't being managed very well and things got too loud for my taste.  When people's ears are comfortable it creates a much better vibe at the show and the room stays full.  We're also bringing in artists that a 30s crowd will get excited for and I think they like good sound more than just loud sound compared to a younger audience.

We're looking for sound that's clear, warm, punchy, still satisfying, but where a person can actually talk to someone next to them without screaming. 
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 13, 2017, 04:52:53 pm
  When people's ears are comfortable it creates a much better vibe at the show and the room stays full.  We're also bringing in artists that a 30s crowd will get excited for and I think they like good sound more than just loud sound compared to a younger audience.


And that crowd spends more MONEY!

When it gets to loud for bartenders to hear, drink sales slow down and suffer.

THAT is where most venues make their money.  You don't want to mess with the drink sales
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Uniz Kazz on April 13, 2017, 04:56:50 pm
I get what you are saying about people appreciating that the sound isn't punishing.  At our last event we hired a good sound guy and he was on the dance floor most of the night with his tablet watching the levels. 

I've been to a few other shows at this same venue where the sound wasn't being managed very well and things got too loud for my taste.  When people's ears are comfortable it creates a much better vibe at the show and the room stays full.  We're also bringing in artists that a 30s crowd will get excited for and I think they like good sound more than just loud sound compared to a younger audience.

We're looking for sound that's clear, warm, punchy, still satisfying, but where a person can actually talk to someone next to them without screaming.

Yeah I'm catering to that same age group here as well. They're so surprised that they can hear each other speak even at loud volumes. You get asked what 'voodoo magic' is in the speakers lol.


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Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on April 13, 2017, 05:30:25 pm
And that crowd spends more MONEY!

When it gets to loud for bartenders to hear, drink sales slow down and suffer.

THAT is where most venues make their money.  You don't want to mess with the drink sales

For sure.  The venue manager was very happy with the crowd and wanted to do another show as soon as possible.  Currently we're renting the space and taking the door sales while the venue keeps the drink sales.  Once we have our own system we'll be looking to also find a space where we can do regular events, get a liquor license and run the bar as well.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 13, 2017, 07:27:24 pm
Yeah I'm catering to that same age group here as well. They're so surprised that they can hear each other speak even at loud volumes. You get asked what 'voodoo magic' is in the speakers lol.


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I was doing a large show about a month or so ago.

The local crew was REAL REAL skeptical about the use of 1 cabinet per side, when the "normal system in that room was 12-16 cabinets per side.

When we fired it up, one of the guys was at FOH and he said "WOW-I can't believe how LOUD it is, and you can still talk.  You CAN'T do that with a "XYZ (very popular brand) line array.

He was an instant believer.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Randy Pence on April 13, 2017, 08:47:16 pm
And that crowd spends more MONEY!

When it gets to loud for bartenders to hear, drink sales slow down and suffer.

THAT is where most venues make their money.  You don't want to mess with the drink sales

They'll stick around to buy more drinks if they physically feel more comfortable.  I think bad loud sound also makes people more likely to have an urge to go somewhere else and puts those more inclined to fight to get aggressive.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Tamar Ghobria on April 16, 2017, 02:44:52 pm
XYZ loudspeakers are the worst...

I was doing a large show about a month or so ago.

The local crew was REAL REAL skeptical about the use of 1 cabinet per side, when the "normal system in that room was 12-16 cabinets per side.

When we fired it up, one of the guys was at FOH and he said "WOW-I can't believe how LOUD it is, and you can still talk.  You CAN'T do that with a "XYZ (very popular brand) line array.

He was an instant believer.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Tamar Ghobria on April 16, 2017, 02:45:45 pm
What speakers did you use? How many people?


I was doing a large show about a month or so ago.

The local crew was REAL REAL skeptical about the use of 1 cabinet per side, when the "normal system in that room was 12-16 cabinets per side.

When we fired it up, one of the guys was at FOH and he said "WOW-I can't believe how LOUD it is, and you can still talk.  You CAN'T do that with a "XYZ (very popular brand) line array.

He was an instant believer.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 16, 2017, 05:20:02 pm
What speakers did you use? How many people?
The main PA was a single J3-94 per side.  We used 2 SM100s for front fills.

The subs were 2 BC415s on each side and 6 PG218s in the middle.

I am not sure how many people, but the venue was an old Amory that took up a full city block.

Here is a link to a video near the back of the venue.

https://www.facebook.com/ivan.beaver/videos/1603404466355593/

Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Nathan Riddle on April 21, 2017, 11:59:33 pm
The main PA was a single J3-94 per side.  We used 2 SM100s for front fills.

The subs were 2 BC415s on each side and 6 PG218s in the middle.

I am not sure how many people, but the venue was an old Amory that took up a full city block.

Here is a link to a video near the back of the venue.

https://www.facebook.com/ivan.beaver/videos/1603404466355593/

Not trying to threadjack, but how does one run different subs in this configuration?
Usually its frowned upon, correct?
I should probably look at the phase responses, or better yet model it lol
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 22, 2017, 10:08:18 am
Not trying to threadjack, but how does one run different subs in this configuration?
Usually its frowned upon, correct?
I should probably look at the phase responses, or better yet model it lol
Yes running different subs is "usually" a bad idea.

This is because of the different phase response.  So some freq might get louder while others will get quieter.

The BEST way is not to model them (the models only show show much and phase response of different models is not part of the model data-which is the MOST IMPORTANT part in this case), but rather to actually MEASURE them together.

That is what I did.  I put them together, measured, looked at the phase response, the delay times inside the cabinets etc.

Once I saw that they would play well together side by side (with a little delay only), then I could put that information into the model for the room.

The reason for using the different subs in this cases was simply-that is what the provider owned.

So I came up with a configuration that provided a good coverage for the space.

The actual results (the stuff that REALLY matters) was stunned looks from everybody there about how much sound there was and how clean it was.

So-once again-IT DEPENDS.  You can mix SOME subs, but you MUST do your "homework" ahead of time to be sure it will work.
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Nathan Riddle on April 24, 2017, 01:06:48 pm
Yes running different subs is "usually" a bad idea.

This is because of the different phase response.  So some freq might get louder while others will get quieter.

The BEST way is not to model them (the models only show show much and phase response of different models is not part of the model data-which is the MOST IMPORTANT part in this case), but rather to actually MEASURE them together.

That is what I did.  I put them together, measured, looked at the phase response, the delay times inside the cabinets etc.

Once I saw that they would play well together side by side (with a little delay only), then I could put that information into the model for the room.

The reason for using the different subs in this cases was simply-that is what the provider owned.

So I came up with a configuration that provided a good coverage for the space.

The actual results (the stuff that REALLY matters) was stunned looks from everybody there about how much sound there was and how clean it was.

So-once again-IT DEPENDS.  You can mix SOME subs, but you MUST do your "homework" ahead of time to be sure it will work.

Makes sense, though with just the BC's the spl plot is insane. I think it was 20Hz @~103db @~100ft
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on June 27, 2017, 03:44:50 pm
So I pulled the trigger and picked up 2 x TH118 subs and a DNA20K4PRO amp.  Due to budget I'm currently using a pair of ETX-12P cabinets for my tops that I already owned.  Also, the amplifier is currently running off a 20 amp circuit.  So far I haven't been able to get the tops sounding right with these subs at lower volumes.  I haven't had a chance to really crank them up yet and give them good listen.

I'm currently using the factory presets for the TH118, although I have experimented with different high and low pass crossovers.  At 120 Hz I've found that some kick drums sound a bit distorted.  I haven't been able to find info about what the filter used on the ETX-12P tops looks like but in a promotional video I watched an EV tech described their filters as a brick wall which makes me think it's a much steeper curve than the 24db Butterworth filter on the DNA20K4PRO. 

Does anyone with some experience using the TH118 have any advice they can offer on cross over points for the subs and tops?  Any EQ suggestions?  I'm using a 9ms delay on the tops since that's what I've read people recommend here in other threads.  Is the less than optimal electricity an issue? 
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Rick Alan on June 27, 2017, 03:56:08 pm
120v should not be an issue.  I run a DNA20K with 2 SM80 and 4 TH118 off 120v more often then not.
Try any where between 5 - 10 ms of delay.
Also crank up the rig with high quality music (wav.file)

Rick

So I pulled the trigger and picked up 2 x TH118 subs and a DNA20K4PRO amp.  Due to budget I'm currently using a pair of ETX-12P cabinets for my tops that I already owned.  Also, the amplifier is currently running off a 20 amp circuit.  So far I haven't been able to get the tops sounding right with these subs at lower volumes.  I haven't had a chance to really crank them up yet and give them good listen.

I'm currently using the factory presets for the TH118, although I have experimented with different high and low pass crossovers.  At 120 Hz I've found that some kick drums sound a bit distorted.  I haven't been able to find info about what the filter used on the ETX-12P tops looks like but in a promotional video I watched an EV tech described their filters as a brick wall which makes me think it's a much steeper curve than the 24db Butterworth filter on the DNA20K4PRO. 

Does anyone with some experience using the TH118 have any advice they can offer on cross over points for the subs and tops?  Any EQ suggestions?  I'm using a 9ms delay on the tops since that's what I've read people recommend here in other threads.  Is the less than optimal electricity an issue?
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on June 27, 2017, 04:14:39 pm
120v should not be an issue.  I run a DNA20K with 2 SM80 and 4 TH118 off 120v more often then not.
Try any where between 5 - 10 ms of delay.
Also crank up the rig with high quality music (wav.file)

Rick

Hey, Rick.  Thanks for the quick response.  Great to hear that you're running that much off a conventional circuit without problems.

My source was Google Music which is pretty high quality but not a lossless format so I will give your .wav suggestion a try.  The distortion, or farty sound, that I'm hearing tends to be with a specific genre of music.  That Canadian hip hop, downtempo sound like Kaytranada, The Internet, Drake, etc. which people tend to describe as an "underwater" sound.  With other genres it sounds fine.  Do you need to change up your EQ significantly based on the genre of music you're playing?
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Rick Alan on June 27, 2017, 04:32:19 pm
With mumble rap its hard.  They make there beats tight sounding around 80-100hz then add low end bass at around 60hz.  Since we rent to a lot of DJ's we run our sub on an aux send so we can play with it live. 

Rick

Hey, Rick.  Thanks for the quick response.  Great to hear that you're running that much off a conventional circuit without problems.

My source was Google Music which is pretty high quality but not a lossless format so I will give your .wav suggestion a try.  The distortion, or farty sound, that I'm hearing tends to be with a specific genre of music.  That Canadian hip hop, downtempo sound like Kaytranada, The Internet, Drake, etc. which people tend to describe as an "underwater" sound.  With other genres it sounds fine.  Do you need to change up your EQ significantly based on the genre of music you're playing?
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: James Hennessy on June 27, 2017, 05:31:25 pm
With mumble rap its hard.  They make there beats tight sounding around 80-100hz then add low end bass at around 60hz.  Since we rent to a lot of DJ's we run our sub on an aux send so we can play with it live. 

Rick

I really appreciate the feedback.  I've been enjoying playing around with System Engineer and the DNA20K4PRO.  It seems like a great interface for configuring the amp and making changes on the fly. 
Title: Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
Post by: Rick Alan on June 27, 2017, 05:48:08 pm
When making changes live at an event I use the 4 band eq on the Aux send.

Rick

I really appreciate the feedback.  I've been enjoying playing around with System Engineer and the DNA20K4PRO.  It seems like a great interface for configuring the amp and making changes on the fly.