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Title: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 17, 2017, 09:11:28 AM
Having read this forum a lot made me think about differences in small sound reinforcement culture.
And with small i mean <500 caps.

It seems to me that what is customary in the States is not always the case in N-Europe and vice versa.

A lot of equipment recommendations might be valid for the States, but not so for N-Europe. Here in Northern Europe we almost never use JRX/MRX/PRX, Yamaha, QSC or Yorkville.  Only heard Danley once. We use RCF, EV ETX, SRX/VRX or German makes. And even the smaller rental companies use d&b, Nexo, l'Acoustics, EAW (getting less) or Martin. Same with desks: Never seen an Avid or QSC.

We(?) also don't mix and match speaker brands. Well, almost never... A few months ago i had to mix over a mix of Meyer tops with l'Acoustics subs, the horror... ;)

And over here a DJ is what it is: only a DJ. Brings his/her music. Not a PA and flashy lights. Same with bands. The organizer/bar owner provides the PA (and tech). Only very small bars (<50 cap) make do with the band's 'PA'.

Overall the only time i encounter what could be labeled DJ or MI grade PA's is in rehearsal rooms.

Maybe it's a geographical thing: in a 10 mile radius you can find at least 5 decent sound rentals. Maybe it's a competitive thing: in a 10 mile radius you can find at least 5 decent live bands on a weekend day.
Maybe it's pride? From the rental company or bar owner i mean.
Maybe the bands are spoiled rotten?

Any other observations?


Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: scottstephens on February 17, 2017, 09:33:54 AM
Geert,

A hundred years ago when I traveled the world, The consoles we used were Midas XL3 & XL 4 and A&H ML 3000, & 5000 were everywhere. I've never seen an ML series here on this side of the pond. I'm sure they were here, I just never saw them. Speakers were for the most part...I think... it's been a long time, d&b, outline and maybe EAW or Meyer type clones. "Line Arrays" weren't  happening yet. I did see a couple of
Clair S4 rigs.

We traveled mostly in England, Germany, and Belgium and one time to Poland and the chech republic...That was scary.
Scott
 
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: John Rutirasiri on February 17, 2017, 09:57:59 AM
Here in Northern Europe we almost never use JRX/MRX/PRX, Yamaha, QSC or Yorkville.  Only heard Danley once. We use RCF, EV ETX, SRX/VRX or German makes. And even the smaller rental companies use d&b, Nexo, l'Acoustics, EAW (getting less) or Martin. Same with desks: Never seen an Avid or QSC.

We(?) also don't mix and match speaker brands. Well, almost never... A few months ago i had to mix over a mix of Meyer tops with l'Acoustics subs, the horror... ;)

And over here a DJ is what it is: only a DJ. Brings his/her music. Not a PA and flashy lights. Same with bands. The organizer/bar owner provides the PA (and tech). Only very small bars (<50 cap) make do with the band's 'PA'.

Overall the only time i encounter what could be labeled DJ or MI grade PA's is in rehearsal rooms.

Maybe it's a geographical thing: in a 10 mile radius you can find at least 5 decent sound rentals. Maybe it's a competitive thing: in a 10 mile radius you can find at least 5 decent live bands on a weekend day.
Maybe it's pride? From the rental company or bar owner i mean.
Maybe the bands are spoiled rotten?

Any other observations?

There are different market segments in the States: bars, weddings, school dances, street festivals, corporate, concerts, national acts, etc.  Each market has different types and sizes of sound/AV companies tailored for their markets and budget: DJ's with their own equipment (and varying levels of equipment), lone operators/sole proprietors, small companies with limited resources, larger regional companies, in-house companies like PSAV and Encore, and touring companies like Clearwing or Claire.

What equipment one can afford obviously depends on the resources, their intended market, and ROI.  It would make no sense for someone who does mostly bars to spend money on say, K-Array or Dynacord.  He or she most likely does not have to worry about riders.  The customer would not be willing to pay for what the operator needs to charge for such systems.  "Bang for the buck" is more significant than brand name for folks who are not regional and touring level companies.  "Pride" can't put food on the table.

Now I do not know of many people who do sound for a living using JBL JRX gears.  It's pretty crappy stuff IMO.  JRX line is targeted for people who walk into brick and mortar music stores and have limited budget.  I've only seen them with DJ's who are starting out and in churches.  MRX has long since been discontinued (and was actually decent.)  PRX line is popular because they perform exceptionally well for what they cost.  Not quite SRX, but close.  In powered speakers, QSC, Yamaha, JBL, EV rules here because they are so good for what they cost.

Danley is one of several boutique brands popular in the US.  They are well-known for installations and popular with many small and medium-sized live sound operators.  I love my Danley gears -- they are world class and will easily hang with the best from the States or Europe.  Just because you haven't heard of the name or the brand is not in use in Europe doesn't mean it's not capable.  We did a show where Fifth Harmony was the headliner, and the BE's were blown away with our Danley stuff.

I see nothing wrong with mixing different brands of tops and subs.  It is very common here.  Why did you have trouble with mixing Meyer tops and L'Acoustic subs?  Did you properly set the crossover and EQ the room/system, or do you depend on presets?

John R.







Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 17, 2017, 09:59:32 AM
Other desk brands we don't use often here: Mackie and cheap ones like behringer, alto etc.Yamaha is not happening, except the older digital desks, like M7CL and LS9. The newer ones i haven't seen in the wild yet. The older analog PM series was also a rarity.

Off topic but ok:

Been to Chech republic on small tour around 2005: KV2 and a few Martin rigs. Maybe i was lucky.
Went to Bosnia for two humanitarian tours around 2000. That was scary... Brought a nice d&b C4 rig. It only needed power...
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 17, 2017, 10:19:13 AM
@John:

I'm not saying what is good or bad. It is only an personal observation about differences in equipment used and (business) practices in the lower end of the market. And i observe that a lot of recommendations are based on brands used in the USA.

About different markets: This thread is meant only for smaller sound reinforcement. When things get bigger the differences get smaller, strangely enough.

About Danley: as stated i only heard it once: EDM over SM80? with TH118. It sounded very nice. Only saying it is not (yet) a big name here, same as Fulcrum. But we have brands like KS Audio, Kling&Freitag, Fohhn etc which are quite known over here, but not in the states.

About mixing brands: Seen the ;) ? Of course it was fine. It is just not common practice, even on small gigs.

Again: only observing, and trying to find out why.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Nathan Riddle on February 17, 2017, 10:26:20 AM
Having read this forum a lot made me think about differences in small sound reinforcement culture.
And with small i mean <500 caps.

It seems to me that what is customary in the States is not always the case in N-Europe and vice versa.

Maybe it's a geographical thing: in a 10 mile radius you can find at least 5 decent sound rentals. Maybe it's a competitive thing: in a 10 mile radius you can find at least 5 decent live bands on a weekend day.
Maybe it's pride? From the rental company or bar owner i mean.
Maybe the bands are spoiled rotten?

Any other observations?

Now I haven't been to Europe, but the thing that came to mind when reading this was population density; purely speculation but perhaps that is why the ROI is greater than in the states allowing for a more standardized 'weapon set'?

Perhaps because of import taxation the RCF/German gear is more cost effective in Europe?

Not sure, just what my limited experiences made me think of.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 17, 2017, 10:32:25 AM
Quote
Now I haven't been to Europe, but the thing that came to mind when reading this was population density; purely speculation but perhaps that is why the ROI is greater than in the states allowing for a more standardized 'weapon set'?

Perhaps because of import taxation the RCF/German gear is more cost effective in Europe?

Not sure, just what my limited experiences made me think of.



Both valid points i think.

Another thing: preference for a certain type of PA voicing.
And another thing: crossrental, being all close together (but not TOO close ;) )
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 17, 2017, 11:21:53 AM
But yet, when it comes to mic's, it is very much the same: Shure, AKG, Sennheiser, EV as usual, Neumann and DPA if available.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 17, 2017, 11:26:20 AM
And i observe that a lot of recommendations are based on brands used in the USA.
I believe (and a moderator can confirm/dispute this) that a majority of our users on here are based in the US. So, it would make sense that most recommendations would be for brands readily available here in the US.

About different markets: This thread is meant only for smaller sound reinforcement. When things get bigger the differences get smaller, strangely enough.

About Danley: as stated i only heard it once: EDM over SM80? with TH118. It sounded very nice. Only saying it is not (yet) a big name here, same as Fulcrum. But we have brands like KS Audio, Kling&Freitag, Fohhn etc which are quite known over here, but not in the states.

About mixing brands: Seen the ;) ? Of course it was fine. It is just not common practice, even on small gigs.

Again: only observing, and trying to find out why.
Trying to find out why..... what? I'm not sure what you're asking about here.

-Ray
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 17, 2017, 12:26:31 PM

We(?) also don't mix and match speaker brands. Well, almost never... A few months ago i had to mix over a mix of Meyer tops with l'Acoustics subs, the horror... ;)


In my opinion-there is nothing wrong with mixing brands in subs and tops.

I hear people say all the time "Well so and so sub is "designed" to work the the same tops in the line".

And I ask (I have yet to get a reply), other than physical size (looks) and possible stacking/locking or presets, how is ANY particular sub "designed" to work with particular tops??????

I can not imagine how you could do this.

Maybe it is some "designing" that I am not aware of.

In your case-it had to simply be a bad job of alignment.

I fell it is just something people say-without thinking about it.

I could be wrong-but just am not aware.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 17, 2017, 12:46:55 PM
Having played music on both sides of the pond, my experience is that the European/Scandinavian production standards are higher on the east side of the pond.  I can't listen to 95% of what passes for sound in the U.S..

But the depressing thing is that the audiences here don't know or don't care. 
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 17, 2017, 12:59:02 PM


But the depressing thing is that the audiences here don't know or don't care.
When you are constantly surrounded by bad sound (not just performance-but everywhere you go), you just start to "accept" that is the way it is.

BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE that bad.

But when the budget can't/won't afford decent, you end up with crap because "that is what other people have and it is good enough".

Manufacturers don't help any by putting out cheaper and cheaper products and people will buy them because of price alone-as long as it makes some kind of sound.

When all you have every eaten is McDonalds, that may be fine-until you've had a nice Filet, THEN  you start to realize there is a difference.

But until you've heard it, your "standards" will remain low.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: jesseweiss on February 17, 2017, 03:18:58 PM
In my opinion-there is nothing wrong with mixing brands in subs and tops.

I hear people say all the time "Well so and so sub is "designed" to work the the same tops in the line".

And I ask (I have yet to get a reply), other than physical size (looks) and possible stacking/locking or presets, how is ANY particular sub "designed" to work with particular tops??????

I can not imagine how you could do this.

Maybe it is some "designing" that I am not aware of.

In your case-it had to simply be a bad job of alignment.

I fell it is just something people say-without thinking about it.

I could be wrong-but just am not aware.

I think it's just presets.  Like the SRM1850 we have is "designed" to work with the SRM550's and 650's.  Translated that means it has presets for the crossover frequencies for those tops.  Of course, it doesn't entirely much to just look what frequency to use, so it's really a marketing ploy.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Randy Pence on February 17, 2017, 04:46:08 PM
Other desk brands we don't use often here: Mackie and cheap ones like behringer, alto etc.Yamaha is not happening, except the older digital desks, like M7CL and LS9. The newer ones i haven't seen in the wild yet. The older analog PM series was also a rarity.

Off topic but ok:

Been to Chech republic on small tour around 2005: KV2 and a few Martin rigs. Maybe i was lucky.
Went to Bosnia for two humanitarian tours around 2000. That was scary... Brought a nice d&b C4 rig. It only needed power...

American living in Berlin since 2003 here...

Boutique brands have challenges on either side of the pond regarding distribution and support.  Import duties affect everyone.

I've seen plenty of mackie, behringer, and other low budget gear.  Thomann likely sells plenty of qsc stuff, as I've seen a lot of it.  Meyer is doing fine.  Vertecs have toured.  Crest amps and analog desks, too.  One massive complex I worked for had a yamaha m3000a board.  Never seen any Outline here, despite being a european brand.  JBL Control 1s dominate restaurant and bar background systems.  The larger rental shops indeed tend to carry exclsuively higher quality gear, but don't forget about all the outlaw party sound system people who came about with mixing and matching.  Speakerplans.com is a good look into the british side of that.

PSAV even has branches here, but the german office went L'Acoustic.

Why so much german stuff?  Long cultural history of production and music. 

It is true that a number of brands do not have nearly the reach on opposite continents, but again, chalk it up to distribution and support networks.  EV made a bigger dent here due to being owned by Bosch.  Other conglomerations likely have resulted in greater pond crossing of other brands.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 17, 2017, 05:32:15 PM
It's not as simple as gear.  It has more to do with high production values extending further down the user chain.
If things haven't changed a lot in the last 20 years, I'd say both the local skill level was higher on average and folks don't mind paying for quality production as opposed to your alcohol vending venues who care only about paying off their boat.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on February 17, 2017, 05:49:21 PM
A thing often overlooked by US manufacturers is packaging, something very important to a lot of european customers.

Think turn-key systems. Not that many years ago you couldn't buy a tour-ready sound system from a large US manufacturer.

Compare that to the d&B/Kling&Freitag/L-Acoustic price list.

Speakers, cables, brackets, flights, wheelboards, covers,  adapter plates, amps, racks, breakouts, presets etc. ready to go from the start. Lately the US manufacturers have gotten better, but I still think they need to look closer at this.

Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 17, 2017, 10:03:26 PM
I've read some interesting points of view. Hope you all did.

Regarding the tops/subs thing: again, it was fine. Sounded great. Of course i don't mind what kind or brand the PA consists of, as long as it is decent and known. In my case it was two Meyer MSL tops, with 8 l' Acoustics dual 18's dual line, single endfire, outside. Nobody coul care less. But we are talking about SMALL sound reinforcent.

But what Dick Rees said is what my gut feeling is, if i'm honest...
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Randy Pence on February 18, 2017, 02:33:12 PM
It's not as simple as gear.  It has more to do with high production values extending further down the user chain.
If things haven't changed a lot in the last 20 years, I'd say both the local skill level was higher on average and folks don't mind paying for quality production as opposed to your alcohol vending venues who care only about paying off their boat.

Speaking again for the german market, I have encountered few techs for proper venues and shops who have not gone through a multi-year apprenticeship.  We all know that even being certified by some external educational facility is no guarantee in being any good in the field, but it does stop a lot of charlatans from getting far enough to be dangerous.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Randy Pence on February 18, 2017, 02:37:12 PM
I've read some interesting points of view. Hope you all did.

Regarding the tops/subs thing: again, it was fine. Sounded great. Of course i don't mind what kind or brand the PA consists of, as long as it is decent and known. In my case it was two Meyer MSL tops, with 8 l' Acoustics dual 18's dual line, single endfire, outside. Nobody coul care less. But we are talking about SMALL sound reinforcent.

But what Dick Rees said is what my gut feeling is, if i'm honest...

Size of gig hasnt been relevant in my experience.  A small corporate event for 50 people requires just as much professionalism  as for hundreds or thousands, and a promoter can draw thousands for some shitty event. It's just about scaling. 
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Rick Powell on February 18, 2017, 03:31:28 PM
Speaking again for the german market, I have encountered few techs for proper venues and shops who have not gone through a multi-year apprenticeship.  We all know that even being certified by some external educational facility is no guarantee in being any good in the field, but it does stop a lot of charlatans from getting far enough to be dangerous.

What, is everyone a Tönmeister over there?
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Scott Bolt on February 18, 2017, 05:51:33 PM
I travel frequently to Europe.  I can't say that the small to medium pubs there have any better average sound than the small to medium bars here in the US. 

I do think that Europe has more live sound venues per city than we do in the US where DJ's have largely taken over the traditional "live sound" venue of the past. 

Still, plenty of DJ places in Europe too.  I can see the trend moving to the Eu as well in the future.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Kemper Watson on February 18, 2017, 06:48:57 PM
I travel frequently to Europe.  I can't say that the small to medium pubs there have any better average sound than the small to medium bars here in the US. 

I do think that Europe has more live sound venues per city than we do in the US where DJ's have largely taken over the traditional "live sound" venue of the past. 

Still, plenty of DJ places in Europe too.  I can see the trend moving to the Eu as well in the future.

I can barely hold back my excitement when I see."live DJ" advertised ..
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Scott Bolt on February 18, 2017, 07:30:43 PM
I can barely hold back my excitement when I see."live DJ" advertised ..
Yea, the live ones cost more than the dead ones ;)

Truly a sad state of affairs.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Randy Pence on February 19, 2017, 02:46:02 PM
What, is everyone a Tönmeister over there?

No, meister is an advanced certification, and I havent knowingly met many

Let's put it this way, few people get their start here sweeping floors and moving their way up to coiling cables.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Randy Pence on February 19, 2017, 02:54:16 PM
I travel frequently to Europe.  I can't say that the small to medium pubs there have any better average sound than the small to medium bars here in the US. 

I do think that Europe has more live sound venues per city than we do in the US where DJ's have largely taken over the traditional "live sound" venue of the past. 

Still, plenty of DJ places in Europe too.  I can see the trend moving to the Eu as well in the future.

I'd venture to say that europe has more dj places per capita, too.  House and techno started in the US, but it took off here.  The love parade drew over a million people in the 90s while america was still trying to figure out why the music was so repetitive.  Europeans don't see it as much of an either/or situation regarding djs and live music
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 19, 2017, 02:56:54 PM
What, is everyone a Tönmeister over there?

Ach!!!

Was für ein gratuitous umlaut!!!
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 19, 2017, 03:09:11 PM
No, meister is an advanced certification, and I havent knowingly met many

Let's put it this way, few people get their start here sweeping floors and moving their way up to coiling cables.

As a USA ex-pat you may remember that here we have this huge 'group arrogance' wherein folks think that because they can make noise come out of their home theater setup or karaoke/DJ/PA rig they have become experts with no need to further their skills, abilities or to advance in their craft.  Throw in a pervasive anti-learning sentiment coupled with a "there's an app for that" mentality and it does not surprise me that much of today's audio is not better that the good old days.  Manufacturer's have made it easier than ever to make reasonable good sound - the gear is better than it's ever been - but the aural result still varies from *sucks out loud* to "hey, that's pretty nice".  Better gear has made it easier to hit the top end of that result scale but has done little to raise the bottom of the scale (human factors).

Ivan pointed out that ultimately it's up to paying audiences to vote with their feet/money.  With the "stuck in your ear where everything is the same level" source of comparison, I don't hold out any realistic hope that better sound (systems and especially mixes) will result from a consumer demand.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 19, 2017, 04:03:13 PM
, I don't hold out any realistic hope that better sound (systems and especially mixes) will result from a consumer demand.
I amazes me how many people still enjoy (dancing smiling etc) REALLY BAD sound.

It is like you can stick up the worst sounding speaker you can find-and people (some anyway) will start to "groove".

It is like-as long as it is cheap-many people will buy it.  They understand that spending more does not equal more sales-so why bother.

Just look at the overall "trend" of products.

How many manufacturers are trying to make products truly SOUND better?  Most are racing to the bottom to see how cheap they can make them.

Maybe they understand more than I do.

REALLY sad.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on February 19, 2017, 05:20:24 PM
I amazes me how many people still enjoy (dancing smiling etc) REALLY BAD sound.

It is like you can stick up the worst sounding speaker you can find-and people (some anyway) will start to "groove".

It is like-as long as it is cheap-many people will buy it.  They understand that spending more does not equal more sales-so why bother.

Just look at the overall "trend" of products.

How many manufacturers are trying to make products truly SOUND better?  Most are racing to the bottom to see how cheap they can make them.

Maybe they understand more than I do.

REALLY sad.

Many people "just like music", and don't really care about the quality of the sound.  Others just blatantly don't give a damn, except that they want it as loud as it will go.  Others can't stand bad sound (or music) at all, and leave.  Lastly, there are many who withstand the absolute worst presentation because they just want to hear it.

<edit>  These are not excuses; merely observations.

-Dennis
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Randy Pence on February 19, 2017, 06:03:27 PM
Ach!!!

Was für ein gratuitous umlaut!!!

not if it went over the n  8)
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Randy Pence on February 19, 2017, 06:19:29 PM
As a USA ex-pat you may remember that here we have this huge 'group arrogance' wherein folks think that because they can make noise come out of their home theater setup or karaoke/DJ/PA rig they have become experts with no need to further their skills, abilities or to advance in their craft.  Throw in a pervasive anti-learning sentiment coupled with a "there's an app for that" mentality and it does not surprise me that much of today's audio is not better that the good old days.  Manufacturer's have made it easier than ever to make reasonable good sound - the gear is better than it's ever been - but the aural result still varies from *sucks out loud* to "hey, that's pretty nice".  Better gear has made it easier to hit the top end of that result scale but has done little to raise the bottom of the scale (human factors).

Ivan pointed out that ultimately it's up to paying audiences to vote with their feet/money.  With the "stuck in your ear where everything is the same level" source of comparison, I don't hold out any realistic hope that better sound (systems and especially mixes) will result from a consumer demand.

Don't forget, I've spent a long time in the dj end of the pool, where even in berlin people get impressed by hearing their new favorite song louder than in their living room.  I actually had an SAE grad  producer and dj tell me that ground stacking was superior as flown speakers would sway back and forth from their own output and smear the sound.  However, he isnt working for any provider.  Providers here, large and small, have to send out capable staff to a talking heads gig one day where every word needs to be understood and to a concert or dj gig the next where they rely on the manufactures presets and prediction software.

Bad sound can have consequences.  One provider fucked up the hangs for a show, as in it was louder at the bar than at foh, and foh was half the distance to the stage.  Last I saw them in the venue for a while..
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Lance Hallmark on February 20, 2017, 10:52:40 AM
I amazes me how many people still enjoy (dancing smiling etc) REALLY BAD sound.

It is like you can stick up the worst sounding speaker you can find-and people (some anyway) will start to "groove".

It is like-as long as it is cheap-many people will buy it.  They understand that spending more does not equal more sales-so why bother.

Just look at the overall "trend" of products.

How many manufacturers are trying to make products truly SOUND better?  Most are racing to the bottom to see how cheap they can make them.

Maybe they understand more than I do.

REALLY sad.

I agree. I spend a lot of money & effort to provide higher quality sound. People are used to crappy sound, especially in my area. There really are no high end sound venues here, I'm hoping to change that in a year or two. Of course when you do provide better sound, it is very noticeable to me that people are more into the music, have more energy, and stay longer.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Lance Hallmark on February 20, 2017, 11:17:30 AM
I can barely hold back my excitement when I see."live DJ" advertised ..

It's sad you're so closed minded. As with any musical performance, there are great, artistic DJs who can do amazing things and create a great musical vibe and experience for hundreds or thousands of fans. There are also crappy DJs who don't know anything about sound, just as there are plenty of crappy bands and sound providers. Different talents and different vibes than live music for sure, but both can be equally uplifting and satisfying. Personally, I wouldn't want my life devoid of either. I may not like every genre of music, but I respect the people who are making it and they are passionate about it, whether it's is crappy, tired classic rock renditions or crappy Hip Hop or EDM.
I know it's cool to bash on DJs but generally the crappy ones aren't really on this board, just like most of the bad sound peeps aren't either. I love the knowledge base here, but get tired of the unwarranted bashing. If there's a valid reason, bash away, I'll be right there with you.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Steve Garris on February 20, 2017, 11:38:33 AM
It's sad you're so closed minded. As with any musical performance, there are great, artistic DJs who can do amazing things and create a great musical vibe and experience for hundreds or thousands of fans. There are also crappy DJs who don't know anything about sound, just as there are plenty of crappy bands and sound providers. Different talents and different vibes than live music for sure, but both can be equally uplifting and satisfying. Personally, I wouldn't want my life devoid of either. I may not like every genre of music, but I respect the people who are making it and they are passionate about it, whether it's is crappy, tired classic rock renditions or crappy Hip Hop or EDM.
I know it's cool to bash on DJs but generally the crappy ones aren't really on this board, just like most of the bad sound peeps aren't either. I love the knowledge base here, but get tired of the unwarranted bashing. If there's a valid reason, bash away, I'll be right there with you.

They're just mad because the DJ's make more money & have bigger crowds  8)
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Rick Powell on February 20, 2017, 11:45:04 AM
not if it went over the n  8)

Toñmeister!
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 20, 2017, 12:00:09 PM
It's sad you're so closed minded. As with any musical performance, there are great, artistic DJs who can do amazing things and create a great musical vibe and experience for hundreds or thousands of fans. There are also crappy DJs who don't know anything about sound, just as there are plenty of crappy bands and sound providers.
I have worked with all genres of music and many different "DJs" over my decades in the industry.

I have only run across 2 DJs that I enjoyed.

One was back in the late 80s with turntables.

I was truly amazed at how he was using them to pick out certain lines on one table to add to the other table that was playing.

The other was during a 3 day EDM fest in the California desert.

I was taking an nap one evening and somehow I felt the music that was being played was "different".

After laying there for a little while, I got up and went out front to listen.

I really enjoyed the way it seemed as if he was "abusing" the sound system.  Everything was running fine-but this had a different cool effect.

I only got to listen for about 20 minutes til his set was up.

I wish I had gotten up earlier.

But it takes something special for me to "get excited" about music or really into it.

It does not happen very often.  Live or DJ.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Randy Pence on February 21, 2017, 06:26:57 AM
It's sad you're so closed minded. As with any musical performance, there are great, artistic DJs who can do amazing things and create a great musical vibe and experience for hundreds or thousands of fans. There are also crappy DJs who don't know anything about sound, just as there are plenty of crappy bands and sound providers. Different talents and different vibes than live music for sure, but both can be equally uplifting and satisfying. Personally, I wouldn't want my life devoid of either. I may not like every genre of music, but I respect the people who are making it and they are passionate about it, whether it's is crappy, tired classic rock renditions or crappy Hip Hop or EDM.
I know it's cool to bash on DJs but generally the crappy ones aren't really on this board, just like most of the bad sound peeps aren't either. I love the knowledge base here, but get tired of the unwarranted bashing. If there's a valid reason, bash away, I'll be right there with you.

With all due respect, I don't think many advertised as "live DJ" are going to be the intrepid music purveyors you are moved by
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Uniz Kazz on March 07, 2017, 08:26:04 AM
How are the KS Audio boxes? Their passive boxes seem to require that you only buy their amplification and controllers (not unlike nexo's PS series). Could I not match them with other high quality amps with DSP and get as good results ?


@John:

I'm not saying what is good or bad. It is only an personal observation about differences in equipment used and (business) practices in the lower end of the market. And i observe that a lot of recommendations are based on brands used in the USA.

About different markets: This thread is meant only for smaller sound reinforcement. When things get bigger the differences get smaller, strangely enough.

About Danley: as stated i only heard it once: EDM over SM80? with TH118. It sounded very nice. Only saying it is not (yet) a big name here, same as Fulcrum. But we have brands like KS Audio, Kling&Freitag, Fohhn etc which are quite known over here, but not in the states.

About mixing brands: Seen the ;) ? Of course it was fine. It is just not common practice, even on small gigs.

Again: only observing, and trying to find out why.
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Randy Pence on March 07, 2017, 09:13:20 AM
How are the KS Audio boxes? Their passive boxes seem to require that you only buy their amplification and controllers (not unlike nexo's PS series). Could I not match them with other high quality amps with DSP and get as good results ?

given how relatively unknown that brand is, i would imagine that buying their system amps is a smarter choice over brewing up your own dsp parameters, for rider acceptance (if they have any) and resale value
Title: Re: Differences in small/medium sound reinforcement USA and Northern Europe
Post by: Bob Kidd on March 07, 2017, 10:33:50 AM
It's not as simple as gear.  It has more to do with high production values extending further down the user chain.
If things haven't changed a lot in the last 20 years, I'd say both the local skill level was higher on average and folks don't mind paying for quality production as opposed to your alcohol vending venues who care only about paying off their boat.

+1000

Doing mostly private and bar gigs, from what I see it's not the systems but the ones operating. Most just purchase gear without taking the time to educate themselves.