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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Peter Martin on April 04, 2014, 11:33:50 PM
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Hey guys, I am a young church and live tech from the St. Louis area and I wanted to see what you all think. So, How loud is to loud? Concert, In- ears, or even just at home listening! Let me know what you all think.
Thanks!
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Hey guys, I am a young church and live tech from the St. Louis area and I wanted to see what you all think. So, How loud is to loud? Concert, In- ears, or even just at home listening! Let me know what you all think.
Thanks!
concert=96 to 115
in ears= 85 to 95
depends totally on perception
our church praise band 85 95
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Some of it depends on how accurate or "clean" the sound is and the style of music. 85 dB of "muddy" sound can be painful to listen to while 95 dB of "clean" sound can be pleasant.
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Take a look at the OSHA limits for different times of exposure.
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Hey guys, I am a young church and live tech from the St. Louis area and I wanted to see what you all think. So, How loud is to loud? Concert, In- ears, or even just at home listening! Let me know what you all think.
Thanks!
The correct answer, at least when mixing a worship service, is "whatever the boss (be that the music/worship director or the pastor) says". If anybody's complaining about mix level you really need the people above you to have your back--and ideally, people with complaints about the level should be taking that up with the pastor (or leader) responsible rather than the FOH tech. There's nothing I enjoy less than handling complaints about mix volume while I mix.
It can be useful to show that sound levels comply with OSHA guidelines in cases where people claim that levels are damaging (we've got a few people who take my province's limit of "dose equivalent to 8 hours at 85 dBA" to mean "never go above 85 dBA ::)). Averaged over a typical worship service, including preaching/announcements, this should be trivially easy to meet.
I agree that context, musical style, and mix quality play a huge role in the amount level you can get away with. Music you don't like is too loud at any level...
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concert=96 to 115
in ears= 85 to 95
depends totally on perception
our church praise band 85 95
Of course, a lot depends on where you're measuring in relation to the speakers, and whether you're indoors or out.
We have the "freedom" to mix to just about any level we wish - as long as it meets local noise ordinances - and what your congregation and praise minister want.
Lots of regulating bodies have tables for noise exposure - OSHA, NIOSH, World Health Org, etc. Also these figures are for adults - "Children" have a much lower table (depending on who you ask)
Of course the EU has much better defined limits and are more strictly enforced (as I understand it)
God bless you if you can figure it out.
BTW, yesterday was my first outdoor festival of the year - and of course, my first noise complaint. <85 dBA mid plaza - from one of the vendors snarkily telling the organizer "my hearing is in tact". Theramin player playing along with a CD of Patsy Cline. Played two whole songs. Gonna be a long Summer.
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concert=96 to 115
in ears= 85 to 95
depends totally on perception
our church praise band 85 95
You are correct. Every single one of those numbers is too loud.
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You are correct. Every single one of those numbers is too loud.
I could say something about accordion at any level being too loud... but I won't. :-)
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concert=96 to 115
in ears= 85 to 95
depends totally on perception
our church praise band 85 95
There is much more to too loud than just a simple dB/SPL reading from a meter.
First, these numbers are meaningless. Even if they were accompanied by dB they would be meaningless. If you are talking about sound pressure then designate that (SPL, sound pressure level). Then it is important to consider weighting. It is most critical to look at the frequency content and level over time. Often people try to create the feeling of power, energy, or strength by just turning it up when the real problem us their system is not capable of real bass response. A typical system needs sub output capable of at least 15 dB/SPL unweighted higher output than the rest of the system. Many EDM systems have a capability at least double this. The best sounding systems also taper off/decrease in output at around 4dB/SPL per octave above about 2k or 3k. This will vary some with the system, room, etc. but flat sounds too brittle/harsh. We expect to hear a drop in HF content as distance from a source increases.
Lee
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I could say something about accordion at any level being too loud... but I won't. :-)
The nice thing about accordion is that you don't need no stinkin' PA.....
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I agree with Jeff. You will have nearly as many answers to that question as there are people in the service and someone has make the call.
I have found it useful to be able to point out to those who compain of hearing damage that our peak levels are below the the level that OSHA requires hearing protection for-if you are exposed 8 hours a day vs less than 3 minutes for a song. Use the same method as OSHA and it at least diffuses the gripes-whether or not OSHA is right is irrelevent.
Also, if the pastor is on board, I have had my pastor occasionally remind people that though we try to have consistent sound, the reality is that it will sound diffferent in different seats. If you don't like it where you are at try a different seat next service
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I agree with Jeff. You will have nearly as many answers to that question as there are people in the service and someone has make the call.
I have found it useful to be able to point out to those who compain of hearing damage that our peak levels are below the the level that OSHA requires hearing protection for-if you are exposed 8 hours a day vs less than 3 minutes for a song. Use the same method as OSHA and it at least diffuses the gripes-whether or not OSHA is right is irrelevent.
Also, if the pastor is on board, I have had my pastor occasionally remind people that though we try to have consistent sound, the reality is that it will sound diffferent in different seats. If you don't like it where you are at try a different seat next service
You can't use the same levels as OSHA unless you are measuring with a dosimeter.
Also, keep in mind that OSHA levels were developed based on levels that would result in 50% of the people exposed throughout their working career developing significant hearing loss. NIOSH levels are actually a better reference if you want to keep from damage.
A simple discussion of level does not answer the question of perceived loudness or hearing damage unless you discuss at what frequencies you are measuring.
Here's a link to a good paper by Etymotic research.
https://www.etymotic.com/pdf/er_noise_exposure_whitepaper.pdf
Lee
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You can't use the same levels as OSHA unless you are measuring with a dosimeter.
Also, keep in mind that OSHA levels were developed based on levels that would result in 50% of the people exposed throughout their working career developing significant hearing loss. NIOSH levels are actually a better reference if you want to keep from damage.
OSHA standards were conceived with constant noise in mind, such as you might get from running machinery. Music (barring certain Top 40 performers) doesn't fit this model well. Even so, it's a guideline that we have.
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OSHA standards were conceived with constant noise in mind, such as you might get from running machinery. Music (barring certain Top 40 performers) doesn't fit this model well. Even so, it's a guideline that we have.
OSHA guidelines were developed with the dose in mind hence the need for using a dosimeter. They are referenced to constant exposure but then use an exchange rate. The dose is the accurate measurement. They were also developed based on the people exposed to the sound(s) in question being in quiet when they were not at work. OSHA only regulates the workplace for workers so would regulate for an usher at a concert but not for the actual audience member. There are no regulating body for listeners but there is a body that makes recommendations. That would be NIOSH.
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My point was a a simple frame of reference to defend a given sound level. If I remember correctly, the standard is or was 95 dB, honestly can't remember whether A or C weighted over 8 hours. If my peak levels are in the 95 to 100 dB range for 2 or 3 3 minute songs for less than 3 hours of services a Sunday and rest of the service is considerably lower, it doesn't take a dosimeter to figure out I am well under that average.
If there is a legal concern, then one would obviously need to be more technical in the measurement. For my suggested purpose-soothing the minds and concerns of a few people, IMO a rough but logically conclusive measurement should be sufficient.
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A few issues with OSHA:
- It is intended to be applied to occupational noise exposure, so they may apply to church employees but are not applicable to attendees (the same with concertgoers, etc.).
- Since it is based on workplace noise exposure, OSHA is predicated on an 8 hour 'dose' or total exposure. There are references to sound levels for shorter time period exposures but those are really referencing how exposure to various noise levels relate to the overall dose.
- Because it is referencing the noise exposure, OSHA does not actually address the source noise levels except in terms of the resulting exposure. In other words, OSHA does not define any limits on the noise source sound levels, only on the resulting noise exposure.
- Similary, OSHA does not address reducing the source noise levels, only reducing the resulting exposure through various methods that may be as simple as providing hearing protection devices or reducing the time one is exposed to higher sound levels rather than reducing the levels themselves.
- OSHA defines two separate action levels and the lower action level of an 85dBA 8 hour TWA or dose requires establishing a hearing conservation program with routine audiometric testing to assess that any hearing loss over time that is not age related is below a defined level. I doubt many churches would want to implement that process, however ignoring it means overlooking one of the important aspects of the OSHA criteria.
As far as appropriate sound levels for a church, there can be so many factors to consider. Some relate to the measurements themselves such as what weighting and response time are used for the measurements? Are you addressing peak, 'eyeballed' average, Time Weighted Average, percent exceeded or some other level? How accurate are the measurement devices? Where are the measurments made? And so on. Other factors relate to the sound system and audio content. How might the levels and frequency response vary throughout the listener area? What is the frequency content of the audio? Then there are subjective factors such as personal preferences regarding the style of music.
Add those all together and what XdB actually represents in terms of the perceived loudness and noise exposure can vary widely. And that is why I believe that a church really needs to define what is 'right' for them and not try to apply the criteria used by other churches with potentially different systems, spaces, memberships and services.
As to Stephen's point, the problem is that you have no way of knowing or controlling people's noise exposure outside the church. If someone is near the exposure limits from their exposure before and/or after services then exposure to anything over 85dBA during a service could result in an exceedance related to implementing a hearing conservation program while exposure to any levels over 90dBA may cause an exceedance relating to requiring providing hearing protection (again, OSHA is addressing reducing the exposure, not the noise levels). As a result, the only approach to avoid a church service potentially causing an exceedance of any OSHA criteria is to avoid any sound during the service potentially adding to the exposure at all and that means keeping the peak level for all listeners below 85dBA, a level that most churches would likely find overly restrictive.
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As to Stephen's point, the problem is that you have no way of knowing or controlling people's noise exposure outside the church. If someone is near the exposure limits from their exposure before and/or after services then exposure to anything over 85dBA during a service could result in an exceedance related to implementing a hearing conservation program while exposure to any levels over 90dBA may cause an exceedance relating to requiring providing hearing protection (again, OSHA is addressing reducing the exposure, not the noise levels). As a result, the only approach to avoid a church service potentially causing an exceedance of any OSHA criteria is to avoid any sound during the service potentially adding to the exposure at all and that means keeping the peak level for all listeners below 85dBA, a level that most churches would likely find overly restrictive.
To put this another way, an SPL during a service that does not exceed the safe dose for an audience member in attendance only during the service MAY exceed the safe dose for a performer or other church employee/volunteer that is also exposed to high SPL before the service during practice, rehearsal, and sound check.
Since church leadership may not want to restrict the SPL during the service to what would otherwise be a 'safe' level for those exposed during the pre-service sessions, it may be prudent to protect those people during the pre-service either through minimizing high-SPL output or providing some means of hearing protection for use during that practice time.
You can also mitigate the issue somewhat by giving the performers and other workers quiet time (in a quiet room) between practice and the service -- this gives their ears and minds time to rest and recover.
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To put this another way, an SPL during a service that does not exceed the safe dose for an audience member in attendance only during the service MAY exceed the safe dose for a performer or other church employee/volunteer that is also exposed to high SPL before the service during practice, rehearsal, and sound check.
Another example is how many people go home after church and mow the lawn? It is possible for the noise exposure for each individual activity to appear acceptable if looked at based on just the duration of that activity but to then have the composite noise exposure be problematic if both activities occur in the same 8 hour period. And if the composite noise exposure from the church service and lawn mowing results in an OSHA exceedance or hearing loss then is it the lawn mowing or the service that is to blame?
This issue relates to many misinterpreting Table G-16 in Paragraph 1910.95(b)(2) of the related OSHA standards. As an example, that table is not saying that you can have 105dBA levels for any 1 hour period, it is actually saying that exposure to 105dBA for a 1 hour duration represents the entire allowable exposure for any 8 hour measurement period and thus if one is exposed to 105dBA for 1 hour then the noise exposure for the other 7 hours of the 8 hour assessment period must not add to the overall exposure. Table G-16 is also addressing when "administrative or engineering" controls (i.e. reducing the levels or duration of exposure) or hearing protection must be implemented, however the criteria for being required to implement a hearing conservation program is effectively 5dB lower than the levels referenced in Table G-16.
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Of course it is complicated, but we only have a dB meter (if we are lucky) and want to run at reasonable levels... do we do nothing?
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Of course it is complicated, but we only have a dB meter (if we are lucky) and want to run at reasonable levels... do we do nothing?
Even with just a "simple" meter it gets a lot more complicated.
Consider the different levels you get with jsut the 4 basic options (A or C weighting and fast or slow).
Using just those 4 variables you can easily get a 20dB (or more) difference in reading on the same signal.
100dB A slow is a lot louder than 110dB C fast.
So it is not just a "simple number".
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Even with just a "simple" meter it gets a lot more complicated.
Consider the different levels you get with just the 4 basic options (A or C weighting and fast or slow).
Using just those 4 variables you can easily get a 20dB (or more) difference in reading on the same signal.
100dB A slow is a lot louder than 110dB C fast.
So it is not just a "simple number".
What is the recommended setting for a church sound person to use? What setting will give the best picture of potential hearing loss in a live audio environment? I realize there probably isn't a "hard" answer to this but I'm hoping for some kind of guideline or recommendation.
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What is the recommended setting for a church sound person to use? What setting will give the best picture of potential hearing loss in a live audio environment? I realize there probably isn't a "hard" answer to this but I'm hoping for some kind of guideline or recommendation.
Most of the hearing loss criteria use A-weighting and slow response and that is also probably what most churches use, although I have noted a seemingly increasing number using C-weighting that is technically more appropriate for the sound levels normally encountered with contemporary worship. The problem is that even with the same weighting and response time, the same peak or average SPL level can be related to dramatically different frequency responses, room acoustics, musical genres, dynamic ranges, etc. that could lead to quite different perceptions of the associated loudness.
Of course it is complicated, but we only have a dB meter (if we are lucky) and want to run at reasonable levels... do we do nothing?
Your question actually goes right to the heart of the matter in that "reasonable" is a subjective determination and what you deem a reasonable sound level for your services using your audio system in your worship space may be quite different than what may be deemed reasonable in other situations.
I recall several similar discussions where people noted that the "reasonable" sound level in their church was determined by how loud they had to run the system in order to work with the levels coming from the stage. In those cases the "reasonable" sound level was determined by the sound quality rather than the actual SPL (which may have otherwise been deemed unreasonable).
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[quote author=Brad Weber link=topic=149171.msg1369770#msg1369770 date=1396994916
I recall several similar discussions where people noted that the "reasonable" sound level in their church was determined by how loud they had to run the system in order to work with the levels coming from the stage. In those cases the "reasonable" sound level was determined by the sound quality rather than the actual SPL (which may have otherwise been deemed unreasonable).
[/quote]
Probably completely OT, but if the goal is sound re-enforcement, having to overcome stage volume seems like an oxymoron? I think I know where the comment is coming from, but it seems like the solution should be fixed somewhere besides at the master fader.
Back on topic. I understand the complexity of a hard and fast answer. Yet, as an electrician, I will use this example-the voltage at a typical outlet is 120 volts-nominal. Averaged , it might trend up or down and vary 10 percent plus or minus. For some situations, if it fluctuates, or is noisy, it can be critical and there are tools and methods to take this into account. Most of the time, if I know it is between 100 and 130, I know it should work OK-I really don't care if it is 121.507 volts or 116.435 volts-nor do I usually care if it has a poor power factor or any of number if possibilities-yet I could say asking for a 120 VAC at 60 Hz is an over simplification of the issue, and in some situations it would be.
The technology to monitor a service and calculate an average level, a peak level, and the dynamic range of service or performance should be relatively easy to implement and might prove to be a very useful tool for sound techs-but I do not have the knowledge to put something like that together.
Yes, what people do outside of church is beyond my control-and if they go to there car and crank music over 100 dB for 3 hours they will probably suffer hearing loss regardless of service volume. Perhaps to a tech that works in a sound lab it seems an over simplification, but it seems there should be some practical way to monitor sound levels and have a reasonable opportunity to be responsible with sound levels.
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Experience has told me what level I should run our system at in the church to
a. Get the least amount of complaints and
b. Reduce my hearing exposure to acceptable levels because it is the only thing I can control.
c. Meet with leaderships approval.
To help with peoples concerns I have informed the leadership where people can sit to help reduce their exposure if they feel it is too loud for them.
For me that has been sufficient.
note: people with hearing aids can give you valuable information on levels. Most of them will shut off at certain levels. I try to minimize that happening...of course that may no be loud enough in some situations but, it is in ours.
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The original question was how "loud is too loud?"
I know the range we try to keep our levels and it does vary depending on the music team and the congregation etc that day but overall it is relatively modest compared to some places I have been. I have walked out of churches that were ear bleeding loud especially when we had younger kids.
But let's pretend you are standing at the board and you have to decide whether it is too loud or not. AKA you must pick a number/rule of thumb.
What do you do?
For better or worse, we (sound guys and leadership) try to stay under 100 dB C Slow measured at the front row of seats.
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Experience has told me what level I should run our system at in the church to
a. Get the least amount of complaints and
b. Reduce my hearing exposure to acceptable levels because it is the only thing I can control.
c. Meet with leaderships approval.
To help with peoples concerns I have informed the leadership where people can sit to help reduce their exposure if they feel it is too loud for them.
For me that has been sufficient.
note: people with hearing aids can give you valuable information on levels. Most of them will shut off at certain levels. I try to minimize that happening...of course that may no be loud enough in some situations but, it is in ours.
I was at a Church yesterday and the Pastor said "Yeah I know we have people walk out because it is to loud. But that is who we are and we are not going to change for them".
Of course they LOVE their kick drum in that Church.
Sometimes you don't try to please everybody.
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For my Sunday night gig it is too loud when some of the regulars that usually stay the whole evening start leaving before the first break.
I find that if I can keep it below 94dB A weighted slow at my mix position (which is not in the main pattern), I don't get many complaints.
It is too loud in my opinion when the waitress has to yell for me to hear her 1ft from me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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It is too loud in my opinion when the waitress has to yell for me to hear her 1ft from me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Because if the waitress can't hear my drink order there is going to be a problem 😏
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For my Sunday night gig it is too loud when some of the regulars that usually stay the whole evening start leaving before the first break.
I find that if I can keep it below 94dB A weighted slow at my mix position (which is not in the main pattern), I don't get many complaints.
It is too loud in my opinion when the waitress has to yell for me to hear her 1ft from me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Interesting - great minds run in the same circles.
I also use the regular barflies the same way, and note whether anyone wants the front tables. I found 95dBA at the bar the top end tolerable (40' from stage). 92dBA is all the better. If the bartender can't get the order, it's too loud. The only exception is when we have an over-zealous, rimshot-happy drummer. That crack cuts through anything, and the result is always "too loud".
frank
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Hey guys, I am a young church and live tech from the St. Louis area and I wanted to see what you all think. So, How loud is to loud? Concert, In- ears, or even just at home listening! Let me know what you all think.
Thanks!
Peter, this is a pretty easy one...it depends. It depends on the audience that is listening to the music. I tend to under mix the volume if we have a above 50 crowd at a festival. Generally speaking at FOH 75' from the stage I stay around 90 - 96 db on a flown EAW system. If we are doing modern country, which sound surprisingly like 80's Rock and we are at a fair grounds, 5000 plus in the audience who are younger, we would be around the 102 - 110 db depending on the artist. With a rock band in the same venue we would be anywhere from 105 - 112 db. It really depends on the audience.
At home I listen to music/TV/etc except the wife at about 65 -70 db. A weighted. You really don't want to know how load she can get.
Just what we do.
Bill 8)
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Unfortunately, between potential differences in how the sound levels and response may vary throughout the listener area, the system frequency responses, the relationships of the peak and average levels, the room acoustics, etc., even churches operating with the same SPL levels at FOH may reflect two very different situations and expriences. Add in potential subjective factors and personal preferences and you can see why it is so difficult to relate what is acceptable as far as loudness to a single SPL value.
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Unfortunately, between potential differences in how the sound levels and response may vary throughout the listener area, the system frequency responses, the relationships of the peak and average levels, the room acoustics, etc., even churches operating with the same SPL levels at FOH may reflect two very different situations and expriences. Add in potential subjective factors and personal preferences and you can see why it is so difficult to relate what is acceptable as far as loudness to a single SPL value.
And this comes back to training. As we have systems that are capable of higher and higher SPL with little distortion we have experienced higher and higher levels because it does not "sound" (seem) as loud as a system producing lower level with higher levels of distortion.
Arguing that what someone likes should be the metric by which a damaging force is applied is like arguing that you like it when lasers occasionally sweep through the audience and just because a few people get hit in the eyes, causing permanent damage, that's no reason to change how you do things.
If we said, "welcome to church, this morning we are going to inject each of you with a drug that will only make some of you lose a part of your hearing. This is a policy that will continue every week and we know that the overall effects can be cumulative but it's what we like". How many people would do this? Yet, that is what some churches do. They inject audio that is damaging, at least to some, into the ears of their congregations. Damage is often not noticeable by a ringing in the ears (in most cases) although if you experience ringing then you have created damage. Damage is cumulative. Even temporary threshold shift creates damage over time.
There are no specific numbers on a meter that define the threshold where this occurs for everyone. Education and practice is the key here.
Lee
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Hey guys, I am a young church and live tech from the St. Louis area and I wanted to see what you all think. So, How loud is to loud? Concert, In- ears, or even just at home listening! Let me know what you all think.
Thanks!
Anything louder than the minimum necessary to hear what needs to be heard is too loud. And even that might be too loud if there is distortion, environmental noise, or other unwanted sound that makes it difficult to understand the desired sound.
If you are equating loudness with inspiration, it is like a drug. As you get used to it, you seek more and more to achieve the same effect. At some point, you begin creating permanent damage. Music doesn't need to be loud to stir the soul.
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Anything louder than the minimum necessary to hear what needs to be heard is too loud. And even that might be too loud if there is distortion, environmental noise, or other unwanted sound that makes it difficult to understand the desired sound.
If you are equating loudness with inspiration, it is like a drug. As you get used to it, you seek more and more to achieve the same effect. At some point, you begin creating permanent damage. Music doesn't need to be loud to stir the soul.
I disagree. With it :just loud enough to be heard" means there is no dynamic range.
Just look at classical music. It covers A VERY wide range-and if all of it was "just loud enough to be heard" it would be boring.
Having been raised "classical" (oboe was my primary instrument) , a lot of effort goes into getting the dynamic range to meet the "inspiration" of the piece.
It is hard to get any energy at "background music levels".
But everybody is entitled to their opinions.
But I do agree there is a point to where more is not better.
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[quote author=Lee Buckalew link=topic=149171.msg1370121#msg1370121 date=1397314372
There are no specific numbers on a meter that define the threshold where this occurs for everyone. Education and practice is the key here.
[/quote]
My question is should education and practice = trial and error? After 20 years at our church, I can usually tell when the volume is "on target" (assuming no head cold or other ailments). When on target there will usually be 4 or 5 that would say something-except they know I will kindly acknowledge their concern, refer them to the pastor and change nothing. I know where the most likely seats complaints will come from are, etc-so I know our definition of "too loud". I also know-considering audience-that next week when we have a youth conference, the levels will we a notch higher-and if a day later we are doing a funeral they will most likely be considerably lower.
IMO, the challenge would be to come up with a tool to speed up the learning curve and give a reference-maybe a target range-for the next generation so that the congregation does not spend another "x"number of years as guinea pigs. Would a slow, c weighted dB range at FOH provide the best guide? Would it be possible to relate that guide-case by case- to "good practice"-so a pastor who truly cares about is congregation can feel like he is doing right by them?
I agree with Ivan. I feel that limiting dynamic range to the minimum would be akin to allowing an artist to use only one color for all of his paintings. There is a time and place for fast, vibrant, loud songs and preaching-and a time and place for a quieter more reflective mood-and volume is obviously a key component setting the mood of any musical score. Our Christmas play from last year had 2 musical highlights. One a lullaby sung by Mary and Joseph to the baby Jesus, the other a powerul song of praise during the manger scene that caused me to ride gain on the master fader to keep from hurting people(though I wrestled with how loud to go). Both good songs-made incredible by the dynamic contrast between scenes.
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Anything louder than the minimum necessary to hear what needs to be heard is too loud. And even that might be too loud if there is distortion, environmental noise, or other unwanted sound that makes it difficult to understand the desired sound.
If you are equating loudness with inspiration, it is like a drug. As you get used to it, you seek more and more to achieve the same effect. At some point, you begin creating permanent damage. Music doesn't need to be loud to stir the soul.
I used to say that one persons joyous noise is another persons infernal racket, but it
occurred to me this morning that a more anagramatic statement of the situation might be the difference between a joyous noise and annoy us joys...
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Just look at classical music. It covers A VERY wide range-and if all of it was "just loud enough to be heard" it would be boring.
I don't see that being in conflict with my previous assertion, though perhaps I wasn't clear. If the loudest passages are "just loud enough to be heard" then the quietest passages will not be loud enough to be heard... and therefore it's not loud enough.
I certainly didn't mean that you should quash all dynamics and play everything just above the noise floor. Far from it; I think compression is overused. Compression has become a tool abused to make everything too loud. If you've compressed all the dynamics out of the program, there's really no difference between 10 dB above the noise floor and 30 dB above the noise floor, except that 30 dB above is annoying.
Dynamic amplitude is a good thing. So is dynamic timing. So sad to see it lacking in contemporary production.
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The way I tend to mix for Sunday services is to consider the congregation as part of the mix, normally placing it in the mix as I would a choir/tertiary BV's. The aim of this is to ensure the congregation remains engaged with what is happening. For me this normally means lower overall volumes for some songs in some services, but also allows room to push it a bit when the congregation really gets going at other times. Even when running sound for youth services this metholology tends to work.
It should be noted I am fortunate enough to be able to hear the congregation fom my current FOH position. Unfortunately this methodology doesn't quite work when stuck up a balcony or in closet. Personally I think engagement with congregation is one of the reasons we should always advocate for the FOH position to be where the congregation is.
Other good things to look out for are the looks on young children's faces - if they are smiling (or dancing) you are probaly fine, if they are screaming you may want to brings things down a little.
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[quote author=Lee Buckalew link=topic=149171.msg1370121#msg1370121 date=1397314372
There are no specific numbers on a meter that define the threshold where this occurs for everyone. Education and practice is the key here.
My question is should education and practice = trial and error? After 20 years at our church, I can usually tell when the volume is "on target" (assuming no head cold or other ailments). When on target there will usually be 4 or 5 that would say something-except they know I will kindly acknowledge their concern, refer them to the pastor and change nothing. I know where the most likely seats complaints will come from are, etc-so I know our definition of "too loud". I also know-considering audience-that next week when we have a youth conference, the levels will we a notch higher-and if a day later we are doing a funeral they will most likely be considerably lower.
IMO, the challenge would be to come up with a tool to speed up the learning curve and give a reference-maybe a target range-for the next generation so that the congregation does not spend another "x"number of years as guinea pigs. Would a slow, c weighted dB range at FOH provide the best guide? Would it be possible to relate that guide-case by case- to "good practice"-so a pastor who truly cares about is congregation can feel like he is doing right by them?
I agree with Ivan. I feel that limiting dynamic range to the minimum would be akin to allowing an artist to use only one color for all of his paintings. There is a time and place for fast, vibrant, loud songs and preaching-and a time and place for a quieter more reflective mood-and volume is obviously a key component setting the mood of any musical score. Our Christmas play from last year had 2 musical highlights. One a lullaby sung by Mary and Joseph to the baby Jesus, the other a powerul song of praise during the manger scene that caused me to ride gain on the master fader to keep from hurting people(though I wrestled with how loud to go). Both good songs-made incredible by the dynamic contrast between scenes.
In my opinion, A-weighted slow is a much better metering method to use if you're trying to correlate the level with hearing damage (or "it's too loud" annoyance). C-weighted would work better if you're trying to avoid noise complaints from neighbors.
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I often notice the perception of "too loud" is derived from the transitions from walk-in volume to worship music to pastor speaking, back to worship music. If the sound "jumps" in volume, people's reaction are often negative. Measure your room during walk-in. With people chattering, I am usually at 75 Decibels (A weighted).
When the pastor is speaking I am usually at 72 decibels. During worship music I am asked to keep my A-weighted average volume no louder than 92 Decibels. No small task when sometimes the band stage volume is 85 decibels at my mix position. But if I start the worship music volume well below the place I want it, and roll up slowly, I can obtain an average volume just under 100 decibels without complaint.
What does that mean in terms of mixing? It means at the start of a worship set I may only have vocals and light kick drum prevalent in the house mix, mixing around the ambient volume of the guitars, snare and other drums. As the first worship song progresses, people's ears adjust to the higher volume, and I can bring instruments and average volume up, again slowly, or during natural swells in the music. I also slowly bring the house volume down toward the end of worship music, so announcements or the pastor don't seem too quiet.
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In my opinion, A-weighted slow is a much better metering method to use if you're trying to correlate the level with hearing damage (or "it's too loud" annoyance). C-weighted would work better if you're trying to avoid noise complaints from neighbors.
I've learned that C-weighted is better because it picks up the frequencies of the low end which from I've seen A-weighted does not have
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I often notice the perception of "too loud" is derived from the transitions from walk-in volume to worship music to pastor speaking, back to worship music. If the sound "jumps" in volume, people's reaction are often negative. Measure your room during walk-in. With people chattering, I am usually at 75 Decibels (A weighted).
When the pastor is speaking I am usually at 72 decibels. During worship music I am asked to keep my A-weighted average volume no louder than 92 Decibels. No small task when sometimes the band stage volume is 85 decibels at my mix position. But if I start the worship music volume well below the place I want it, and roll up slowly, I can obtain an average volume just under 100 decibels without complaint.
What does that mean in terms of mixing? It means at the start of a worship set I may only have vocals and light kick drum prevalent in the house mix, mixing around the ambient volume of the guitars, snare and other drums. As the first worship song progresses, people's ears adjust to the higher volume, and I can bring instruments and average volume up, again slowly, or during natural swells in the music. I also slowly bring the house volume down toward the end of worship music, so announcements or the pastor don't seem too quiet.
One important issue that is raised in the above post is that the target SPLs for spoken word and music are generally two different things. I found that the difference is at least 10 dB, with spoken word understandable to just about everybody when at the lower level.
I generally found that slow averaging c-weighted SPLs that max out in the high 80s or low 90s were appropriate for most music in the church where I served. This was a church with a blended style of worship, which I would expect to the in the middle range of congregational preferences. In general the more contemporary the worship style, the louder the SPLs that may be desirable. However some traditional instruments such as large pipe organs when enthusiastically played can create huge SPLs throughout the sanctuary.
One of the problems with SPL meter readings is that SPL meters are generally far simpler devices than a good loudness meter, and swo they don't produce the same results. This leaves more up to the judgement of the person setting levels. It is also true that even a SOTA loudness meter is not the be-all or end-all and still needs to be interpreted with good human judgement.
IME most churches have at least a few attendees that have various forms of hearing damage that result in Hyperacusis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacusis) . This can make them very intolerant of SPL levels that are appropriate and preferable for almost all other attendees. I have found that it can be nearly impossible to reason with some people with this condition. They can be very strong willed and may try to libel and attack the technical staff, the worship director, the pastor and anybody else who is trying to meet the needs and desires of the congregation at large.
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IME most churches have at least a few attendees that have various forms of hearing damage that result in Hyperacusis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacusis) . This can make them very intolerant of SPL levels that are appropriate and preferable for almost all other attendees. I have found that it can be nearly impossible to reason with some people with this condition. They can be very strong willed and may try to libel and attack the technical staff, the worship director, the pastor and anybody else who is trying to meet the needs and desires of the congregation at large.
Yup. But whatever you do, don't make the mistake of stating (or implying) that it's the person with hyperacusis who in fact has hearing damage, rather than "those deaf guys in the sound booth"...
I've also found that offering earplugs as a solution for sensitive people (when measured SPL is well within reasonable limits), while immensely satisfying, is not particularly well received.
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Yup. But whatever you do, don't make the mistake of stating (or implying) that it's the person with hyperacusis who in fact has hearing damage, rather than "those deaf guys in the sound booth"...
Been there, done that and suffered the consequences. I find it ironic that people who allegedly subscribe to a faith (Christianity) that is based on truth can vigorously and harmfully react to it.
I've also found that offering earplugs as a solution for sensitive people (when measured SPL is well within reasonable limits), while immensely satisfying, is not particularly well received.
I've encountered several people who have allegedly tried earplugs and report no effective relief. This all in an environment where the SPL meter never reaches 90 dB at the seats in which they sit.
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How loud is too loud? Great question so lets look at it from a spiritual perspective of which I have not read and I read all the posts.. Jesus said "If I be lifted up above the earth I will draw all men unto me" Lifting Jesus above the earth is measured in the total energy of a worship service. Therefore the same question in the spiritual realm would be, how much lifting up Jesus is too much? and when that question can be answered, then so can the "How loud is too loud" for worship service, question can be answered once and for all. Remember this my fellow sound brothers, the devil is always the first one to complain when the energy levels of lifing up Jesus become too much for him to stand. We are in spiritial warfare and we need to blow the devil out of the house literally.. If somebody is demon possessed and present, you will see a reaction when the energy levels increase. I like to call this, lets blow the devil out of the house! Doesn't happen too often, I only seen it once, (demon driven out during worship service) but expect to see this more as the end approaches.. The sound system is the alarm system of the end time. How loud is too loud of an alarm system? The church sound man adjusts the volume for the way he believes God is most pleased. They say you will drive everybody out if its too loud, but I say if you can drive them out, you can drive them in. Make it as loud as absolutely possible while making subtle adjustments for the ears comfort on the way up. If the pastor doesn't trust your judgment, then you have a serious problem, just let someone else do the job and do something else like play an instrument.
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(snip)
Hey man, please head over to your profile and change your Display Name to be your real, full name, per the Rules of Participation with these ProSound Forums.
Thanks!
-Ray
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ok Ray! Thanks for the information. I will do that now.
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How loud is too loud?
Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.
Mac
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no longer relevant but I can't delete it can I? This was about putting my name in the text field, bla bla bla
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ok guys! I fixed it! Sorry about that. I have a small problem and that is, I don't normally read the directions until after I have a problem. Im pretty sure if we can't relate on any level, we can relate on this one. But I could be wrong, either way, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
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no longer relevant but I can't delete it can I? This was about putting my name in the text field, bla bla bla
Nope, can't delete it. Haha.
ok guys! I fixed it! Sorry about that. I have a small problem and that is, I don't normally read the directions until after I have a problem. Im pretty sure if we can't relate on any level, we can relate on this one. But I could be wrong, either way, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
No worries, Chris. Everyone was new on here at once. The reason this board is more particular about the real name thing is that we're all professionals on here. And, as such, we stand behind our name. There's no "hiding behind a screen name," and as such, it's found we end up with a bit more of a mature decorum then what you might find elsewhere. Personally, I enjoy it. :)
-Ray
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Makes total sense.. Nice!
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ok guys! I fixed it! Sorry about that. I have a small problem and that is, I don't normally read the directions until after I have a problem. Im pretty sure if we can't relate on any level, we can relate on this one. But I could be wrong, either way, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
That might have been an excuse if it wasn't on the registration form, and if you hadn't registered here twice before and gone through the same issue of not using your real name, and IIRC eventually being banned.
You are on a short leash here.
Mac
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That might have been an excuse if it wasn't on the registration form, and if you hadn't registered here twice before and gone through the same issue of not using your real name, and IIRC eventually being banned.
You are on a short leash here.
Mac
IIRC? Registration form? Short leash? Excuse if? Whats going on? banned? This doesnt sound good Mac. It sounds terrible and Im sorry you sound pretty upset but, since we are in the church forums Mac, I recommend Jesus. He is the best person to know, and will do you better than anyone and everyone combined. He will show you things beyond your wildest imagination, and take you on journeys of experience and teachings that will open the eyes of happiness and contentment. I never knew what true beauty was till Jesus showed me a glimpse, Wow. There is great comfort in knowing whats going to happen when I die. To talk about dying is to talk about living, as to talk about living is to talk about dying. I am going to pray for you Mac. I am going to pray that within two weeks Jesus will extend a hand of kindness and friendship to you, whether by or though people inviting you to church, or maybe a much more greater experience that will blow your mind. Look for it Mac, and hope it happens. Because that means you will be and are blessed. Why? because Jesus the supreme most beautiful in the universe has taken a moment to consider you.
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IIRC? Registration form? Short leash? Excuse if? Whats going on? banned? This doesnt sound good Mac. It sounds terrible and Im sorry you sound pretty upset but, since we are in the church forums Mac, I recommend Jesus. (cut out religious spiel)
Chris, Mac's one of the moderators here-- for the whole board, not just the Church Forums. If he says you've been here before, he is probably right. The whole "You need to use your full name" thing *is* on the registration page, as well as the "Required Reading For New Members" thread "Sticky" on every page.
Religion is one of those funny things that some people swear by it, others avoid it religiously (get it? haha. I slay myself.). Yes, we're on the Church forums, but some non-believers come in here as well, because audio production knows no limits. If we limited this forum to only church-goers (and then we have to further limit it by religion! Catholics here, Hindus there, etc...) they would not be nearly as useful.
With that said, I think you might be better off not a) assuming that Mac doesn't already go to church (I don't know, to be candid) and b) giving that sort of admonition with such limited participation experience. Just a thought...
-Ray
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Chris, Mac's one of the moderators here-- for the whole board, not just the Church Forums. If he says you've been here before, he is probably right. The whole "You need to use your full name" thing *is* on the registration page, as well as the "Required Reading For New Members" thread "Sticky" on every page.
Thanks Ray, I hate to say it, but I still have not seen one of these "sticky" on every page, but when I am finished with this I will look for it.. I do see a lot of commercials though. And the registration? Seriously, does anybody actually read all that before signing up? Like these apps with pages and pages of who knows what you have to agree to before downloading an app, does anybody read those? Maybe its just me.
Religion is one of those funny things that some people swear by it, others avoid it religiously (get it? haha. I slay myself.). Yes, we're on the Church forums, but some non-believers come in here as well, because audio production knows no limits. If we limited this forum to only church-goers (and then we have to further limit it by religion! Catholics here, Hindus there, etc...) they would not be nearly as useful.
I agree, but I also think that when one goes into a 'church' forum that freedom of religion is 'tolerated'? Because it plays an important role in the decision making process and directs the sound mans choices and decisions in a church environment. To leave that out I think is limiting the full scope of reasoning.
With that said, I think you might be better off not a) assuming that Mac doesn't already go to church (I don't know, to be candid) and b) giving that sort of admonition with such limited participation experience. Just a thought...
-Ray
Thanks Ray, I sincerely appreciate the insight into forum operation.
I believe wisdom recognizes wisdom, Mac I'm certain is a great guy, he's trying to help me out by letting me know Im on a short leash and I can appreciate that and hope that my sincere acts of sincere kindness are not cause for anger.
I would assume a spiritual mindset if spiritual practices were exercised, for example, forgiveness? forgive and forget? There is something going on in the past that must have been incredible that just the mention of my name provokes a response of concern.. I am going to do a search of my name to see what I get, Im totally curious.
(admonition?)
Thanks
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So I looked up admonition, and I don't see that, but what I did see that 7 years ago (Yes Seven) Chris Haywood was here, but I didn't see anything bad that he said or did, so I guess my curiosity remains unsatisfied. But I clicked on the name to see what I could get and it went to me, serious spooky. Maybe the devil doesn't want me here, but I believe I have a unique contribution that will be found no where else on the web and enhancing the uniqueness and overall value of prosoundweb. So let us judge by what is said and not let something that happened 7 years ago cloud our otherwise good judgment nor let it effect our interpretation. I think that is reasonable? I come here with no offensive intentions at all.
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I would assume a spiritual mindset if spiritual practices were exercised, for example, forgiveness? forgive and forget?
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperence...."
I am sure if you exhibited most or all of these fruits, Mac would be the first to forgive and forget.
I am here to participate in quality, useful dialogue to enable me to provide better sound for our church. I have received much helpful advice here, perhaps even been able to help others once or twice. But above all, I hope that whatever I do or say here would encourage (and at least not discourage)others, unbelievers or not, to want to know Him.
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I agree, but I also think that when one goes into a 'church' forum that freedom of religion is 'tolerated'? Because it plays an important role in the decision making process and directs the sound mans choices and decisions in a church environment. To leave that out I think is limiting the full scope of reasoning.
I agree that freedom of religion should be tolerated and expected, and I will respect anyone and their religious beliefs. However, I don't go to church myself, can't agree with the Bible's explanation of the formation of the universe when compared to scientific evidence, and to be blunt, I see more insanity in the world on the grounds of religion then anything else. Because of all of that, a paragraph such as the one you gave, of twelve sentences going on about the awesomeness of Jesus-- well, that would turn me off from even reading someone's posts, let alone want to help them with their church sound problem. That's what I meant earlier when I said audio production knows no limits. Whether a system is in a church or a stadium, the underlying principles are the same. Signal flow still works the same way, 3Ø power is still 3Ø power, and so on. If only religious believers could post/were allowed in here, we'd have a really lame forum.
So, I am not saying religion or religious beliefs are wrong or bad to have, just that (even though we're in the Church forum) maybe it would be best to keep that sort of 12-sentence reflection to a minimum. You just don't know what someone's religious relationship might be already! (Or what religion it is... since this forum doesn't restrict based on a belief in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior. I'm not an expert, but doesn't the Mormon religion believe that He was not the Lord and Savior, but is rather just a prophet? Clearly, I am not Mormon. Haha.)
A final thought: Some people work during the week, and serve and honor God at church on Sundays, others don't go to church, and serve their fellow man in their own way. Mac gives a lot of his time and energy to this forum, and the insight he gives to the inner workings of some *major* events has been really cool over the years.
(When I said "admonition," I was referring to the 12-sentence paragraph you directed towards Mac, admonishing him to seek a relationship with Jesus Christ.)
-Ray
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IIRC? Registration form? Short leash? Excuse if? Whats going on? banned? This doesnt sound good Mac. It sounds terrible and Im sorry you sound pretty upset but, since we are in the church forums Mac, I recommend Jesus. He is the best person to know, and will do you better than anyone and everyone combined. He will show you things beyond your wildest imagination, and take you on journeys of experience and teachings that will open the eyes of happiness and contentment. I never knew what true beauty was till Jesus showed me a glimpse, Wow. There is great comfort in knowing whats going to happen when I die. To talk about dying is to talk about living, as to talk about living is to talk about dying. I am going to pray for you Mac. I am going to pray that within two weeks Jesus will extend a hand of kindness and friendship to you, whether by or though people inviting you to church, or maybe a much more greater experience that will blow your mind. Look for it Mac, and hope it happens. Because that means you will be and are blessed. Why? because Jesus the supreme most beautiful in the universe has taken a moment to consider you.
You have one more chance. These forums are for the discussion of the sound issues that are particular to the HOW market. They are not for you to preach your particular religious views. Stick to that and you can stick around and get something out of these forums, and perhaps give something back to them. Continue down the road you're on and you will be gone one more time.
Mac
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"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperence...."
I am sure if you exhibited most or all of these fruits, Mac would be the first to forgive and forget.
I am here to participate in quality, useful dialogue to enable me to provide better sound for our church. I have received much helpful advice here, perhaps even been able to help others once or twice. But above all, I hope that whatever I do or say here would encourage (and at least not discourage)others, unbelievers or not, to want to know Him.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperence...."
I am sure if you exhibited most or all of these fruits, Mac would be the first to forgive and forget.
I am here to participate in quality, useful dialogue to enable me to provide better sound for our church. I have received much helpful advice here, perhaps even been able to help others once or twice. But above all, I hope that whatever I do or say here would encourage (and at least not discourage)others, unbelievers or not, to want to know Him.
"You will know them by their fruits." Of which fruits are you referring to that "If I exhibited" that I did NOT exhibit are you referring to. I want to be better, surely you must be thinking of something in particular that I have fallen short on. Please tell me and don't leave me guessing. How can I be better if you won't tell me?
I think what you have to say about to want to know him, is admirable, rooted in excellence. Therefore counsel me my brother, I desire to know where I fall short.
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I agree that freedom of religion should be tolerated and expected, and I will respect anyone and their religious beliefs. However, I don't go to church myself, can't agree with the Bible's explanation of the formation of the universe when compared to scientific evidence, and to be blunt, I see more insanity in the world on the grounds of religion then anything else. Because of all of that, a paragraph such as the one you gave, of twelve sentences going on about the awesomeness of Jesus-- well, that would turn me off from even reading someone's posts, let alone want to help them with their church sound problem. That's what I meant earlier when I said audio production knows no limits. Whether a system is in a church or a stadium, the underlying principles are the same. Signal flow still works the same way, 3Ø power is still 3Ø power, and so on. If only religious believers could post/were allowed in here, we'd have a really lame forum.
So, I am not saying religion or religious beliefs are wrong or bad to have, just that (even though we're in the Church forum) maybe it would be best to keep that sort of 12-sentence reflection to a minimum. You just don't know what someone's religious relationship might be already! (Or what religion it is... since this forum doesn't restrict based on a belief in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior. I'm not an expert, but doesn't the Mormon religion believe that He was not the Lord and Savior, but is rather just a prophet? Clearly, I am not Mormon. Haha.)
A final thought: Some people work during the week, and serve and honor God at church on Sundays, others don't go to church, and serve their fellow man in their own way. Mac gives a lot of his time and energy to this forum, and the insight he gives to the inner workings of some *major* events has been really cool over the years.
(When I said "admonition," I was referring to the 12-sentence paragraph you directed towards Mac, admonishing him to seek a relationship with Jesus Christ.)
-Ray
I think you have a great attitude Ray, and I will stop 'preaching', although I have witnessed both sides miracles and spiritual experiences, Ive seen demon possession, in fact I was choked by a demon possessed roommate when I was in juvenal hall when I was a bad boy. And I have thousands of answered prayers that are mathematically impossible. I agree, religion has lots of issues, but I would like you to consider one thing.. And that is consider yourself on your death bed seriously because you will face it one day no matter what. Do you know who or what is on the other side? There was an athiest who taught his children to shake their fist at heaven and say God you don't exist! there is no God, but when he was on his death bed he called is children and said everything I taught was wrong, atheism may be ok to live by, but its not ok to die by, he was terrified white as a ghost. So plan for that day now so when it comes you will be comfortable and ready. Jesus was here its in the history books and can't be denied, he was also the first one to ever raise anybody from the dead. I personally think history all by itself gives me a direction to head for the future. Don't put it off or it will sneak up on you when its too late. Surely you can recognize intelligent design when you see a framed house how simple it is, yet how much more complex are you? You don't recognize intelligent design when you look in the mirror? What do you see? A blob of chance? Impossible. Did you know that some of the stars calculate to be older than the big bang theory? ok sorry, Im going on and on like I'm saying that mixer didn't come from some falling rock out of the sky, impossible right? but mathematically more possible than you coming from slime or whatever they are saying these days. Everything didn't come from nothing Ray.
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You have one more chance. These forums are for the discussion of the sound issues that are particular to the HOW market. They are not for you to preach your particular religious views. Stick to that and you can stick around and get something out of these forums, and perhaps give something back to them. Continue down the road you're on and you will be gone one more time.
Mac
Thank you Mac. Im sorry, (for the offenses it may have caused) I will not do any more preaching. It was kind of an accident, but Thank you for letting me stay, I like it here.
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(more religious jumbo)
Chris, it's posts like that which will lead me to two results: a) 'ignoring' your posts and b) not want to work with you on events. Sound and event production is about the gear, the people working it, and the clients that are paying us. Being religious: Not bad. To each their own, after all! However, espousing a major religious belief like that could turn people off from hiring you for events. I wouldn't want to work with someone who is going to spend all of their time telling me what I am doing wrong with my life spiritually.
You're in my area, by the way, so yeah, it could come up! (Always helpful when people put their locations in their profiles! :) )
-Ray
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Chris, it's posts like that which will lead me to two results: a) 'ignoring' your posts and b) not want to work with you on events. Sound and event production is about the gear, the people working it, and the clients that are paying us. Being religious: Not bad. To each their own, after all! However, espousing a major religious belief like that could turn people off from hiring you for events. I wouldn't want to work with someone who is going to spend all of their time telling me what I am doing wrong with my life spiritually.
You're in my area, by the way, so yeah, it could come up! (Always helpful when people put their locations in their profiles! :) )
-Ray
Ok Ray, just so you know, when I am setting up I don't really have anytime to talk about 'religious' things so you won't have to worry about it. Trust me, if we ever work together it will be a good experience. I don't really travel anywhere far unless its big dollars. My primary income is not sound related. Therefore I am terribly picky about events. In fact I don't do non Christian events at all, and I avoid Christian events if we have the multiple groups and no prep thing going on, unless I am not told something which happens a lot more with groups of course... I can be choosy, and I am, But as I get older, I seem to be getting a little more lazy, the more i say no, the less I get propositioned. I was going to start an all out sound business years ago, I still have the domain, but no site on it, HighFidelityLive.com. I still have one big conference I do in late July in a gym in Tacoma. I use my living room system for that, or at least most of it.
Last year I got a Crown IT-6000 and a gk bass head ripped off. I think I am going to require some reimbursement if I do it again this year. (removed it might have been a sermon or preaching or something, just in case)
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Chris,
As the saying goes, the boss may not always be right, but they ARE always the boss. When they put on the "bars", one's options are limited to a salute. End of story. As for Mac, he needs no defense from the likes of me; he has EARNED the respect of everyone on the board both through his experiences and the way he has managed the board. Most always, if he calls someone out, he deserves the respectful simple answer of "yes sir".
As a Believer and a man of faith, you know God gave us two ears and two eyes - and but one tongue. A ratio of absorbing material at a rate of four to one of espousing one's thoughts is about right.
As far as (paraphrasing) "turning up the volume to drive the devil out" ... Pardon me, that is quite a leap of faith. The SOUND FORUM concern was patron safety and comfort, though that WAS a unique view behind the reasoning of loud church music.
Though this is a church forum, we want to deal with SOUND problems and solutions in "worship" - whether they be Christian, Jewish, LDS, Islamic, at a pagan festival, or at any number of well-recognized or not-so-well-recognized "churches".
Sensitivity vs. censorship - No one here is trying to censor you - but if you are consistently off-topic on SOUND related posts, you'll find yourself on many's "ignore" list, with your posts never to be seen by those most able to help.
Sometimes you just need to let someone else have the last word. Not everything requires a response. Such as this.
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You are right Frank, not everything requires a response. Im not looking for the last word, just a little more insight and maybe some help in understanding your position.
(removed something about off topic, didn't sound as nice as I would like so I removed it)
We were finished, conversation was over.
Either you didn't know that or deep down inside you wanted a response by starting a conversation. Im a nice guy and want to acknowledge your existence by responding which I believe considers you in my decision. I hope you don't get angry with me for that.
I will keep my response simple because I believe that is what you want, therefore my response is, that I will NEVER consider myself so well informed that I can ignore what other people have to say before they say it. So don't worry Frank, even though you may stray off topic from time to time, i will NEVER ignore you, and I will NEVER put anybody on my ignore list no matter what. Because to me, every human is unique and valuable, and if that is true, then there must be value somewhere in something they have to say. When somebody shuts down another person by ignoring them, they only increase their blindness.
How? because when you ignore somebody, you turn off all the insight they have to offer that was accumulated over their entire lifetime, and therefore now become blind to it. The more people that are ignored the greater the blindness, until the only thing you can see is yourself in a self-appointed position that exceeds all mankind.
And I almost forgot to mention, Remember when Jesus said "Love you enemies as yourself"? The wisdom in that statement is- that even your enemies may have that certain piece of information or insight that can change your life forever. Let us not be so quick to shut somebody down or off.