Post by: Geert Friedhof on March 01, 2018, 12:48:41 PM
A drummer has no problem paying $6000 for a drumkit, and another 2000 for cymbals which are way to loud.
A keyboard player has no problem paying $5000 for some synths, and another 2000 for his own monitoring.
But when it comes to buying a PA they ALWAYS wanna buy the cheapest, crappiest stuff.
Why, oh why?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 01, 2018, 01:06:19 PM
A guitarist has no problem paying $4000 for a guitar, 2000 for an amp and another 2000 for all kind of noisy pedal stuff.
A drummer has no problem paying $6000 for a drumkit, and another 2000 for cymbals which are way to loud.
A keyboard player has no problem paying $5000 for some synths, and another 2000 for his own monitoring.
But when it comes to buying a PA they ALWAYS wanna buy the cheapest, crappiest stuff.
Why, oh why?
Because sound is invisible and musicians don't "play" the PA. It's an appliance like the home laundry machines and unless you get into the dirty details of cleaning clothing, there is no difference between the $400 washer and the $1000 washer - if they both do basic cleaning why pay more? Not that I agree with that mentality but it's pervasive in all types of capital equipment purchases.
Post by: Scott Olewiler on March 01, 2018, 02:03:45 PM
Post by: Art Nadelman on March 01, 2018, 03:04:15 PM
I think it can also be because a lot of musicians only think about themselves. Same reason why I can't get the guitarist to turn down even though he is ruining my mix. He only cares about what he sounds like, not the entire band.
👍
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 01, 2018, 03:19:05 PM
Post by: Tom Roche on March 01, 2018, 03:34:08 PM
To expand a little... In my experience, few working musicians possess more than a basic working knowledge of PA gear. Their entry to mid-level MI gear gets the job done and they get paid. Similarly, I've seen a couple of bands that had good PA gear, but had no clue how to deploy or provide a good mix.
Post by: Lyle Williams on March 01, 2018, 04:01:52 PM
Now they are repeating the process with PA gear.
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on March 01, 2018, 04:30:24 PM
A guitarist has no problem paying $4000 for a guitar, 2000 for an amp and another 2000 for all kind of noisy pedal stuff.
A drummer has no problem paying $6000 for a drumkit, and another 2000 for cymbals which are way to loud.
A keyboard player has no problem paying $5000 for some synths, and another 2000 for his own monitoring.
But when it comes to buying a PA they ALWAYS wanna buy the cheapest, crappiest stuff.
Why, oh why?
Same reason an electrician like myself will have Klein tools and a Fluke meter, etc and a Harbor Freight jack in my garage while the mechanic down the street will have a Snap On or Mac set of tools and a Harbor Freight meter...
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 01, 2018, 04:30:50 PM
Post by: Bob Leonard on March 01, 2018, 04:41:34 PM
So, when "the band" buys a PA it's now what the group can afford, and because no one in particular owns the PA it will be comprised of the lowest cost shit money can buy that will make loud sound. Not good sound, but loud sound.
Any serious player with a vested interest in good sound will pony up for the real deal. Any player who doesn't expect to be around for more than a year or two won't. In over 55 years I have never asked anyone in any of my bands to contribute to the cost of the PA, which relates to everything said above. Abuse my hardware, piss and moan about silly shit, and I'll show you the door in a heart beat. And no problems paying you for what you contributed to the sound system. Nothing.
Post by: Scott Helmke on March 01, 2018, 05:07:31 PM
a) it'll be another source of fights when they break up
b) half the band won't help to set it up
c) not any fun to own, store, move, or maintain
Post by: Steve Crump on March 01, 2018, 05:20:02 PM
That's also why the sound guys gets paid so little. They aren't actually DOing anything, right?
Around the area I live bands don't make enough to have great PA gear. They only reason they buy their own PA gear is because they want to play and feel like they can't afford to pay a sound guy for each show. Most are hobbyist and have decent jobs and buy good instruments because they may play with multiple bands and at church. And sometimes they get a good gig where sound is provided. Most of the bands I know would much rather play and leave the sound for someone else. Of course, their willingness to play cheap, also is one of the reasons it pays so little. It is like a guitar player told me, "man I used to get $100.00 to "stand in" on a Saturday night in the 70s and now they want to hand me $50.00...
Off subject a little, more to do with soundguy's pay and venue's attitude toward having to pay...
Not long ago I was hired (hand shake deal) to provide sound in a local venue, they had a charting artist coming with a three pc. Room only holds 200. One of those dinner and an evening with _____ type shows. The promoter for this show, who operates a club a few states over was working with the venue trying to help them establish a regular schedule and route for small tours, he decided at the last minute "why pay someone to do the sound" I was fired and for FOH he brought some old JBL EONs on stands setting on the stage, and right beneath the EONs, slightly in front he sat on the floor of the stage the Presonus powered speakers, (this combo and setup didn't work well).
Long story, short. My wife was hired to take marketing pictures that night, so I was there and I heard the promoter tell the venue owner, ("all you need is an inexpensive mixing board and a couple speakers and stands and let one of your staff run the show, one of the young guys from the kitchen who helped me sat up today, seemed like he would like to learn. You don't have to spend that much on gear") (something like that)
Post by: Steve Crump on March 01, 2018, 05:27:47 PM
Post by: Mike Caldwell on March 01, 2018, 09:34:17 PM
A guitarist has no problem paying $4000 for a guitar, 2000 for an amp and another 2000 for all kind of noisy pedal stuff.
A drummer has no problem paying $6000 for a drumkit, and another 2000 for cymbals which are way to loud.
A keyboard player has no problem paying $5000 for some synths, and another 2000 for his own monitoring.
But when it comes to buying a PA they ALWAYS wanna buy the cheapest, crappiest stuff.
Why, oh why?
That same analogy can be said for the front lead vocalist of that same example of a band who goes all out and buys a Nady wireless mic.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on March 01, 2018, 10:17:18 PM
I still see PRS, DW, Neumann on stage going through eons......
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 01, 2018, 10:46:08 PM
I've been saying this for years - it drives me mad. The signal chain starts at the source - mic/instrument and ends at the speakers with the overall sound quality only as good as the weakest link will allow.
I still see PRS, DW, Neumann on stage going through eons......
That same analogy can be said for the front lead vocalist of that same example of a band who goes all out and buys a Nady wireless mic.
Garbage in, certainly garbage out. Mics are small enough that I can carry a few with me if I have particular needs but speakers? Eh... no.
So I'm one of the audio stage hands at our local PAC, which hosts about half the high school graduations in town. At one ceremony a couple years ago we had a nylon string acoustic guitar and vocalist. The PAC has some good mics so I hit the locker for an AKG C-460 for the guitar and a C535 for the vocalist. The music teacher and the Principal both commented later about how it sounded; the year before that when the ukulele was a hot item I used a C451E (an original, probably 35 years old) for the uke and because the singer wanted to close-mic, a Shure SM-59. Again, music teacher comes up after rehearsal to comment.
The room is a fan-shaped box with terrazzo floors, plaster ceiling and some tectum on the walls, for up to 5,000. The PA is EV DeltaMax behind the proscenium 'eyebrow' with a delay ring of DeltaMax for the balcony. Every bit of that is probably 30 years old... And the mics still make a noticeable difference.
Mike, I too fail to grok how a singer can buy the cheapest wireless out there and then complain about the way his/her monitor sounds. When I hand them a wired 58 and the problems disappear I smile on the outside whilst saying "see, I told you so" on the inside...
Post by: Rob Spence on March 02, 2018, 12:17:22 AM
I've been saying this for years - it drives me mad. The signal chain starts at the source - mic/instrument and ends at the speakers with the overall sound quality only as good as the weakest link will allow.
I still see PRS, DW, Neumann on stage going through eons......
Singers who don’t even own a mic...
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Post by: Caleb Dueck on March 02, 2018, 07:40:09 AM
Singers who don’t even own a mic...
And acoustic guitar players who don't even own a 1/4" cable.
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Post by: frank kayser on March 02, 2018, 09:47:52 AM
With marketing pictures including that "speaker array" will be sure to impress any small tour to be sure to put that venue on their tour list. Not. Short sighted, for sure. Is this a corollary to "buy once, cry once"?
<snip>
Off subject a little, more to do with soundguy's pay and venue's attitude toward having to pay...
Not long ago I was hired (hand shake deal) to provide sound in a local venue, they had a charting artist coming with a three pc. Room only holds 200. One of those dinner and an evening with _____ type shows. The promoter for this show, who operates a club a few states over was working with the venue trying to help them establish a regular schedule and route for small tours, he decided at the last minute "why pay someone to do the sound" I was fired and for FOH he brought some old JBL EONs on stands setting on the stage, and right beneath the EONs, slightly in front he sat on the floor of the stage the Presonus powered speakers, (this combo and setup didn't work well).
Long story, short. My wife was hired to take marketing pictures that night, so I was there and I heard the promoter tell the venue owner, ("all you need is an inexpensive mixing board and a couple speakers and stands and let one of your staff run the show, one of the young guys from the kitchen who helped me sat up today, seemed like he would like to learn. You don't have to spend that much on gear") (something like that)
How many bullet holes that promoter have in his feet?
Post by: Steve Crump on March 02, 2018, 10:48:41 AM
With marketing pictures including that "speaker array" will be sure to impress any small tour to be sure to put that venue on their tour list. Not. Short sighted, for sure. Is this a corollary to "buy once, cry once"?
How many bullet holes that promoter have in his feet?
Despite the sound quality, people loved the show... I guess enough beer, wine and food?
Nothing met the rider by the way.
I know this post started off with why musicians buy the type gear they do, but I have been in several listening rooms, either with a band or to see an artist, and the room has crap gear or either the gear has not been maintained and these rooms still get great artist with well thought out riders. So, it's not just bands buying so so gear.
Post by: Nathan Riddle on March 02, 2018, 12:06:26 PM
👍
I'm stealing this for future use ;)
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 02, 2018, 12:15:03 PM
So, when "the band" buys a PA it's now what the group can afford, and because no one in particular owns the PA it will be comprised of the lowest cost shit money can buy that will make loud sound. Not good sound, but loud sound.
Working in an office environment that doesn't have janitorial service, I've found that when it's everybody's job, it's seen as someone else's job. And if it's seen as someone else's job, it becomes nobody's job. No matter what "it" is. Since there's no janitorial service and "everybody" is expected to pitch in to keep the office clean, the wastebaskets overflow, the soap dispenser is empty, and the toilet looks like shit (sometimes literally).
When the whole band is responsible for the PA system, the same thing happens. Everybody thinks "someone else" should do something about it, and that means that nobody takes any responsibility.
Now, if you give responsibility to ONE person, the whole picture changes. If one of the band members plays an instrument AND owns and runs the PA, that band member really should get double the take of everyone else because, in effect, he's got twice the responsibility and the PA is legitimately and "instrument". So, in a way, the other members of the band are renting rather than paying for the PA, so don't have the burden of maintaining and operating it.
Post by: Chris Hindle on March 02, 2018, 12:19:54 PM
Despite the sound quality, people loved the show... I guess enough beer, wine and food?
Nothing met the rider by the way.
I know this post started off with why musicians buy the type gear they do, but I have been in several listening rooms, either with a band or to see an artist, and the room has crap gear or either the gear has not been maintained and these rooms still get great artist with well thought out riders. So, it's not just bands buying so so gear.
Comes down to dollars.
Wanna get paid? Here's the gear.
I had one band that called me in to briefcase their rig for "special occasions"
Once, I suggested my rig, as the occasion was "significant" to them.
I did 75 shows a year, for three years, once they heard what a real system could do for them. I cut them a deal. They carried and lifted, I drove the truck, and mixed the show.
Chris.
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 02, 2018, 03:17:33 PM
I'm thinking about holding a seminar for vocal students, with a wide variety if vocal mics to try, to help find the one that matches their particular needs. Record the various choices and pick the best fit. Then work out any EQ settings to get the last bit. Hand the mic and EQ request to the sound guy, and they're mostly there with a consistent sound.
Post by: Craig Hauber on March 02, 2018, 04:28:26 PM
I think Tim has it. Folks touch or hear their own equipment. But the PA is playing out to the audience and they don't really hear what it sounds like in the same way they hear their amplifiers behind them.Even when they do buy quality gear it's still being run from the stage in an ad-hoc set-and-forget fashion.
Many times I could run the lowliest Kustom box-mixer PA-package better from out-front than some bands with the latest and greatest on stage.
Knock it all you want, but that Bose Stick-PA when set up amongst the ensemble forces a group to listen more to their overall mix. (from my casual exposure to a few groups using one properly)
Too bad it can't handle louder rock type bar-bands. -because once you buy multiples and deploy them left&right out front you're now back to the original problem.
I do also notice that the manufacturers marketing gear at this level subtly encourage musicians to do things themselves and not need a sound operator.
So thank-you M-I audio manufacturers for your part in helping screw everything up!
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 02, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
I came from the musician/band side before diving into live audio. I was the guitar player with too much gear, who eventually was the one with the rehearsal space, the van, did all the booking, merch orders, and eventually sound duties because no one else wanted to.
We totally did the same thing with high end instruments and horrible PA equipment when we started out. When you're a musician, you talk to other guitarists, read guitar magazines, and are convinced you need the best gear to sound like a pro. You can touch it, feel it, and use it at every gig. No one in my immediate circle that I talked to knew anything about PA gear, so we just assumed it was really simple and either didn't need much thought on the small scale, or was out of our budget for the big scale stuff and we hired PA/techs whenever the venue didn't have what we needed to present ourselves professionally.
The "PA" mostly stayed in the rehearsal space unless it was a special circumstance (until later when my inventory started getting unhealthily obsessive) so it wasn't seen as a high priority investment compared to new pedals or amps or other things with flashing lights and cool colours. (No disrespect to musicians, I realize I sound like I'm talking about cats but I'm speaking about myself so I'm allowed to).
My guitar rig was used in all kinds of PA systems and studios and sounded great with professionals in control. As a business, it does make sense to invest more in the equipment that supports the greatest percentage of your work. Conversely, my early PA was used at maybe 10% of our gigs, and that's probably generous (house partys, etc), and the crowds were so small that it was mostly just for vocals so again, there was no "value" in spending more.
Speaking of which, I need to track down a few former singers who still have my mics....
Post by: John L Nobile on March 02, 2018, 07:04:36 PM
Post by: W. Mark Hellinger on March 03, 2018, 08:50:25 PM
Routinely at our band practice sessions, we discuss that which is seeming lacking in our product as well as our competition's... as well as review videos of our past performances.
We all pitch-in on the sound and lighting rig... especially set-up and tear-down... each band member has their tasks and we have a thought-out method. Admittedly I took the lead on the performance system, as that is more-so my aptitude than my band mates', and admittedly I've simplified our performance system(s) to the seeming best of a diminished point of return... best performance for the least amount of complications, and admittedly we've all invested some time in education of how and why it all works... with we me doing a lot of the explaining and they being interested students.
The performance system is just part of the whole as we all help as best as possible with all the other band aspects with the goal of performing the best we reasonably can as a whole without selling our souls. Individually none of us "draw", but as a group we seem to. It's not been easy (we've had our band moments) but it's not rocket science either.
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 04, 2018, 10:59:03 AM
Big box stores have been doing the same "you can do it, we can help" thing convincing homeowners they don't need qualified contractors for years. It's up to us to show the consumers that we are worth it.I have a local electrician who still hasn't returned my phone calls from January...
He showed me what he was worth.
JR
Post by: Keith Broughton on March 04, 2018, 11:48:12 AM
Working in an office environment that doesn't have janitorial service, I've found that when it's everybody's job, it's seen as someone else's job. And if it's seen as someone else's job, it becomes nobody's job.As Douglas Adams noted, some things have an SEP field around them.
Somebody Elses Problem ;D
I can't believe how adults treat a common area in a work environment.
They would bitch at their kids if the same thing happened at home ;)
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on March 05, 2018, 04:16:35 AM
It's always puzzled me why good singers don't carry their own mic. Everyone else in the band has spent $ and time getting their sound just so, but the vocalist walks up to whatever is there.
I'm thinking about holding a seminar for vocal students, with a wide variety if vocal mics to try, to help find the one that matches their particular needs. Record the various choices and pick the best fit. Then work out any EQ settings to get the last bit. Hand the mic and EQ request to the sound guy, and they're mostly there with a consistent sound.
One artist I have worked with regularly, purchased their own mic (AKG D7) so they had a good consistent mic to use. The number of times they have gone to different gig's (not provided by me) and been forced to use the crappy beaten up old 58 (or worse) that was provided has been an eye opener. They were happy with any of the other band members instruments but would not allow the singer to change out to her mic.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 05, 2018, 09:42:38 AM
One artist I have worked with regularly, purchased their own mic (AKG D7) so they had a good consistent mic to use. The number of times they have gone to different gig's (not provided by me) and been forced to use the crappy beaten up old 58 (or worse) that was provided has been an eye opener. They were happy with any of the other band members instruments but would not allow the singer to change out to her mic.
The mic unplugs. Singer walks up, switches mics and show starts. Unless in Kiwi-Land the club bouncer stands on stage to stop the singer, how to they "not allow" the mic swap?
"Look, you guys can give this 58 to someone else, but in case you haven't noticed the flu is really bad this year and I'm using my own mic."
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 05, 2018, 01:35:49 PM
Post by: Rob Spence on March 05, 2018, 07:22:08 PM
I've run into quite a few musicians that can't get a good sound out of 1 small amp or a collection of wood/metal and skins What would happen if you let them loose on a large PA??
I guess you get loud bad sound
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Post by: Debbie Dunkley on March 05, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
I guess you get loud bad sound
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I have a T shirt that say's, " If the band sounds like crap, I make them sound like crap LOUDER"
Post by: frank kayser on March 05, 2018, 07:43:07 PM
The mic unplugs. Singer walks up, switches mics and show starts. Unless in Kiwi-Land the club bouncer stands on stage to stop the singer, how to they "not allow" the mic swap?
"Look, you guys can give this 58 to someone else, but in case you haven't noticed the flu is really bad this year and I'm using my own mic."
I did see a post on this site a while ago where someone was complaining that an artist walked in after he had rung out the monitors with his mic of choice, the venerable SM58. He acted as if it were a personal affront of some kind to make the request. Maybe it was timing.
As far as the artist simply unplugging the supplied mic and replacing it with one of their choice can wreak havoc especially if the replacement mic is much more sensitive, or has a much lower gain before feedback. (I'm telling Tim this? d'OH! Where are my manners!) Maybe the sound guy has already headed out back to have a smoke... the mic wailing and gnashing of teeth everywhere in sonic range (that does not include the smoking area)
Personally, I always encourage someone to use their own mic - I consider a mic a *very* personal item - almost a personal hygiene item. I believe completely that one should be careful sharing a mic especially during the flu season.
Folks usually bring their Beta 58s or some other decent mic. I put up with what they bring unless defective or absolutely horrible. Mostly it shows that I am offering them some respect as an individual and that tends to start the relationship off on a better foot. Also it gives me time to adjust rather than react to a possible sonic mess when they change a hot mic.
One advantage of being a low-level-Lounge-member is that I can usually afford to baby the folks a bit, if I choose, and unlike the "A" headliners, these folks that seldom see a sound guy are a little grateful that I made an adjustment just for them. Repeats actually like to see me.
frank
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 05, 2018, 10:30:06 PM
I did see a post on this site a while ago where someone was complaining that an artist walked in after he had rung out the monitors with his mic of choice, the venerable SM58. He acted as if it were a personal affront of some kind to make the request. Maybe it was timing.
As far as the artist simply unplugging the supplied mic and replacing it with one of their choice can wreak havoc especially if the replacement mic is much more sensitive, or has a much lower gain before feedback. (I'm telling Tim this? d'OH! Where are my manners!) Maybe the sound guy has already headed out back to have a smoke... the mic wailing and gnashing of teeth everywhere in sonic range (that does not include the smoking area)
Personally, I always encourage someone to use their own mic - I consider a mic a *very* personal item - almost a personal hygiene item. I believe completely that one should be careful sharing a mic especially during the flu season.
Folks usually bring their Beta 58s or some other decent mic. I put up with what they bring unless defective or absolutely horrible. Mostly it shows that I am offering them some respect as an individual and that tends to start the relationship off on a better foot. Also it gives me time to adjust rather than react to a possible sonic mess when they change a hot mic.
One advantage of being a low-level-Lounge-member is that I can usually afford to baby the folks a bit, if I choose, and unlike the "A" headliners, these folks that seldom see a sound guy are a little grateful that I made an adjustment just for them. Repeats actually like to see me.
frank
The real fun is watching the non-action after swapping the 58 for an SM86... because the 86 needs phantom power.
The point really is that in Jonathan's post either the soundperson is an asshole or perhaps there is no soundperson and everything is preset and left in place or perhaps the venue has an endorsement gig with a particular brand... no matter what, if a singer wants to use his/her personal mic I'm going to give it a tryout. If it's not going to work I'll offer to freshly sanitize an SM58 for them but I'll try their mic first. IF this was in a HoW I can see where a drastic change in mics could/would affect Aviom stem mixes as well.
I had a festival act that wanted to use the vocalist's Neumann KMS105, and because I use SM86 on that stage it was fairly easy for my monitor tech and was fine for FOH. Might not have been as easy a swap on stages wrung out for SM58s.
Some bands/singers want stupid shit, others just want to use their own mics. Give me the latter folks every time.
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 05, 2018, 11:52:46 PM
It's really fun when they can hear the difference in the monitors (and the PA). :D
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on March 06, 2018, 12:02:21 AM
The real fun is watching the non-action after swapping the 58 for an SM86... because the 86 needs phantom power.
The point really is that in Jonathan's post either the soundperson is an asshole or perhaps there is no soundperson and everything is preset and left in place or perhaps the venue has an endorsement gig with a particular brand... no matter what, if a singer wants to use his/her personal mic I'm going to give it a tryout. If it's not going to work I'll offer to freshly sanitize an SM58 for them but I'll try their mic first. IF this was in a HoW I can see where a drastic change in mics could/would affect Aviom stem mixes as well.
I had a festival act that wanted to use the vocalist's Neumann KMS105, and because I use SM86 on that stage it was fairly easy for my monitor tech and was fine for FOH. Might not have been as easy a swap on stages wrung out for SM58s.
Some bands/singers want stupid shit, others just want to use their own mics. Give me the latter folks every time.
She is a very polite young woman and always asks before attempting to get the mic changed (partly my fault as I have always told her to check before unplugging anything in case it's live).
It's been a bit of both, some "preset-and-left" don't change anything situations, but a number of the sound person not being bothered to have to change anything ( and unfortunately for some , a condesending attitude of "you're just a young girl and i know best").
Post by: Luke Geis on March 06, 2018, 01:14:00 AM
1. I didn't even consider the fact that there was likely a hungry soundguy that would provide all my sound needs at a price I could probably afford.
2. I wanted a nice PA that I could use at will without ever having to worry about kludging one together or renting at a cost beyond my means.
I bought my first PA to the tune of about $3000 smackers! This got me two dual 15" mains, two 12" monitors and 2 amplifiers along with DSP for the mains and EQ for the monitors. I got the mixer as a gift for Christmas! The band members each bought their own respective mic needs. If I could have gotten a sound guy to provide sound for all the shows I had done at what many seem to be doing sound for these days, it would have provided me with sound for 20 shows, which incidentally is about the number of shows we played in the two years we were around where we actually needed a PA system. About half to 2/3rds of our shows had venue sound. I could have about broke even and provided someone else with a slight income. As it turns out though, it was a good choice on my part because that PA eventually made my career as a soundguy become possible.
I think most bands simply have a need, but not much money, and buying a cheap PA is the cheapest way to get the basic needs tended to. I am at a point where I don't do charity for bands anymore simply due to the lack of respect, appreciation and amounts of beer and fluids being poured on my stuff. When bands ask how much I cost they either laugh, or go holy hell, maybe when we are actual rockstars we can afford you. I don't want to be that way, but most just don't realize the amount of money and energy I have put into my job. The key word being job. We do this for a living and most simply think that because Henry the Qwik-E-Mart guy does it for $150 on the weekends, why wouldn't We....... Bands just don't realize how that extra $1,000 we spent per speaker makes their show and our lives that much better. They get what they need form a $300 fisher price toy that we cringe about when we hear the name and model.
Then there is the golden ear mentality...... There are a lot of band members who think their idea of the best sound ever is what they think it is. They seem to be able to get that sound from whatever they end up getting because no one could possibly know better. They also do sound for other bands on occasion, so they definitely know everything....... How do you convince someone who has a few bad experiences with others much like them that you are better and worth the cost? Their experience and belief in their abilities keep them from affording a real sound guy, so they buy more stuff as needed. There is always the band member with more experience than the sound guy.
The perspective is the biggest reason. Bands all pretty much start at the bottom with little to nothing. So they start their experience with sound with others that are also at the bottom of the soundguy scale. A few bad experiences later and a trend starts to set in. A need for gear comes along and they, with their golden ear mentality, buy PA gear that will end all their problems. Low and behold it does, because they make it work for them. They don't need us, we are an expense that can't possibly make their lives any better. Until the one day they end up at a gig with a real sound guy and a real PA. That is when you hear the ubiquitous " This is the best sound we ever had "....... It starts to sell them on our craft, but only fuels the fire for them to get better gear, because they still have the golden ear and they can do it themselves........
It isn't until they too have done enough shows for others that they start to realize its not us, it actually is them that cause most of their issues. It is just the attitude we have that determines how a bad situation can be made better, or worse. If we are happy, they become happier even if they are getting a shitty deal. Our attitudes are what sells our craft. Bands love someone who is happy to help no matter what. In the end we are nothing more than problem solvers. Part of our problem solving is how to make bands want to afford us instead of buying more crap that they won't make money off of. We sell good experiences in short. We are also a lot like a tattoo; good ones aren't cheap and cheap ones aren't good.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 06, 2018, 02:23:41 AM
She is a very polite young woman and always asks before attempting to get the mic changed (partly my fault as I have always told her to check before unplugging anything in case it's live).
It's been a bit of both, some "preset-and-left" don't change anything situations, but a number of the sound person not being bothered to have to change anything ( and unfortunately for some , a condesending attitude of "you're just a young girl and i know best").
Send her to one of "my" gigs. We'll treat her with respect. We save the condescension for genuine jerks.
Of the most basic accommodations to a singer, auditioning his/her mic should be the first. If it's duff we can quickly look at other choices and if it's workable we've made a friend. :D
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 06, 2018, 03:10:07 AM
{big ol' snip}
The perspective is the biggest reason. Bands all pretty much start at the bottom with little to nothing. So they start their experience with sound with others that are also at the bottom of the soundguy scale. A few bad experiences later and a trend starts to set in. A need for gear comes along and they, with their golden ear mentality, buy PA gear that will end all their problems. Low and behold it does, because they make it work for them. They don't need us, we are an expense that can't possibly make their lives any better. Until the one day they end up at a gig with a real sound guy and a real PA. That is when you hear the ubiquitous " This is the best sound we ever had "....... It starts to sell them on our craft, but only fuels the fire for them to get better gear, because they still have the golden ear and they can do it themselves........
It isn't until they too have done enough shows for others that they start to realize its not us, it actually is them that cause most of their issues. It is just the attitude we have that determines how a bad situation can be made better, or worse. If we are happy, they become happier even if they are getting a shitty deal. Our attitudes are what sells our craft. Bands love someone who is happy to help no matter what. In the end we are nothing more than problem solvers. Part of our problem solving is how to make bands want to afford us instead of buying more crap that they won't make money off of. We sell good experiences in short. We are also a lot like a tattoo; good ones aren't cheap and cheap ones aren't good.
We're a service business and sometimes that means "serving" clients in ways not in their interests, but at their request nonetheless. FWIW :o
As the SystemGuy I usually mix the first opener. Sometimes they're local/regional that have suffered the "brother in law" or bartender mixes and have resorted to mixing themselves from stage. Feeling the house PA with good wedges in front of them is something they seldom (or never) get. It's kind of nice knowing you gave them some RawkStar Treatment that made their night. You're right that the savvy acts figure out that it's more than gear, and that gear costs money that becomes an infinite expense if it doesn't do what was needed. That's where we sell our craft as that "good experience."
We have the experience to anticipate potential issues, we have work flow and package our gear accordingly, we keep our cables neat & tidy and don't use sketchy AC cords on stage. Oh, and the rig sounds good and they get a better mix, too, and now we've become the problem solvers - with us there, there aren't really problems, at least not with audio.
This attitude scales up. Soon (hopefully) we're in the business of finding ways to say "yes" to client requests, hopefully in ways that add a line item to the invoice and delivers value to the client.
This is the point where most of us end up no longer working directly with bands as they represent limits to business growth. Even if they love you long time, Mixerperson/SoundCo Owner, there is a point at which they can pay no more regardless of the quality of your service or capital equipment investments. Your time and efforts need to return more $$ back to your company, which is probably about to branch out into other kinds of live audio, perhaps hire the first employee. The price has to go up. :(
Post by: Steve M Smith on March 06, 2018, 03:15:34 AM
The guitarist probably had a Squier before learning that better stuff could be better.
He's wrong.
I usually play a fairly expensive Gretsch. Occasionally, I take my cheap Squier Telecaster instead.
I enjoy playing it and the audience can't tell how cheap it is.
Steve.
Post by: Callan Browne on March 06, 2018, 05:19:18 AM
These days I still mix from the stage and the FOH sound is pretty static during the sets, but I try and get out in front at least once a set and have a listen. X32R mixer has helped having a good starting point before we even start sound check.
The gigs we do, there just isn't enough cash to go around to pay a sound guy.
Hopefully we don't stay in this position forever, but it is what it is for now - playing covers in pubs isn't exactly a growth industry.
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Post by: Scott Olewiler on March 06, 2018, 04:02:41 PM
He's wrong.
I usually play a fairly expensive Gretsch. Occasionally, I take my cheap Squier Telecaster instead.
I enjoy playing it and the audience can't tell how cheap it is.
Steve.
The first thing that came to my mind out of the original post was that I can't believe any guitarist is dumb enough to think anyone in the audience can hear the difference between a $4000 guitar or a $600 one. I have been playing for money since 1981 and still have never used a guitar that cost more than $1000.
Now I do understand it makes big difference to the actual player as anyone who has ever played a $600 Epiphone and then picked up a $3000 Les Paul will attest but to the audience, not chance. Sounds the same to them.
Almost every local bar band in my area has top shelf personal gear and the previously mentioned shitty PA and they still can't figure out why a band with a guitarist playingan Epiphone through a Roland Cube sounds so much better than they do. Its like the quality of the PA doesn't even enter their mind.
I was just talking to a band leader the other week telling him how inexpensive digital mixers are these days and he dismissed it out of hand with "I'm done spending any more money on the PA". This is a lead singer who consistantly raves about how good my band thru my PA sounds but he doesn't want to drop $600 to gte his system under control. (wedges with zero processing or EQ)
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 06, 2018, 04:41:21 PM
The Soundcraft Ui are a step in the right direction at lower cost but it seems only techies want to run everything from an iPad (or experienced sound people who can devote their entire attention to the control surface and various layers of menus). There really is a market for a digital something with 6-8 inputs and enough front panel controls that someone familiar with a top box powered mixer or one of these cheap table top things can operate.
Post by: Jay Barracato on March 06, 2018, 05:05:02 PM
Send her to one of "my" gigs. We'll treat her with respect. We save the condescension for genuine jerks.I wonder how many of the lounge level bands have ever seen a professional crew at a festival, where you walk up to the monitor board with your mic, hand it to the tech, who rings it out using a spare channel and the spare wedge at his feet that matches the stage setup, and then saves the eq to be copied to your channel during the changeover.
Of the most basic accommodations to a singer, auditioning his/her mic should be the first. If it's duff we can quickly look at other choices and if it's workable we've made a friend. :D
The only personal mic i can think of that I rejected was a blue condenser for a singing drummer with the bad habit of swinging it behind him directly into a corner on my stage. And I let him do that for a couple of shows before suggesting we could do better.
But don't get me started about those damn harmonizer boxes that I don't get told about prior to splicing them in after we have line checked.
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Post by: Bob Leonard on March 06, 2018, 09:16:11 PM
The first thing that came to my mind out of the original post was that I can't believe any guitarist is dumb enough to think anyone in the audience can hear the difference between a $4000 guitar or a $600 one. I have been playing for money since 1981 and still have never used a guitar that cost more than $1000.
Now I do understand it makes big difference to the actual player as anyone who has ever played a $600 Epiphone and then picked up a $3000 Les Paul will attest but to the audience, not chance. Sounds the same to them.
Almost every local bar band in my area has top shelf personal gear and the previously mentioned shitty PA and they still can't figure out why a band with a guitarist playingan Epiphone through a Roland Cube sounds so much better than they do. Its like the quality of the PA doesn't even enter their mind.
I was just talking to a band leader the other week telling him how inexpensive digital mixers are these days and he dismissed it out of hand with "I'm done spending any more money on the PA". This is a lead singer who consistantly raves about how good my band thru my PA sounds but he doesn't want to drop $600 to gte his system under control. (wedges with zero processing or EQ)
Kids. I bought my first PA when I was 14, and Dad didn't help. It consisted of 1ea. 50 watt Bogan and a pair of University horns, the really big ones (about $125 total). My first real guitar was a 1964 Melody Maker with one pickup ($59 used). Monitors were whatever you could borrow which meant a Fender amp, IF you were lucky, because usually the word monitor was never mentioned. All of this bought by scraping bread dough and shit off of the floor in the local bakery every morning at 5am. We used whatever mics we could, and the big mic of the day was a Shure Unidyne (I think). Today I use whatever I want, buy whatever I want, and my last Gibson, a 1964 ES-345 cost me $5500. The customer or vocalist should be given the mic of their choice if possible, and that's what makes the world go round.
Post by: Steve Mason on March 06, 2018, 11:58:09 PM
Post by: Stu McDoniel on March 08, 2018, 02:19:48 PM
I think it can also be because a lot of musicians only think about themselves. Same reason why I can't get the guitarist to turn down even though he is ruining my mix. He only cares about what he sounds like, not the entire band.I can relate. Its always fun to have to shape the mix "around" the stage volume of guitars.
Half the time putting a mic in front of a guitar amp in a club is useless.
Post by: Lyle Williams on March 09, 2018, 07:04:33 AM
Post by: Keith Broughton on March 09, 2018, 08:09:20 AM
If we don't think the audience can tell the difference between cheap and expensive guitars, why do we argue over cables, DIs, preamps, etc?That, Sir , is a valid question! :)
I have discovered that in a lot of cases, modest gear at a modest price gets the job done and the audience, and client, is happy.
It may have been "better" with more expensive equipment, but , job done and invoice paid.
That's not to say there are not gigs and clients that don't deserve or appreciate the results of top notch equipment and personnel.
In the end, one has to decide the real reason for the equipment purchase, and buy accordingly.
It may be nice for a bar band or DJ to have Meyer speakers but if the Yammys do the job, more money for beers later ;D
Post by: frank kayser on March 09, 2018, 09:40:46 AM
The first thing that came to my mind out of the original post was that I can't believe any guitarist is dumb enough to think anyone in the audience can hear the difference between a $4000 guitar or a $600 one. I have been playing for money since 1981 and still have never used a guitar that cost more than $1000.(topic swerve)
Now I do understand it makes big difference to the actual player as anyone who has ever played a $600 Epiphone and then picked up a $3000 Les Paul will attest but to the audience, not chance. Sounds the same to them.
Almost every local bar band in my area has top shelf personal gear and the previously mentioned shitty PA and they still can't figure out why a band with a guitarist playingan Epiphone through a Roland Cube sounds so much better than they do. Its like the quality of the PA doesn't even enter their mind.
I was just talking to a band leader the other week telling him how inexpensive digital mixers are these days and he dismissed it out of hand with "I'm done spending any more money on the PA". This is a lead singer who consistantly raves about how good my band thru my PA sounds but he doesn't want to drop $600 to gte his system under control. (wedges with zero processing or EQ)
If I may, I believe price point in acoustic guitars is more noticeable to the ear of the audience than an electric guitar. That said, I've heard $4K acoustics sound like clothesline on a wet cardboard box, and sub-$1K guitars sound fantastic. Some electronics are just bad, even in expensive guitars. Many expensive, good sounding acoustics are made to sound bad because the player is EQing the guitar to sound HIS way on the stage and not considering the audience, and his ear is not exactly golden, but he thinks it is.
It also is a matter of touch. I've heard the same Gibson J45 sound entirely different when shared among three different players needing significant EQ changes person to person.
Now, all that pretty much goes out the window when playing an acoustic as part of a larger band, especially once they put that rubber feedback buster in the sound hole. Then price and quality of the guitar becomes immaterial.
Other than that (not so) slight modification to your original statement Scott, I believe you're spot on.
We return you to the original topic, already in progress.
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 09, 2018, 12:42:12 PM
I think the player makes more difference than the instrument.
Also, a large reason for having better quality stuff, from a provider standpoint, is reliability.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 09, 2018, 01:29:55 PM
It's nice to play an instrument you really, really like and if that's the 5-figure Paul Reed Smith or vintage Gibson or Fender, that's the players choice. I'd probably not want to use a valuable instrument in a bar where patrons get on the stage or "security" is the bus boy standing by the door when he's not cleaning up... but if a player wants to use his/her pricey heirlooms on stage, it's up to them.
This goes back to my original post - musicians spend their money on their own instruments - the thing that makes them happy they play whatever instrument. If they "played" the PA they would have a different take on it, I think.
Post by: Scott Olewiler on March 09, 2018, 02:48:18 PM
(topic swerve)
If I may, I believe price point in acoustic guitars is more noticeable to the ear of the audience than an electric guitar. That said, I've heard $4K acoustics sound like clothesline on a wet cardboard box, and sub-$1K guitars sound fantastic. Some electronics are just bad, even in expensive guitars. Many expensive, good sounding acoustics are made to sound bad because the player is EQing the guitar to sound HIS way on the stage and not considering the audience, and his ear is not exactly golden, but he thinks it is.
It also is a matter of touch. I've heard the same Gibson J45 sound entirely different when shared among three different players needing significant EQ changes person to person.
Now, all that pretty much goes out the window when playing an acoustic as part of a larger band, especially once they put that rubber feedback buster in the sound hole. Then price and quality of the guitar becomes immaterial.
Other than that (not so) slight modification to your original statement Scott, I believe you're spot on.
We return you to the original topic, already in progress.
I probably should have qualified that statement with regards to the quality of the sound system and the guitar amp itself as well. As everything in the chain is upgraded, I certainly believe the quality or lack of quality in the guitar itself does become more noticeable. I just think at the bar band level, given the the level of sound gear usually being used, even with house sound provided; a "not cheap" guitar is usually enough sound wise.
Playability and how that factors into how good the show ends up being is another issue. Lower quality guitar are definitely more work to play. So maybe the guitar playing itself sounds better on the more expensive guitar; because it just is.
Post by: Luke Geis on March 09, 2018, 03:52:02 PM
Case in point. I have a 1990's era Fender Squire II. At the time this was about the cheapest guitar they made. The body is made out of plywood and not the good 13 ply stuff. I am talking the down and dirty 8 ply crap! The neck however must be the best neck Fender has ever made. It is as straight as an arrow and I can get the action set to about .75mm ( rather freaking low ) with zero neck relief. The guitar sound amazing and it performs markedly better than many of my other guitars that cost significantly more than this guitars $90 price tag!!!! So while it is low on the list of quality it performs at a much better standard. I am proud to sling that guitar around my neck.
So we kinda come full swing to what makes bands buy their own gear. It comes down to need and overall cost. If we were cheaper, we could fill that void, but our time costs money and we use ( typically ) better gear which costs more money. We are an expense until we get to the higher echelon, in which then we become a necessity.
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 09, 2018, 05:28:27 PM
If we don't think the audience can tell the difference between cheap and expensive guitars, why do we argue over cables, DIs, preamps, etc?
The audience probably doesn't know the difference between cheap and expensive cables, DIs, preamps, etc. in terms of sound quality.
But the people running the show -- the performers, the sound folks, maybe the people writing the checks -- know the difference, in terms of reliability and usability.
An experienced, talented professional can "make do" with mediocre gear, making it shine while cursing it the whole time. On the other hand, excellent gear can be a joy to use. It doesn't matter whether you're a performer, an FOH engineer, a photographer, a chef, a carpenter: whatever your profession is, an expert CAN get good results from poor tools, but they will get BETTER results faster and cheaper with good tools.
Post by: Mike Caldwell on March 09, 2018, 07:45:46 PM
(topic swerve)
If I may, I believe price point in acoustic guitars is more noticeable to the ear of the audience than an electric guitar. That said, I've heard $4K acoustics sound like clothesline on a wet cardboard box, and sub-$1K guitars sound fantastic. Some electronics are just bad, even in expensive guitars. Many expensive, good sounding acoustics are made to sound bad because the player is EQing the guitar to sound HIS way on the stage and not considering the audience, and his ear is not exactly golden, but he thinks it is.
It also is a matter of touch. I've heard the same Gibson J45 sound entirely different when shared among three different players needing significant EQ changes person to person.
Now, all that pretty much goes out the window when playing an acoustic as part of a larger band, especially once they put that rubber feedback buster in the sound hole. Then price and quality of the guitar becomes immaterial.
Other than that (not so) slight modification to your original statement Scott, I believe you're spot on.
We return you to the original topic, already in progress.
I had a lead singer/guitar player with a small band take a very expensive Gibson acoustic/electric guitar run it through not one but three different LR Baggs pre amps all in a series and all on at the same time, on top of being really noisy it sounded like total ass.
As for the rubber feedback buster, I'll take the sound of one of those over fighting the howling feedback from the acoustic player who wants the acoustic in the monitors at hair parting levels.
Post by: frank kayser on March 09, 2018, 08:56:04 PM
Most players don't know how to work a single LR Baggs Paracoustic. And they have hot output. Three in series? Probably the first overloaded the input of the second, etc. I'm sure you are being extremely kind saying that it sounded like total ass. I'm sure it was much worse than that. I'd ask what that person was thinking, but that assumes facts not in evidence.
I had a lead singer/guitar player with a small band take a very expensive Gibson acoustic/electric guitar run it through not one but three different LR Baggs pre amps all in a series and all on at the same time, on top of being really noisy it sounded like total ass.
Quote
As for the rubber feedback buster, I'll take the sound of one of those over fighting the howling feedback from the acoustic player who wants the acoustic in the monitors at hair parting levels.Well, there is that...
Post by: Mike Caldwell on March 09, 2018, 09:11:55 PM
Most players don't know how to work a single LR Baggs Paracoustic. And they have hot output. Three in series? Probably the first overloaded the input of the second, etc. I'm sure you are being extremely kind saying that it sounded like total ass. I'm sure it was much worse than that. I'd ask what that person was thinking, but that assumes facts not in evidence.
Well, there is that...
The real shame of it was that he was a good player, the band was tight and they had a great set list.
Post by: Ned Ward on March 11, 2018, 07:56:57 PM
So I became the band member with the PA after it, and it meant I'd care about our sound. And slowly over the past years it's been a slow investment. Guitars and amps are what I'd rather spend money on, but now that I have what I need, willing to improve our bar gig PA slightly every year.