ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Bob Leonard on November 13, 2013, 11:28:09 PM
-
From the looks of Sweetwaters pricing it would appear Soundcraft has thrown down the gauntlet in time for xmas. Check the price of the Expression 1 @ just under 2K.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SiEXP32 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SiEXP32)
-
From the looks of Sweetwaters pricing it would appear Soundcraft has thrown down the gauntlet in time for xmas. Check the price of the Expression 1 @ just under 2K.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SiEXP32 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SiEXP32)
Interesting !
Should i wait or it is time to buy one.
-
From the looks of Sweetwaters pricing it would appear Soundcraft has thrown down the gauntlet in time for xmas. Check the price of the Expression 1 @ just under 2K.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SiEXP32 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SiEXP32)
I think it is being driven by the success of the x32 console. There have been a lot that I've talked with that have went to the x32. I currently use Soundcraft and very happy with it but x32 is getting more love in this area.
-
Price drops are Soundcraft's MO these days :) They obviously are not keeping much leash on their dealers either, considering the prices we've seen.
-
That's a nice looking little mixer. Presonus must be shitting bricks right about now.
-
Especially if their stuff is expensive to make!
-
That's a nice looking little mixer. Presonus must be shitting bricks right about now.
JC...
I think not any more than any other people in the game. The StudioLive units are a different animal and those buying it are doing so because the feature set suits their needs more than another unit with more "bells and whistles".
Presonus has some features unique to their consoles, so you might as well make it a two way street and say, "Gee. Soundcraft et al must be crapping masonry because....".
I have analog consoles (Midas/A&H), a Presonus and a Qu-16. They'll all see use depending
on the need. If I had to pick just one console for my use it'd be a GLD or a Soundcraft, but I'm too old and lazy to lug all that gear around.
I'd rather sit at home and snipe at other, younger sound folk on the computer...
-
I agree Dick, every piece has a part. Like the QU-16, the Soundcraft boards are a very different animal than the SL line of boards. Soundcraft has never published or claimed their desks were an answer for recording, and those features exist only if an option card is used. So being what it is there seems to be a large number of people who have made this their number one reason for owning the SL boards. To me it's a non feature. I have a recording system running Cubase, and that's more than I need for demos and one time recordings.
My ultimate goal was not recording, and I don't think yours is either, hence our choices in the boards we own. I do wish you had bought the Expression though, because then we could be the ultimate board buddies. Regardless, Harmon has pockets as deep as anyone and it looks like they're on a roll. For that I thank Behringer.
-
I agree totally with the last two posts. I have to say, the Soundcraft Expression 1 is one hell of a deal compared to anything out there!
-
I think it is being driven by the success of the x32 console. There have been a lot that I've talked with that have went to the x32. I currently use Soundcraft and very happy with it but x32 is getting more love in this area.
I wouldn't exactly call dragging down the price with a low cost mixer a success story to be proud of. That's about the only thing it has going for it. IMO. The price drops from Soundcraft are largely due to the other guys bringing the market down to the gutter and the uninformed jumping on price only.
-
I wouldn't exactly call dragging down the price with a low cost mixer a success story to be proud of. That's about the only thing it has going for it. IMO. The price drops from Soundcraft are largely due to the other guys bringing the market down to the gutter and the uninformed jumping on price only.
There are a number of ways to view this I guess. For me i needed a total digital solution....digital snake, full iPad control, multitrack recording/playback, moving faders, 32 channels, matrices, scribble strips
( I am of bad vision in a particular way. I can't read in low light at all, have overall blurry vision, but for some reason could always read a Blackberry screen text without a problem.) the X32 was all there was in my price range 10-11 months ago. It works logically for me and I can easily see what I need. I don't really think investing millions of dollars in multiple countries should be frowned upon on universally.
-
I wouldn't exactly call dragging down the price with a low cost mixer a success story to be proud of. That's about the only thing it has going for it. IMO. The price drops from Soundcraft are largely due to the other guys bringing the market down to the gutter and the uninformed jumping on price only.
You can count me as one of your so called "uninformed". It wasn't just price that opened my wallet for an X32 Rack either. Neither the Expression Si, nor the Qu-16 had as many attractive features or nearly as many people using them in anger in the field. The SL wasn't even close.
I think it is disingenuous to make statements that imply that only someone ignorant of some secrete sauce in other digital mixers would ever fall victim to the purchase of an X32 product.
Don't get me wrong, I think that the Expression Si is a great mixer..... if you have no need or desire for multi-track recording. The Qu-16 is also a great digital mixer (this would have been my 2nd choice, but the lack of remote app support and a few other options edged it out of the running). While you may not personally place the X32 series in the same league with these esteemed mixers, you are in a VERY small minority. The vast majority of consumers do, and so do Soundcraft, A&H, and Presonus. Thus the price drops.
@Justice,
That's a nice looking little mixer. Presonus must be shitting bricks right about now.I think that both the Expression Si and the Qu-16 were directly targeted at the StudioLive mixers. There are very few reasons I can think of that anyone purchasing a new digital mixer would pick the StudioLive mixer over either of these better options. The two high points of the SL line is the high visibility large segment count full meter bridge (unmatched by its competitors), and the very very good remote app.
The X32 on the other hand doesn't even try to look or feel like an analog desk. That definitely puts it out of the running for a segment of the market that are never going to want to mix on something so completely different than their venerable analog mixer.
The StudioLive did this well. Qu-16 and Expression Si do it much better IMHO.
-
I think casting aspersions upon any of the mixers mentioned is just a bit short sighted. The computer has revolutionized the way we do business, the way we live, and to a great extent the way we think.
Every one of these boards is an extension of the computer, a computer programmed to respond to our needs and surrounded by mechanical devices allowing for human interface. Some computers are built with care, and others not so much. Some boards use very solid and reliable mechanical devices, some not so solid and reliable. But they all work..... at least for a while.
Any of the boards mentioned above will get the job done, and every board mentioned above fills a need. The X32 didn't really lower the cost of goods, it made the rest of the world a bit more honest.
The Expression may use the same components as it's bigger brothers, same chips, same construction, same company. The reason it costs less is because the Expression, unlike it's bigger brothers, is assembled in CHINA, and that's why it costs less. The X32 has a ton of features, but that's Uli's way. Build something and put so many bells and whistles on it that the product can't be ignored. Good for Uli, but software is only as good as the platform it runs on, and to that we need to tip our collective hats to Uli as it appears he's hit a home run with this one.
I don't really understand why Presonus brought out their second edition boards without motorized faders and recallable head amps. It just makes no sense in that they have improved the product by basically adding more software. And the QU-16, as great a board as it's bound to be can't be expanded past 16 channels, another mystery. The world will is smaller than most people think, and just like the laptop, desktop and other computers entry level boards will soon abound each with their own claim to fame and following. Good luck to us all.
-
Call this hopeful speculation, but I feel that A&H might release a QU-24 and a QU-32, it makes no sense stopping at 16 channels.
One thing I wish Soundcraft would do for the Si Expression/Compact/Performer is to have an offline editor, I guess that's what's keeping me from the Si Expression 3 (I like my faders), somehow I dislike the small touchscreen. For Si Expression, I also would like scribble strips but tape labels would be on the console anyway...
-
somehow I dislike the small touchscreen. For Si Expression,
The Expression does not need a large touchscreen. Unlike many digital boards, all the controls and info needed to mix are laid out in front of you, similiar to an analog board. The screen is used only for set up and it plenty large enough for that.
-
The Expression does not need a large touchscreen. Unlike many digital boards, all the controls and info needed to mix are laid out in front of you, similiar to an analog board. The screen is used only for set up and it plenty large enough for that.
I did have one visiting sound tech that used my soundcraft to run his band get upset because the eq display did not stay up showing a graphical display of his changes. As you make adjustments it shows on screen then goes away. States on x32 it gives you a visual display. I stated the frequency's are written right on faders what is the issue. How did you manage on analog board. Lol. ::)
-
I did have one visiting sound tech that used my soundcraft to run his band get upset because the eq display did not stay up showing a graphical display of his changes. As you make adjustments it shows on screen then goes away. States on x32 it gives you a visual display. I stated the frequency's are written right on faders what is the issue. How did you manage on analog board. Lol. ::)
Yeah, how long does he need to stare at an eq change once made? I listen to changes with my ears rather than my eyes.
-
I think casting aspersions upon any of the mixers mentioned is just a bit short sighted.
Me, too.
The internet is full of comments from people who haven't used an X32 telling us how terrible it is based on the fact that it has Behringer written on it.
If it had a Midas label instead there would be no end of comments from people who haven't used it telling us how great it is!
Steve.
-
I've used a few X32's. Everyone had a problem. They were pretty terrible to me.
Well I look at it this way:
Berhinger has never been known for it's "quality". Sure it's a little better than years past. But with the X32 you get:
Berhinger EQ's
Berhinger Comp's
Berhinger Gate etc. etc. etc.
Not exactly what I would call high quality. There might be a little collaboration with Midas but I believe the only Midas feature is the mic pre's.
Soundcraft you get:
Bss Eq's
dbx Comp's
dbx Gates
Lexicon Effects
HHHMM. Some of the leaders in the business known for their quality.
-
It looks like the PEQ on the Expressions for the Low and High bands is shelving only. That is, you cannot set it to bell-shaped for those frequency bands. Is that correct?
If that is true, has anyone found that to be a significant limitation?
-
I did have one visiting sound tech that used my soundcraft to run his band get upset because the eq display did not stay up showing a graphical display of his changes. As you make adjustments it shows on screen then goes away. States on x32 it gives you a visual display. I stated the frequency's are written right on faders what is the issue. How did you manage on analog board. Lol. ::)
If you just push the "EQ' button on menu screen the graph stays on top all the time.
-
I've used a few X32's. Everyone had a problem. They were pretty terrible to me.
Well I look at it this way:
Berhinger has never been known for it's "quality". Sure it's a little better than years past. But with the X32 you get:
Berhinger EQ's
Berhinger Comp's
Berhinger Gate etc. etc. etc.
Not exactly what I would call high quality. There might be a little collaboration with Midas but I believe the only Midas feature is the mic pre's.
Soundcraft you get:
Bss Eq's
dbx Comp's
dbx Gates
Lexicon Effects
HHHMM. Some of the leaders in the business known for their quality.
In the Soundcraft you get emulations of those processors. I am sure they are great.Same with the X32. And it's graphics I am sure are KT emulations...not exactly slouches in the graphic eq world.
I have used tons of analog boards and processors over the last 40 years, and I don't have any problem getting the X32 to give me a satisfactory result. And I believe the FX in the X32 are really cool because they are not just one companies emulation. I love Lexicon reverbs for some things but not all. I much prefer other companies delays to Lexicon for my mixing styles. I think for most of us it IS feature driven. I NEED DCA's to do my thing. Can't do that on a Presonus.
Can't do a proper iPad mix in my setup without DCA's or some others.
I am sure all these boards can make fine mixes. We all choose what we like best. We don't all drive black Model T's either.
-
It looks like the PEQ on the Expressions for the Low and High bands is shelving only. That is, you cannot set it to bell-shaped for those frequency bands. Is that correct?
If that is true, has anyone found that to be a significant limitation?
I believe they're shelving only. For what it's worth, the outer two PEQ bands on the console I normally work with (GLD) can do peaks, HPF/LPF or shelving and I prefer shelving.
-
It looks like the PEQ on the Expressions for the Low and High bands is shelving only. That is, you cannot set it to bell-shaped for those frequency bands. Is that correct?
If that is true, has anyone found that to be a significant limitation?
Gordon,
I'm pretty well known for my need to have the best sound possible, regardless of board. My step into digital was taken from an APB Pro House, boards known very well for their "tone" if you will.
When comparing boards over the past couple of years I took anything that couldn't compare with the APB off of my list, end of subject, if it doesn't sound as good then why bother. My short list left me with choices in the $10,000 region. I would gladly pay that sum had digital been a choice earlier in life, but at this point as I wind down 10K didn't make much sense so I decided to wait for the next round of digital releases. That would bring the X32 and the Expression.
Those of us who have been around for a long while usually don't care much about the number of knobs the channel EQ has to offer as long as the EQ does it's job. There is no significant advantage to having a swept upper and lower channel EQ, as long as the EQ is designed properly to begin with. It becomes even less significant when the channel strip is also equipped with an active low pass filter. To me the critical range of the EQ is the upper and lower MID sections. This is where 90% of your adjustment will be made, this is where you'll control feedback, the thump of the kick, tone of a B3, etc..
Soundcraft has used the same channel strip EQ on most of their desks, regardless of price, since the intro of the S1 in 1975. It is by far one of the most effective designs I have ever worked with and one of the very reasons the Soundcraft boards are some of the best sounding boards available today.
People constantly state that board XYZ is a better board because it has the feature of upper and lower swept EQ. To me that would illustrate a lack of real world experience. Once you've used a Soundcraft channel strip EQ you'll understand just how unimportant those additional two knobs can be, at least if the EQ is, as I said above, designed correctly, and Soundcraft has had over 40 years time to get it right.
Also as stated above, the EQ graph is fully visible from the setup screen by pushing the mystery button on the screen, which Soundcraft has cleverly disguised by calling it "EQ".
And if the channel EQ isn't enough there are additional EQ's for every channel and output designed by BSS.
Have fun, don't drink and drive, wear a condom.
-
In the Soundcraft you get emulations of those processors. I am sure they are great.Same with the X32. And it's graphics I am sure are KT emulations...not exactly slouches in the graphic eq world.
I have used tons of analog boards and processors over the last 40 years, and I don't have any problem getting the X32 to give me a satisfactory result. And I believe the FX in the X32 are really cool because they are not just one companies emulation. I love Lexicon reverbs for some things but not all. I much prefer other companies delays to Lexicon for my mixing styles. I think for most of us it IS feature driven. I NEED DCA's to do my thing. Can't do that on a Presonus.
Can't do a proper iPad mix in my setup without DCA's or some others.
I am sure all these boards can make fine mixes. We all choose what we like best. We don't all drive black Model T's either.
We provide sound and lights for a local small venue. A band came in one day and insisted that they use their X32. The ONLY thing that changed was the mixer. Even the club owner came over and said, "What happened to the sound?" We did all we could to mix the sound better to no avail. We never could achieve the sound quality we had with the other mixer. Although it would have been a bit easier if the meters were working properly. The band said they were bad right out of the box.
-
In the Soundcraft you get emulations of those processors. I am sure they are great.Same with the X32. And it's graphics I am sure are KT emulations...not exactly slouches in the graphic eq world.
I have used tons of analog boards and processors over the last 40 years, and I don't have any problem getting the X32 to give me a satisfactory result. And I believe the FX in the X32 are really cool because they are not just one companies emulation. I love Lexicon reverbs for some things but not all. I much prefer other companies delays to Lexicon for my mixing styles. I think for most of us it IS feature driven. I NEED DCA's to do my thing. Can't do that on a Presonus.
Can't do a proper iPad mix in my setup without DCA's or some others.
I am sure all these boards can make fine mixes. We all choose what we like best. We don't all drive black Model T's either.
Sorry John, but the Soundcraft boards all use the same chip set up to the Vi. There is no emulation. The X32 has channel strips, etc. that Midas assisted in designing, they are not Midas channel strips. Regardless though, there's no need to split hairs.
-
We provide sound and lights for a local small venue. A band came in one day and insisted that they use their X32. The ONLY thing that changed was the mixer. Even the club owner came over and said, "What happened to the sound?" We did all we could to mix the sound better to no avail. We never could achieve the sound quality we had with the other mixer. Although it would have been a bit easier if the meters were working properly. The band said they were bad right out of the box.
There are an awful lot of things "hidden" inside digital consoles which can color or compromise the output. Best practice would be to start from scratch each venue, but it would seem likely that they had either the previous gig settings going on or an aggregation of various settings/fixes clogging things up.
I helped a friend set up a "loaner" X32 for a theater gig, his desk having been sent back in for replacement as it was BOB. I took my StudioLive with the "baby SMAART" so we could check the outputs of the various zoned speakers and tweak them.
The loaner had so many things screwed this way and that that there were huge holes in the sound. Bypassing the X32 entirely removed all the anomalies. Re-initializing the desk took care of the problems.
Lesson:
Zero out that thing before you put it into use on a new system.
-
I've used a few X32's. Everyone had a problem. They were pretty terrible to me.
Well I look at it this way:
Berhinger has never been known for it's "quality". Sure it's a little better than years past. But with the X32 you get:
Berhinger EQ's
Berhinger Comp's
Berhinger Gate etc. etc. etc.
Not exactly what I would call high quality. There might be a little collaboration with Midas but I believe the only Midas feature is the mic pre's.
Soundcraft you get:
Bss Eq's
dbx Comp's
dbx Gates
Lexicon Effects
HHHMM. Some of the leaders in the business known for their quality.
I'd submit that with the X32 you get
Klark Teknik gates
Klark Teknik compressors
Klark Teknik DN-405 parametric EQ
EFX that sound pretty good (the reverbs and delays that I've used so far).
Jamin, I *really* wanted to hate this mixer. I wanted it to be the big stinking pile of dog doo that some other Behringer products have proven to be.
At this point, it's not.
Over at Soundforums.net there is an 8000 post thread of the X32 (ironically started by Rob Spence, who hasn't bought an X32). Most of the issues and problems early in the thread were dealt with quickly and publicly by the manufacturer. The lingering question of ESD, the S16 remote box and X32 has been answered by Brian Wynn and it's back in Behry's lap to deal with the long term part of it. In the mean time using the specified cable with Ethercon shells seems to be the solution.
As for the progression of this thread since I start this reply, I can also say that I've heard DiGiCo SD7, Avid Venue and X32 all directly driving our systems (no intervening mixer or processing) and have heard nothing in the 'sound' of the X32 that was wrong. Again, I wanted to find something bad to laugh about, but couldn't. I even posted one of my FOH Du Jour threads about it (pic of the DiGiCo, X32 and Venue in the FOH pit). Not a damn thing wrong with the audio from the X32. I see them more and more driving band IEM rigs that used to have LS9-32 or SC48. If it sucked, out of the box, the way you indicate, the LS9s would be back. They aren't.
-
I'd submit that with the X32 you get
Klark Teknik gates
Klark Teknik compressors
Klark Teknik DN-405 parametric EQ
EFX that sound pretty good (the reverbs and delays that I've used so far).
Jamin, I *really* wanted to hate this mixer. I wanted it to be the big stinking pile of dog doo that some other Behringer products have proven to be.
At this point, it's not.
Over at Soundforums.net there is an 8000 post thread of the X32 (ironically started by Rob Spence, who hasn't bought an X32). Most of the issues and problems early in the thread were dealt with quickly and publicly by the manufacturer. The lingering question of ESD, the S16 remote box and X32 has been answered by Brian Wynn and it's back in Behry's lap to deal with the long term part of it. In the mean time using the specified cable with Ethercon shells seems to be the solution.
As for the progression of this thread since I start this reply, I can also say that I've heard DiGiCo SD7, Avid Venue and X32 all directly driving our systems (no intervening mixer or processing) and have heard nothing in the 'sound' of the X32 that was wrong. Again, I wanted to find something bad to laugh about, but couldn't. I even posted one of my FOH Du Jour threads about it (pic of the DiGiCo, X32 and Venue in the FOH pit). Not a damn thing wrong with the audio from the X32. I see them more and more driving band IEM rigs that used to have LS9-32 or SC48. If it sucked, out of the box, the way you indicate, the LS9s would be back. They aren't.
According to their website it says the mic pre's are "genuine Midas". But it only says everything else was "developed in partnership with KT for the Berhinger X32." Nowhere does it say they are KT.
At least Soundcraft says they are if fact dbx, BSS, Lexicon ect.
I make purchases based on my own personal experiences. Not what I read on a review. So far all my experiences with the X32 have been not good.
-
It looks like the PEQ on the Expressions for the Low and High bands is shelving only. That is, you cannot set it to bell-shaped for those frequency bands. Is that correct?
If that is true, has anyone found that to be a significant limitation?
Lately I have been working on the SI and yes the high and low EQ are shelving with frequency adjustment. It has not been a problem at all because you have a separate adjustable low cut. I am very quickly able to ring out a mic using just the CH EQ and have it sound good. Certainly plenty for a band. IF I need more EQ then every mix buss has another set of the same EQ as the CH strip along with a 30 band graphic. For a difficult corporate gig I could see burning a mix buss to get the extra EQ if needed.
-
As befitting any Soundcraft digital mixer, Si Expression boards give you extensive facilities and legendary audio quality, courtesy of the cutting-edge EMMA DSP processor - the same DSP platform that has helped rocket previous Soundcraft Si series consoles to stardom. With prodigious processing power, bulletproof reliability, impressive flexibility, amazing ease of use, and a surprisingly friendly price tag, Si Expression mixers are an outstanding value. Exactly what you'd expect from Soundcraft.
-
According to their website it says the mic pre's are "genuine Midas". But it only says everything else was "developed in partnership with KT for the Berhinger X32." Nowhere does it say they are KT.
At least Soundcraft says they are if fact dbx, BSS, Lexicon ect.
I make purchases based on my own personal experiences. Not what I read on a review. So far all my experiences with the X32 have been not good.
I'd submit that the amount of original Lexicon code inside an Si series mixer is about the same as original KT design in the X32. How much analog BSS gate/comp got stuffed inside? About the same as KT's *analog* got put in the X32. It's all marketing; I'd guess that the amount of either brand's flagship designs inserted into the value products is minimal.
As a dealer for the brand you espouse a preference for, I'd expect you to like the Soundcraft. I'd be surprised if you didn't.
I have a neutral opinion of the Si/Expression series as I've only mixed on them a couple of times. My boss is FOH mixerperson for a national/international act and absolutely HATES them. But he likes the Studio Live for doing weekend bands when he's not out, so go figure. He could have any desk in our shop and he picked (and bought) an SL24 for himself.
I don't know why you hear things other don't, and like JR, I'm not about to tell you what you think you hear. I will say, however, that unless you set a desk up from scratch (freshly loaded with firmware) you can be in the position that Dick Rees describes and never know the problem is inside the desk, a result of another person's tomfoolery.
I've heard multiple X32s on our rigs, right between other higher priced and well regarded mixers and didn't hear anything that make me go "yeah, this thing sucks, hehehehehe." And like I said, I *Really* wanted it to suck.
-
As befitting any Soundcraft digital mixer, Si Expression boards give you extensive facilities and legendary audio quality, courtesy of the cutting-edge EMMA DSP processor - the same DSP platform that has helped rocket previous Soundcraft Si series consoles to stardom. With prodigious processing power, bulletproof reliability, impressive flexibility, amazing ease of use, and a surprisingly friendly price tag, Si Expression mixers are an outstanding value. Exactly what you'd expect from Soundcraft.
Thank you for the stunning piece of marketing spew.
-
As befitting any Soundcraft digital mixer, Si Expression boards give you extensive facilities and legendary audio quality, courtesy of the cutting-edge EMMA DSP processor - the same DSP platform that has helped rocket previous Soundcraft Si series consoles to stardom. With prodigious processing power, bulletproof reliability, impressive flexibility, amazing ease of use, and a surprisingly friendly price tag, Si Expression mixers are an outstanding value. Exactly what you'd expect from Soundcraft.
Seriously?
Shouldn't you have put quote marks around that?
Mac
-
The X32, Experssion Si, and Qu-16 are all very good digital mixers. If you can't make them sound good, it isn't the mixer. It is you.
I have on one rig my X32 Rack. The other is my MixWiz, Presonus ACP88, and TC Electronics M-OneXL (I have also had the Lexicon MPX550 and borrowed a friends PCM96).
With a simple raw pass through, both mixers sound great (so much for the hype about preamps).
The compressors on the X32 are by far better than the ACP88's, and the verbs and delays in the X32 are better than my M-OneXL with the verbs being on-par with the PCM96 to my ears.
I have played with both the Expression Si and Qu-16, but only in the store. Both of these units also have very good internal efx and channel processing.
I also agree with Bob that you can't get too carried away with feature XYZ with respect to sound quality. Is it really that important to have a fully parametric channel eq? I seem to recall quite a few great sounding gigs with my MixWiz with only 2 sweepable mids per channel at my disposal ;)
I would also like to re-itterate what Dick said and also expand on this point. The X32 is by far the most configurable mixer of this bunch; however, this comes at a price.
The X32 is also the easiest mixer of this bunch to get hosed up due to poor routing and poor settings.
There is something to be said about having your mixer be more difficult to get wrong. This is especially true if you are doing this for a living and are constantly configuring and re-configuring your mixer for different situations.
To the original subject, I think it is a great thing that we are able to get such great digital mixers for such a low price.
For years I have longed for the capabilities and sound quality I have heard bands that are using an LS9 had .... but alas, the price would have been enough to send me and my family on a very nice vacation .... and my band is simply a hobby, not a money maker at all.
Thanks to the likes of early mixers like the StudioLive and now the X32, Qu-16 and Expression Si, almost anyone can afford to have this level of sound quality and features.
I think it is a good time to be in the market for a digital mixer.
-
I think it is not really useful to anyone shopping for a mixer to talk about how we can "let" a digital mixer be too hard to use. I would assume that if I was going to buy a mixer, I would learn how to use it. Good lord.....it's not like anyone's intellect is too limited to figure out how to make use of a full 4 band parametric or DCA's. As I have told many people...the big time professional boards have more features not less. If you can get more for the same money how is that bad... Or worse yet, worth discouraging.
-
I'd submit that the amount of original Lexicon code inside an Si series mixer is about the same as original KT design in the X32. How much analog BSS gate/comp got stuffed inside? About the same as KT's *analog* got put in the X32. It's all marketing; I'd guess that the amount of either brand's flagship designs inserted into the value products is minimal.
As a dealer for the brand you espouse a preference for, I'd expect you to like the Soundcraft. I'd be surprised if you didn't.
I have a neutral opinion of the Si/Expression series as I've only mixed on them a couple of times. My boss is FOH mixerperson for a national/international act and absolutely HATES them. But he likes the Studio Live for doing weekend bands when he's not out, so go figure. He could have any desk in our shop and he picked (and bought) an SL24 for himself.
I don't know why you hear things other don't, and like JR, I'm not about to tell you what you think you hear. I will say, however, that unless you set a desk up from scratch (freshly loaded with firmware) you can be in the position that Dick Rees describes and never know the problem is inside the desk, a result of another person's tomfoolery.
I've heard multiple X32s on our rigs, right between other higher priced and well regarded mixers and didn't hear anything that make me go "yeah, this thing sucks, hehehehehe." And like I said, I *Really* wanted it to suck.
Sorry, I'm still not convinced.
-
Sorry, I'm still not convinced.
Come to one of my shows.
-
I think it is not really useful to anyone shopping for a mixer to talk about how we can "let" a digital mixer be too hard to use. I would assume that if I was going to buy a mixer, I would learn how to use it. Good lord.....it's not like anyone's intellect is too limited to figure out how to make use of a full 4 band parametric or DCA's. As I have told many people...the big time professional boards have more features not less. If you can get more for the same money how is that bad... Or worse yet, worth discouraging.
I tend to agree with you, but then I like new things and love learning new and better ways of doing things.
For those who are less comfortable learning new things, the "DigiLog" desks might be more attractive despite having fewer features and less flexibility.
Still, I find it hard to see how anyone could be upset about Soundcraft dropping its price even if it is due to the X32 competition.
-
Come to one of my shows.
Hey, that's a good idea.
We ought to have an independent, unbiased PSW person go around to various shows from as many LAB Loungers as feasible and report back. ;D
Putting all the other stuff aside. Now since most of these consoles are relatively the same price, it all comes down to personal preference. I like what I bought, you like what you bought.
-
Hey, that's a good idea.
We ought to have an independent, unbiased PSW person go around to various shows from as many LAB Loungers as feasible and report back. ;D
I need a part time job...)
-
I need a part time job...)
I know what you look like, and I'm alerting security... ;)
-
I just bought a new cattle prod.
-
I just bought a new cattle prod.
So did I, I got the Bossietaser2000, what did you get?
-
Gordon,
I'm pretty well known for my need to have the best sound possible, regardless of board. My step into digital was taken from an APB Pro House, boards known very well for their "tone" if you will.
When comparing boards over the past couple of years I took anything that couldn't compare with the APB off of my list, end of subject, if it doesn't sound as good then why bother. My short list left me with choices in the $10,000 region. I would gladly pay that sum had digital been a choice earlier in life, but at this point as I wind down 10K didn't make much sense so I decided to wait for the next round of digital releases. That would bring the X32 and the Expression.
Those of us who have been around for a long while usually don't care much about the number of knobs the channel EQ has to offer as long as the EQ does it's job. There is no significant advantage to having a swept upper and lower channel EQ, as long as the EQ is designed properly to begin with. It becomes even less significant when the channel strip is also equipped with an active low pass filter. To me the critical range of the EQ is the upper and lower MID sections. This is where 90% of your adjustment will be made, this is where you'll control feedback, the thump of the kick, tone of a B3, etc..
Soundcraft has used the same channel strip EQ on most of their desks, regardless of price, since the intro of the S1 in 1975. It is by far one of the most effective designs I have ever worked with and one of the very reasons the Soundcraft boards are some of the best sounding boards available today.
People constantly state that board XYZ is a better board because it has the feature of upper and lower swept EQ. To me that would illustrate a lack of real world experience. Once you've used a Soundcraft channel strip EQ you'll understand just how unimportant those additional two knobs can be, at least if the EQ is, as I said above, designed correctly, and Soundcraft has had over 40 years time to get it right.
Also as stated above, the EQ graph is fully visible from the setup screen by pushing the mystery button on the screen, which Soundcraft has cleverly disguised by calling it "EQ".
And if the channel EQ isn't enough there are additional EQ's for every channel and output designed by BSS.
Have fun, don't drink and drive, wear a condom.
Bob, sorry I meant he actually wanted the picture of the actual eq sliders to stay on screen. When adjustment is made it shows a simulated pic of eq sliders and goes off after adjustment but does show the eq graph. Not good enough he needed to see the eq sliders on screen as the x32 has. ::) sorry I could have explained better. Thanks
-
No need to apologize Bob, I'm just being a smart ass.
John, I bought the Ronco "Super nut exploder 3200" cattle prod with selectable stun settings and 8" 100,000 volt arc. Good for anything from small child to wooly mammoth.
-
You guys are crazy. The best cattle prod on the market is the Prodomatic 3000.
Steve,