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Title: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Goerge Thomas on January 15, 2013, 01:07:31 PM
Just a small rant for a moment ladies and gents.

I am in grad school as a younger fellow in Ohio and tend to go to all the shows I can when I am free from work as a weekend warrior and school. This means dubstep and  general electronic music and rap and hip hop offending in particular....

For some reason in the past two years there has been a huge emergence of shows now all using line arrays even when not needed.
In the past I would see outdoor rock shows with huge trap systems that sounded... fantastic. Tran Siberian orchestra used to use the X array system and that blew my mind. I have seen a few great sounding shows with line arrays such as Muse and Dave Matthews band SO don't get me wrong as both can sound great and both can sound awful!

But having seen artists like T-pain and skrillex and sugar ray through 12-16 a side hang of line arrays for a show with ~3,000 people covering an area about 150 wide and 250 deep outside has me wondering what the hell they were thinking?

In each of these shows the same damn problems come up.
Vocals always sound like distorted shit and bass is just terribly lacking, they usually have 6-8 ground stacked subs a side and for electronic and rap shows.. they always are lacking and I can hear the systems max out and distort bass as well, almost always distorted as if they are maxing the systems out... Never sure if the boxes are out of headroom or the amps or the processing sucks. I try my best to peer at the gear used without getting in anyone's way. Seems like always enough power from the venues provided, enough amp power to power a small stadium and high quality boxes... It boggles my mind that I see smaller trap systems sound louder and clearer with less amp power at shows quite often compared to these de-facto line arrays cropping up everywhere now.

It's terribly apparent when the talent goes from singing to trying to speak normally to the crowd while the band plays or when you have a lot of LFE effects in music like synths.

It's strange because instruments tend to sound fine by themselves during sound checks I come early for so I doubt the *mix* is at fault, I know that when I run large shows with trap systems I will often use a dual PA setup with 4 50 degree boxes a side stacked with 2 50 degrees boxes on top and 2 on bottom PER side for 100 degrees per side in two levels as my trap boxes cannot handle being maxed out with instruments AND vocals combined through one single box. only one or the other at extremely high levels for outdoor shows.

I know the providers are not the same companies per show as I always ask who is providing the gear and the companies are never the same nor the same engineers or venues... this seems to be pretty widespread. Poorly deployed, over driven and ill fitted for the application line array systems.

Anyone else seen this crop up a lot in the past few years?
 
Sorry for the rant, as a weekend guy with modest gear it's driving me nuts how bad systems at shows have been sounding lately across the board unless they are A list $60 per ticket or higher acts
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: George Dougherty on January 15, 2013, 02:27:51 PM
Just a small rant for a moment ladies and gents.

I am in grad school as a younger fellow in Ohio and tend to go to all the shows I can when I am free from work as a weekend warrior and school. This means dubstep and  general electronic music and rap and hip hop offending in particular....

For some reason in the past two years there has been a huge emergence of shows now all using line arrays even when not needed.
In the past I would see outdoor rock shows with huge trap systems that sounded... fantastic. Tran Siberian orchestra used to use the X array system and that blew my mind. I have seen a few great sounding shows with line arrays such as Muse and Dave Matthews band SO don't get me wrong as both can sound great and both can sound awful!

But having seen artists like T-pain and skrillex and sugar ray through 12-16 a side hang of line arrays for a show with ~3,000 people covering an area about 150 wide and 250 deep outside has me wondering what the hell they were thinking?

In each of these shows the same damn problems come up.
Vocals always sound like distorted shit and bass is just terribly lacking, they usually have 6-8 ground stacked subs a side and for electronic and rap shows.. they always are lacking and I can hear the systems max out and distort bass as well, almost always distorted as if they are maxing the systems out... Never sure if the boxes are out of headroom or the amps or the processing sucks. I try my best to peer at the gear used without getting in anyone's way. Seems like always enough power from the venues provided, enough amp power to power a small stadium and high quality boxes... It boggles my mind that I see smaller trap systems sound louder and clearer with less amp power at shows quite often compared to these de-facto line arrays cropping up everywhere now.

It's terribly apparent when the talent goes from singing to trying to speak normally to the crowd while the band plays or when you have a lot of LFE effects in music like synths.

It's strange because instruments tend to sound fine by themselves during sound checks I come early for so I doubt the *mix* is at fault, I know that when I run large shows with trap systems I will often use a dual PA setup with 4 50 degree boxes a side stacked with 2 50 degrees boxes on top and 2 on bottom PER side for 100 degrees per side in two levels as my trap boxes cannot handle being maxed out with instruments AND vocals combined through one single box. only one or the other at extremely high levels for outdoor shows.

I know the providers are not the same companies per show as I always ask who is providing the gear and the companies are never the same nor the same engineers or venues... this seems to be pretty widespread. Poorly deployed, over driven and ill fitted for the application line array systems.

Anyone else seen this crop up a lot in the past few years?
 
Sorry for the rant, as a weekend guy with modest gear it's driving me nuts how bad systems at shows have been sounding lately across the board unless they are A list $60 per ticket or higher acts

All kinds of problems possible, though with 12-16 box per side hangs I'd tend to not throw the blame on the system unless they're just driving it past its capability.  Dubstep and much of the modern electronic music is going to challenge and beat your typical concert subs into the ground though.  What works for rock is often severely underpowered for those kinds of gigs.  Most subs run out of excursion real fast when you're covering 30-40Hz and need it strong to reliably reproduce the content.

It's also very possible that solo instruments during checks are fine and then the summed levels on the console are clipping groups or the outputs.  While it'd be a wonderful world if every show at that level had a truly competent engineer at the helm, it's not always the case.  Economy is tight, budgets are tight and production costs are being shaved wherever they can.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on January 15, 2013, 08:03:33 PM
What were the rigs?

I have worked with most of the top edm djs including skrillex a couple times.  His music has always been very clean.   I can tell you that I wouldn't want to try to throw 250' with my rig.  That's a lotto ask of a trap rig. I generally bring 6-8 subs per side.  With 3000 people I would definitely expect to be at or close to the limiters.  The system tech needs to keep the rig out of the red.  Skrillex's tour manager / tech likes to keep it clean too, he really cares about good sound.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Goerge Thomas on January 16, 2013, 10:39:21 AM
I would never want to throw that far either with my stuff, but then again I am guessing these shows have been under funded and these companies are simply not bringing enough rig for the gig...

So far the main offenders are Vertec hangs and Soundbridge hangs that I have seen driven by Crest and Camco amps respetively

The skrillex concert in particular was lacking in bass and I could tell that system was being pushed too hard for what the material was and I was so disappointed. Personally for EDM shows I always have an insane sub to top ratio so you can feel for lower material all over the venue and not just upfront. Clients always are willing to shell out more for this when I warn them

The last good show I saw on a line array system was an outdoor concert in a field with a 20 a side hang of the newer EV X line stuff with some EAW horn loaded subs unsure of what kind exactly with 16 center clustered. That system was run well and sounded incredible for an unreal amount of people.

Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 16, 2013, 10:55:56 AM

So far the main offenders are Vertec hangs and Soundbridge hangs that I have seen driven by Crest and Camco amps respetively



Well there's your answer. Soundbridge is crap, and so is Vertec when not used with iTech's.


I would imagine that a large part of your problem is the music genre. EDM, Dubstep, Rap, and Hip Hop are the absolute worst offenders when it comes to overdriven DJ's, and mic-cupping MC's.

After that, the budget for PA is typically lower for these events compared to more mainstream music. This invites the anklebiters with their half-assed rigs to come out and play.

You said your self that Muse and Dave Matthews sounded fine. They had a bigger budget for PA. And they have more give-a-shit than any rap act I've ever worked with too.


Quote
The skrillex concert in particular was lacking in bass
I would imagine that they used all the low-end that was available to them at the time. They were not willing to compromise sound quality for volume. That's a good thing.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 16, 2013, 12:14:06 PM
Well there's your answer. Soundbridge is crap, and so is Vertec when not used with iTech's.


I would imagine that a large part of your problem is the music genre. EDM, Dubstep, Rap, and Hip Hop are the absolute worst offenders when it comes to overdriven DJ's, and mic-cupping MC's.

After that, the budget for PA is typically lower for these events compared to more mainstream music. This invites the anklebiters with their half-assed rigs to come out and play.

You said your self that Muse and Dave Matthews sounded fine. They had a bigger budget for PA. And they have more give-a-shit than any rap act I've ever worked with too.

I would imagine that they used all the low-end that was available to them at the time. They were not willing to compromise sound quality for volume. That's a good thing.

Really, I-Techs are the secret to VerTec happiness?  While I agree they work nicely together (the Harman Mothership has seen to that), I don't think I-Techs are the only route.  That said, using I-Techs makes it harder to screw up.  Most of the bad-sounding VerTec I've heard is because the vendor didn't do a thorough job of designing the array in LAC...  or they use the same inter-box angles for a given trim height, regardless of audience/venue geometry.

I don't know what Muse does, but DMB carries production 99% of the time.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 16, 2013, 12:46:25 PM
Really, I-Techs are the secret to VerTec happiness?

Yes.

I am loving black-box processing more and more these days. Not only is it reassuring to me when I'm on the road as a band engineer, but also when I'm system-teching. It means there is less for me to screw up, which means shorter set up time, more consistent results, and less stress.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 16, 2013, 01:21:22 PM
Yes.

I am loving black-box processing more and more these days. Not only is it reassuring to me when I'm on the road as a band engineer, but also when I'm system-teching. It means there is less for me to screw up, which means shorter set up time, more consistent results, and less stress.

As the system engineer for a VerTec shop, I agree about black box settings.  I was under the impression that V4 presets for other processors were also locked...

I understand there are VerTec owners out there still using earlier versions of processing because in advancing, we get asked what version we're using.  Oy.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 16, 2013, 01:38:13 PM
As the system engineer for a VerTec shop, I agree about black box settings.  I was under the impression that V4 presets for other processors were also locked...

I understand there are VerTec owners out there still using earlier versions of processing because in advancing, we get asked what version we're using.  Oy.

I regularly run into places using crossover-du-jour to run Vertecs. It always sounds like crap. People always think they can "do better".
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 16, 2013, 01:53:42 PM
I regularly run into places using crossover-du-jour to run Vertecs. It always sounds like crap. People always think they can "do better".
I know someone locally who builds all of his own speakers. (This is for the EDM community, and local events only, so no riders to worry about.) He is absolutely convinced that he builds better speakers then, say, EAW or JBL, because he "cares more about it," or something like that. I remain convinced that he'd be hard pressed to design a better speaker then, oh, the people who do it professionally all the time.

Again, though, he's not worrying about meeting riders, so he does OK. That, and he only charges like $400/night for his system. *shrugs*

Ray
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 16, 2013, 01:57:58 PM
I regularly run into places using crossover-du-jour to run Vertecs. It always sounds like crap. People always think they can "do better".

OUCH.

I've heard the glorious results of misspent system arrogance.  You're right, it sucks.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Dave Bigelow on January 16, 2013, 04:47:42 PM
Well there's your answer. Soundbridge is crap, and so is Vertec when not used with iTech's.


I would imagine that a large part of your problem is the music genre. EDM, Dubstep, Rap, and Hip Hop are the absolute worst offenders when it comes to overdriven DJ's, and mic-cupping MC's.

After that, the budget for PA is typically lower for these events compared to more mainstream music. This invites the anklebiters with their half-assed rigs to come out and play.

You said your self that Muse and Dave Matthews sounded fine. They had a bigger budget for PA. And they have more give-a-shit than any rap act I've ever worked with too.

I would imagine that they used all the low-end that was available to them at the time. They were not willing to compromise sound quality for volume. That's a good thing.

That was my thinking too, stop listening to shitty music.

I worked a Muse show once back in 2004, even in a 1000 seat room they brought everything. At the time that was a PM5D and VerTec rig. From what I've read they were back to an XL4 for a while, no idea what they carry now.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: JoeHenson on January 31, 2013, 03:48:21 PM
Call me crazy George, but what if that's the rig the sound provider for these shows owned?  I don't know about you, but i'm in this business to MAKE MONEY and i'm not going to turn that gig down because all I've got is a line array instead an 850 rig.  Go buy a half a million dollars in PA and then turn down a gig because you don't think you've got the "proper" gear for the application.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 31, 2013, 11:05:44 PM
Call me crazy George, but what if that's the rig the sound provider for these shows owned?  I don't know about you, but i'm in this business to MAKE MONEY and i'm not going to turn that gig down because all I've got is a line array instead an 850 rig.  Go buy a half a million dollars in PA and then turn down a gig because you don't think you've got the "proper" gear for the application.

Would it be less confusion to call you Joe, instead of Crazy George?

My experience has been that most "system" issues perceived by the public are actually mixing issues.  Unless a portion of the audience area is out of the coverage, most punters only know if they liked the show or not.

Production providers go out of business if they don't give customers what they want.  If a client wants a line array, even if it's the wrong rig, the client will probably get a line array, and if not from me or you, Joe, they'll get it from one of our competitors.

We had to up our conventional trap box rig game after buying our VerTec just so we'd have a better option to offer clients who really, really shouldn't  be using a vertical array.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: JoeHenson on January 31, 2013, 11:19:08 PM
Good one, Tim  ;D
The point I was wanting to make to our friend is that we never know the scenario of how things went down and what the sound provider has available in their inventory.  I've still got an 850 rig as well as a VerTec rig.  I'm not saying that a line array is the answer 100% of the time; It just drives me crazy when people come on here to bash scenarios they dont have all the answer for
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 31, 2013, 11:39:40 PM
Every scenerio calls for a seperate solution, either using the gear you own, or the gear you rent. Tim is 100% spot on. The customer may not always be right, but they're never wrong.

I would suggest that if the OP is tired of hearing poorly deployed Vertecs in Ohio, that he listen to some in another state. Kansas might be a good start.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 01, 2013, 04:14:33 AM
Every scenerio calls for a seperate solution, either using the gear you own, or the gear you rent. Tim is 100% spot on. The customer may not always be right, but they're never wrong.

I would suggest that if the OP is tired of hearing poorly deployed Vertecs in Ohio, that he listen to some in another state. Kansas maight be a good start.

It's neither rocket surgery or brain science to make a VerTec rig sound good, but it's easy to compromise its performance, too.  We usually get a good report card on our rigs, and the big secret (ssssh.... ) is this: 

Mostly we use LAC1, do an auto prediction or 2, and put it up the way JBL says to.  That's it.  LAC 1... the Excel spreadsheet-based tool.  Okay, I do a couple of Super Secret System Guy® things (anybody who reads Bob McCarthy's book can do them) too.  But it's very fast to use for "auto" predictions to see which combinations of trim height, number of elements and splay angels give what types of coverage results.  Most of the time this yields a very useable result and if I'm walking into a venue and need PA configurations in the time it takes to dump the truck, this will do.  I hear some providers don't bother themselves with this step. :(

With more time, additional performance, consistency of tonality, and evenness of SPL can be achieved by modeling the array with LAC2.

The second most important thing a VerTec owner or system engineer can do is go to JBL and take the class with Paul Bauman.  The 3rd day covers system optimization and design choices, and it's like drinking from a fire hose.  The most important?  Care about what things sound like.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 01, 2013, 04:49:37 AM
That's the whole deal Tim. Lazy people, or people who don't care, or people who can't be bothered, will take the easy route. That route will be based on a quick visual assesment and a quick sound check. Anyone can make any system sound bad, and it doesn't matter whose array it is either. Owning or installing a rig is only a part of the picture, the canvas for the painting. The challange is always putting on the paint.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 01, 2013, 07:48:59 AM
That's the whole deal Tim. Lazy people, or people who don't care, or people who can't be bothered, will take the easy route. That route will be based on a quick visual assesment and a quick sound check. Anyone can make any system sound bad, and it doesn't matter whose array it is either. Owning or installing a rig is only a part of the picture, the canvas for the painting. The challange is always putting on the paint.
I have "fixed" many of our installs that were "bad sounding"-simply by going to the console and hitting bypass on all the channel eq's. :)

People will "whack away" until they have dug a huge hole-thrown themselves AND the sound system into it-and cannot find a way out.  So they blame the sound system.

How about just going to "zero" and starting over?

Don't blame Chevy if you don't know how to drive and wrap the car around a tree.
Title: Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
Post by: Craig Hauber on February 03, 2013, 12:33:52 PM
The EDM industry is so overwhelmingly focused on the gear that they suffer from this:

I would imagine that a large part of your problem is the music genre. EDM, Dubstep, Rap, and Hip Hop are the absolute worst offenders when it comes to overdriven DJ's, and mic-cupping MC's.


Of course their records sound better then their live-sound because the producer wouldn't let them leave the studio until he got what he wanted. (that and you probably can't "cup" a shockmounted Neumann with a pop-filter)

On the road the act thinks they know-it-all and don't bother with that same level of production to get their live sound where it belongs.

Instead, during advancing, they hassle you about what "speakerz" and LED walls you have at the club -and do have whatever flavor-du-jour of pioneer DJM they demand, -yet nothing about microphones or vocal monitors even though the act has live drums, guitars and a horn section!
When the act shows up at the club/event I shake hands with more "managers" and hangers-on then I can keep track of yet there isn't even an engineer or even a backline tech!  (it was almost criminal considering what these acts were charging the promotors)

I ran a large club for a few years and saw this cycle repeated over and over, felt bad for the guys I hired to run the boards those nights, but not bad-enough to want to help with the mix :-)