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Title: Announcer voice compression
Post by: John Alves on March 08, 2013, 02:42:36 PM
Hi everyone,

First off let me state that I am not a audio professional but a video professional looking for some info and I figure you guys are probably the best place to turn to.

I produce live sports for a national station. We shoot everything to tape and then post the whole show and have our play by play and colour guys do the voiceovers after the fact which has been working well.

The one stumbling block I've had is that during the event there is a event announcer and I use his intros. I'm getting this off the house feed but I don't have a proper audio guy mixing it as its the only time he would be needed. The levels can be a bit erratic so I want to run him through a compressor on his way to the record deck. Can you suggest a good affordable limiter/compressor for this type of audio.

I have been trying to research this on the web but it seems every time its someone talking about how the compressor works in a band scenario and I'm concerned that I may need something that would act different. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Scott Helmke on March 09, 2013, 01:55:51 PM
A dbx 166A or a 1066 would be fine, and easy enough to find a decent used one.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on March 09, 2013, 03:54:48 PM
A Symetrix 528e is what I most commonly see on announcer's. I don't have a huge background with them other then tweaking the knobs on one a couple of times though.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 09, 2013, 05:37:20 PM
I don't know the set up at the venue, but it's possible you have two issuse:

1)  Erratic volume from announcer due to his enthusiasm and/or moving in relation to mic

2)  House mixer guy trying to compensate for 1) by riding the level, perhaps mucking up further.

A possible solution might be to take a split from his mic before it goes to house mixer.     That way the signal yo'll have to work with in post hasn't been processed by the house mixer.

What are you editing the show with?   All professional video editing software programs have audio EQ / Compression / Effects available in the program.     
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 09, 2013, 06:22:02 PM
I don't know the set up at the venue, but it's possible you have two issuse:

1)  Erratic volume from announcer due to his enthusiasm and/or moving in relation to mic

2)  House mixer guy trying to compensate for 1) by riding the level, perhaps mucking up further.

A possible solution might be to take a split from his mic before it goes to house mixer.     That way the signal yo'll have to work with in post hasn't been processed by the house mixer.

What are you editing the show with?   All professional video editing software programs have audio EQ / Compression / Effects available in the program.   

I was asked to evaluate a problem with an arena sport announcer's intelligibility.  The microphone provided was a boutique dynamic with a very tight hypercardioid pattern.  When the announcer got excited and turned to observe action moving up and down the arena floor, he'd move out of the pattern.  I suggested a headset mic and invoiced them for a half day.

Another suggestion for the OP... if these are being recorded by your crew, how about putting a lavalier mic on the announcer?  No PA worries, no positional worries, will also pick up crowd sounds.  You'll have cleaner audio to work with in post.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: John Alves on March 10, 2013, 11:11:26 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions. I have been looking into the DBx and it is a front runner. I have heard good things about the Behringer MDX4600 4-Channel MultiCom Pro-X but I question behringers quality.

I am taking a split off the house so I'm getting a direct line. The main problem is that the announcer will give me a constant level and then suddenly will almost be yelling and obviously distorting.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 10, 2013, 12:30:47 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions. I have been looking into the DBx and it is a front runner. I have heard good things about the Behringer MDX4600 4-Channel MultiCom Pro-X but I question behringers quality.

I am taking a split off the house so I'm getting a direct line. The main problem is that the announcer will give me a constant level and then suddenly will almost be yelling and obviously distorting.

Where is the distortion coming from, the house or the mixer/recorder your crew is using?  If the announcer is overloading the input to the house mixer there is nothing you can do to fix it.  If the distortion is on your end, then simply turning it down and taking care of levels in post would work.  What is wrong with my suggestion that your crew use its own lav mic on the announcer?
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: John Alves on March 10, 2013, 01:06:21 PM
This is for a boxing in ring announcer. He won't want to get rid of his handheld plus he needs to hold it in front if the ref as he talks to the boxers. I'm getting a direct feed from his mic (wireless mic two receivers. House has one I have one) it distorts on our mixer but its a small production so I don't really have a dedicated audio person so peaks can distort. It's not that bad but I had a little overdriven audio on my last show so I want to av sound future problems.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Steve Milner on March 10, 2013, 01:53:22 PM
- I don't really have a dedicated audio person so peaks can distort.
- It's not that bad but I had a little overdriven audio on my last show.
- I want to av sound future problems.

  So, you don't want to hire an audio guy... but you would like free advise from an audio community, so you can go ahead and avoid hiring one of us... for your NATIONAL broadcast.
   
  Hopefully someone in the future doesn't decide to half-ass your job, and send you home so they can do it themselves... with some free advise from a pro-video forum of-course.

 Welcome to the community... I guess.  :-\

 
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: John Alves on March 10, 2013, 02:06:28 PM
Actually for your information this show was going to be cancelled and to save work for a few of us we found ways to make it work on a lower budget. If I had more budget I'd hire an audio guy but its not there. In the end I'd rather hire a few guys then not have any of us work. I get where your coming from but were just trying to salvage a show that hopefully we can build into something bigger.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 10, 2013, 02:44:17 PM
  So, you don't want to hire an audio guy... but you would like free advise from an audio community, so you can go ahead and avoid hiring one of us... for your NATIONAL broadcast.
   
  Hopefully someone in the future doesn't decide to half-ass your job, and send you home so they can do it themselves... with some free advise from a pro-video forum of-course.

 Welcome to the community... I guess.  :-\

That posting was a bit harsh in both tone and substance.  This forum is all about open discussion, Q&A, and problem-solving for the beginner and the seasoned pro.    We all work with limitations of time, talent, & budget.   The OP was asking a legitimate question about a legitimate problem he faces.
Title: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Steve Milner on March 10, 2013, 03:12:05 PM
John,
 Sorry for the harsh tone, I shouldn't have directed it towards you, as that's obviously unfair. As these situations become more frequent in the industry, I know it not always us (operators) who have a say in the budget / crew for a given show, but it's still frustrating all the same. 
  Maybe this week of being A1 on a projection heavy theater show, where the client decided a projection tech was unnecessary, only to be on comm with me every 5 mins with a projection question, has just taken its toll on my patience & understanding.
  My apologies to you. I always like to see a BSS DPR-402 or 404 for important channels when doing broadcast truck work... They seem to be pretty common in the rigs I work on.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 10, 2013, 03:30:48 PM
This is for a boxing in ring announcer. He won't want to get rid of his handheld plus he needs to hold it in front if the ref as he talks to the boxers. I'm getting a direct feed from his mic (wireless mic two receivers. House has one I have one) it distorts on our mixer but its a small production so I don't really have a dedicated audio person so peaks can distort. It's not that bad but I had a little overdriven audio on my last show so I want to av sound future problems.

John....

You should really listen to what Tim Mc said about putting your own wireless lav on the announcer.  You can use an omni and gain it up as much as you need since it won't be feeding into the PA, so no feedback.  It will pick up everything you need.

If you really want this to work, get the wireless rig, a compressor/limiter to even out the levels and take it from there.  IF you want to save the show and a few paid hours for people, spend the money on the wireless and the comp.  Cheaping out and putting out a poor product won't save anything.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 10, 2013, 04:46:03 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions. I have been looking into the DBx and it is a front runner. I have heard good things about the Behringer MDX4600 4-Channel MultiCom Pro-X but I question behringers quality.

I am taking a split off the house so I'm getting a direct line. The main problem is that the announcer will give me a constant level and then suddenly will almost be yelling and obviously distorting.

FWIW I use a 4600 and have had no trouble with it, but if you don't need 4 channels get a 2 channel unit because the 4 channel version doesn't have as many useful controls. I use the 4600 for my less critical channels and a 2 channel Samson S-com comp on my main vocal channels.(not that the Samson is a very good comp either but I got a good deal on both the 4600 and the S-com and they work fine for my purposes).
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Darin Ulmer on March 10, 2013, 06:37:48 PM
I'm getting a direct feed from his mic (wireless mic two receivers. House has one I have one) it distorts on our mixer but its a small production so I don't really have a dedicated audio person so peaks can distort. It's not that bad but I had a little overdriven audio on my last show so I want to av sound future problems.

It is possible that the distortion is happening in the wireless unit before it even gets to the mixer.  If your receiver has an audio level/peak meter watch it to make sure it is not peaking.  If so, reduce the gain on the wireless handheld transmitter.   
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 10, 2013, 07:35:49 PM
It is possible that the distortion is happening in the wireless unit before it even gets to the mixer.  If your receiver has an audio level/peak meter watch it to make sure it is not peaking.  If so, reduce the gain on the wireless handheld transmitter.

It's not his to adjust.........
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Darin Ulmer on March 10, 2013, 07:46:22 PM
It's not his to adjust.........

If that is the source of the problem he could explain the issue and politely ask.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 10, 2013, 07:50:39 PM
If that is the source of the problem he could explain the issue and politely ask.

Even if he received cooperation, his description of the mode of use of the hand-held transmitter means that it will still not function properly for what he needs.  Tim's solution of simply using a separate (user owned/operated) wireless lav on the announcer is the only solution I've seen so far that makes sense.

Having your own gear for broadcast/recording feed is always preferable.  It is the correct way to do it.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: John Alves on March 11, 2013, 02:03:56 AM
I will look closely into the lav idea but I'm not sure if that would make a difference . To clarify this is how I am recieving the signal. The announcer is using a wireless handheld. Not sure the model but its a top of the line Shure. The house audio has one receiver and I have another with both being tuned to the same mic so the feed I'm getting from it is clean and a good signal.

The problem is that I can set the levels for the announcer but he is not a pro and tends to yell into the mic from time to time. He is only on for a bit at the intro and then for the decision so we try to watch the levels but on my last show they got away a bit on us. Not bad but to me it was a warning that I have to find a better solution. We have it set pretty close so I figure if I throw a Peak Limiter in there to protect me in those moments when he suddenly gets too loud and were a little late on turning him down.

I think the solution of the lav is very similar if not exact to what I'm doing except that I'm using the same handheld mic. Am I correct in thinking that? Or is the lav still a better idea for a reason I'm not catching?
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: John Alves on March 11, 2013, 02:09:40 AM
No worries. I work in a city where Hockey is the bread and butter of the live broadcast technicians and I saw a lot of them suffer through the lock out this year. I am fortunate to not be one of them and because of that I have done what I can to help some out. Thus why I fired back. I understand where it's coming from but wanted to explain my side as to not be lumped in with someone who would cut a position just to be able to undercut.

John,
 Sorry for the harsh tone, I shouldn't have directed it towards you, as that's obviously unfair. As these situations become more frequent in the industry, I know it not always us (operators) who have a say in the budget / crew for a given show, but it's still frustrating all the same. 
  Maybe this week of being A1 on a projection heavy theater show, where the client decided a projection tech was unnecessary, only to be on comm with me every 5 mins with a projection question, has just taken its toll on my patience & understanding.
  My apologies to you. I always like to see a BSS DPR-402 or 404 for important channels when doing broadcast truck work... They seem to be pretty common in the rigs I work on.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 11, 2013, 03:03:48 AM

The problem is that I can set the levels for the announcer but he is not a pro and tends to yell into the mic from time to time. He is only on for a bit at the intro and then for the decision so we try to watch the levels but on my last show they got away a bit on us. Not bad but to me it was a warning that I have to find a better solution. We have it set pretty close so I figure if I throw a Peak Limiter in there to protect me in those moments when he suddenly gets too loud and were a little late on turning him down.

I think the solution of the lav is very similar if not exact to what I'm doing except that I'm using the same handheld mic. Am I correct in thinking that? Or is the lav still a better idea for a reason I'm not catching?

John, it's still not clear to me where the distortion is coming from, but we have a limited set of choices:

At the transmitter... overload of the transmitters AF input or any audio circuity between the mic element and the transmitter.

At the mixer... the input gain control is set for a more typical speaking voice and the yelling then clips the input.

The solution to both is "turn it down."

Now you should have clean audio going to the recording guys, but if there is still an issue with dynamic range and don't want to address it in post, you can insert a compressor/limiter in the announcer's channel on your mixer (or any number of other places in the signal chain).

The reason I suggest your own lav or similar mic setup is because you maintain control over it.  Setting up a mic on the announcer's jacket will pick up him and any other talent that is near him.  While not 100% ideal, you have a back up.  When the other source turns to shit for whatever reason (RF problem, bad interconnect cable... all the Murphy's Law stuff), you have another track to turn to.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Mark McFarlane on March 11, 2013, 11:06:27 AM
John, it's still not clear to me where the distortion is coming from, but we have a limited set of choices:

At the transmitter... overload of the transmitters AF input or any audio circuity between the mic element and the transmitter.

At the mixer... the input gain control is set for a more typical speaking voice and the yelling then clips the input.

The solution to both is "turn it down."

Now you should have clean audio going to the recording guys, but if there is still an issue with dynamic range and don't want to address it in post, you can insert a compressor/limiter in the announcer's channel on your mixer (or any number of other places in the signal chain).

The reason I suggest your own lav or similar mic setup is because you maintain control over it.  Setting up a mic on the announcer's jacket will pick up him and any other talent that is near him.  While not 100% ideal, you have a back up.  When the other source turns to shit for whatever reason (RF problem, bad interconnect cable... all the Murphy's Law stuff), you have another track to turn to.

To add a little to Tim's post...

1) If the announcer is (physically) distorting the capsule itself because he is screaming, you are SOL unless you get him a different mic that can take more SPL or get him to back off the mic.  You can try to train the guy, let him listen to your video and audio problem and the stroke his ego, "I'm sure you don't want to sound like this on broadcast, if you could move the mic away when you get louder both teh TV and live audiences would better understand your insightful and energizing commentary,...".

2) If he is distorting at the transmitter there is usually a sensitivity setting on the handheld mic that you can adjust.  You need to agree to this change with the live sound guys. 

A lav mic can help with both 1 & 2, the element is further away from the mouth and less likely to mechanically clip, and since you 'own' the mic you can adjust the sensitivity to whatever you want.

3) Compression/Expansion can then be added at the console but make sure it happens in the analog domain before the signal is digitized.  Once a 'too hot' signal is clipped by the AD conversion you are in a new world of hurt.  Compression can help, but if the signal is coming too hot to the preamp the preamp may muck things up before your compressor even sees the signal.  How much the preamp can be safely overdriven depends on the preamp.

4) If you get stuck with a clipped (and therefore distorted) digital signal in post, I've had fairly good luck repairing momentary clips using Izotope RX's 2's declipper/declick modules in post.  RX2 can do many other wonderful things like removing the AC noise,...  Probably the best $350 I have spent for audio post processing, RX2 can fix a multitude of sins.
 
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: John Alves on March 11, 2013, 03:12:14 PM
The announcer is clipping at my mixer. It is as easy as turning him down. The problem is that he will talk at one level and then suddenly spike. Since in a 3 hour show he's only on for total of a couple of minutes I don't have dedicated person to ride those levels. We try to stay on top of it but it got away a bit from us on the last one so I want to add something to the chain so that I have a buffer for when he peaks.

Thanks for the Izotope RX link though. that could come in very helpful if I do have issues in the future.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 11, 2013, 03:24:27 PM

Thanks for the Izotope RX link though. that could come in very helpful if I do have issues in the future.

That thing is a nice band-aid, alright.  But the proper way to address the problem is to keep it from happening in the first place.  The same amount of money spent on fixing the problem at the source will be better spent.

Tim has given you the correct answers.  Take heed and implement his plan.  Everything else is just "working down-stream".  Get it right at the source if you want to be/sound professional.

Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Mark McFarlane on March 11, 2013, 03:55:22 PM
The announcer is clipping at my mixer. It is as easy as turning him down...

Tim/Dick, if the transmitter isn't clipping (i.e. sensitivity and SPL are adequate), then I don't see how using a lav mic would 'effectively' be any different than just turning down the broadcast/record mixer preamp on the current handheld mic. If you have a clean signal coming out of the receiver it seems you just have to set the preamp gain to keep the loud parts from clipping and it shouldn't matter whether the mic is on the guys shirt or in his hands.

An exception, perhaps, is if the announcer is 'leaning into the handheld mic' when he gets loud, further exacerbating the loud parts. Then the 'fixed distance to the lav mic could help reduce the 'move in close and make it even louder' effect..

What am I missing?
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 11, 2013, 04:02:35 PM
Tim/Dick, if the transmitter isn't clipping (i.e. sensitivity and SPL are adequate), then I don't see how using a lav mic would 'effectively' be any different than just turning down the broadcast/record mixer preamp on the current handheld mic. If you have a clean signal coming out of the receiver it seems you just have to set the preamp gain to keep the loud parts from clipping and it shouldn't matter whether the mic is on the guys shirt or in his hands.

An exception, perhaps, is if the announcer is 'leaning into the handheld mic' when he gets loud, further exacerbating the loud parts. Then the 'fixed distance to the lav mic could help reduce the 'move in close and make it even louder' effect..

What am I missing?

Mark....

1.  An omni lav will pick up more usable and balanced input given the "point the hand-held mic at the interviewee" scenario. 

2.  .....will be less susceptible to clipping/distortion at the source due to distance from source.

3.  Offer redundancy when coupled with the hand-held wireless of the emcee/announcer.

That's three good reasons, all of which have been mentioned by Tim (and me) in his posts on this topic.

There are many good reasons to go with the lav.  There are no good reasons not to.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Mark McFarlane on March 11, 2013, 04:10:24 PM
Mark....

1.  An omni lav will pick up more usable and balanced input given the "point the hand-held mic at the interviewee" scenario. 

2.  .....will be less susceptible to clipping/distortion at the source due to distance from source.

3.  Offer redundancy when coupled with the hand-held wireless of the emcee/announcer.

That's three good reasons, all of which have been mentioned by Tim (and me) in his posts on this topic.

There are many good reasons to go with the lav.  There are no good reasons not to.

Thanks Dick. From what I read in the posts 1 & 2 aren't a problem for the OP, although I don't think he explicitly mentioned if the interview quality was adequate.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: Mark McFarlane on March 11, 2013, 04:14:32 PM
Thanks for the Izotope RX link though. that could come in very helpful if I do have issues in the future.

Like Dick said, it's a band aid, but a really good one. Free 30 day demo.  Comes with a standalone interface and various plug in formats which may be helpful depending on what your post environment is.
Title: Re: Announcer voice compression
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 11, 2013, 04:40:39 PM
Thanks Dick. From what I read in the posts 1 & 2 aren't a problem for the OP, although I don't think he explicitly mentioned if the interview quality was adequate.

Item 1 is part of his problem....a large part, given that the basic problem is too broad a dynamic range, from faint to clip.

Item 2 (redundancy) is something that professionals do not overlook.  How many times have you heard it said that for every wireless mic onstage there should be a wired backup ready?