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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Bob Leonard on January 08, 2013, 05:41:41 PM
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In another post I had referenced an X32 failure. It was a strange failure, and that's why I created the post. I was NOT beating on ULI and crew. I am quite sure that there have been other failures, but my concern with Uli and THIS product has been with the the "supposed" service available. Or, how would Behringer react to failures in their attempt to play with the big boys.
In all fairness to Uli and his crew I'll post the messages that were posted on YouTube that were not visible to me until AFTER my first post. Behringer has certainly stepped up to the plate and should be commended.
Please see below;
Just received my new X32 from FedEx. Thank you to everyone at Behringer. Very great customer service. Very great customer service.
Mike DTexasLiveSound's comment.
So Behringer just called my cell. They noticed my video of the defective X32 and are overnighting Texas Live Sound a brand new console. That they are going over with a fine tooth comb before sending out. Well played Behringer.
Joe Sanborn (http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC32XLHfuRezgU8wjjVQ1CsA) - Hi Mike, My apologies for the issue you are having. Issues with the X32 are very rare, but we treat any issue quickly and want to make sure you are back up and running ASAP. As it is Sunday, I have contacted Chase McKnight in our Las Vegas facility to take care of you first thing Monday morning. His direct number is: 702-371-0830 I have also sent you a PM with my cell number to get this taken care of ASAP. Best Joe Sanborn Manager, Channel Marketing MUSIC Group BEHRINGER
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In another post I had referenced an X32 failure. It was a strange failure, and that's why I created the post. I was NOT beating on ULI and crew. I am quite sure that there have been other failures, but my concern with Uli and THIS product has been with the the "supposed" service available. Or, how would Behringer react to failures in their attempt to play with the big boys.
In all fairness to Uli and his crew I'll post the messages that were posted on YouTube that were not visible to me until AFTER my first post. Behringer has certainly stepped up to the plate and should be commended.
Please see below;
Just received my new X32 from FedEx. Thank you to everyone at Behringer. Very great customer service. Very great customer service.
Mike DTexasLiveSound's comment.
So Behringer just called my cell. They noticed my video of the defective X32 and are overnighting Texas Live Sound a brand new console. That they are going over with a fine tooth comb before sending out. Well played Behringer.
Joe Sanborn (http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC32XLHfuRezgU8wjjVQ1CsA) - Hi Mike, My apologies for the issue you are having. Issues with the X32 are very rare, but we treat any issue quickly and want to make sure you are back up and running ASAP. As it is Sunday, I have contacted Chase McKnight in our Las Vegas facility to take care of you first thing Monday morning. His direct number is: 702-371-0830 I have also sent you a PM with my cell number to get this taken care of ASAP. Best Joe Sanborn Manager, Channel Marketing MUSIC Group BEHRINGER
Bob I dont think you need to defend yourself. You have every right to state your opinion, I own a x32 Yet I am still skeptical, are they going to keep this up a year from now? I am not sure but if they do I feel every company may have to step up their game.
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I may have been one of the people that seemed like they were coming down on you, which was not my intention. I only posted because I knew the situation had been resolved previously.
I'm also an X32 owner, probably less sceptical than some as stated previously. I still try to separate myself from the rampant fanboi-ism (allusions to oral sex have been made elsewhere in internet land)...
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I have a decent inventory of equipment including the X32, it is a feature ladened LIVE console and for is price and features it great. I couldn't give a damn if someone labeled me a fanboy because I said a few positives words about the board, BFD. It makes me a great ROI and I love mixing on it. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, so when ones opinion is interpreted as negative, they should not be suprised of point-counterpoint.
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Bob I dont think you need to defend yourself. You have every right to state your opinion, I own a x32 Yet I am still skeptical, are they going to keep this up a year from now? I am not sure but if they do I feel every company may have to step up their game.
Not defending myself at all, simply making my point clear. I've had plenty to say about Behringer in the past and have no regrets, however, after following the product and Uli's efforts the benefit of the doubt should be given.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinions, so when ones opinion is interpreted as negative, they should not be suprised of point-counterpoint.
Not directed personally but in a more general sense the same applies if posts are pereceived as overenthusiastic or ill informed as they will also tend to generate comments from both sides.
I agree that so far I have been pretty impressed by Behringer's response to the couple of common issues that seem to have arisen with the X32. I am also impressed by the apparent reduction in the marketing content that seemed to be part of every post from Behringer representatives. But it is still a relatively new product and I am interested to see how the mixer holds up after a longer period of 'real world' use as well as how the support goes as sales numbers taper off.
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I've read over 120 pages of the X32 thread to see what people's impressions of the board were. While I have only used a few "B" pieces, I always had my doubts as to their quality even though every one has done exactly what it was supposed to do. While keeping an open mind I had a hard time ignoring the large numbers of people impressions of the products. Uli has positioned himself in the pro audio markets by making large and some would call bold acquisitions. I have to say that Behringers response to any issues with this product have raised the bar as to trying to address any issue that has risen. The question was raised as to how long the support will last for this product. I don't think it's about this particular piece, but rather to how far Uli is willing to go raise the impression of the Behringer trademark. When you look at it from that perspective, it's a very worthwhile investment. And cheap at that.
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I've read over 120 pages of the X32 thread to see what people's impressions of the board were.
Research of first person experience is good.
While I have only used a few "B" pieces, I always had my doubts as to their quality even though every one has done exactly what it was supposed to do.
This is not logical. Doing what they are supposed to do is the definition of quality.
While keeping an open mind I had a hard time ignoring the large numbers of people impressions of the products.
Opinions vary. Professionals learn to decide for themselves, while there is often a need to cater to our customers opinions (aka riders).
Uli has positioned himself in the pro audio markets by making large and some would call bold acquisitions.
Some would call them opportunistic, but this is a natural progression to grow top line growth, and when brands are managed properly they can synergistically support (or at least not crater) each other.
I have to say that Behringers response to any issues with this product have raised the bar as to trying to address any issue that has risen.
Yes, that is how it looks.
The question was raised as to how long the support will last for this product.
It is difficult to predict the future, even with practice.
I don't think it's about this particular piece, but rather to how far Uli is willing to go raise the impression of the Behringer trademark.
Yes, this is very much a monetary investment in the brand. It cost money (reduced profits) to deliver comprehensive support to the market place. An easier investment to make after the company has grown this large, than while buying market share with low prices.
When you look at it from that perspective, it's a very worthwhile investment. And cheap at that.
Yes, I believe it is a worthwhile investment, and more than that, it is the right thing to do, but never cheap, or there would be no reason to not do it from day one.
JR
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I was NOT beating on ULI and crew.
Time sure change:
This used to be a link.
There was an unflattering qoute about Behringer here.
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Time sure change:
Amusing but not very gracious...
When the facts change Bob is entitled to change his opinion, no matter how bluntly the former was expressed.
One very obvious benefit from Uli's charm offensive is that people are less willing to say the same things to his face, as when his company declined official responses on the WWW, and such rants went unchallenged. Speaking truth to power is not always the wisest path when working inside the industry. Bob is apparently not worried about that.
Smart marketing on Uli's part. He should have personally engaged (or had his people engage officially with forums) a lot sooner.
JR
PS If I ever expressed myself in similar words, I probably meant it at the time, while I am not inclined to such language in print for posterity.
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It is difficult to predict the future, even with practice.JR
Oh crap.
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Well if that is the case and it is accepted forum behavior, then I guess it is ok to say F**k you to anyone here and then back track a few months or years later and say "my feelings has changed" and all is well, interesting.
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Well if that is the case and it is accepted forum behavior, then I guess it is ok to say F**k you to anyone here and then back track a few months or years later and say "my feelings has changed" and all is well, interesting.
In fact it is not accepted forum behavior.
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In fact it is not accepted forum behavior.
+1
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+2
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I just thought the original posting was a bt unfair.
Bob is a user of JBL products : I have dozens of blown up boards out of PRXs and similar items. Think about the EVOi series - almost all of them failed catastrophically. Moving on to Crown, every single one of the first I-techs from the first iteration that came into NZ had to be reworked. JBL Z32 zone controllers ? All blew up (eventually). I could go on (and on) about the so called "respectable" brands.
One random X32 failure?. Is this significant?.
M
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One random X32 failure?. Is this significant?.
M
Only if it's yours......... ;)
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In fact it is not accepted forum behavior.
I understand that not dropping the F-bomb on forum contributors (along with refraining from other forms of personal attacks) is good manners, but why should excreble products or shady manufactuers get a pass? Or are corporations seen as "people" here, too? /nudge, wink.
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why should execrable products or shady manufacturers get a pass?
No shit. (note corrected spelling.....picky, picky)
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No shit. (note corrected spelling.....picky, picky)
It takes a special product to give one that stercoraceous feeling.
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It takes a special product to give one that stercoraceous feeling.
Had to crack my thesaurus on that one. You even fooled the Forum spell-check.
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I understand that not dropping the F-bomb on forum contributors (along with refraining from other forms of personal attacks) is good manners, but why should excreble products or shady manufactuers get a pass? Or are corporations seen as "people" here, too? /nudge, wink.
No pass for the above "entities", but I'm pretty sure I made the "f**k you" policy clear during the conversion boondoggle a couple of years ago.
It's totally unnecessary.
;-)
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Well if that is the case and it is accepted forum behavior, then I guess it is ok to say F**k you to anyone here and then back track a few months or years later and say "my feelings has changed" and all is well, interesting.
I didn't say his feeling have changed, they probably haven't (I know mine haven't). I said the facts changed, a different matter entirely. Dogmatically sticking with an old view after the facts on the ground have changed is not a sign of professionalism, or IQ. While I consider Bob to be both professional and smarter than the average bear.
That post pulled from the way back machine does not make him or us, look very good.
JR
PS: In the deep south we call that showing your a** in public,,, I wonder what they call it Boston?
PPS: Embarrassing your friends publicly does not actually make you look better by comparison. It makes us all look worse. Of course that language is unprofessional while the sentiment was not that uncommon.
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I agree with you for the most part Mr. Roberts, I also come from the school of "praise in public, reprimand in private" from my 23 years in the military and earlier. But I also believe that if you do "show your a** in public" don't be suprised if you get it handed back to you.
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I agree with you for the most part Mr. Roberts, I also come from the school of "praise in public, reprimand in private" from my 23 years in the military and earlier. But I also believe that if you do "show your a** in public" don't be suprised if you get it handed back to you.
This seems to be a matter of no good deed going unpunished as Bob appears to have been trying to take a kinder-gentler approach to his criticism, and gets sand-bagged by old comments he made before Uli engaged with the forums personally, and announced numerous corporate policy changes.
The larger lesson here is to never put something in writing that you wouldn't say in person face to face to an individual, or want your mother to read. A good lesson for all of us.
I am constantly reminded of mistakes in my early writing, alas we can't go back and re-write history as much as some may want.
This seems much ado about nothing, not unlike the rest of the thread. Trying to change peoples behavior on the internet is like herding cats, but less fun.
JR
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Amusing but not very gracious...
As much as this was an "ass being handed back to someone" situation, I was also expressing my distaste for how many people were piling on the Behringer-bashing just a short while ago - and now they're quite the fanboys.
All it took was for a CEO to participate in a few forum threads on a website and all of a sudden it seems like the past never happened.
I have tried to have a balanced view of Behringer since I first discovered them, and I still try to do the same.
Uli Behringer wrote me a lengthy answer to my business-, rather than audio-, related questions on soundforums.net, and as much as I'm grateful for him sharing his wizdom I pretty much feel like I used to about his company.
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As much as this was an "ass being handed back to someone" situation, I was also expressing my distaste for how many people were piling on the Behringer-bashing just a short while ago - and now they're quite the fanboys.
All it took was for a CEO to participate in a few forum threads on a website and all of a sudden it seems like the past never happened.
I have tried to have a balanced view of Behringer since I first discovered them, and I still try to do the same.
Uli Behringer wrote me a lengthy answer to my business-, rather than audio-, related questions on soundforums.net, and as much as I'm grateful for him sharing his wizdom I pretty much feel like I used to about his company.
Bingo.
The current public relations push doesn't do a thing for the pile of dead product from our club rigs that still occupies various nooks and crannies in our shop. The DIs did find a use, though... we painted them black and use them as "angle adjusters" under monitors.
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As much as this was an "ass being handed back to someone" situation, I was also expressing my distaste for how many people were piling on the Behringer-bashing just a short while ago - and now they're quite the fanboys.
You are describing more than 95% of the population and this is more than human behavior, but basic barnyard behavior to pile on when someone appears weak.. Chickens will routinely peck a weak chicken to death... it is nature.
Group think is more of a human affectation because chickens don't think, alone or in groups.
All it took was for a CEO to participate in a few forum threads on a website and all of a sudden it seems like the past never happened.
I find this even more irritating that you but I think there are more nuanced differences going on since Uli's charm offensive. I doubt Bob has turned into a new Behringer fan boy, but is moderating his past hyperbolic language in deference to "Behringer" the man, now a member of the forum, and another professional who deserves the curtesy of basic politeness, not matter what we feel about his past behaviors.
I have tried to have a balanced view of Behringer since I first discovered them, and I still try to do the same.
Me too... And for better or worse I know a little more than I am willing to discuss publicly from decades in the industry. My opinion is based on a few decades of observed behavior not one new product and promises of a different future.
Uli Behringer wrote me a lengthy answer to my business-, rather than audio-, related questions on soundforums.net, and as much as I'm grateful for him sharing his wizdom I pretty much feel like I used to about his company.
I remain impressed with his communication skills but am not surprised since for his early years he also wrote all his own marketing and advertising copy. Chief executives are often persuasive salesmen too.
If I were him and undertaking a similar PR campaign I would personally reach out visible opinion leaders, and even assemble an email list to push spin at. I declined providing my email to one of his marketing guys (not that it is secret), and do not presume the personal(?) PMs from Uli were anything more than part of this larger campaign.
JR
PS I would be careful about doing anything associated with Bob's a**.. He is a big boy and probably doesn't need to be schooled by anyone.
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PS I would be careful about doing anything associated with Bob's a**..
He's from Beantown. All the better reason to remain up wind. :)
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John,
In the Boston area we call it showing your ass also. Sometimes, when honesty and emotion become one and the same it can be difficult to express ones self in a polite manner. It's generally impossible to show expression on the web, hence the insertion of objectionable language for which many of us are guilty. I suppose the late George Carlin was headed in the right direction, but that was another day and another time.
In my posts I have been guilty of using the abbreviated form of fornication under carnal knowledge and have actually been making an attempt to not use that abbreviation for the benefit of all, myself included. That is not to say that I regret using the abbreviation in the past. What I may regret is that I let my anger get the best of me in those instances in which I would generally have much more self control.
I'll have to say I find it odd that someone would pull a post from years ago in order to strengthen their cause. I find it odd because what I put on paper won't change who I am, what I am, or the honesty of my statements regardless. However, opinions are like assholes (can I say that?), and everyone has one. Opinions do change as does life, every day that we live it, and in some cases minute to minute.
Let's also not confuse my appreciation for above average customer support with becoming a fanboy. What Uli did for the unfortunate soul and his X32 was above and beyond. I have never seen a board drop shipped based on a Youtube video, and for Uli to take that step shows his commitment to his cause and he and his crew should be commended as should anyone who shows that much initiative towards customer service.
I noticed a remark about opinions changing, praise in public, etc. Let me make one point crystal clear. What you won't get from me is praise or silence in an effort to be all things to all people.
What I say here is what I would say to your face. I won't pat you on the back for making the wrong choice. I'll be honest based on my education and experience, both of which are substantial. I will have little respect for a person who won't say to my face what should be said. If I'm wrong so be it, tell me so and let's move on. If I have offended you, tell me.
Let's also make this distinction. Just because some heated words were exchanged it doesn't mean a person dislikes you, is out to get you, is always wrong, or is holding a grudge. Those rules are for the playground, and I don't go there very often. There are many people on this board who have felt the sting, and there have been many times that I have felt their's. What I respect in those people, yourself included, is the honesty of the statements made to my face. Those people I will do anything for, as has been the case through the past and will be into the future.
My position with Behringer has not changed. I still feel that some of their products would be best used as door stops, and that very few of Uli's products are close to being ready for prime time. That doesn't mean I have to dislike everything Uli has done, or dislike all of the products Behringer has to offer, just the same as I don't like everything JBL has done or all of their products.
I won't change my opinions concerning his budget EQ, compressors, analog boards, amplifiers, etc., or will I change my opinion regarding previous support. What I will say is that his efforts to promote and support the X32 product line appear to have merit. It appears that Uli and crew have decided that his recent mergers leave him with a lot to lose, and that the X32 is his chance to show the world there can be change. I suspect that Uli and most manufacturers would rather hear the truth, and I would also suspect the truth can be gleaned from the web sites of the world in one form or another. I seem to remember a manufacturer whose first live sound mic had serious issues. I remember telling that man the truth as reported by many members of this board, and I'm glad I did.
And I do respect Uli the man.
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fornication under carnal knowledge
Bob-
I believe it was:
Van Halen:For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge (1991)
-Wigs
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Bob-
I believe it was:
Van Halen:For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge (1991)
...or this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I5oiqRlej4 8)
-Wigs
Edgy Van Hayloft? The hammer-on banjo player?
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FWIW, the NYC authorized Behringer repair center (DBM Pro Audio) has yet to see a single X32 for repair.
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Bob-
I believe it was:
Van Halen:For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge (1991)
-Wigs
In this decade you are correct. In the 50's and 60's it was the other version, at least in Boston.
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Comments made in the anger of the moment after such extreme experiences of unreliability are understandable, if not in compliance with forum policy. More importantly, that discussion in 2008 struck a resonance with many other forum members who had had similar experiences with unreliable B* products and shared the same dim view of the IP policies of the company.
Since the leadership at the CEO level is publicly trying to make major changes in the company policy and reputation, I think it is very healthy that so many thousand forum participants are witnessing discussions like this and following the reports of reliability, service improvements, quality, etc. For those of us who are contemplating buying B* or other American Music Group products like Midas, Turbosound, etc, the next few months of open discussions of service and reliability issues will be of great interest. For me, this kind of sharing of experiences, naming names and discussing details, is one of the major benefits of a large international forum like PSW. I think we all agree that profanity and personal attacks have no place here and tend to diminish the value of the discussions.
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FWIW, the NYC authorized Beringer repair center (DBM Pro Audio) has yet to see a single X32 for repair.
I believe the authorized service centers primarily handle post warranty service so I would not necessarily expect them to have seen any X32s yet.
I do wonder why there are apparently two authorized Behringer service centers in New Hampshire yet there are none shown around areas such as Nashville, New Orleans, Atlanta, Indianapolis and Kansas City.
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In this decade you are correct. In the 50's and 60's it was the other version, at least in Boston.
Hah! In Chicago it was the phrase "If you see Kay..."
Carry on.
-Dennis
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... tell her I love her.
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A similar thread has been discussed before... (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,136246.0.html) thankfully, the forum admins locked it out of its misery.
I still stand by my post (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,136246.msg1273111.html#msg1273111) and appreciate JR's informative response (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,136246.msg1273146.html#msg1273146).
I still think that Behringer's bad reputation has been a product more of the price of their goods combined with the high sales volume (market penetration) creating the impression of a high failure rate rather than a measurable difference of quality. Out of four pieces of Behringer equipment I've owned, I've seen two complete failures; one apparently due to poor design, the other probably poor components; and one partial failure due to poor components (which I was able to rectify). The fourth item is still going strong, but I don't use it much. I've also had failures of other brands of products: Lexicon, Mackie, Audio-Technica to name a few; but I also don't have as many of those manufacturer's products. Maybe my experiences of failure would be higher if I had more products from other manufacturers? I can't say.
Further, once a company has a bad rep, we tend to hear MORE about the negative experiences because we are more likely to criticize when we know there's a bad rep (kick 'em when they're down). If some manufacturer had a 20% failure rate BUT took care of his customers like they were his own mother, he'd have a reputation better than the one that has a 2% failure rate but thumbs his nose at the customer -- and we'd hear more about the bad experiences and be quick to criticize the 2% manufacturer. That's just our fallible human nature.
It is refreshing, though, to see Behringer show initiative in the customer service department. It certainly can't be cheap, but after years of bad rep, it's a necessary move to keep them from going down the drain.
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If some manufacturer had a 20% failure rate BUT took care of his customers like they were his own mother, he'd have a reputation better than the one that has a 2% failure rate but thumbs his nose at the customer -- and we'd hear more about the bad experiences and be quick to criticize the 2% manufacturer. That's just our fallible human nature.
Except for some inconvenient math. A 20% failure rate across the board, and "mother grade" customer support would quickly consume all profit from a value product manufacturer, and drive them out of business.
It is refreshing, though, to see Behringer show initiative in the customer service department. It certainly can't be cheap, but after years of bad rep, it's a necessary move to keep them from going down the drain.
I applaud any company taking better care of their paying customers, for any reason at any time.
I doubt they were at any risk of going down, but at some point it becomes an easier and more productive path to grow top line sales.
JR
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I believe the authorized service centers primarily handle post warranty service so I would not necessarily expect them to have seen any X32s yet.
I do wonder why there are apparently two authorized Behringer service centers in New Hampshire yet there are none shown around areas such as Nashville, New Orleans, Atlanta, Indianapolis and Kansas City.
Dear Brad,
I wanted to confirm that our authorized service centers do handle both warranty and non-warranty repairs. Generally we have not yet had many of the X32s sent direct to service centers at this point. The reason behind this is that I want to get as many of the X32s directly back to our Las Vegas and other internal facilities to insure that we can provide immediate feedback into the quality and RnD operations.
As for the service centers in New Hampshire and the lack of authorized service centers in Nashville, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc., we are always looking for good partners so if you know any outstanding service centers, please let me know. I cannot guarantee that we will bring them on an authorized service center, but I will definitely reach out and start the conversations.
Best Regards,
Pat Ferdig
VP, Care
MUSIC Group