Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 11, 2017, 10:31:37 PM
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 11, 2017, 10:55:20 PM
At a corp. gig some weeks ago one of the catering crew asked me how to learn the FOH mixing thing. This is a female and we talked about the male presence, and not many females in this line of work. I told her my stories of hanging out for free until i was given a chance. I was young then and made the time, no family, etc. I do not know her situation, but i don't think she has the time for that. I want to give her some real world learning. Sort of the way i learned. We have a big deal 2 week thing in March, highlight of the year for a small town and am thinking of giving her a chance. First task would be " take this 80 pound rack up the stairs to the far side of the stage". I won't do that, but would like to see the look i get. Anyway this (my job) is monitors for a good size production. I want her to be there for set-up so the flow is understood, maybe as simple as noting where everything goes. She can then help with the patching of both FOH and monitors. Once set up i can show her how to tweek simple levels when someone needs a change. I have never done this, i learned by watching and asking questions, still do. Maybe this will work for her too. Any teaching direction would be helpfull. Thanks and sorry for the long winded post. Kevin.
I would not treat a woman any different than a man. The ladies I know in this business would be offended by your desire to insulate her from that side of the business. If she doesn't like moving heavy stuff around then this isn't the business for her. Pushing faders is 10% of the job. The other 90% is loading in/setting up/loading out. Not sharing that with her would be a disservice.
Post by: John Rutirasiri on January 11, 2017, 11:00:01 PM
At a corp. gig some weeks ago one of the catering crew asked me how to learn the FOH mixing thing. This is a female and we talked about the male presence, and not many females in this line of work. I told her my stories of hanging out for free until i was given a chance. I was young then and made the time, no family, etc. I do not know her situation, but i don't think she has the time for that. I want to give her some real world learning. Sort of the way i learned. We have a big deal 2 week thing in March, highlight of the year for a small town and am thinking of giving her a chance. First task would be " take this 80 pound rack up the stairs to the far side of the stage". I won't do that, but would like to see the look i get. Anyway this (my job) is monitors for a good size production. I want her to be there for set-up so the flow is understood, maybe as simple as noting where everything goes. She can then help with the patching of both FOH and monitors. Once set up i can show her how to tweek simple levels when someone needs a change. I have never done this, i learned by watching and asking questions, still do. Maybe this will work for her too. Any teaching direction would be helpfull. Thanks and sorry for the long winded post. Kevin.
Well there is no substitute for hands-on experience in a real production environment.
I was in a smiliar situation two years ago. Participated in a high school "shadow" program where a senior who was interested in an audio career tagged along.
Long story short, it didn't work. She could not show up at load-in (transportation issues), school would not allow any kind of wage (who wants to work for free?), etc.
I think for this to work, (1) the person has to be very committed (as in not committed to a full time job), and (2) he or she has to be compensated -- become a part of your crew. I don't think it is about gender.
http://www.soundgirls.org
John R.
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 11, 2017, 11:04:47 PM
I know, just don't want to start of on a bad note, let her lift, and watch and learn. No disrespect intended. She looks to be pretty strong.
I would not treat a woman any different than a man. The ladies I know in this business would be offended by your desire to insulate her from that side of the business. If she doesn't like moving heavy stuff around then this isn't the business for her. Pushing faders is 10% of the job. The other 90% is loading in/setting up/loading out. Not sharing that with her would be a disservice.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 11, 2017, 11:14:57 PM
I know, just don't want to start of on a bad note, let her lift, and watch and learn. No disrespect intended. She looks to be pretty strong.
Couple of other thoughts based on comments.
If someone is just tagging along to see what we do, then my comment was not appropriate.
If they are committed to learning the business, you have the desire to be a mentor, then they need to be compensated for the work.
If you are in a position to mentor someone that shows an aptitude for the audio profession I would tell you that it is a great joy to watch someone learn and to grow into a career from a job. I had the chance to do this a few times in my other vocation IT. A few individuals took off and are still at it decades later. I am blessed to have been able to enable them.
There are only two reasons I am in the audio business today. 1 - I enjoy it 2 - To give the folks the work for us the opportunity to learn and grow. Since I don't have to make money giving opportunity to these bright hard working kids is a joy I can't describe. We have decent gear but it's my team I am most proud of.
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 11, 2017, 11:21:26 PM
Well there is no substitute for hands-on experience in a real production environment.The gender thing is i have never tried to teach a woman in this field. I have shown girls how to fix their own motorcycles, even employed some. They got paid as any other person doing the same job. I am just not really a teacher by nature. If she is a watch,question and learn person i think it could go well. I look forward to helping her. I could be a stepping stone for the next thing in her life.
I was in a smiliar situation two years ago. Participated in a high school "shadow" program where a senior who was interested in an audio career tagged along.
Long story short, it didn't work. She could not show up at load-in (transportation issues), school would not allow any kind of wage (who wants to work for free?), etc.
I think for this to work, (1) the person has to be very committed (as in not committed to a full time job), and (2) he or she has to be compensated -- become a part of your crew. I don't think it is about gender.
http://www.soundgirls.org
John R.
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on January 11, 2017, 11:42:39 PM
Bring her over to your shop for an afternoon, go through some of the basics on equipment and set up, what the jobs is, show her how to coil mic cables, etc... and then give her a copy of the Yamaha handbook or Stark's book and have her come back in a few weeks after she has read and studied them. Then do an hands on interview. Bring her on as a shop rat and entry level technician, you know the rest.
You have a great opportunity here. She may not know anything and has no experience, but that also means she doesn't have any bad habits or knowledge that is just plain wrong. If she comes back after reading the Yamaha book or Stark's book and has managed to retain even 25% of them, then you know she has the capacity and drive to do the job.
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 11, 2017, 11:58:03 PM
If she is really interested, and I mean actually, seriously, really interested:I had those same thoughts. Set up a system, let her mess with it. Also am going to loan her the yamaha book, and give her links to other reads as well. Did not expect this many replies. Thanks to all of you. If it matters she is not a kid, somewhere in the 30's is my estimate.
Bring her over to your shop for an afternoon, go through some of the basics on equipment and set up, what the jobs is, show her how to coil mic cables, etc... and then give her a copy of the Yamaha handbook or Stark's book and have her come back in a few weeks after she has read and studied them. Then do an hands on interview. Bring her on as a shop rat and entry level technician, you know the rest.
You have a great opportunity here. She may not know anything and has no experience, but that also means she doesn't have any bad habits or knowledge that is just plain wrong. If she comes back after reading the Yamaha book or Stark's book and has managed to retain even 25% of them, then you know she has the capacity and drive to do the job.
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 12, 2017, 12:02:35 AM
You aren't going to learn mixing by watching someone else. Sure, you might learn some theory, and you might learn what all those knobs do (in an empirical sense).
No, you're only going to learn mixing by actually doing it. And starting out running FOH for a major production just isn't going to happen without a high likelihood of turning it into a disaster.
So that means the mixing practice is going to have to happen in a less critical environment. Like running sound for Bandy the Clown before a roomful of kids. (OK, that's an extreme example.) Or maybe a garage band when they are practicing in their garage. Or maybe a pep rally in high school.
I think most of us started with that stuff: forgiving clients and forgiving audience. People who pay three figures (or more) for concert tickets generally aren't forgiving.
Not to say that you're not trusted, but that you need to start simple when you're just learning the basics. Then at some point, if your company is doing bigger stuff, you move to monitors. The folks running the FOH console are often the people who've been there the longest. (I do Bandy the Clown. I do the garageless garage band at the church youth camp. I do simple weddings. I figure I am wholly unqualified to run even monitors for a ticketed event.)
If you're wanting to mix music, you need to listen critically to a lot of music. Of many different styles and genres. Why are you hearing what you're hearing? How has the engineer set the EQ for the lead guitar versus the bass? Was the backup vocal just brought up in the mix to highlight that measure?
But before you even get to mixing, it's good to know how the sound is even getting TO the mixer. What microphones are selected? How are the keys patched in? The best way to do learn that is the grunt work of setting and striking the stage.
Like others have said, mixing is a small part of the whole thing, and if you don't understand the whole thing you will have a difficult time approaching the mix intelligently.
So start with the basics, and I mean the real basics: pushing cases, rolling cables, setting and striking. Just like you have to learn about the physical things about your car (oil, fuel, tire pressure, traction, acceleration) to maximize your driving experience, it's wise to learn the physical things about audio production to maximize your sonic experience. The person at FOH will be expected to understand ALL aspects of audio production, because when something goes wrong, that's where all eyes will be gazing.
And, for the love of it all, before you learn anything else, start with learning how to properly coil a cable.
Post by: John Chiara on January 12, 2017, 12:03:17 AM
I know, just don't want to start of on a bad note, let her lift, and watch and learn. No disrespect intended. She looks to be pretty strong.I had a possible intern show up at a club gig. 4'9" tall 85 lbs. I spent half the time bending down to be able to hear her talk. She seemed sincere but I couldn't see her able to work any real show.
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 12, 2017, 12:12:36 AM
I had a possible intern show up at a club gig. 4'9" tall 85 lbs. I spent half the time bending down to be able to hear her talk. She seemed sincere but I couldn't see her able to work any real show.When did you meet my wife? I have been trying to get her into this for years! Tina is only about 4-11. She admits she does not have an ear for it. She also does not have a problem with me helping another female "get it". Got to love her trust and will not do anything to screw that up!
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on January 12, 2017, 12:34:34 AM
I had a possible intern show up at a club gig. 4'9" tall 85 lbs. I spent half the time bending down to be able to hear her talk. She seemed sincere but I couldn't see her able to work any real show.I don't think you can really count your kid as a possible intern. ;)
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 12, 2017, 12:44:11 AM
You know this, I know this, I'm guessing everybody who participates in this forum knows this, but I'll just say it to get it out there:Most of us started at the lowest step on the ladder. I just want to show her how it all has to fit as a performance. Food for thought for the eager. Yes coiling cables has to be known. Thanks to all. I am going to bed . will check in on this later. Kevin.
You aren't going to learn mixing by watching someone else. Sure, you might learn some theory, and you might learn what all those knobs do (in an empirical sense).
No, you're only going to learn mixing by actually doing it. And starting out running FOH for a major production just isn't going to happen without a high likelihood of turning it into a disaster.
So that means the mixing practice is going to have to happen in a less critical environment. Like running sound for Bandy the Clown before a roomful of kids. (OK, that's an extreme example.) Or maybe a garage band when they are practicing in their garage. Or maybe a pep rally in high school.
I think most of us started with that stuff: forgiving clients and forgiving audience. People who pay three figures (or more) for concert tickets generally aren't forgiving.
Not to say that you're not trusted, but that you need to start simple when you're just learning the basics. Then at some point, if your company is doing bigger stuff, you move to monitors. The folks running the FOH console are often the people who've been there the longest. (I do Bandy the Clown. I do the garageless garage band at the church youth camp. I do simple weddings. I figure I am wholly unqualified to run even monitors for a ticketed event.)
If you're wanting to mix music, you need to listen critically to a lot of music. Of many different styles and genres. Why are you hearing what you're hearing? How has the engineer set the EQ for the lead guitar versus the bass? Was the backup vocal just brought up in the mix to highlight that measure?
But before you even get to mixing, it's good to know how the sound is even getting TO the mixer. What microphones are selected? How are the keys patched in? The best way to do learn that is the grunt work of setting and striking the stage.
Like others have said, mixing is a small part of the whole thing, and if you don't understand the whole thing you will have a difficult time approaching the mix intelligently.
So start with the basics, and I mean the real basics: pushing cases, rolling cables, setting and striking. Just like you have to learn about the physical things about your car (oil, fuel, tire pressure, traction, acceleration) to maximize your driving experience, it's wise to learn the physical things about audio production to maximize your sonic experience. The person at FOH will be expected to understand ALL aspects of audio production, because when something goes wrong, that's where all eyes will be gazing.
And, for the love of it all, before you learn anything else, start with learning how to properly coil a cable.
Post by: Jeff Bankston on January 12, 2017, 02:29:27 AM
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 12, 2017, 03:10:55 AM
Adding castors to some items might be a reasonable adjustment.
Post by: Cailen Waddell on January 12, 2017, 08:05:37 AM
My staff was about a 50/50 split but I have had some departures and I am a little more male dominated now. Regardless, everyone is expected to do the same work - but they don't have to do it the same way. A team lift is perfectly acceptable if you can't lift something yourself... i worked with a short female electrician once who worked in a house with a high in trim in their battens, she carried a little step stool around and did everything the guys did in the same amount of time.
We had a particular Christian artist come through a couple years ago and their rider requested 6 strong men for the truck unload. I specifically staffed the call with all the women that worked for me...
Anyway, when teaching anyone sound in a shadowing format, my lead audio guy usually starts onstage, laying cable neatly, setting monitors, setting mics. We have a regular Sunday morning gig that is great for education as you get the same instruments over and over and there is enough time to move the mics around or double mic and instrument to let people learning how a ribbon mic vs a SDC vs a 57 might sound on a guitar amp. Generally you spend 6 months on deck learning... and start to shadow front of house, first watching the workflow then getting to try some of it, for example, today you are setttjng up the drum channels FOH (we always start with a clean scene for that). Gradually working up over another 6 months or more to where the individual can get through a sound check. Then we might start to give you smaller gigs, talking heads, etc. Always verifying that quality standards and met and that it sounds good.
Obviously at any point in the process if someone shows that they can't hear the difference then they don't have the ears for it and get run cable the rest of their lives. Or maybe try lighting
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: John Chiara on January 12, 2017, 01:00:03 PM
When did you meet my wife? I have been trying to get her into this for years! Tina is only about 4-11. She admits she does not have an ear for it. She also does not have a problem with me helping another female "get it". Got to love her trust and will not do anything to screw that up!
Actually her mom is 4'11" and super cute...which was part of the reason I agreed to check her out. Hasn't paid off!
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 12, 2017, 01:21:49 PM
I don't think you can really count your kid as a possible intern. ;)
I thought kids were "slave labor." ;)
Seriously, in many cases, a business owner's children are permitted to do work that would otherwise be verboten by child labor laws. I don't know how this applies to corporations, where the business structure is such that there isn't an "owner/operator."
I believe this exception was intended primarily to allow farm kids to work alongside their parents, a result of the belief that it is difficult for a small farm to be profitable when forced to engage hired labor, and an expectation that parents will be concerned enough for the safety of their own children that they will provide proper training.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 12, 2017, 01:39:01 PM
Actually her mom is 4'11" and super cute...which was part of the reason I agreed to check her out. Hasn't paid off!
It was bound to degrade at some point. On some days I think some of us more seasoned folks are beyond redemption. It's gotten so bad with me any time I flirt with a girl they think it's "quaint or cute", anyone under 25 sees me as a grampa...Oh well.
I really do believe in supporting women and STEM initiatives. They are so unrepresented in the sciences. You would have thought those gender role biases would have long been eliminated.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 12, 2017, 07:02:26 PM
No, I cannot lift the speakers up onto the stands on my own, yes - there are items that I struggle to carry.... BUT I do most of all the wiring in, setting up peripheral stuff like routers and DI boxes, frequency scans for iems and battery checks and replacement, setting and wiring in lights and all the other extra bits and pieces that we need to function.
Although I am unable to do those jobs Chris does, he will be the first to admit, he doesn't have grasp on a lot of the other stuff and we really couldn't do it as well without each other.
Post by: Stephen Kirby on January 12, 2017, 07:10:22 PM
I often tell folks that SR is 30% moving heavy things, 30% winding up cables, 30% looking for electricity, and only 10% turning knobs. It's probably true that that last 10% requires 90% of the knowledge though. If you have someone who thinks critically and linearly, then they can acquire knowledge pretty quickly. Give them a fishing pole and they'll work out the rest. When looking for staff the first thing I look for is: can they think. I can get them pointed in the right direction on the knowledge.
Trying to teach someone who just wants a 1-2-3 procedure is too frustrating to me. I know they will come to some situation where 2 just doesn't quite fit with 3 and be totally stuck. So in that vein, I really agree with the suggestions to offline set up a basic system and ensure the signal flow is understood. Then get to how to modify the signal at the various points. Then you can work at what ultimately comes out.
Post by: Dave Pluke on January 12, 2017, 08:35:22 PM
If she is really interested, and I mean actually, seriously, really interested:
Bring her over to your shop for an afternoon, go through some of the basics on equipment and set up, what the jobs is, show her how to coil mic cables, etc... and then give her a copy of the Yamaha handbook or Stark's book and have her come back in a few weeks after she has read and studied them. Then do an hands on interview. Bring her on as a shop rat and entry level technician, you know the rest.
+1
And, if she is committed to learning more, from both a "book learnin'" AND "hands-on" perspective, have her look into GTCC's Entertainment Technologies Concert Sound and Lighting program, here in High Point, NC. Top shelf Equipment and Instructors who have been there and done that.
http://degreeprograms.gtcc.edu/entertainment-technology/#toggle-id-1
Dave (disclaimer: current student @soundgtcc )
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 12, 2017, 09:32:23 PM
The reason why running sound works for Chris and I as a team is because we are just that - a team!...We both have our strengths and weaknesses. Chris does get the lion's share of the lifting and heavy carrying but from the time we get to a location to the time I finally lay my hands on the mixer and can relax a bit, I am non- stop working.Thanks for chiming in as you are the only female i know of on this site. I hope my comments were not taken wrong. Part of me wishes i did not ask in the first place, feel like i put myself in corner. You know how to do your part as the rest of the band/crew know how to do theirs. That's how it should be, takes less time to get the job done in shorter order. I am responding to many posts here. The people interested in sound always see FOH as the target. Most have no idea whats involved to get there. Took me a bunch of years to mix a band people pay to see. I do not know, at this point, if she has any capacity for this work. We shall see. I will give her some basic training, as in reading and real life system connection, if she wants to learn more we will take it from there. The remark about the heavy cases for her first experience was not to imply a woman can't do it, it was more to not run her off before she ever got a chance. The job at hand that i want her to experience has at some points 17 vocal mikes plus the good size band, horns and all. No way i turn someone loose on that. I agree about learning at the garage band level thing. Hands on is the only way. Ear training is another story. As to the post about listening to all sorts of music and figuring out whats going on can't be done without some time behind the board as you don't know how eq and blending work until you have tried to do it. After being around sound for 30 plus years i still miss things from time to time, not as much as 15 years ago, but we all screw up sometimes. I want to show her a big deal production. If it does not scare her off, we will take it from there. I am staying out of this now since i think i hit a nerve with the female thing and did not intend to start any trouble. Thank you all for your suggestions. If i remember i will report after the big show and see if we have a new sound girl working her way up. Thanks to all. Kevin.
No, I cannot lift the speakers up onto the stands on my own, yes - there are items that I struggle to carry.... BUT I do most of all the wiring in, setting up peripheral stuff like routers and DI boxes, frequency scans for iems and battery checks and replacement, setting and wiring in lights and all the other extra bits and pieces that we need to function.
Although I am unable to do those jobs Chris does, he will be the first to admit, he doesn't have grasp on a lot of the other stuff and we really couldn't do it as well without each other.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 12, 2017, 11:51:15 PM
Thanks for chiming in as you are the only female i know of on this site. I hope my comments were not taken wrong. Part of me wishes i did not ask in the first place, feel like i put myself in corner. You know how to do your part as the rest of the band/crew know how to do theirs. That's how it should be, takes less time to get the job done in shorter order. I am responding to many posts here. The people interested in sound always see FOH as the target. Most have no idea whats involved to get there. Took me a bunch of years to mix a band people pay to see. I do not know, at this point, if she has any capacity for this work. We shall see. I will give her some basic training, as in reading and real life system connection, if she wants to learn more we will take it from there. The remark about the heavy cases for her first experience was not to imply a woman can't do it, it was more to not run her off before she ever got a chance. The job at hand that i want her to experience has at some points 17 vocal mikes plus the good size band, horns and all. No way i turn someone loose on that. I agree about learning at the garage band level thing. Hands on is the only way. Ear training is another story. As to the post about listening to all sorts of music and figuring out whats going on can't be done without some time behind the board as you don't know how eq and blending work until you have tried to do it. After being around sound for 30 plus years i still miss things from time to time, not as much as 15 years ago, but we all screw up sometimes. I want to show her a big deal production. If it does not scare her off, we will take it from there. I am staying out of this now since i think i hit a nerve with the female thing and did not intend to start any trouble. Thank you all for your suggestions. If i remember i will report after the big show and see if we have a new sound girl working her way up. Thanks to all. Kevin.
No nerve hit here Kevin.... My point was to simply share how we do things and how it can work by playing to our individual strengths. I have never been one of those females who thinks ( or tries to convince others) that I can do what a man can do physically- that is just silly - I cannot. But I am strong in other areas which is what makes me valuable to the team.
Take her under your wing and teach her... Don't wrap her in cotton - she will find out what she can and can't do.
Women bring some nice 'girlie' attributes to SR - like neat cable management for example and we think outside the box quite well too, applying a different kind of logic to situations. Sometimes Chris and I are able to troubleshoot by coming at stuff from different angles.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 13, 2017, 12:58:41 AM
Thanks for chiming in as you are the only female i know of on this site. I hope my comments were not taken wrong. Part of me wishes i did not ask in the first place, feel like i put myself in corner. You know how to do your part as the rest of the band/crew know how to do theirs. That's how it should be, takes less time to get the job done in shorter order. I am responding to many posts here. The people interested in sound always see FOH as the target. Most have no idea whats involved to get there. Took me a bunch of years to mix a band people pay to see. I do not know, at this point, if she has any capacity for this work. We shall see. I will give her some basic training, as in reading and real life system connection, if she wants to learn more we will take it from there. The remark about the heavy cases for her first experience was not to imply a woman can't do it, it was more to not run her off before she ever got a chance. The job at hand that i want her to experience has at some points 17 vocal mikes plus the good size band, horns and all. No way i turn someone loose on that. I agree about learning at the garage band level thing. Hands on is the only way. Ear training is another story. As to the post about listening to all sorts of music and figuring out whats going on can't be done without some time behind the board as you don't know how eq and blending work until you have tried to do it. After being around sound for 30 plus years i still miss things from time to time, not as much as 15 years ago, but we all screw up sometimes. I want to show her a big deal production. If it does not scare her off, we will take it from there. I am staying out of this now since i think i hit a nerve with the female thing and did not intend to start any trouble. Thank you all for your suggestions. If i remember i will report after the big show and see if we have a new sound girl working her way up. Thanks to all. Kevin.
Debbie brings a voice of reason to many topics. She's a tremendous asset here.
I think I'd ask her why she wants to mix FOH. It's a visible position so it's easy to say "hey, I'd like to learn to do that", but maybe she has some musical background or experience (or control issues, like many of us). Your point about what it takes to get to FOH is spot on, though. It takes a lot of listening and experience to be a good mixerperson who credibly works with different genres and styles. That may not be the goal here, however. If she's been observing you do corporate-type work (more presentation than entertainment) and she's keen on it, start training her now.
After you show her the big deal production, ask her where she thinks she would fit in, both now and as her experience and knowledge increase. The answers might surprise you.
Keep us posted, Kevin.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 13, 2017, 02:42:17 AM
Just spent the morning with a young woman at work going over the technical aspects of printed circuit board assembly. She has a supplier management degree but works as a program manager for the operations group here. A real go getter/doer. I will always support someone who wants to understand the hows and whys. When you see them putting together the connection from one step to the next, or they ask some question that dives into some foundational aspect, then there's hope for this next generation. As opposed to the "go to the freezer, get the box" types who look at every process as a magic box that they just need to push on.
I often tell folks that SR is 30% moving heavy things, 30% winding up cables, 30% looking for electricity, and only 10% turning knobs. It's probably true that that last 10% requires 90% of the knowledge though. If you have someone who thinks critically and linearly, then they can acquire knowledge pretty quickly. Give them a fishing pole and they'll work out the rest. When looking for staff the first thing I look for is: can they think. I can get them pointed in the right direction on the knowledge.
Trying to teach someone who just wants a 1-2-3 procedure is too frustrating to me. I know they will come to some situation where 2 just doesn't quite fit with 3 and be totally stuck. So in that vein, I really agree with the suggestions to offline set up a basic system and ensure the signal flow is understood. Then get to how to modify the signal at the various points. Then you can work at what ultimately comes out.
I have been a pilot for almost 30 years and I am fascinated by how people learn. Personally I don't have a good memory for process. I use checklists. To me the level of effort to understand something is far lower than to memorize tasks. Task based learning means you have to have process to deal with problems. To me it compromises safety to have a pilot in command of a machine he doesn't understand. The recent loss of control accidents can be used to support my belief but the truth is our current training methods have increased aviation safety dramatically.
To tie this back to sound, someone wants to be taught how to adjust EQ. I honestly don't even know how to start to teach it, just move the controls, listed, repeat. Isn't that how we learn? Then once we learn what works we sharpen the saw, acquire finesse and transfer knowledge from similar situations in complex and creative ways. Isn't this the essence of learning and the beginning of understanding?
Post by: John Rutirasiri on January 13, 2017, 03:36:59 AM
To tie this back to sound, someone wants to be taught how to adjust EQ. I honestly don't even know how to start to teach it, just move the controls, listed, repeat. Isn't that how we learn? Then once we learn what works we sharpen the saw, acquire finesse and transfer knowledge from similar situations in complex and creative ways. Isn't this the essence of learning and the beginning of understanding?
IMO techniques can be taught, math can be taught, but not initiative and certainly not the "ear." Music is not objective like writing C code.
John R.
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 13, 2017, 05:55:12 AM
IMO techniques can be taught, math can be taught, but not initiative and certainly not the "ear." Music is not objective like writing C code.
John R.
... so you were born with mixing skills? :-)
Post by: Jay Barracato on January 13, 2017, 11:29:22 AM
... so you were born with mixing skills? :-)Mixing is simple when you are not fighting the system (or the arrangement).
One of the interesting things is that I think everyone finds limitations. Mine grow as I age. I can lift well over 200 lbs from knee height to shoulder height. Picking up an xlr laying on the deck is an exercise in pain.
That doesn't mean I sort my equipment in 200 pound units. I figure anything that even a smaller sized person cannot easily lift, should be a team lift for safety reasons.
At the lounge level, I love the larger ewi mic cases, as even fully loaded they are a reasonable lift.
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Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 13, 2017, 12:18:02 PM
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 13, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
IMO techniques can be taught, math can be taught, but not initiative and certainly not the "ear." Music is not objective like writing C code.
John R.
My undergraduate degree program was performing arts education. The ear can, in fact be trained. That training won't automatically make the owners of those ears into great musicians but it will significantly improve the performance of the student. We got to witness this first hand.
What can't be explicitly trained is the "gift" of music. Some folks don't have it at all, some have it to surplus and most of us get varying degrees of it... but whatever a person has naturally can be developed.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 13, 2017, 07:36:23 PM
IMO techniques can be taught, math can be taught, but not initiative and certainly not the "ear." Music is not objective like writing C code.
John R.
C is so 90's - You want to make money learn PHP
Anyway, you can teach the mechanics of writing code but like anything else there is an art to it. Some of the best coders in the world work with me on the freepbx.org project, one of the most popular vertical open source applications on the planet and they would take great umbrage with your comment.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 13, 2017, 07:57:56 PM
C is so 90's - You want to make money learn PHP
Anyway, you can teach the mechanics of writing code but like anything else there is an art to it. Some of the best coders in the world work with me on the freepbx.org project, one of the most popular vertical open source applications on the planet and they would take great umbrage with your comment.
Be a hero, write code in Ada. To run under BeOS. /snark
Post by: John Rutirasiri on January 14, 2017, 12:28:49 AM
C is so 90's - You want to make money learn PHP
Not for me, I'm strictly embedded.
Post by: Jay Barracato on January 14, 2017, 01:07:28 AM
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Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 14, 2017, 02:35:23 AM
Not for me, I'm strictly embedded.
Embedded is real art especially if you write in native assembler. I cut my teeth on the 8080/z80 in the early 80's. Later some various microcontrollers that I don't recall, been a long time. I chuckle at the amount of memory embedded guys have to work with today. We worked with 16k of ROM.
Post by: Ron Hebbard on January 14, 2017, 09:03:55 PM
As the years go by, I appreciate rolling units more and more. I attach wheels to everything I possibly can these days (or purchase already attached) and those items that I can't, I lay on top of pieces of equipment that do have wheels - subs make great dollies!!... so virtually everything we have at shows can be wheeled in. Of course wheels are of no help when lifting in and out of vehicles or up stairs or putting speakers up on stands etc but for the most part, I can at least carry in and out as much stuff as Chris does. Wheels baby - wheels!!!Some years back, there used to be a lady and her hubby from down Texas way. I recall her hosting one of the last LAB BBQ's. A picture was posted with several attendees including a very stern looking Gene Pink. What was the lady's name and whatever happened to her? Around about the same era, we had another wife and husband couple from somewhere in Florida. I seem to be recalling the Florida lady suffering a serious broken bone at some point.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 14, 2017, 09:10:39 PM
C is so 90's - You want to make money learn PHP
Be a hero, write code in Ada. To run under BeOS. /snark
Not for me, I'm strictly embedded.
Hey, no religion! ;)
A web/app developer friend of mine would say you should learn languages such as Ruby on Rails, React Native, Objective C, or Elixir... languages currently "hot" for developing mobile apps and websites.
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 14, 2017, 09:56:42 PM
Some years back, there used to be a lady and her hubby from down Texas way.
Are you thinking of Teri Leach Hogan? She's still around on Facebook. There are a lot of former forum users who have migrated to Facebook rather than following forums. The ones I see the most are Charlie Zureki, Andy Peters, Bink Knowles, and Triple J.
Mac
Post by: Mike Smith on January 14, 2017, 10:29:30 PM
Are you thinking of Teri Leach Hogan? She's still around on Facebook. There are a lot of former forum users who have migrated to Facebook rather than following forums. The ones I see the most are Charlie Zureki, Andy Peters, Bink Knowles, and Triple J.
Mac
Some good names, Mac. Many memorable posts.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 15, 2017, 04:10:21 AM
Hey, no religion! ;)
A web/app developer friend of mine would say you should learn languages such as Ruby on Rails, React Native, Objective C, or Elixir... languages currently "hot" for developing mobile apps and websites.
Yes, PHP still is the glue in all of this. We use Code Igniter, Bootstrap, Restfull API's and RoR integrations so you can mix your religion. Take a look at our work, especially a tour of our portal. I think it's off the hook good If you are into Jira check out the issue trackerr. www.freepbx.org
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 15, 2017, 10:45:52 PM
I have been without internet for days. I get back and the it thing became dominant! Most of these posts derail, that's what makes it so much fun to be here. I have seen the posts thus far and thank all for them. Most everything i own has wheels and yes Deb subs make good hand trucks. I will put a note on my ipad to get back to you after the show, April probably. And then i will be very happy winter is over, it was 9 last weekend, even had a pipe break. I may move farther south when we sell the farm. Good health to all and be safe in these cold months. Kevin.
Yes, PHP still is the glue in all of this. We use Code Igniter, Bootstrap, Restfull API's and RoR integrations so you can mix your religion. Take a look at our work, especially a tour of our portal. I think it's off the hook good If you are into Jira check out the issue trackerr. www.freepbx.org
Post by: Sean McDaniel on January 16, 2017, 10:33:54 AM
I had a possible intern show up at a club gig. 4'9" tall 85 lbs. I spent half the time bending down to be able to hear her talk. She seemed sincere but I couldn't see her able to work any real show.My fiancé is 5'2" and can load in, set up and strike a club size stage with the best of them. She needs help with the mains but so do I :)
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Post by: John Chiara on January 17, 2017, 05:00:46 PM
My fiancé is 5'2" and can load in, set up and strike a club size stage with the best of them. She needs help with the mains but so do I :)
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Can she drive a 24' truck? That was my first concern.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 17, 2017, 05:22:32 PM
Can she drive a 24' truck? That was my first concern.
I can - and I can back up any size trailer too!!
Post by: Stephen Kirby on January 17, 2017, 07:10:52 PM
I can - and I can back up any size trailer too!!It's the short trailers that are the most trouble. Once had to back my 5x8 up a 1/4 mile long driveway in the hills for an estate gig. Each side of it was lined with Jags and Bimmers.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 17, 2017, 07:23:04 PM
It's the short trailers that are the most trouble. Once had to back my 5x8 up a 1/4 mile long driveway in the hills for an estate gig. Each side of it was lined with Jags and Bimmers.
I agree - our 5x8 is fun too!
Post by: Josh Millward on January 19, 2017, 09:59:53 AM
Are you thinking of Teri Leach Hogan? She's still around on Facebook. There are a lot of former forum users who have migrated to Facebook rather than following forums. The ones I see the most are Charlie Zureki, Andy Peters, Bink Knowles, and Triple J.
Mac
Yep, John and Teri Hogan in San Antonio... I had the pleasure of going to their place for that BBQ with several other LAB types. The sub shootout was a lot of fun! John Lee from BassBoss (formerly BassMaxx) brought those really nice B-One's, two with the Aura 1801 drivers and two with the McCauley 18's.
In Florida you are thinking of Pea Trombley, bass player and sound chicka from St. Petersburg, FL. Her husband Dan typically helped her with her sound gigs. She was a good friend to me when I moved to the Tampa Bay area. I think it was Triple J (Jon Martin) who told me to do whatever I needed to do, just get down to Tampa... to be fair, he was right.
Post by: Ron Hebbard on January 19, 2017, 09:49:43 PM
Yep, John and Teri Hogan in San Antonio... I had the pleasure of going to their place for that BBQ with several other LAB types. The sub shootout was a lot of fun! John Lee from BassBoss (formerly BassMaxx) brought those really nice B-One's, two with the Aura 1801 drivers and two with the McCauley 18's.Right on! Thank you for the memories. And then we had Gene Pink.
In Florida you are thinking of Pea Trombley, bass player and sound chicka from St. Petersburg, FL. Her husband Dan typically helped her with her sound gigs. She was a good friend to me when I moved to the Tampa Bay area. I think it was Triple J (Jon Martin) who told me to do whatever I needed to do, just get down to Tampa... to be fair, he was right.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.