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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: James W Thomas on May 25, 2014, 07:53:48 PM

Title: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: James W Thomas on May 25, 2014, 07:53:48 PM
Hello. My name is James, and I am a mobile DJ.
Recently, I decided to "step up my game", quit restricting myself to nightlife-gigs, and focus more on events like weddings and trade shows (for ex.). I realized that for me to do so, I had to come equipped with my own sound-system as opposed to just wiring into house-systems as I've done for years.
I bought a Behringer VP1800s subwoofer, and bought a Behringer EP2000 power amp to power it.
I know next to nothing about hooking these things up, and don't want to set/do anything without advice from a professional. According to everything I have read, this amp is made to power this (Eurolive/Europower)
line of Behringer products.
I have exhausted my current budget, so I need to know how to utilize this to its' potential, where to station my knobs on the amp, and generally how not to blow anything out.
The first time I fired it up, I incrementally increased the knobs on both the PA and my digital DJ'ing "decks" (the Pioneer DDJSX). It grew hot, and then cut itself off, along with powering everything else off as well (laptop, etc). I fired it up again and lowered everything to make sure i didn't blow/burn-out anything, and now I will leave it alone until I am secure in the knowledge required to operate my investment.
I DO have a pretty generic powered 6-channel mixer, 2x 8" (powered) 400w monitors mounted on tripods, the DDJ-SX, and the Behringer Sub/Amp combo. I have no idea how to use the mixer, so I don't have it hooked up, but I am assuming that I will need to implement it somehow in this setup. I have been running the DDJ straight into the inputs on back of the amp per 1/4"-RCA cables (RCA end being in the back of the DDJSX). I can't afford to screw this up or have to repair it...
PLEASE HELP!!!   :-\
The manual is not helpful, the website is not helpful, and everything I do find is geared toward people who understand the terminology entailed in live-sound.
We all start somewhere, so I would greatly appreciate ANYONE willing to help me do so.
Cheers!
            James "DJ Shade Chylde" Thomas
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Thomas Le on May 25, 2014, 09:14:53 PM
It would be helpful to list out all equipment brand names and model names in full to give more detailed help.

If you have powered speakers, make sure to NOT plug them in from the amp output from the powered mixer. In this case, you can ditch the powered mixer as there's no need for it since there are no passive tops.

What I'd do based on what you're giving us:
- Run your DDJ-SX outputs to the powered speakers inputs.
- Run the loop out from the left powered speaker if it has one to the amp input.
- Set the amp to bridged mono, parallel inputs and turn on clip limiter via DIP switches in back.
- Run the amp output to your sub.
- Control the sub output using Ch. 1 knob on amp.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Scott Olewiler on May 26, 2014, 07:42:39 AM
It would be helpful to list out all equipment brand names and model names in full to give more detailed help.

If you have powered speakers, make sure to NOT plug them in from the amp output from the powered mixer. In this case, you can ditch the powered mixer as there's no need for it since there are no passive tops.

What I'd do based on what you're giving us:
- Run your DDJ-SX outputs to the powered speakers inputs.
- Run the loop out from the left powered speaker if it has one to the amp input.
- Set the amp to bridged mono, parallel inputs and turn on clip limiter via DIP switches in back.
- Run the amp output to your sub.
- Control the sub output using Ch. 1 knob on amp.
+1 on using the clip limiter. Page 9 of your EP2000 manual shows you positions for dip switches for bridged set-up.

If you're using amp in bridged mode you also must either wire your sub to the red binding posts only, OR if you are using speakon cables, on the end that plugs into the amp, you will need to take the connector apart and move the wire located at  1- and move it to 2+.  That end must then always go into the channel 1 output on the amp.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 26, 2014, 12:21:51 PM
OR if you are using speakon cables, on the end that plugs into the amp, you will need to take the connector apart and move the wire located at  1- and move it to 2+.  That end must then always go into the channel 1 output on the amp.

Better to make an adaptor, otherwise you might confuse your non-standard cable with a normal cable... or at least mark it up so it can't be inadvertently used.


Steve.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: James W Thomas on May 26, 2014, 03:26:27 PM
I have 2 Podium Pro PP802A Powered Monitors (Each independently powered, each with it's own amp built into the back), and I was aware that it would be a bad idea to run powered speakers into an amp. They are connected through 1/4" outputs on the back of the DDJ-SX labelled "Booth Out".

I have an 8-channel 1/4" male to RCA male cable run from the "Master Out 2" outputs in the back of the DDJ-SX (I don't have the XLR cables to go through "Master Out 1") run into the back of the Behringer EP2000 amp.

THIS is where it gets slightly convoluted. I AM, in fact, using speakon cables, but they are speakon to 1/4" male cables. Each 1/4" end of both speakon to 1/4" cables has an adapter (1/4" female, converting them to speakon). So in essentiality, they are simply speakon cables, though I have to wonder if those adapters compromise power management.

The adapter-converted end of each of those speakon cables is in the back of the Behringer EP2000, and each cable goes from there to the speakon inputs in the back of the VP1800s sub.

***DESPITE WHAT THE MANUAL SHOWS***
There ARE no 1/4" inputs in the back of the VP1800s sub. Only two speakon ports.

For all intents and purposes, lets forget the powered speakers, as they're run through a completely different channel on the back of my DDJ-SX (which I am now assuming alleviates the need for a mixer).

Please try to speak layman to me, to explain what the technical jargon in the manual (or that someone famliar with owning their own audio-system) has given me. I don't understand it, Guitar Center wouldn't advise me since they don't carry/I didn't buy the product through them.

Keep in mind, I AM an educated man who is able to learn quickly, but you need to approach me as though I've not dealt with this sort of thing before, because I haven't. I'm used to walking in, setting up on a house system, adjusting the EQ on a P.A., and then rocking out.

Please explain the "Clip/Limiter/Switches" settings to me, as I've not messed with ANY of that since I unboxed the amp, and am stumped there.

This might as well "all be Greek to me".  xD
I greatly appreciate the help guys.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Thomas Le on May 26, 2014, 04:15:11 PM
Before messing with the DIP switches, be sure to turn off the amp.

For using the DIP switches on the back of the amp, it's just a matter of using a small flathead screwdriver to move the switches to their corrective positions based on what the legend says for setting which settings you want to use.

In this case:
- To use the clip limiter, turn on DIP switches 1 & 10
- To turn on bridged mode, turn on DIP switches 6 & 7
- To use parallel inputs, turn on DIP switches 4 & 5
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Sander Rooijens on May 27, 2014, 05:48:12 AM

The adapter-converted end of each of those speakon cables is in the back of the Behringer EP2000, and each cable goes from there to the speakon inputs in the back of the VP1800s sub.

Just to be clear... you are running 2 cables from both of the outputs of the amplifier into the 2 parallel speakon connectors on one single sub?

If so then STOP doing that immediately! That explains the amplifier overheating and shutting down.

S.R.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Geoff Doane on May 27, 2014, 10:17:22 AM
Just to be clear... you are running 2 cables from both of the outputs of the amplifier into the 2 parallel speakon connectors on one single sub?

If so then STOP doing that immediately! That explains the amplifier overheating and shutting down.

S.R.

Good catch Sander.  That certainly explains why the sub wasn't loud, but the amp overheated and shut down.

To the OP:  The information you need (different configurations and connections) is there in the manual,

http://www.behringer.com/assets/EP2000_P0A38_M_EN.pdf

but if you don't understand either the verbiage or the drawings, I'm not sure there is much any of us can do with just words.  I don't really want to add to your misery, but to do this properly, you really need some kind of crossover to send an appropriately conditioned signal to the sub, (and an appropriate signal to the stereo mains) even before you wire the sub to a bridged amp.  The EP2000 appears not to have any kind of crossover (high and low filter, in very simple terms) built into it.

Obviously Guitar Center didn't sell you the stuff (since they're on the outs with BearRinger).  Did somebody else advise you on the purchases you made?  I think what you need is someone local to configure and package the system in a manner that will work for your needs, and give you some personal instruction on how to set it up.

GTD
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: John DiNicola on May 27, 2014, 06:41:52 PM
Dear James,
Geoff is correct that you should really use a crossover between the DDJ-SX and the EP2000, so that only the low frequency signals get to your subwoofer. This makes for a much more efficient system, as your subs are handling only low frequencies while your tops handle only the higher ones. You can find a number of affordable crossovers out there for around $100, such as our CX2310: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/CX2310.aspx. This particular model will also provide with you a Mono Sub output (with both the left and right signals) for connecting to Ch 1 on the EP2000, as Ch 2 is not used in Mono-Bridged Mode.

MOST Importantly:
As Sander points out, you do not want to be running two cables from the amp to the sub. Instead, when using Speakon cable in Mono-Bridged mode, one end of the cable must be modified as Scott suggests (Wire located at 1- in the connector moves to 2+). I would advise seeking assistance preparing this cable, as this is crucial to prevent damage to your amp/sub. You can read more by google searching information on Mono Bridge Speakon Wiring.

The setting of the DIP switches on the amp are also important. These are located on the back of the amp near the inputs and simply allow you to configure different settings for the amp. There is a diagram on the back of the EP2000 that tells you what each switch will do, and the proper settings for your application are in Fig. 3.6 on page 9 of the manual. Here are some explanations:

The clip/limiter makes sure that you do not overload the inputs to the amplifier, which helps prevent distorted signals that can/will harm you speakers from being amplified and sent to them. This is why you will want to engage these for both inputs (switches 1 and 10).

The low-cut filter removes the lowest frequencies from the signal, but this is not necessary since you are connecting to subwoofers. This is why switches 3 and 8 are disengaged. Switches 2 and 9 configure the cut-off point for the low-cut filter, and can also be disengaged.

Parallel output mode allows you to send a single input channel to both amplifier outputs. Since we will be using mono-bridged mode, these switches (#4 and 5) can be disengaged. Switches 6 and 7 activate mono-bridged mode, which is why these are engaged.

The good news is that once you have your amp and cabling configured for your application, the system should be fairly simple going forward. Please feel free to reach out to me via PM should you need any additional assistance. You can also contact our Tech Support staff in our CARE department for help at 702-800-8290 in the US or [email protected].

Best,
John DiNicola
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: James W Thomas on June 09, 2014, 11:09:07 PM
Would I be able to simply buy a second sub, or am i going to be required to have a x-over unit either way I go? I would rather have two subs than buy another unit to run one on something built to push two of them. If I purchased another sub of the same make and model, would my EP2000 amp be able to push both to their full potential, or would i still need a crossover or what?
I'd rather have another sub if that would mitigate power and the need to modify cables, etc...?
Guitar Center is VERY far from me, and in the retirement community where I live, there's really no call or market for audio-guys.
I drive 2+ hours to most of my gigs.
All of this has been greatly appreciated and insightful. I appreciate all of you helping me to learn through doing.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Scott Olewiler on June 10, 2014, 06:43:54 AM
Would I be able to simply buy a second sub, or am i going to be required to have a x-over unit either way I go? I would rather have two subs than buy another unit to run one on something built to push two of them. If I purchased another sub of the same make and model, would my EP2000 amp be able to push both to their full potential, or would i still need a crossover or what?
I'd rather have another sub if that would mitigate power and the need to modify cables, etc...?
Guitar Center is VERY far from me, and in the retirement community where I live, there's really no call or market for audio-guys.
I drive 2+ hours to most of my gigs.
All of this has been greatly appreciated and insightful. I appreciate all of you helping me to learn through doing.

James the crossover is a necessity: you need to spilt your signal so that only the high frequenciess, let's say 100hz and up are only going to your top speakers and the low frequencies are only going to your subs. For the speakers you have, a higher crossover point is probably in order, but this is to get the best sound possible. Without it the low frequencies going to your tops will suck all their power and you will not get any where near the performance out of your speakers that you would with the crossover. Adding a crossover gets you more volume out of both the tops and the sub, because you're not asking either to produce frequencies they are not efficient at producing.

Adding another sub will be no improvement.

Given the output of your tops, I see no advantage to adding another sub to this system until you've properly hooked it up with a crossover and had a good listen to it. I believe it will be plenty with just one.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Brian Jones on June 10, 2014, 12:57:33 PM
James the crossover is a necessity: you need to spilt your signal so that only the high frequenciess, let's say 100hz and up are only going to your top speakers and the low frequencies are only going to your subs. For the speakers you have, a higher crossover point is probably in order, but this is to get the best sound possible. Without it the low frequencies going to your tops will suck all their power and you will not get any where near the performance out of your speakers that you would with the crossover. Adding a crossover gets you more volume out of both the tops and the sub, because you're not asking either to produce frequencies they are not efficient at producing.

Adding another sub will be no improvement.

Given the output of your tops, I see no advantage to adding another sub to this system until you've properly hooked it up with a crossover and had a good listen to it. I believe it will be plenty with just one.

I didn't see anyone else mention some of this. I put it all in context so you know where in the process everything fits.

You should be connecting to the xlr (master) outputs on the ddjsx,

run those directly to the crossover you pick up.

Make sure the crossover you buy can give you a left and right high/mid output and a mono sub/bass output from a single pair of full range inputs.

Then you simply run the mono output to your amp, Follow the directions for running the amp in bridged mono mode, and use the single output from there. You will be using both "sides" of the amp for the single output this way. As mentioned, running two leads into your single sub is wrong. The 2nd connection there is for daisy chaining to another sub if you have more than one. This is known as a parallel connection. If you do end up buying a 2nd sub and running it in parallel off of the first sub, be aware the combined load of the two subs will have twice the power handling capability, and half the impedence (usually going from 8 ohms to 4 ohms) so you need to check if your amp matches up better this way, or by simply running one sub per channel, or by adding a 2nd amp run the same way in bridged mono mode. As others have mentioned, when you run an amp in bridged mono mode, different amps handle that differently. You need to follow the instructions in the manual explicitly. If you don't understand the instructions, ask about the specific language you don't understand. I've been there and know it is frustrating. Manual writers add in lots of stuff that isn't important for your purposes (but is for someone else) and even make mistakes. I remember trying to figure out what a TSR cable was and the manual writer meant TRS. To someone experienced, they would just look at that and know it was a mistake, but as a newbie, I was googling TSR and coming up empty.

Of course, then, hook up your powered tops to the crossover mid/high outputs with XLR and you're done.!

Good luck.

Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: jasonfinnigan on June 11, 2014, 01:05:34 AM
I hate to be the one to sound like a jerk here but, if you don't know how to even connect up a basic system you really shouldn't be trying it. Forums are a great resource however you can't teach someone over forums how to do these tasks very well.


I'd suggest finding someone local to help you or maybe find some YouTube videos to help you. The Yamaha sound book is a good resource as well.

Maybe this would help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MChYalokpdU
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 11, 2014, 02:57:32 AM
I'm sure in the past, we have all connected stuff up without knowing exactly what we were doing.

The smart thing being shown here by the op is asking for advice.

It's not rocket science and it's didficult to get it very wrong to the extent where damage can occur - other than connecting the outputs of the crossover the wrong way round putting sub frequencies into higher frequency speakers.


Steve.


Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: James W Thomas on July 01, 2014, 09:07:27 PM
I am going to go ahead and order the CX2310 Crossover unit, so all I need to know is what cabling to buy to hook up the VP1800s and EP2000 to the CX2310.
I will also be buying another VP1800s sub, so I need to know what I will need to avoid stipping wires and dealing with a mono-bridge.
As of now I have two speakon to 1/4" cables with Speakon Adapters on each (basically speakon-to-speakon). I am assuming I will need XLR, what configuration (male to female, etc...)?
Contrary to some folks opinions and beliefs, there is VERY little in the way of a layman learning how to do this outside of a forum or asking those who DO know. Nothing is presented in a "lets get started" manner, and from what I'm reading, each company for each of these types of equipment is finicky and unique in its' own way. I know I didn't pick the greatest setup, but I am self-made and worked very hard to get the limited funds i had, and i got what I could get at the time.
I appreciate everyone helping me out with advice and links to knowledge bases, but redundant responses and things not related to this question are not welcome here and will be ignored.
Be helpful, or be silent on this issue please.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 01, 2014, 09:32:19 PM

Contrary to some folks opinions and beliefs, there is VERY little in the way of a layman learning how to do this.

Actually Yamaha and many other companies are big on training and have lots of resources. I always point people to and they usually learn a lot form them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MChYalokpdU
http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reinforcement-Handbook-Gary-Davis/dp/0881889008/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1AWF950_VE

There's much much more out there.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Rob Spence on July 01, 2014, 09:37:03 PM
Rane has some great white papers that explain the basics.

Download a manual from Mackie for one of their mixers and read it. They have great diagrams.

Basics:
XLR cables are used for microphones and line level balanced signals.
With audio, the male end (the one that has pins visible) is the output. The female is an input. Most cables have a male on one end and a female on the other.
For example, a microphone will have a male connector built in. The mixer will have a female connector for each microphone input channel.
Most often, the mixer will have male XLR connectors on the outputs (they may also have 1/4" TRS outputs).
So, you connect outputs to inputs. Mic out to mixer in, mixer out to crossover in, crossover out(s) to amplifier (or powered speaker) inputs.

Often, speakers have a nominal impedance of 8 ohms. If you put 2 in parallel (by daisy chaining from one to the other for example) you now have a nominal 4 ohm load for the amplifier. If the speakers are 4 ohms, then you have 2 ohms.

Most amplifiers will work with loads from 2-8 ohms on each channel. If you bridge the amplifier, then the resulting configuration will work with loads of 4-8 ohms (not 2 ohms).

Ok, I am typed out.  Hope this helps.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 01, 2014, 09:54:11 PM
Ok, you bought another sub and a crossover.  That's good.  Does the crossover have XLR in's and outs?

Does your DJ thing that makes noise have XLR outputs for Right and Left full range?

A crossover divides the frequencies between highs and lows (this is in your case).  This is very important as not sending the lower frequencies to the tops will make them more efficient. 

Does the crossover also have a High pass filter on the low frequency output?  It is important that you don't send sound lower than the frequency the cabinet resonates at.  The woofer will unload and destroy itself.

The connection is simple - source to crossover crossover to amplifiers, amplifiers to speakers.

Let me give you some opinion here.

Is there any chance you can return all this stuff?   Frankly it's just not what you need.  The podium pro speakers should be at best a transitional solution until you can afford some pro gear.

What kind of music do you play?  The younger folks are going to want you to play music at levels that you are not equipped to do with this gear.  If you are playing to older audiences then you are barely going to use the Behringers as a heavy bass track is not what they will be after.

Next topic.  The Behringers are not going to survive many moves unless you are very cautious.  They are stapled together and have a reputation of being destroyed in shipping.  I salvaged someones by carefully reinforcing the inside of the box with MDF, I used glue and an air nailer trying not to change the volume of the enclosure.  The little board that divides the ports will be the first to go.  Are you handy with carpentry?

Why do I ask if you can send it back?  Lugging around a 130 pounds of speaker and amp, making the connections and setting up a crossover (and really an equalizer as you need the HPF I mentioned, a consumer EQ won't do) is a lot of work for a DJ.  You would have been much better off.  With two subs, the amp, a crossover and an EQ you have to be close to a grand.  That would have bought you a much higher quality powered subwoofer with a crossover built in.

More thoughts, have you checked your mains to see if they have a crossover?

Afterthought, an EQ like the FBQ6200 has an HPF and a crossover.  Kill three birds one stone.   One more update, that may be a lot of EQ for you.  An FBQ1502 has High Pass Filter, summing crossover and an EQ, punch this number into eBay 310978574365, it should make you smile.  The seller Union Squared has been around forever.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I want you to know what you are facing.



Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Rob Spence on July 02, 2014, 12:07:25 AM


Does the crossover also have a low pass filter?  It is important that you don't send sound lower than the frequency the cabinet resonates at.  The woofer will unload and destroy itself.



I think you mean High Pass filter (low cut).

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 02, 2014, 01:14:53 AM
I think you mean High Pass filter (low cut).

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Ooops he is absolutely right.  Need to proofread better.

I corrected the post.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 02, 2014, 02:52:18 AM
I hate to be the one to sound like a jerk here but, if you don't know how to even connect up a basic system you really shouldn't be trying it.

How else are people going to learn?  None of us were born with the knowledge of how to connect things up.

We learn by asking questions and experimenting.


Steve.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 02, 2014, 03:20:24 AM
I appreciate everyone helping me out with advice and links to knowledge bases, but redundant responses and things not related to this question are not welcome here and will be ignored.
Be helpful, or be silent on this issue please.

It's a public forum, James, and you get the responses folks provide... but this passive/aggressive bullshit doesn't fly here.   "Thank you.... be silent."  You're the pupil here, and you don't get to decide how the class is taught.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Scott Olewiler on July 02, 2014, 08:31:53 AM
An FBQ1502 has High Pass Filter, summing crossover and an EQ, punch this number into eBay 310978574365, it should make you smile. 

This EQ has a sub out but the "high" out is actually still full range.  It will not act as a true crossover.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: James W Thomas on July 02, 2014, 06:40:49 PM
It's a public forum, James, and you get the responses folks provide... but this passive/aggressive bullshit doesn't fly here.   "Thank you.... be silent."  You're the pupil here, and you don't get to decide how the class is taught.
Well sir, I have every RIGHT to tell a troll to keep his yap shut, a person with nothing productive to say is NOT a teacher, in ANY kind of forum, and is actually a hinderance to someone who is genuinely trying to learn something in earnest. I don't view those mocking my conundrum as "teachers", as much as "class bullies" with nothing better to do than rag on others stumbles and trials through their journey.
I was referring to one post, that was just douchey with nothing related to my question in it, and I don't think I was passively aggressive at ALL, in fact I think I pretty much flat out said "Stow it".
If I say be productive or be quiet, that is speaking to those that it applies to.
Are YOU guilty of providing redundant responses to genuine questions?
If not, then my statement should not have offended you or your ego.
I am getting paying gigs, I am actually feeding myself (and THEN some) with this, and therefore am doing what an educated and earnest person would do.
I am furthering my knowledge. I am asking people with the right knowledge, viable and valid questions to expand my own knowledge base.
Regardless of my standing or knowledge, I have every right to ask a question and to slap down b.s. trolling ON said questions.
Passive aggressive THAT, and bugger off.
Others have seen fit and chosen to be helpful beyond belief and expectation while NOT being condescending PR^CKS about it.
Remember that a student can choose his teacher, and not everyone learns best through browbeating and condescension.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 02, 2014, 06:44:19 PM
Well sir, I have every RIGHT to tell a troll to keep his yap shut, a person with nothing productive to say is NOT a teacher, in ANY kind of forum, and is actually a hinderance to someone who is genuinely trying to learn something in earnest. I don't view those mocking my conundrum as "teachers", as much as "class bullies" with nothing better to do than rag on others stumbles and trials through their journey.
I was referring to one post, that was just douchey with nothing related to my question in it, and I don't think I was passively aggressive at ALL, in fact I think I pretty much flat out said "Stow it".
If I say be productive or be quiet, that is speaking to those that it applies to.
Are YOU guilty of providing redundant responses to genuine questions?
If not, then my statement should not have offended you or your ego.
I am getting paying gigs, I am actually feeding myself (and THEN some) with this, and therefore am doing what an educated and earnest person would do.
I am furthering my knowledge. I am asking people with the right knowledge, viable and valid questions to expand my own knowledge base.
Regardless of my standing or knowledge, I have every right to ask a question and to slap down b.s. trolling ON said questions.
Passive aggressive THAT, and bugger off.
Others have seen fit and chosen to be helpful beyond belief and expectation while NOT being condescending PR^CKS about it.
Remember that a student can choose his teacher, and not everyone learns best through browbeating and condescension.

Into the Iggy Bin with you.
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: James W Thomas on July 02, 2014, 06:46:59 PM
To the scores and scores of you that have responded to this and offered very helpful advice, I thank you.
I TRULY have learned a lot here, and i am pretty confident that, though it might not have been the best choice of setup for me, the rig will now function in the capacity I needed it to.
I really appreciate all of the love and support, especially from those who led me on to other places where i could find very easily worded instructions on how to advance my knowledge to more advanced terminology and schema.
Thank you again, so much. This has expanded the ability I have to take jobs I'd previously had to turn down. You've helped feed a person, clothe them, helped them run their business, helped feed their pug and buy her toys, helped keep a girlfriend extremely happy with her "struggling DJ" boyfriend, and just generally shined!
Thanks again, Karma will reward you.
Warm Regards!
                        ~James Thomas~
Title: Re: I Really Need Help.
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 02, 2014, 07:03:46 PM
Well sir, I have every RIGHT to tell a troll to keep his yap shut, a person with nothing productive to say is NOT a teacher, in ANY kind of forum, and is actually a hinderance to someone who is genuinely trying to learn something in earnest.

With skin so thin I suggest avoiding the Internet.

Mac
admin
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 02, 2014, 07:56:13 PM
Well sir, I have every RIGHT to tell a troll to keep his yap shut, a person with nothing productive to say is NOT a teacher, in ANY kind of forum, and is actually a hinderance to someone who is genuinely trying to learn something in earnest. I don't view those mocking my conundrum as "teachers", as much as "class bullies" with nothing better to do than rag on others stumbles and trials through their journey.
I was referring to one post, that was just douchey with nothing related to my question in it, and I don't think I was passively aggressive at ALL, in fact I think I pretty much flat out said "Stow it".
If I say be productive or be quiet, that is speaking to those that it applies to.
Are YOU guilty of providing redundant responses to genuine questions?
If not, then my statement should not have offended you or your ego.
I am getting paying gigs, I am actually feeding myself (and THEN some) with this, and therefore am doing what an educated and earnest person would do.
I am furthering my knowledge. I am asking people with the right knowledge, viable and valid questions to expand my own knowledge base.
Regardless of my standing or knowledge, I have every right to ask a question and to slap down b.s. trolling ON said questions.
Passive aggressive THAT, and bugger off.
Others have seen fit and chosen to be helpful beyond belief and expectation while NOT being condescending PR^CKS about it.
Remember that a student can choose his teacher, and not everyone learns best through browbeating and condescension.

The interesting thing about posting on internet forums is that when potential clients Google you, they find diatribes such as this post.

There's some karma for you...
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 02, 2014, 08:09:07 PM
Into the Iggy Bin with you.

Well, gosh, Tim, it's not like your-- what, 30+ years of pro audio experience? would offer him much... right?!? :P

But really, James, I do commend you for coming on to the forums to try and boost your knowledge and skill sets, but please please keep in mind that there are people on here with literally decades of pro audio experience. That is not to say you shouldn't ask what you may think is a silly question, but people like to see a newbie come in with having tried to do it themselves. It appears based on your posts that you have not read the suggestions given by Scott and Rob, and so I would suggest going back and reading those. Then, if there's something that doesn't make sense, ask specific questions to clarify. That way, they see that their contributions have been noticed and appreciated. This also shows that you're learning from other posts on here! (Hint: the "search" function can also help you out a bunch.)

For those posts you feel are not helpful, ignore them for now until you learn enough -- both technical skills as well as the personality of the people involved-- to realise their value. To make a post or two like the ones you have already done so will, unfortunately, damage your reputation on here. People like Tim Mc-- I wasn't kidding. He has decades of experience using systems much larger then you ever thought of, mixing Bands You've Heard Of, and does it very well. Understand, please, that he wants to help you, but he's not going to tolerate you telling him off because you don't like the answers you've received. Yeah, people can be assholes on here at times ("don't you know anything?!?")(And no, not Tim! Don't worry! :P), but remember the ones who are assholes like THAT are not going to be the ones who will necessarily provide useful feedback.

Be humble and modest, and grateful for everything you're told, take another whack at your rig, come up with some new questions as to "why does THIS act in this way," or "how can I make my rig do THAT?" - that shows you're exploring your system capabilities and have an open mind to new ideas.

Just some thoughts...

-Ray
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 02, 2014, 08:45:57 PM
Ray, I quit counting years.  "How young are you, how old am I/Lets count the rings around my eyes." -The Replacements

Dude can be a jerk if he so chooses; I don't see his posts unless someone quotes him.

That said, I think he's fundamentally missing the point that this is a _community_ of like-minded folks, not a living wiki waiting for questions.  Likewise there seems to be some Terminal Uniqueness at play; the reality is that most of the questions have been asked and with patience they will be either answered again or links/searchable hints to prior discussions provided.  New discussion will inevitably follow and it's usually worth it to not be in a hurry.

Some of the folks in our community post specious "facts".  Some folks post advice that is based on too-limited or inappropriate experiences.  We can't change those folks, but we can challenge them when we can demonstrate either better ways/facts or show the errors in their homework.  The reality is that individually we cannot stop folks from posting (unless they get banned, and that's up to the mods), and that's something James will need to deal with.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 02, 2014, 09:20:21 PM
The problem is while, people can answer specific questions you ask on a forum but, they can't and/or don't have time to teach people the theory behind everything in a in a forum format so while you may have an idea of how to connect your current setup from what they tell you. But, as soon as something breaks or you are missing it somehow and if you don't understand the reason behind why you do it the way you are - you will be up the creek without a paddle with a very un-happy client.

Yes, you can post specific things for us to comment on and all of us will have varying answers based on our experience but part of it as well is to take it upon yourself to learn and research more. As I said, and I believe someone else said mackie has good resources which I didn't even know. Yamaha, Dave Rat, and many many others have places where you can use as a "starting place" to gain your knowledge. 

A forum just really isn't somewhere that it's easy for someone to ask "tell me all the bascis" especially when there are great resources geared for beginners and experienced alike.

Just my 2 Cents
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Rob Spence on July 02, 2014, 09:20:29 PM
Well sir, I have every RIGHT to tell a troll to keep his yap shut, a person with nothing productive to say is NOT a teacher, in ANY kind of forum, and is actually a hinderance to someone who is genuinely trying to learn something in earnest. I don't view those mocking my conundrum as "teachers", as much as "class bullies" with nothing better to do than rag on others stumbles and trials through their journey.
I was referring to one post, that was just douchey with nothing related to my question in it, and I don't think I was passively aggressive at ALL, in fact I think I pretty much flat out said "Stow it".
If I say be productive or be quiet, that is speaking to those that it applies to.
Are YOU guilty of providing redundant responses to genuine questions?
If not, then my statement should not have offended you or your ego.
I am getting paying gigs, I am actually feeding myself (and THEN some) with this, and therefore am doing what an educated and earnest person would do.
I am furthering my knowledge. I am asking people with the right knowledge, viable and valid questions to expand my own knowledge base.
Regardless of my standing or knowledge, I have every right to ask a question and to slap down b.s. trolling ON said questions.
Passive aggressive THAT, and bugger off.
Others have seen fit and chosen to be helpful beyond belief and expectation while NOT being condescending PR^CKS about it.
Remember that a student can choose his teacher, and not everyone learns best through browbeating and condescension.

Gee, and I thought you were a guest here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 02, 2014, 10:02:50 PM
mackie has good resources

Yeah, ever read the users manuals for their gear? Not only are they super straight forward (Hey, look, XLR goes FROM the mixer TO the amplifier, and it will only fit one direction.) but they have a good amount of snark to them as well.

A forum just really isn't somewhere that it's easy for someone to ask "tell me all the bascis" especially when there are great resources geared for beginners and experienced alike.

Exactly. And that is why I advocated to the OP to jump into his rig, play with things, and learn why they do what they do. There's going to need to be a lot of hands on trial-and-error involved, and then when he comes up against something he can't explain, that's where a) the forum's search tool can be used and then b) we can help on a more public basis.

But, there has to be a certain amount of determination to actually *learn* the skills, as opposed to "Just tell me the answer to my situation." Seems like we get a lot of those at times. (I remember Sky Miller... lol.)

So, James, let's get back to your situation. Have you read Rob and Scott's posts? Where are you at with your configuration? Let's see if we can make your rig the best it can be!

-Ray

(Of course, I gotta be careful now... my "+1 Guy" thread got locked... haha. awkward.)
Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 02, 2014, 11:13:15 PM
Ray, I quit counting years.  "How young are you, how old am I/Lets count the rings around my eyes." -The Replacements

Dude can be a jerk if he so chooses; I don't see his posts unless someone quotes him.

That said, I think he's fundamentally missing the point that this is a _community_ of like-minded folks, not a living wiki waiting for questions.  Likewise there seems to be some Terminal Uniqueness at play; the reality is that most of the questions have been asked and with patience they will be either answered again or links/searchable hints to prior discussions provided.  New discussion will inevitably follow and it's usually worth it to not be in a hurry.

Some of the folks in our community post specious "facts".  Some folks post advice that is based on too-limited or inappropriate experiences.  We can't change those folks, but we can challenge them when we can demonstrate either better ways/facts or show the errors in their homework.  The reality is that individually we cannot stop folks from posting (unless they get banned, and that's up to the mods), and that's something James will need to deal with.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

The challenging is where the real knowledge transfer happens.  If you think you are right and say something stupid you deserve to be called out.  I am a moderator on an IT forum for an Open Source application.  The degree of entitlement is beyond annoying.  They seem to think we came to understand through divine intervention.  Never thinking of the endless nights of trial and error, studying, learning by answering others questions.

I answered your question because I am new, and wanted to give back where I could.  It doesn't mean I didn't make shake my head.  I am glad you are making a living at this, you must be a hell of a talented DJ.  I haven't seen an answer to my question on what kind of music you play though I have a few more posts to digest.

It is surprising if you can go into a club and "patch into their system" as you say that a basic signal chain eludes you.  I shudder to think how you are going to manage gain structure with the where should I set the know mentality.  You have ears, you know what something should sound like.

Also if a Behringer $200 sub is a budget buster I hate to tell you but you are judged by that.  I can't imagine showing up to a gig with this gear and no matter what you do it is not going to sound good (muddy low end, brittle highs and lack of overall detail).  If you push it and try and play loud it is going to sound painful. 

Maybe you live in a rural area that simply doesn't have clients that appreciate quality sound and you would not get return on investment for quality gear that will hold up for you.  Heck a case for your amp will cost almost as much as the amp.

In a major market you would not get hired with that gear.

Certainly I wish you well and I hope this works out for you.  If you have questions ask away, as in life you may not like the answers but you can't complain about the cost.

Title: Re: New to Live Pro Audio, I Really Need Help.
Post by: James W Thomas on July 09, 2014, 02:09:47 PM
Yeah, ever read the users manuals for their gear? Not only are they super straight forward (Hey, look, XLR goes FROM the mixer TO the amplifier, and it will only fit one direction.) but they have a good amount of snark to them as well.

Exactly. And that is why I advocated to the OP to jump into his rig, play with things, and learn why they do what they do. There's going to need to be a lot of hands on trial-and-error involved, and then when he comes up against something he can't explain, that's where a) the forum's search tool can be used and then b) we can help on a more public basis.

But, there has to be a certain amount of determination to actually *learn* the skills, as opposed to "Just tell me the answer to my situation." Seems like we get a lot of those at times. (I remember Sky Miller... lol.)

So, James, let's get back to your situation. Have you read Rob and Scott's posts? Where are you at with your configuration? Let's see if we can make your rig the best it can be!

-Ray

(Of course, I gotta be careful now... my "+1 Guy" thread got locked... haha. awkward.)

Thanks Ray!  :)
I went ahead and ordered a duplicate Behringer sub, and a Behringer CX2310 X-Over.
I kept it proprietary. The reason my budget is so tight is I've purchased a complete mobile system in a matter of months out of pocket, and I'm pretty budget conscious when it comes to things that will most likely become components in a larger setup, or even augmentations to a venues existing system on occassion.
I utilized the advice here, and I am actually pretty impressed with the capability. Maybe it's because I stayed within a line of products meant to work together? No idea. But I'm not displeased at all.
I'll be getting myself a set of larger monitors as well.
It took a while to follow all of the leads here and I'm still doing so, but for the most part I'm getting the hang of this.
I appreciate the offer to help and everyone who stayed on topics posts as well.
I learned a great deal.