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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Isaac South on May 12, 2014, 03:10:21 PM

Title: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on May 12, 2014, 03:10:21 PM
Thank you for your time.  I am new to live sound.  I’m a musician so I understand all the terminology, but I don’t know the order that everything goes in and I don’t know even where to plug things in at.  I have a bunch of equipment that I need to put together for my worship band and I have no idea how to hook it all up.  Here’s a list of what I have.
Mains:        2 Peavey SP4’s
Sub:      1 Peavy SP118
Monitors:     2 Peavy PV112 Monitors
      1 Peavy SP115 Monitor

Mixer:      Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX-Pro

Power Amps:    1 Peavy PV900
      1 Peavy PV1500
      2 Peavy PV2600

Snake:      I’m not sure what brand, but it’s 100’ snake.

Other:      DBX 266XL Compressor (I don’t know how to use this so If I don’t need it, just tell me)
      Behringer EQ (also don’t know how to use this)
      Peavy Crossover (I think it’s a three way but not sure)
      DBX AFS 244 Feedback suppressor

Band:      2 Vocals
      Electric Guitar
      Acoustic Guitar
      Bass Guitar
      Keyboard
      Drums
      We also play CD’s for the drama team for their performances (I have a cd player)

I have no idea what order these items go in.  I don’t know what part of the board to plug them into.  And the snake really confuses me.  Is there someone out there that can assist me with detailed instructions?  I would be willing to pay for your time.  I know it can’t be that difficult, but I just don’t have any experience with this so I’m lost right now. I can also give you my phone number if that would be easier.  Thank you very much.

Here's a link to the owner's manual of my mixer:

http://www.behringer.com/assets/sl2442fx-pro_P0244_M_en.pdf (http://www.behringer.com/assets/sl2442fx-pro_P0244_M_en.pdf)

Thank you,

Isaac
[email protected]
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 12, 2014, 04:33:40 PM
Thank you for your time.  I am new to live sound.  I’m a musician so I understand all the terminology, but I don’t know the order that everything goes in and I don’t know even where to plug things in at.  I have a bunch of equipment that I need to put together for my worship band and I have no idea how to hook it all up.  Here’s a list of what I have.
*snip*
Thank you,

Isaac
[email protected]
This will get moved to the LAB Lounge. The "Classic LAB" is for the "big boys," touring people, major regional providers, etc. I feel nervous posting in here, and I do some larger festivals myself. But then every once in awhile I say something stupid. Haha.

Kudos for posting your location. Hopefully someone is near enough to Kentucky that they can give you some input and advice in person, as the hands-on experience will be best. Suffice to say...

* Mics (do you have them? Not on your list...) to mixer to amplifiers to speakers. Crossover: if it's 3way mono/2 way stereo, use it as 2way. You don't have the speakers to go three way/bi amped.
* Mixer aux outs to monitors. Then you send bits of whatever channels to whatever monitor mixes you want
* Compressor for vocal channels, if needed. This will be a "learn by playing with it" thing
* EQ patched into monitors, whether aux-insert or board to EQ to monitor amp/powered speaker.
* Snake allows you to be "front of house" in a good mix position, brings your mic channels to the board, and then gets the drive (returns, your mains and monitors) back to the stage area.
* CD player patch either to tape return or into channels. If you need the CD music in the monitors, which is nice for times when you have a performance like the "Drama team" then you will probably have them into a channel/channels so that they can be routed to the monitors. Many consoles won't let the tape input be patched to an aux send.

You know, in the manual you linked to, there is a "Wiring Examples" area... have you read through that?

-Ray
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Doug.Jane on May 12, 2014, 05:16:33 PM
I have no idea what order these items go in.  I don’t know what part of the board to plug them into.  And the snake really confuses me.  Is there someone out there that can assist me with detailed instructions?  I would be willing to pay for your time.  I know it can’t be that difficult, but I just don’t have any experience with this so I’m lost right now. I can also give you my phone number if that would be easier.  Thank you very much.

Actually, it is that difficult if you want to do it properly. Its just as difficult as learning to play an instrument properly. You have quite a list of gear there, if you set it up wrong then you could damage some of that gear.

If you wish to do this properly, you should either get serious tuition, or maybe you could keep playing and learning your instrument, and get someone else who is more qualified to operate the gear.

I get the impression that you have been delegated by the band in the interests of saving money to do the job! The first time you blow up your speakers you will discover that doing it the cheap way is not necessarily the best way.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Cailen Waddell on May 12, 2014, 06:15:24 PM

Actually, it is that difficult if you want to do it properly. Its just as difficult as learning to play an instrument properly. You have quite a list of gear there, if you set it up wrong then you could damage some of that gear.

If you wish to do this properly, you should either get serious tuition, or maybe you could keep playing and learning your instrument, and get someone else who is more qualified to operate the gear.

I get the impression that you have been delegated by the band in the interests of saving money to do the job! The first time you blow up your speakers you will discover that doing it the cheap way is not necessarily the best way.

Doug it sounds like the OP is doing the right thing. He is asking for help, let's not beat him up too much for not knowing what he doesn't know.

Making noise out of a sound system isn't terribly difficult, making good noise takes skill and practice, something that only comes with time and experience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Alex Rigodanzo on May 12, 2014, 06:55:52 PM
Its just as difficult as learning to play an instrument properly.

I'll strongly disagree with that.  As someone who has been reasonably successful learning to mix and failed miserably trying to learn to play, mixing is a skill that can be learned fairly quickly with zero natural talent required (other than a decent ear - if you don't have that, you can't do either). If you're a bit tech-savvy to start, it's an even shorter learning process.

That said, I did have an experienced person come to my house and help set up/test/tune the entire rig before I went out on my first gig.

It's a huge help to have a person who knows the stuff there to walk you thru things rather than just collecting info from books and the web and trying to do it all yourself.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Robert Weston on May 12, 2014, 08:10:31 PM
Thank you for your time.  I am new to live sound.  I’m a musician so I understand all the terminology, but I don’t know the order that everything goes in and I don’t know even where to plug things in at.  I have a bunch of equipment that I need to put together for my worship band and I have no idea how to hook it all up.  Here’s a list of what I have.
Mains:        2 Peavey SP4’s
Sub:      1 Peavy SP118
Monitors:     2 Peavy PV112 Monitors
      1 Peavy SP115 Monitor

Mixer:      Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX-Pro

Power Amps:    1 Peavy PV900
      1 Peavy PV1500
      2 Peavy PV2600

Snake:      I’m not sure what brand, but it’s 100’ snake.

Other:      DBX 266XL Compressor (I don’t know how to use this so If I don’t need it, just tell me)
      Behringer EQ (also don’t know how to use this)
      Peavy Crossover (I think it’s a three way but not sure)
      DBX AFS 244 Feedback suppressor

Band:      2 Vocals
      Electric Guitar
      Acoustic Guitar
      Bass Guitar
      Keyboard
      Drums
      We also play CD’s for the drama team for their performances (I have a cd player)

I have no idea what order these items go in.  I don’t know what part of the board to plug them into.  And the snake really confuses me.  Is there someone out there that can assist me with detailed instructions?  I would be willing to pay for your time.  I know it can’t be that difficult, but I just don’t have any experience with this so I’m lost right now. I can also give you my phone number if that would be easier.  Thank you very much.

Here's a link to the owner's manual of my mixer:

http://www.behringer.com/assets/sl2442fx-pro_P0244_M_en.pdf (http://www.behringer.com/assets/sl2442fx-pro_P0244_M_en.pdf)

Thank you,

Isaac
[email protected]

Looks like you have a lot stuff...

Highly recommended you try to find someone local to you that can come out and help you set it up.  It's a lot easier to see it done!  And, you can ask questions as the system is being put together.

Try posting your city location; perhaps someone on the forum is near you and can give you assistance.

Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Bill McIntosh on May 12, 2014, 09:03:01 PM
Looks like you have a lot stuff...

Highly recommended you try to find someone local to you that can come out and help you set it up.  It's a lot easier to see it done!  And, you can ask questions as the system is being put together.

Try posting your city location; perhaps someone on the forum is near you and can give you assistance.

Hi Isaac -- PM me if you like, I may be able to help on site. Depends on how far south of Louisville you are,  Central KY can be pretty wide. Always glad to help via e-mail.   8)

Is this for an install, or do you have to be portable? 

Are you going to have to mix from the stage, or is someone going to handle the mix for you?
 
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Russ Davis on May 12, 2014, 10:49:52 PM
Looks like you have a lot stuff...

Is all this gear yours?  Or is it the church's and you've been granted custody?  At the risk of incurring the scorn of gear snobs around here, most of what you have is perfectly useable for a praise band, at least at first.  As time goes on you'll learn what pieces can stay and which ones have to go.  For example: unless you're trying to cover a massive crowd, you've probably got more amps than you need for the speakers you have, and you may not even need that lone sub since the SP-4s are 2x15s.  Likewise, unless you have issues with vocals you probably don't need to start off with the dbx 266.  I could go on, but you get the idea.  Right now, Bill's your best bet for specific advice.  Good luck!
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Bill Schnake on May 13, 2014, 08:38:01 AM
Thank you for your time.  I am new to live sound.  I’m a musician so I understand all the terminology, but I don’t know the order that everything goes in and I don’t know even where to plug things in at.  I have a bunch of equipment that I need to put together for my worship band and I have no idea how to hook it all up.  Here’s a list of what I have.
Mains:        2 Peavey SP4’s
Sub:      1 Peavy SP118
Monitors:     2 Peavy PV112 Monitors
      1 Peavy SP115 Monitor

Mixer:      Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX-Pro

Power Amps:    1 Peavy PV900
      1 Peavy PV1500
      2 Peavy PV2600

Snake:      I’m not sure what brand, but it’s 100’ snake.

Other:      DBX 266XL Compressor (I don’t know how to use this so If I don’t need it, just tell me)
      Behringer EQ (also don’t know how to use this)
      Peavy Crossover (I think it’s a three way but not sure)
      DBX AFS 244 Feedback suppressor

Band:      2 Vocals
      Electric Guitar
      Acoustic Guitar
      Bass Guitar
      Keyboard
      Drums
      We also play CD’s for the drama team for their performances (I have a cd player)

I have no idea what order these items go in.  I don’t know what part of the board to plug them into.  And the snake really confuses me.  Is there someone out there that can assist me with detailed instructions?  I would be willing to pay for your time.  I know it can’t be that difficult, but I just don’t have any experience with this so I’m lost right now. I can also give you my phone number if that would be easier.  Thank you very much.

Here's a link to the owner's manual of my mixer:

http://www.behringer.com/assets/sl2442fx-pro_P0244_M_en.pdf (http://www.behringer.com/assets/sl2442fx-pro_P0244_M_en.pdf)

Thank you,

Isaac
[email protected]
Issac, it really isn't that hard to setup a system like this.  You just need to know how to flow from start to finish.  In the next day or two I will put together a drawing and send it to you email address.  It will start at the Behringer Mixer and end at the Peavey mains and monitors.  Anyway, I will get it to you in the next day or so.  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on May 13, 2014, 09:07:38 AM
Wow.  Thank you all for your help and support.  I do want to apologize for saying "it shouldn't be that difficult".  What I meant by that was the physical hooking everything up.  Not the skill required to master it.  I know that many of you are highly gifted and skilled at doing love sound.  I hope one day I can be on the same level.  But for right now, I just need to get it hooked up.  haha

Bill McIntosh-Thank you for the offer.  I live in Campbellsville.  45 minutes south of Elizabethtown.  I'm going to take a look at Bill Schnake's diagram that he is making for me.  If I need some additional help, I will definitely contact you.

Bill Schnake-Thank you! That sounds awesome.  That is exactly what I need hopefully.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 13, 2014, 10:30:25 AM
Wow.  Thank you all for your help and support.  I do want to apologize for saying "it shouldn't be that difficult".  What I meant by that was the physical hooking everything up.  Not the skill required to master it.  I know that many of you are highly gifted and skilled at doing love sound.  I hope one day I can be on the same level.  But for right now, I just need to get it hooked up.  haha

Bill McIntosh-Thank you for the offer.  I live in Campbellsville.  45 minutes south of Elizabethtown.  I'm going to take a look at Bill Schnake's diagram that he is making for me.  If I need some additional help, I will definitely contact you.

Bill Schnake-Thank you! That sounds awesome.  That is exactly what I need hopefully.

Isaac-

Simply put, *outputs* feed *inputs*.  The output of your mouth feeds the input of a microphone (acoustic connection); the output of the mic feeds an input to your mixer; the output of the mixer feeds (at the simplest) the input of a powered speaker; the output of the speaker feeds the input to your ear (acoustic connection).  All of the cables in between are simply means of making those connections; a snake is just a really long, multi-cord mic cable extension.

If you can either draw a picture (like the ones Behringer and other manufacturers put in the owners manuals) or do it in your head, but if you think in these terms you'll have a better grasp of what is really going on.

I *strongly suggest* that you read the manuals and experiment with the hook up.  Bring things up "low and slow" to avoid a big blast of feedback.  Begin with the simplest implementations, ignoring the equipment that does not conform to the diagram.  Keep it simple until you understand the concepts and can repeatedly get sound (not just noise) out of whatever you're hooking up, i.e. mixer to power amp to SP4.  Once you grok that concept, add in the 31 band EQ and experiment with it, listen to what it does when you move the sliders, and use music, your voice, and pink noise as the sources.  Add in another amp and the monitors, and hook those up to your mixer.  Make them work, and understand what you did to accomplish that.

Really.  Dive in, use both feet.  You'll never gain a true understanding of what's going on if all you accomplish is knowing how to put "tab A into slot B".
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: sam saponaro on May 13, 2014, 01:59:04 PM
for times when you have a performance like the "Drama team"
Hey..........how did my bandmates get brought into this. ;D
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Bill McIntosh on May 13, 2014, 11:09:46 PM
Wow.  Thank you all for your help and support.  I do want to apologize for saying "it shouldn't be that difficult".  What I meant by that was the physical hooking everything up.  Not the skill required to master it.  I know that many of you are highly gifted and skilled at doing love sound.  I hope one day I can be on the same level.  But for right now, I just need to get it hooked up.  haha

Bill McIntosh-Thank you for the offer.  I live in Campbellsville.  45 minutes south of Elizabethtown.  I'm going to take a look at Bill Schnake's diagram that he is making for me.  If I need some additional help, I will definitely contact you.

Bill Schnake-Thank you! That sounds awesome.  That is exactly what I need hopefully.

Just trying to pay something forward. The folks on this board have been invaluable. Check your e-mail, we may be able to connect.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on May 14, 2014, 08:27:23 AM
Isaac-

Simply put, *outputs* feed *inputs*.  The output of your mouth feeds the input of a microphone (acoustic connection); the output of the mic feeds an input to your mixer; the output of the mixer feeds (at the simplest) the input of a powered speaker; the output of the speaker feeds the input to your ear (acoustic connection).  All of the cables in between are simply means of making those connections; a snake is just a really long, multi-cord mic cable extension.

If you can either draw a picture (like the ones Behringer and other manufacturers put in the owners manuals) or do it in your head, but if you think in these terms you'll have a better grasp of what is really going on.

I *strongly suggest* that you read the manuals and experiment with the hook up.  Bring things up "low and slow" to avoid a big blast of feedback.  Begin with the simplest implementations, ignoring the equipment that does not conform to the diagram.  Keep it simple until you understand the concepts and can repeatedly get sound (not just noise) out of whatever you're hooking up, i.e. mixer to power amp to SP4.  Once you grok that concept, add in the 31 band EQ and experiment with it, listen to what it does when you move the sliders, and use music, your voice, and pink noise as the sources.  Add in another amp and the monitors, and hook those up to your mixer.  Make them work, and understand what you did to accomplish that.

Really.  Dive in, use both feet.  You'll never gain a true understanding of what's going on if all you accomplish is knowing how to put "tab A into slot B".

Tim,

Thank you.  This makes a lot of sense.  I think what gets me nervous is all of the extra gear like the compressor and the eq and the feedback suppressor and the crossover.  I like your idea of hooking it up without that at first.  Then incorporate those as I go along.  That sure sounds more manageable.  Thank you for that idea.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Thomas Le on May 14, 2014, 09:27:49 AM
For starting out, take out the compressor, the feedback killer, and the crossover (you're running 2x15's so there's alot of bass and you have only one sub).

Add the compressor to two channels of choice as inserts (preferably two vocals or a drum buss) if you're ready to try it out. Add the crossover if you have another sub to the output chain.

Since your setup is simple, run your stereo mix directly to main FOH amps and use the internal GEQ on the mixer, leaving the outboard GEQ for the monitor mix.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Cosmo on May 14, 2014, 05:23:59 PM

One of the first hurdles you will face is what to call the various connectors and how to use them.  You have probably already discovered XLR connectors, which are used to connect microphones to the mic inputs.  These same cables are also used to connect all sorts of gear to each other.  However, there is the cousin to the XLR and that is the good ol' 1/4 inch plug.  You will find that these come in two flavors, Tip/Sleeve (TS) and Tip/Ring/Sleeve (TRS).  I won't get into balanced vs. unbalanced here, but that is something you will want to read up on.  The TS quarter-inch is unbalanced and is what most guitar cables are terminated with.  They have their place in pro sound, but the much more common quarter-inch that you will run across is the TRS.  It is directly comparable to the XLR and gets adapted back and forth all the time.  One of the first adapter cables you will probably need is XLR-to-TRS, and both male and female XLRs will be needed.  These adapters can be in the form of a short cable or just the barrel type with XLR on one side and a TRS plug on the other.  Lots of single-rack-space equipment uses 1/4 inch jacks because they take up less real estate than XLR jacks.

With all that being said, one of the most confusing applications of a TRS plug is the unbalanced insert cable.  This is probably what you will wind up using to insert the compressor, for example, into a channel strip on the mixer.  This cable will have a TRS plug with two wires coming out of it, each terminating in a TS plug.  The TRS plug will go into the insert jack on the mixer and the two TS plugs will go into (and out of, respectively) the device being inserted.  They will be labeled SEND and RETURN and will go to the input and output of said device.

Lots to learn here, but keep at it.  It's loads of fun once you figure out the basics.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on May 15, 2014, 10:56:52 AM
One of the first hurdles you will face is what to call the various connectors and how to use them.  You have probably already discovered XLR connectors, which are used to connect microphones to the mic inputs.  These same cables are also used to connect all sorts of gear to each other.  However, there is the cousin to the XLR and that is the good ol' 1/4 inch plug.  You will find that these come in two flavors, Tip/Sleeve (TS) and Tip/Ring/Sleeve (TRS).  I won't get into balanced vs. unbalanced here, but that is something you will want to read up on.  The TS quarter-inch is unbalanced and is what most guitar cables are terminated with.  They have their place in pro sound, but the much more common quarter-inch that you will run across is the TRS.  It is directly comparable to the XLR and gets adapted back and forth all the time.  One of the first adapter cables you will probably need is XLR-to-TRS, and both male and female XLRs will be needed.  These adapters can be in the form of a short cable or just the barrel type with XLR on one side and a TRS plug on the other.  Lots of single-rack-space equipment uses 1/4 inch jacks because they take up less real estate than XLR jacks.

With all that being said, one of the most confusing applications of a TRS plug is the unbalanced insert cable.  This is probably what you will wind up using to insert the compressor, for example, into a channel strip on the mixer.  This cable will have a TRS plug with two wires coming out of it, each terminating in a TS plug.  The TRS plug will go into the insert jack on the mixer and the two TS plugs will go into (and out of, respectively) the device being inserted.  They will be labeled SEND and RETURN and will go to the input and output of said device.

Lots to learn here, but keep at it.  It's loads of fun once you figure out the basics.

Cosmo,

Thank you for the info about the cables.  It's funny you posted this, because I was just sitting here wondering about all the cables I have.  I have quite of few ranging from 1/4" to 1/4", xlr to xlr, speakon to 1/4", speakon to speakon, and more.  However, I have no idea if the 1/4" cables are TS or TRS.  I've done some googling and I think I can figure it out.  But if I use one that's not TRS, will it damage my gear?

Also, I know my speakon cables are cheap.  They were purchased on amazon and we were going for price, not performance.  Is this bad?  Will these damage my system?  Should I replace them and if so, how do I know I'm getting a good cable?  They are really expensive, but I guess that's better than damaging something.

Thank you.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Josh Millward on May 15, 2014, 11:35:04 AM
Cosmo,

Thank you for the info about the cables.  It's funny you posted this, because I was just sitting here wondering about all the cables I have.  I have quite of few ranging from 1/4" to 1/4", xlr to xlr, speakon to 1/4", speakon to speakon, and more.  However, I have no idea if the 1/4" cables are TS or TRS.  I've done some googling and I think I can figure it out.  But if I use one that's not TRS, will it damage my gear?

Hi Isaac!

If you are interfacing two piece of equipment together, like the output of your mixer and the input of your amplifier, you will not damage anything by using a TS cable in place of a TRS cable. There is the whole balanced signal versus unbalanced signal issue that we will not worry about right now in the interest of getting you up and going, but you will not damage anything.

The only way you could possibly damage something would be if you were to take the output from your amplifier (which is intended to go to a loudspeaker as it is considerably higher voltage and higher current) and run it into an input of anything that is not a loudspeaker. So, just do not do that. You can not take the output of one amplifier and feed it into another amplifier and expect it to be any louder, so do not do that either.

Also, I know my speakon cables are cheap.  They were purchased on amazon and we were going for price, not performance.  Is this bad?  Will these damage my system?  Should I replace them and if so, how do I know I'm getting a good cable?  They are really expensive, but I guess that's better than damaging something.

Quality cables do not have to be absurdly expensive, they just need to be built with good quality parts. Cheap connectors and cheap cable make for garbage products. I would encourage you to try to always buy cables with real Neutrik and Switchcraft connectors.

Also, loudspeaker cable... bigger is always better. Always. However, there is a practical limit to how big you want it to be. I know there are some guys on these forums that use 10AWG cable for their subs, but I have tried to standardize my loudspeaker cable collection on 12AWG 4 conductor cable with real Neutrik NL-4 connectors. To me, it seems that generally 12AWG cable is a good compromise between size, weight, and functionality. I would also highly recommend trying to never use 1/4 TS cables for loudspeaker lines, if at all possible. All amplifiers and loudspeakers should be outfitted with NL-4 connectors and all cables should use them, too.

Thank you.

We thank you for trying to learn. This seems to be in short supply these days and it is nice to see someone with a desire to learn something new.

I like to do this sound thing because it is fun! Hopefully you will find the fun in it too.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 15, 2014, 11:56:11 AM

Also, I know my speakon cables are cheap.  They were purchased on amazon and we were going for price, not performance.  Is this bad?  Will these damage my system?  Should I replace them and if so, how do I know I'm getting a good cable?  They are really expensive, but I guess that's better than damaging something.

One source for good, decent quality cables is Audiopile, at http://www.audiopile.net. They're located here in Washington state, but they ship anywhere in the US. Along with a good number of people on here, I get most of my speaker and XLR/1/4" cables from them. Genuine Neutrik cable ends, of course, and they will custom make anything you need.

Check your current Speakon cables-- if they're labeled as Neutrik or Switchcraft, and at least 14-13 gauge, you're probably OK. Learn how to disassemble/re-assemble them, and how the cable connects on the inside, as having a basic knowledge of cable maintenance is really important.

-Ray
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Cosmo on May 15, 2014, 05:00:32 PM

I have quite of few ranging from 1/4" to 1/4", xlr to xlr, speakon to 1/4", speakon to speakon, and more.  However, I have no idea if the 1/4" cables are TS or TRS.  I've done some googling and I think I can figure it out.  But if I use one that's not TRS, will it damage my gear?

Just look at the plug.  If you see the tip, then a thin line (insulator), then the rest of the sleeve, it is a TS.  If you see the tip, then a thin line, then a short part of the sleeve (the "ring"), then another thin line, then the rest of the sleeve, it is a TRS (three conductors).  Unscrew the barrel on any 1/4-inch plug and you will see the wires soldered to the terminals.

As you get deeper into this hobby/career, you will discover that the three conductors in an XLR cable correspond to the three conductors in a TRS plug.  In an XLR, the conductors are numbered (look closely at the end with a flashlight).  Pin 2 usually carries the positive part of the signal (also called Pin 2 Hot), pin 3 is negative (cold), and pin 1 will be the shield (the outer wrapping around the center two wires, either braided wire or foil, or both).

On a TRS plug, the tip is usually hot, the ring cold, and the sleeve is the shield conductor.  To make your own adapter cables, just take a chunk of mic cable and solder one of each type on the ends.  Remember, this is for a balanced cable.  On a TS plug, the tip is still usually the positive signal and the sleeve carries the negative.  There is no shield.  As Josh mentioned, you will not hurt anything using TS connectors, but without the shield you are susceptible to picking up unwanted noise in the cable from outside sources, such as radio waves or electromagnetic fields.  This will show up as a hum or buzz in the PA.  Three-conductor (balanced) cables will usually avoid this because the shield will "protect" the inner two wires.

Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on May 16, 2014, 08:17:34 AM
Josh Millward, Ray Aberle, Cosmo:  Thank you for the information on cables.  I understand the TS and TRS now.  It may take some time, but I will try and get as many TRS as I can in system.  I will definitely be using audiopile.net to purchase some cables.  I also like their snakes on a reel.  I could really use something like that for traveling.  My snake is in a tote and is a pain to get in and out.

Last night, I hooked my system up according to the diagram that Bill Schnake was so kind to send me.  I had a couple of hi-cups, but once I got up and running it sounded wonderful.  My mixer only has 1/4 insert for the aux, so I will need to purchase a patch cable from my snake C and D to change them from xlr to 1/4".  Also, I plugged my CD player into the cd/tape input via RCA, but couldn't get any sound.  I then plugged it in channel 16, via 1/4" patch cable, and it worked fine.  Additionally, I learned a lot about the crossover last night.  I learned that there is a gain on each channel of the crossover.  And I found this interesting button called "summed", which made my sub go from crappy to amazing with just the push of that button. ha.  I'm going to keep playing with this and experimenting.  Thanks for everyone's help.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on May 16, 2014, 08:19:47 AM

We thank you for trying to learn. This seems to be in short supply these days and it is nice to see someone with a desire to learn something new.

I like to do this sound thing because it is fun! Hopefully you will find the fun in it too.

Josh,

I love to learn.  And I'm having a blast with pro audio so far.  It was so frustrating when I was trying it by myself.  I was on a road trip with no map.  Now that I've found you guys on this forum, I feel so much more equipped and confident. I even feel like I can talk about live sound with other people and make sense.  I'm excited to continue learning as much as possible.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Jerome Malsack on May 16, 2014, 09:39:57 AM
The Aux 1 and 2  sends are 1/4  TS  unbalanced.  If you want to send this down a snake you should convert to balanced.
The best way is to use a line level transformer like   http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/HD400.aspx

There are other companies that make better boxes and charge more for the better Transformers and better specks. 

You will need a short line level and not speaker cable  1/4 TS to 1/4 TS.  Then you plug into Aux 1 and 2 into each input on the HD400.
The outputs from the HD400 you will use 1/4 TRS to XLR Male.  Plug XLR into snake.   The HD400 converts the unbalanced to Balanced for the long cable run to the stage and amplifier.   
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 16, 2014, 11:27:29 AM
Also, I plugged my CD player into the cd/tape input via RCA, but couldn't get any sound.  I then plugged it in channel 16, via 1/4" patch cable, and it worked fine.
Did you raise the "To Main" knob on the mixer?

to wit:



Josh,

I love to learn.  And I'm having a blast with pro audio so far.  It was so frustrating when I was trying it by myself.  I was on a road trip with no map.  Now that I've found you guys on this forum, I feel so much more equipped and confident. I even feel like I can talk about live sound with other people and make sense.  I'm excited to continue learning as much as possible.

Absolutely awesome to hear this! You're experimenting, but more importantly, when something didn't work right, you figured out how to patch around it. Being able to troubleshoot and think on your feet is an important skill to have.

-Ray
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on May 19, 2014, 08:44:55 AM
Thank you Jerome.  I found one of those on Amazon and I'm going to order it asap.

Ray:  Thanks! This is really fun.  Regarding the cd player, I think I raised the "to main" knob, but I'm not so sure that I pushed the "standby" button.  But I'll try it all again this week to make sure I'm doing it correctly.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Jerome Malsack on May 19, 2014, 12:22:25 PM
Sorry but it seems my brain was off a little the 1/4 TRS to XLRM is incorrect.  It should be XLRF.  To Send from the mixer to the Monitor Amp. 
 

Title: XLR Male = Output, Female = Input
Post by: Russ Davis on May 19, 2014, 02:59:22 PM
Sorry but it seems my brain was off a little the 1/4 TRS to XLRM is incorrect.  It should be XLRF.  To Send from the mixer to the Monitor Amp.

I believe you were correct the first time.  With very rare exceptions, if it's an output - as in this case where the signal is going into the snake and on to the amp(s) - it should be XLR-M.  The snake's return (going back to the stage) channels will have XLR-F jacks (unless the snake uses balanced ¼" TRS returns).

Reminds me of a discussion at my old day job...  Some of the engineers were offended by the whole "sexist" concept of malefemale connectors.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on May 20, 2014, 02:38:18 PM
Jerome has helped me get my monitors going.  As soon as my hum destroyer comes in, I will get those going. (mixer has unbalanced aux sends)

That leads me to another question.  Do you all recommend putting my EQ in the monitor chain, or on the mains?  If so, where does it go in the chain?  More importantly, how do I know which is the best option?

I'm willing to do some reading if anyone has any good links to info.

Thank you.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 20, 2014, 02:52:49 PM
Jerome has helped me get my monitors going.  As soon as my hum destroyer comes in, I will get those going. (mixer has unbalanced aux sends)

That leads me to another question.  Do you all recommend putting my EQ in the monitor chain, or on the mains?  If so, where does it go in the chain?  More importantly, how do I know which is the best option?

I'm willing to do some reading if anyone has any good links to info.

Thank you.

Is your graphic EQ single or 2 channel?  How many monitor sends are you using?

If you have a 2 channel EQ and only use 1 monitor send, you can use one EQ channel for mains (in mono) and the other for monitors.  If you do this, you can probably eliminate the "hum destroyer" as the EQ likely has balanced outputs.

Also, try monitors without the hum destroyer first, you may not need it.  Many "big dog" systems were driven by a well-regarded EQ's outputs... that were XLR, but unbalanced.  I can't guarantee you'll have no problems, but give it a try and see what happens; if it works in one space it may not be hum-free if you move the system to a different room, venue or location (electrical service).  This is one of those "no cost" educational exercises. :)

Congratulations on your progress so far, Isaac.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on May 28, 2014, 09:21:22 AM
Thank you, Tim.  I hadn't thought about that.  I do believe my EQ has two channels on it.  I tried the monitors with the hum destroyer and they worked great.  I couldn't even tell they were on until I played music through them.  But once I hookup the EQ, I will try it without the hum destroyer.  Maybe I can use that somewhere else.

Good news, Ray Aberle.  I tried my cd player again via the "cd player" control on my mixer and I got it to work.  I think the trick was pushing the "standby" button.  Once I did that (and made sure I had it all hooked up correctly), it worked and sounded great.  I was so excited.  We have been unable to get that going for a while now.

My next step, after hooking up the EQ, is to begin playing with all the controls on my compressor, crossover, and EQ.  I want to learn what every button does and what it's for.  I recently learned NOT to push the +10 button my crossover.  I was playing a cd through the system and I pushed that button and I thought my hearing was gone forever.  haha.  Not really, but it was a really really bad squeal sound.

After that, I'm going to plug in some instruments and begin mixing my sound.  The last time we hooked this up, we had a channel that would never fully mute.  Even if you muted it on the mixer, you could always hear it through the monitors.  I want to tackle that.

Thanks for everyone's help again.  I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 28, 2014, 10:24:45 AM
After that, I'm going to plug in some instruments and begin mixing my sound.  The last time we hooked this up, we had a channel that would never fully mute.  Even if you muted it on the mixer, you could always hear it through the monitors.  I want to tackle that.
Ahhh, sounds like the "Pre" button is pressed. From 2.1.3 of your manual:

"(10) Press the PRE switch to set all aux sends to pre-fader. In this case, the volume of the aux signals is no longer depen- dent on the fader position, so you can create completely independent monitor mixes."

When the "Pre" button is engaged on that channel strip (and they are all able to be set independently), the fader position does not affect the Aux send (i.e. what you are sending to the monitors). This is helpful if, say, you want to be able to "Talkback" to the stage, and have your "Talkback" not going into the house while people are there, but if it's engaged, you would also have this problem- the instrument/source is playing through the monitors but isn't in the house, and you feel like you can't make it shut up! :D

When the "Pre" button is disengaged (now called "Post-Fader," or "Post" for short), the levels in the monitors will be additionally controlled by the fader position. So, if fader is all the way up to normal levels, you'll have monitors rocking as well. When you pull fader down/mute, the monitors go quiet as well.

Another one of these fun things to play with! :)

Ray
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Jerome Malsack on May 28, 2014, 11:09:51 AM
My vote is to put the EQ between the hum remover that is a Transformer moving from unbalanced to balanced line level, to send down the snake for a better signal overall.   

The EQ is used to help with keeping some of the feed back problems from happening.   
Title: Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
Post by: Isaac South on June 02, 2014, 02:09:55 PM
Ray,

I tried the "pre" button this weekend.  It fixed it.  I am in shock.  I had our band over at the house on Saturday and I showed them and they couldn't believe it.  We never thought we'd be able to eliminate that problem.  Thanks so much again for your help.