ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => The Basement => Topic started by: Brandon Wright on March 03, 2013, 08:28:22 PM
-
So Behringer "broke ground" with the x32, and so far Soundcraft and Roland were quick to follow suit in the sub $3000 digital console realm. My question is, who will be next to follow suit with an amplifier that puts out 4000 watts per channel at four ohms for less than two grand to compete with the new Behringer offering?
I won't be spending my money on any of the Behringer products, but I can't say that I don't welcome their influence on market prices. ;)
-
So Behringer "broke ground" with the x32, and so far Soundcraft and Roland were quick to follow suit in the sub $3000 digital console realm. My question is, who will be next to follow suit with an amplifier that puts out 4000 watts per channel at four ohms for less than two grand to compete with the new Behringer offering?
I won't be spending my money on any of the Behringer products, but I can't say that I don't welcome their influence on market prices. ;)
Only Zoltar knows. deposit $300 and a rusty Sm57 and he will tell you.
-
Only Zoltar knows. deposit $300 and a rusty Sm57 and he will tell you.
I suppose I lead that in a different direction than I intended to. Instead of drawing a manufacturer out of a hat, I guess I was looking for speculation as to whether or not the usual players (QSC, Crest, Crown, etc....) will try to compete at this price point?
My train of thought: Harmon slashed prices on the compact/expression (to the tune of $5000) to have a hand in this market, so will we see a macrotech 12000i equivalent subjected to a similar cut to compete with the inuke offering? Or is there less to be gained in the low cost amplifier market? (e.g. People who can't afford high power amplifiers can't afford the cabinets that require them?)
-
I suppose I lead that in a different direction than I intended to. Instead of drawing a manufacturer out of a hat, I guess I was looking for speculation as to whether or not the usual players (QSC, Crest, Crown, etc....) will try to compete at this price point?
My train of thought: Harmon slashed prices on the compact/expression (to the tune of $5000) to have a hand in this market, so will we see a macrotech 12000i equivalent subjected to a similar cut to compete with the inuke offering? Or is there less to be gained in the low cost amplifier market? (e.g. People who can't afford high power amplifiers can't afford the cabinets that require them?)
I'd look for some "down-line percolation." Harmon will pimp a brand name (JBL should never have the JRX under their name), but I'm not sure they'd do $300 Crowns. Among the prosumer brands owned by Harman is Pyle. We might see "Pyle - with Crown heritage inside!" In the case of mixer competition, Harman had to do something very quickly when the X32 finally started shipping out of China. The question is, at what level do they want to play at this price point?
Neither Harmon nor Yamaha are new kids or lightweight players. It will be interesting to see what they offer up in the next 9 months. QSC? You'd have to ask Pat Quilter.
-
Still waiting on more news about the QSC digital desk that was talked about a couple of years back. (QSC and Greg Mackie collaboration if I remember correctly)
-
I won't be spending my money on any of the Behringer products, but I can't say that I don't welcome their influence on market prices. ;)
The obvious problem with this is that if enough of the market pours its dollars into the "too cheap to be reliable and serviceable" products that Behringer has championed *and* other manufacturers are forced to compete in price....... they can only do this by lowering quality (in one way or another) and we could end up with no one making real "pro" gear that is designed to deliver great performance, last many years, is supported by factory authorized service centers, etc.
Recognizing that I sound more and more like a curmudgeon..... I am not particularly thrilled to see stupid-cheap products with a whole lot of features and unsubstantiated specs but very questionable longevity.
-
I am not particularly thrilled to see stupid-cheap products with a whole lot of features and unsubstantiated specs but very questionable longevity.
+1
-
Things tend not to break during sound check but rather during the show...
-
Recognizing that I sound more and more like a curmudgeon..... I am not particularly thrilled to see stupid-cheap products with a whole lot of features and unsubstantiated specs but very questionable longevity.
Tom,
I very much agree with you on this point. But in the case of the Expression/Compact, soundcraft didn't come up with anything new. They simply took a proven product that had likely already paid for any R&D that went into it, repainted it, gave it a software update, and called it a new product at a lower price point. So, it wasn't originally built for the price point it landed in.
-
Buzz around town says QSC is bringing a new digital desk out for a run in a local venue this week.
-
I have been out of those markets for over a decade but the rules have not changed that much. In my (old) experience the market price of products depends more on the cost to build them based on feature content and technology, than it depends on arbitrary "how much can we skin the suckers for". Reducing a price to meet competition is not proof that the previous price was too high based on their cost, only that the former price was not competitive based on new market conditions. You do what you must do to move boxes, and not eat dead inventory.
Otherwise similar products from small companies cost more because it cost more for small companies to build them, and they have a smaller denominator (gross sales) to spread their fixed overhead costs across. Conversely a large company like Behringer has very low manufacturing cost and a very large denominator to spread it's overhead across.
While I give Behringer credit for pioneering that new lower price point for digital mixers (thanks to tooling their own motor-faders and perhaps other formerly expensive sub-assemblies). My suspicion is they don't actually use any unique technology that other's can't replicate. They are the first to that spot in the marketplace and have delivered in quantity so will harvest a lot of the initial demand. If they had unique technology they could have ramped up more slowly. IMO others can replicate the general approach. I will now pause for a moment of silent reflection at the though of other majors "copying" Behringer. ;D ;D ;D
While I vaguely recall Behringer buying the IP from a failing digital IC company that included some switching technology years ago, my suspicion is that the recent low cost high power amps in the market from a few companies are probably based on 3rd party technology that the 3rd party wants to sell to all comers, so prices will probably follow the typical spreads between different manufacturers that exist for current products with similar features.
Finally I like to talk about professional robustness, and other aspects people like to mislabel as quality as simply features, that more professional customers pay up for. Along similar lines, Behringer's lower market price is "feature-like" but paid for by Behringer out of their profit margin to secure market share and prevent easy competition.
I suspect the ongoing charm offensive from Behringer is an attempt to raise the brand image so they can reduce some of that need to buy market share. They are already spending more on customer service than historically (or so it appears) so they could use the extra margin to stand still.
Of course this will leave room beneath their price points for new competition, but I don't expect that to come from old established players, probably some new big dog from another category that sees "pro" audio (and I use the term "pro" loosely) as easy pickings. Consumer audio is far more competitive.
Caveat Lector, this is 100% speculation on my part and I have no inside information about current products or any of the companies discussed, other that what I see and read on public forums. YMMV
JR
-
I'd look for some "down-line percolation." Harmon will pimp a brand name (JBL should never have the JRX under their name), but I'm not sure they'd do $300 Crowns. Among the prosumer brands owned by Harman is Pyle. We might see "Pyle - with Crown heritage inside!" In the case of mixer competition, Harman had to do something very quickly when the X32 finally started shipping out of China. The question is, at what level do they want to play at this price point?
Neither Harmon nor Yamaha are new kids or lightweight players. It will be interesting to see what they offer up in the next 9 months. QSC? You'd have to ask Pat Quilter.
Tim, I don't believe Harman owns Pyle. I can't find anything on either Pyle's or Harman's website and with Harman being a publicly traded company that type of info should be readily available. Here's a link to their 2012 Shareholder report and there's definitely no Pyle listed in the portfolio of brands:
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/HAR/2406188422x0x608862/E74D5E84-D770-43E2-A74B-250942EA672C/HARMAN_RTS2012_web.pdf
You are absolutely correct in their not being lightweights, though. I'd bet their car audio division alone dwarfs all the stuff their pro guys are doing. I don't think they could ever sell enough $300.00 Crowns (XLS1000) to approach the income of their "Lifestyle" divison. :D
-
Buzz around town says QSC is bringing a new digital desk out for a run in a local venue this week.
I have heard rumors of a QSC console that integrates directly into the Qsys platform. In my eyes, this is a true "game changer". A unified system from Mixer, to DSP, to Amps, to Speakers. Harman would have something if they could pick a common transfer protocol.
-
[snip]...this is a true "game changer". A unified system from Mixer, to DSP, to Amps, to Speakers.
You mean like Meyer's LCS and now D-Mitri system?
-
You mean like Meyer's LCS and now D-Mitri system?
I did not realize Meyer made a mixing console.
Does anyone use them?
-
Of all people, it seems like Lab Gruppen is feeling the heat. It will be interesting to see if this new "game changer" is a compromise or rather a "re-packaging" for a lower price point.
-
I did not realize Meyer made a mixing console.
Does anyone use them?
LCS is mostly used on big Vegas type shows that have huge numbers of outputs and automation. It is a very complex system. Long ago Meyer made an analog console but I don't know if they were ever available in the US.
Mac
-
I did not realize Meyer made a mixing console.
Does anyone use them?
Cirque du Soliel uses (or used) at least one LCS system in Las Vegas.
-
I did not realize Meyer made a mixing console.
Does anyone use them?
In Canada; The Stratford Festival, The Shaw Festival and the Grand Theatre in London, Ontario to name three.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
-
This is less of an evolution in technology and more a cross between branding/line extension and big companies trying to get bigger by expanding into other company's markets after they hit the wall for market share expansion in their primary market.
I believe QSC was wise to expand into powered loudspeakers as a method of protecting their flanks from market dilution from powered speakers that I have been predicting for a very long time and expect to grow in utility and popularity.
Suggesting that an legacy amp company making a console is some kind of a "game changer", including big name console designer association strikes me as more fan boy love for a given brand than rational market analysis. Speaking as an ex-console designer, if they were so hot, they wouldn't be available, 8) while it is good that that the amp company in charge recognize the need for actual console specific experience.
From a technology POV, I expect, and have predicted a divergence between the control surface and brains or guts of the console, with both eventually morphing into different variant technologies. The guts IMO will end up distributed around a shared network of remaining utilitarian functional units (like powered speakers, microphones, instruments, and little else that absolutely can't be integrated into one of those two.) The control surface function will likewise end up in some game controller technology, perhaps google glasses with capability to recognize hand movements in the context of the environment ("I'm squeezing your head"), combined with smarter expert system software to anticipate and sometimes make sound system decisions for the operator, who logically could end up being one of the performers as the relative cost of human operators makes them a luxury only afforded by large shows.
Or not... the future hasn't happened yet.
JR
-
I did not realize Meyer made a mixing console.
Does anyone use them?
Meyer bought LCS some years ago, which as I understand it, started out as a playback system. They have taken it through several revisions, the latest of which is D-Mitri (http://www.meyersound.com/products/d-mitri/) which they are in the process of (slowly) rolling out. D-Mitri is a digital network based implementation of the LCS system, which used analog MIDI cables, serial cable, and analog I/O to connect all the bits and pieces. D-Mitri (as I understand it) encapsulates everything, from the mic preamps to the speaker processing systems in a single unified digital audio network, using AVB. So, basically, the only A/D, D/A conversion that is happening is at the end of the XLR cable coming out of the microphone, and at the speaker itself. They even have provision for play back and recording through their Wildtracks system, as well as control of their variable acoustics system Constellation (http://www.meyersound.com/products/constellation/). The thing about it, is that it is totally and completely modular. You can use only the pieces that you want, and add to it later if you decide that you need more.
All of the Cirque du Soleil shows in Las Vegas use either the older Matrix 3 based LCS system or the new D-Mitri system; those that still use Matrix 3/LCS will be transitioning to D-Mitri eventually (according to my sources). And I believe that most of their bigger touring shows use it as well, though I do know that some of their smaller shows use other systems, or consoles like the Vi6. And at one time, the Guthrie Theatre used LCS at least for playback. And I have seen a couple of touring Broadway shows use LCS for playback and speaker processing, though they used other consoles on which to mix the show.
People tend to think of Meyer as only a speaker company, but they have a lot more going on under the hood that they seem to be pretty shy about marketing.
Perhaps my understanding of what LCS and D-Mitri are and do is way off base. I will know more at the end of next week after I have finished the 3-day D-Mitri training session in Las Vegas...Or maybe I will be even more confused than before. ;D
Meyer Sound: LCS CueConsole (http://www.meyersound.com/pdf/products/lcs_series/CueConsole_20070918.pdf)
Here's a picture of a sample configured CueConsole:
-
Suggesting that an legacy amp company making a console is some kind of a "game changer", including big name console designer association strikes me as more fan boy love for a given brand than rational market analysis.
QSC is not my first choice ... speakers, amps, or DSP. I am however working on a project now where one DSP cost as much as a new truck, with a second as backup. These boxes already have the horsepower to support the DSP needed for a large scale mixer, as do many of the other major DSP companies out there. I don't like that my (install) customer have to access a program for the mixer (studio manager) and then another program for the DSP (London, Audia, Qsys), and another program for the amps (System Architect, Qsys, Lake). One program to unify this, without the need for third party integration such as Crestron/AMX will have a decent impact on how I design and specify equipment. It may change "my" game.
I will admit, I have had minimal exposure to the Meyer line, outside of the demo rooms at infocomm, but I am quite impressed. However, the politics of the matter prevent me from looking to much further into it.
I guess the term "game changer" for a specific product is valid depending on who you are. If a new line array helps EAW triple sales, and get back into the favor of BE's, then is that not a game changer for EAW, even if their isn't anything drastically new to the industry? Would the industry be playing the same game?
Did Gunness focusing change the game? FIR filters? The crossover? The digital console? DSP in general?
What have some of the game changers been?
-
QSC is not my first choice ... speakers, amps, or DSP. I am however working on a project now where one DSP cost as much as a new truck, with a second as backup.
While low horsepower DSP capable microprocessors can cost as little as a few dollars. The real expense is teaching them to do tricks and talking to each other has been a desirable trick for a long time. To manage a distributed system across multiple unrelated platforms with enough intelligence to re-allocate resources on the fly, is still a ways off. We'd be happy to just talk to each other and have common understood definitions for simple things like Q/bandwidth.
These boxes already have the horsepower to support the DSP needed for a large scale mixer, as do many of the other major DSP companies out there. I don't like that my (install) customer have to access a program for the mixer (studio manager) and then another program for the DSP (London, Audia, Qsys), and another program for the amps (System Architect, Qsys, Lake). One program to unify this, without the need for third party integration such as Crestron/AMX will have a decent impact on how I design and specify equipment. It may change "my" game.
It's messy when best of breed functional blocks are not rewarded for talking with other blocks. The odds of the same one company making the best of breed across the board is unlikely, but if you pay enough for one brand premium solution, they will source good performers for the rest of the chain they don't make themselves.
I will admit, I have had minimal exposure to the Meyer line, outside of the demo rooms at infocomm, but I am quite impressed. However, the politics of the matter prevent me from looking to much further into it.
Politics... don't quite understand. Meyer are well regarded but expensive (I think,, never seriously priced one).
I guess the term "game changer" for a specific product is valid depending on who you are. If a new line array helps EAW triple sales, and get back into the favor of BE's, then is that not a game changer for EAW, even if their isn't anything drastically new to the industry? Would the industry be playing the same game?
Line array technology in general is a calculable advantage for putting sound into a finite space or area. Unfortunately I am reminded of the early days of digital when the demand for anything called digital outstripped the practical reality. Yet another me too line array may be useful to flesh out a brand, not changing games except perhaps for the sales rep.
Did Gunness focusing change the game? FIR filters? The crossover? The digital console? DSP in general?
What have some of the game changers been?
I am sure opinions vary... I have seen a few.
#1 computers becoming low enough cost that individuals can afford them for work and personal business.
#2 automation in manufacturing (helped dramatically by computers) that continues to reduce costs. In combination with Moore's law that increases the power of ICs.. More of an evolution than revolutionary game changer.
#3 I may be biased by being so close to this, but the integration of computers and DSP into large sound systems has changed the game for large scale (like stadium) installs. Where there used to be rooms full of processing racks and miles of wire to connect all this rack gear together into a functional system, not to mention all the man hours of labor to wire it up together correctly. Now a rack of powerful DSP controlled by a suitable software integration replaces all that wire, labor, and racks of crude analog processing gear. You still need speakers and those speakers still need amplification so that can't be replaced with cheaper/faster computers. Some of Danley's work with big dog speakers for stadiums is borderline game changing (IMO), but I may just be a Danley fan boy.
The cost savings from replacing rooms of gear with racks has made grown men hold their nose and use a brand they wouldn't otherwise discuss in polite company. It was either spec the new way or lose the job because the old way was suddenly obsolete and too expensive by comparison.
So game changers ultimately come down to more power (processor power or sound power) , or less cost, or both. Enough different that old favorites need to be re-examined in light of the new rules.
The Behringer X-32 is arguably changing the game for entry level digital mixers (because of low price).
What changes your game may depend on what your game is.
JR
-
The true costs for any hardware, digital or analog, are the development costs, as has been pointed out already. Larger companies with diverse product offerings will usually have pieces of technology developed that can be used for more than one platform, reducing the development costs. Behringer is a company of that type, as is Harman.
The difference between the two would be the same as comparing the Ugo you bought with electric windows to a Lincoln with electric windows. Both have the same feature, but in the end you're still driving a Ugo.
-
The difference between the two would be the same as comparing the Ugo you bought with electric windows to a Lincoln with electric windows. Both have the same feature, but in the end you're still driving a Ugo.
Back in the day, a Yugo would fit in the trunk of a Lincoln. Who needs a spare tire when you have a spare car?
-
Who needs a spare tire when you have a spare car?
I think I can fit one of those dinky little Smart Cars in the back of my Tacoma :P
-
The true costs for any hardware, digital or analog, are the development costs, as has been pointed out already. Larger companies with diverse product offerings will usually have pieces of technology developed that can be used for more than one platform, reducing the development costs. Behringer is a company of that type, as is Harman.
The difference between the two would be the same as comparing the Ugo you bought with electric windows to a Lincoln with electric windows. Both have the same feature, but in the end you're still driving a Ugo.
Good shootin Tex!
-
I think I can fit one of those dinky little Smart Cars in the back of my Tacoma :P
<rant>
I don't understand the fascination with those cars... 70 horsepower?!? It only gets 34city 38hwy miles per gallon??? To drive something that small and impractical for hauling anything it'd have to get 50+ mpg. My '95 Nissan Sentra is rated at 26city and 36hwy (I get a consistant 28-31 mixed driving and around 35 on the interstate); not to mention that it's paid for. :-)
</rant>
-
I wouldn't mind having one of these, just for the lulz and ultra hate that I would get from the other tree hugging-tofu eating-hippie/yuppie Smart Car drivers.
(http://marinasleeps.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/smart-monster-car.jpg)
A few years ago when NE Oklahoma had the biggest snow storm we have ever had (dubbed Smowmagheddon) which dumped about 30 inches of snow on us in about 24 hours, I was watching TV of the City road crews plowing the freeways. Some dumb-ass yuppie in a Smart car though it would be a good idea to take his car with 3 1/2" of ground clearance and 12 inches tires out in the snow.
He somehow made it far enough to actually get on the freeway before he got stuck. Well, the local CBS affiliate had their helo up in the air covering the snow remediation efforts, and they zoomed in on this guy in the Smart car who was standing on the side of the road talking on his cell phone...when a fleet of; not one, not two, but THREE 5 tone dumptrucks with plows on the front and sanders on the back came ripping down the road right next to him and BURIED his car in freshly plowed snow.
The anchors who were yapping away live on TV were speechless. I couldn't stop laughing for DAYS afterwards. It was the funniest damn thing I have ever seen on live TV. And the TV station replayed it on their promos for months.
-
I wouldn't mind having one of these, just for the lulz and ultra hate that I would get from the other tree hugging-tofu eating-hippie/yuppie Smart Car drivers.
(http://marinasleeps.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/smart-monster-car.jpg)
I thought you'd made my day with the picture....
A few years ago when NE Oklahoma had the biggest snow storm we have ever had (dubbed Smowmagheddon) which dumped about 30 inches of snow on us in about 24 hours, I was watching TV of the City road crews plowing the freeways. Some dumb-ass yuppie in a Smart car though it would be a good idea to take his car with 3 1/2" of ground clearance and 12 inches tires out in the snow.
He somehow made it far enough to actually get on the freeway before he got stuck. Well, the local CBS affiliate had their helo up in the air covering the snow remediation efforts, and they zoomed in on this guy in the Smart car who was standing on the side of the road talking on his cell phone...when a fleet of; not one, not two, but THREE 5 tone dumptrucks with plows on the front and sanders on the back came ripping down the road right next to him and BURIED his car in freshly plowed snow.
The anchors who were yapping away live on TV were speechless. I couldn't stop laughing for DAYS afterwards. It was the funniest damn thing I have ever seen on live TV. And the TV station replayed it on their promos for months.
Then I read the rest of the post... Still rolling on the floor laughing. ;D
Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2
-
Long ago Meyer made an analog console but I don't know if they were ever available in the US.
Mac
It was made by a ATL, a Japanese company who were (I believe) the Meyer distributor there. The consoles (FOH and Stage Monitor models) were available in the US through Meyer. They had one at the Fillmore when we were there for the 5th day of SIM class in 1997.
For its time the console was very well designed, sounded great and built like a tank.
-
I think I mixed mons on one of those at a Quattro club in Japan around 95 or so?
-
It was made by a ATL, a Japanese company who were (I believe) the Meyer distributor there. The consoles (FOH and Stage Monitor models) were available in the US through Meyer. They had one at the Fillmore when we were there for the 5th day of SIM class in 1997.
For its time the console was very well designed, sounded great and built like a tank.
All of the above is correct. A few of these consoles were bought and installed in the SF Bay Area. I mixed many jazz shows on one at the "Life on the Water" Theater which was on one of the piers at Fort Mason.
It was a great sounding and well built console but NOT priced to compete with other desks of it's size. And for those who could afford it the Gamble boards had more inputs and aux sends so they became the "natural match" for big Meyer systems in the USA.