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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: thompson.sam on January 29, 2014, 11:56:10 AM

Title: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: thompson.sam on January 29, 2014, 11:56:10 AM
Have been asked to quote our new stage monitors to a conventional/conservative style of church.

They need monitors desperately but refuse to use a standard stage monitor/ floor wedge due to it's "hideous look on stage". They've asked for something very low profile and slim. And an option to integrate it into a recessed design concept. My father is a fabricator and said he'd create something that we could easily mount a slim speaker to that could be kept or flipped down when not in use and then flipped up when in use.

I've looked a lot at JBL line array speakers because they're very slim in design. However once flipped on their side, they'll lose their horizontal dispersion to cover a nice vicinity of the stage on either side of their podium.

Do you know of a good, slim (sound bar style) speaker that has good horizontal dispersion when on it's side, and adequate power rating for live performance use? 
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Jeff Carter on January 29, 2014, 12:27:36 PM
I'd be tempted to think about sidefills (which could be a little easier to hide) or even in-ear monitors rather than floor wedges in that kind of scenario.
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 29, 2014, 12:54:49 PM
Have been asked to quote our new stage monitors to a conventional/conservative style of church.

They need monitors desperately but refuse to use a standard stage monitor/ floor wedge due to it's "hideous look on stage". They've asked for something very low profile and slim. And an option to integrate it into a recessed design concept. My father is a fabricator and said he'd create something that we could easily mount a slim speaker to that could be kept or flipped down when not in use and then flipped up when in use.

I've looked a lot at JBL line array speakers because they're very slim in design. However once flipped on their side, they'll lose their horizontal dispersion to cover a nice vicinity of the stage on either side of their podium.

Do you know of a good, slim (sound bar style) speaker that has good horizontal dispersion when on it's side, and adequate power rating for live performance use?

If you make the recess large enough to let out a usable amount of sound, you'll be left with a fairly large set of holes in the floor...enough for someone to step in and take a tumble.  If the in-floor monitor pop up half way, they're still ugly lumps.  AND any such installed monitors will have fixed, inflexible coverage to go along with the sonic anomalies attending.

Side-wash for vocals can indeed be nice and unobtrusive.  Otherwise, IEM's or Micro-wedges. 
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Tom Young on January 29, 2014, 04:49:01 PM
Stage monitors built into stages are a potential engineering nightmare. If they are completely recessed (or flush) they must be firing at an angle (towards the listeners) and this means there is a cavity plus various chamber members that reflect the sound. There goes your pristine frequency response.

They also require thick perforated steel grills that are walkable. In order to be as acoustically transparent as possible the holes will be 1/4"-3/8" and these are risky with women in high heels. An they tend to collect dirt, dust and chemical cleaners used when shampooing the stage carpet. And, of course, once you commit to these the seats cannot be moved.

You are correct that a line array (column speaker) will not work well in the rotating, flush mount configuration. But something like a Meyer UPM-1P (or 2P), EAW JF80, EV Xi1082 would probably work well in this application. You will still have a small cavity which will exhibit some suck-out but probably not a huge amount.
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Jonathan Kok on January 29, 2014, 05:02:12 PM
Have been asked to quote our new stage monitors to a conventional/conservative style of church.

They need monitors desperately but refuse to use a standard stage monitor/ floor wedge due to it's "hideous look on stage". They've asked for something very low profile and slim. And an option to integrate it into a recessed design concept. My father is a fabricator and said he'd create something that we could easily mount a slim speaker to that could be kept or flipped down when not in use and then flipped up when in use.

I've looked a lot at JBL line array speakers because they're very slim in design. However once flipped on their side, they'll lose their horizontal dispersion to cover a nice vicinity of the stage on either side of their podium.

Do you know of a good, slim (sound bar style) speaker that has good horizontal dispersion when on it's side, and adequate power rating for live performance use?
I seem to remember seeing a post in the past of someone having used a column array as a subtle stage lip fill speaker. I believe they used K-Array's, possibly the KK52? It has a selectable 10 or 60deg vertical dispersion.
http://www.k-array.com/en/professional-sound/installation/install-speakers/kk52.html
Of course, all other caveats mentioned above still play a factor.
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 29, 2014, 05:19:16 PM
I seem to remember seeing a post in the past of someone having used a column array as a subtle stage lip fill speaker. I believe they used K-Array's, possibly the KK52? It has a selectable 10 or 60deg vertical dispersion.

Which in the OP's case would translate to horizontal...

Meanwhile, the 120 or 150 degree (whichever it is) would be reflecting off the floor and the ceiling.

Wronger you could not be.

Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Jonathan Kok on January 29, 2014, 05:20:42 PM
Which in the OP's case would translate to horizontal...

Meanwhile, the 120 or 150 degree (whichever it is) would be reflecting off the floor and the ceiling.

Wronger you could not be.
Um..
110x10, or 110x60.
At least, that's my understanding of the spec's. Hard to figure out which orientation is which...
;)
Alternatively, KP52, 90x10 or 90x45. Again, hard to figure out which way's which.

EDIT: found it in the manual. I mistakenly assumed it was intended as a horizontal array (kinda how the picture on the website shows). But you're correct, it's a vertical array. So 110 vertical and 60 horizontal (or 90x45). Not unreasonable as a monitor. Ideal? No.
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Cailen Waddell on January 29, 2014, 06:47:54 PM
Danley SH mini or SH micro.  Whichever one is the 8" coax.... That's pretty small and could be relatively unobtrusive even if it popped up a couple inches.  This is assuming reasonable monitor levels are expected from it.
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 31, 2014, 09:12:19 AM
They have three choices

1  Look good.
2. Sound good.
3  Use In ear Monitors.
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Scott Jordan on January 31, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
Have been asked to quote our new stage monitors to a conventional/conservative style of church.

They need monitors desperately but refuse to use a standard stage monitor/ floor wedge due to it's "hideous look on stage". They've asked for something very low profile and slim. And an option to integrate it into a recessed design concept. My father is a fabricator and said he'd create something that we could easily mount a slim speaker to that could be kept or flipped down when not in use and then flipped up when in use.

I've looked a lot at JBL line array speakers because they're very slim in design. However once flipped on their side, they'll lose their horizontal dispersion to cover a nice vicinity of the stage on either side of their podium.

Do you know of a good, slim (sound bar style) speaker that has good horizontal dispersion when on it's side, and adequate power rating for live performance use?

Take a look at this offering from K-Array: http://www.k-array.com/en/professional-sound/portable/portable-monitors/krm33.html

10.5"x12", 4" tall, available in powered and unpowered. The nice thing with this monitor is that you can switch it between spot (30 degree horizontal, so covers right in front of it) or floor (90 degree horizontal, for wider areas). Vertical dispersion out is 90 degrees. Saw and experienced this at InfoCOMM last year, def had the output abilities, very small footprint, sounded fantastic. Street price on these is approx. $1500 for the powered, $760 for the passive version, a dealer would probably have their price they sell these at.
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Benjamin Gingerich on January 31, 2014, 02:39:31 PM
Have been asked to quote our new stage monitors to a conventional/conservative style of church.

They need monitors desperately but refuse to use a standard stage monitor/ floor wedge due to it's "hideous look on stage". They've asked for something very low profile and slim. And an option to integrate it into a recessed design concept. My father is a fabricator and said he'd create something that we could easily mount a slim speaker to that could be kept or flipped down when not in use and then flipped up when in use.


Is flying the monitors an option? If so then you could keep them off the stage, have a defined coverage area weather you want 1 speaker to cover each small area of the stage or 1 speaker to cover the whole stage.

Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Ben Brunskill on February 02, 2014, 12:19:41 AM
I’d demo a few boxes and let them listen. A nice compact stage mon is going to sound vastly better than some rigged up line array half buried in the stage. The EAW microwedge and Danley LPSM? are both nice low profile boxes.

You could also look at IEM’s where ever possible and only a couple of wedges
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Michael Elphinstone on February 02, 2014, 07:05:30 PM
I’d demo a few boxes and let them listen. A nice compact stage mon is going to sound vastly better than some rigged up line array half buried in the stage. The EAW microwedge and Danley LPSM? are both nice low profile boxes.

You could also look at IEM’s where ever possible and only a couple of wedges

+1

Microwedges sound great and are very small too. Unfortunately they're too expensive in Australia for me though.

If they don't want any boxes on stage, go IEMs. This will require more effort on their part to make the transition.
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: jason misterka on February 02, 2014, 07:10:18 PM
Have been asked to quote our new stage monitors to a conventional/conservative style of church.

They need monitors desperately but refuse to use a standard stage monitor/ floor wedge due to it's "hideous look on stage". They've asked for something very low profile and slim. And an option to integrate it into a recessed design concept. My father is a fabricator and said he'd create something that we could easily mount a slim speaker to that could be kept or flipped down when not in use and then flipped up when in use.

I've looked a lot at JBL line array speakers because they're very slim in design. However once flipped on their side, they'll lose their horizontal dispersion to cover a nice vicinity of the stage on either side of their podium.

Do you know of a good, slim (sound bar style) speaker that has good horizontal dispersion when on it's side, and adequate power rating for live performance use?

These may not work for you but I have had some success with QSC 2x8" speakers.  We mount them to a wall as sidefills or hang them but you could perhaps integrate them into the stage.

Microwedges are fantastic but are expensive. Depends on your budget.

Jason

Edit: I noticed QSC did add a bunch of new speaker models to their website.  The model I am referring  to and have installed in three or four places is the QSC AD-S282H.  Low profile when on its side, and a rotatable HF.


Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Tom Young on February 04, 2014, 05:31:04 PM
Sam-

You might also think about low-profile, small footprint wedges that may not visually upset the powers-that-be. A great wedge that would fit the bill is the Fulcrum Acoustic FX896, shown here:

fulcrum-acoustic.com/products/tq-install.html#FX_Series

How much would a custom (furniture) finish help ?
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 04, 2014, 05:59:16 PM
Sam-

You might also think about low-profile, small footprint wedges that may not visually upset the powers-that-be. A great wedge that would fit the bill is the Fulcrum Acoustic FX896, shown here:

fulcrum-acoustic.com/products/tq-install.html#FX_Series

How much would a custom (furniture) finish help ?

Flower arrangements in front of each wedge....
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Tom Young on February 04, 2014, 09:21:21 PM
Flower arrangements in front of each wedge....

Whatever floats "their" boat.....and does not mess up the sound  ;-)
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Matthew Donadio on February 06, 2014, 06:16:21 PM
You might also think about low-profile, small footprint wedges that may not visually upset the powers-that-be. A great wedge that would fit the bill is the Fulcrum Acoustic FX896, shown here:

fulcrum-acoustic.com/products/tq-install.html#FX_Series

Don't want to derail things, but we got rid of our wedges for hotspots before I came on board, and I sob softly every time I have to do a bigger concert.  How do these, and other low-profile / small footprint, monitors sound off-axis?
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Tom Young on February 07, 2014, 08:03:22 AM
Don't want to derail things, but we got rid of our wedges for hotspots before I came on board, and I sob softly every time I have to do a bigger concert.  How do these, and other low-profile / small footprint, monitors sound off-axis?

What do you mean by "off axis" ?

Well-designed full-range speakers should sound fine when listened to off axis but within the coverage limits of the speaker. The loudspeakers I have recommended here do the job quite well.

Hotspots, defined as a very small spot monitor with dual full-range cone drivers driven with the same signal, are fairly well-known for lousy (ragged) response that changes significantly across the coverage area. They cannot help but behave badly due to the inherent combfiltering from the 2 drivers.
Title: Re: Slim Stage Monitor Ideas?
Post by: Matthew Donadio on February 08, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
What do you mean by "off axis" ?

Thanks Tom.  By "off axis" I meant within the normal coverage pattern, just not with the thing pointed directly at the musician's head.  I wasn't sure if the slimmer cabinet affected this at all.