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Title: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 13, 2014, 05:34:03 pm
I just downloaded the newest firmware 2.02 for my X32 and there is a lot to like about it... Most noticeably, an RTA which can be patched to any channel or bus... and can be overlaid on the graphic EQ screen so you see the affect of your adjustment as you're doing it.

I've noticed one glitch.. When I save a new scene, it re-sets my network settings to "0" and I have to start over.   I've never had that issue before.

Anyone else?????????
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 13, 2014, 09:59:59 pm
I just downloaded the newest firmware 2.02 for my X32 and there is a lot to like about it... Most noticeably, an RTA which can be patched to any channel or bus... and can be overlaid on the graphic EQ screen so you see the affect of your adjustment as you're doing it.

I've noticed one glitch.. When I save a new scene, it re-sets my network settings to "0" and I have to start over.   I've never had that issue before.

Anyone else?????????

I have that issue as well and a bigger one yet.  If you are on any scene and power cycle the desk it always go's back to scene 00.  This would be a major issue during a show especially if you didn't save before a power loss you will lose everything.  I hope this is not their intention.  I'm going back to 1.15 for now.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 13, 2014, 10:19:39 pm
I have that issue as well and a bigger one yet.  If you are on any scene and power cycle the desk it always go's back to scene 00.  This would be a major issue during a show especially if you didn't save before a power loss you will lose everything.  I hope this is not their intention.  I'm going back to 1.15 for now.

Just found out that the problem go's away if you hold home for 3 seconds which locks the console and puts it in a state that is safe to shutdown before you power cycle it.  This is still a issue if you get a unexpected power cycle.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 13, 2014, 11:45:39 pm
Just found out that the problem go's away if you hold home for 3 seconds which locks the console and puts it in a state that is safe to shutdown before you power cycle it.  This is still a issue if you get a unexpected power cycle.

Here is the real kicker.  I reverted back to 1.15 and it does it with 1.15 now.  It didn't do it before I did the 2.02 upgrade.  I can confirm that because I have other console that didn't get the upgrade yet and they stay at the state they where power cycled at regardless of saving or a safe shutdown.

Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on March 14, 2014, 04:58:19 am
I'm unable to replicate the ip-address reset.

However, the issue with the scene recall is that it will only save an automatic snapshot every minute or so (the console has always behaved like that).

This means that if your poweron snapshot is based on scene10 and you load scene15 the console won't save your snapshot in up to one minute.

It would probably be nice that a snapshot is saved anytime a scene/cue/snippet is recalled.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Per Sovik on March 14, 2014, 05:32:03 am
I have that issue as well and a bigger one yet.  If you are on any scene and power cycle the desk it always go's back to scene 00.  This would be a major issue during a show especially if you didn't save before a power loss you will lose everything.  I hope this is not their intention.  I'm going back to 1.15 for now.

That could be intentional, because one of the things we have asked for is for the console to load a default scene if present.

EDIT: According to John DiNicola, there is no automatic load of scene 0 on power-up
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Benjamin Gingerich on March 14, 2014, 07:39:59 am
With x32 edit if you dont sync the console it will work, but no building scenes before a show. With the "MixStation" app i had to disable loading data to get it to work. I was never able to get the Ipad app to work, but my wifes iphone would connect.

A few things I noticed was when I updated the scene from 1.15 into 2.2, any linked channels were no longer linked. Delay to a bus was turned off (but still had the correct settings) and my assignable buttons were gone, as well as my FX rack was reset. Also my ip address and router/gateway settings were all zero's all the way across (as already mentioned). Also I never found the new 4 tap delay there were talking about.

Has anyone else asked how having an RTA on every channel is going to help you? Maybe the spectrograph in some situations? I just don't see the benefits.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Corey Scogin on March 14, 2014, 12:28:01 pm
I loaded the 2.02 firmware last night and tried to replicate the power cycle scene reset and the IP address reset on scene saving but neither problem showed up on my console.  As far as I could tell, no settings like channel linking were changed when updating the firmware.  The same scene loaded after the update and I didn't notice any changes but I didn't try digging into everything to verify.

Edit for clarity: I updated from 2.00 or 2.01, not from 1.15.  I had previously updated from 1.15 and all settings were overwritten as warned in the release notes for the 2.xx Beta firmware.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: John DiNicola on March 14, 2014, 01:28:31 pm
Dear James,
We are not able to replicate the Network settings issue, however it is true that these settings are reset during the update process from 1.15 to 2.02.

Dear Brian,
We were not able to duplicate a return to scene 0 by power cycling the desk.
As Robert indicates, if you do not perform a “Safe Shutdown”, you may lose any changes made within the last minute or so. To perform a “Safe Shutdown” in version 2.02, lock the console by pressing and holding the HOME button.

Dear Benjamin,
The 4-Tap delay is called the “Rhythm Delay” in the effects section. Regarding the RTA on every channel, having the option to set the RTA to pre/post EQ can be a great way to visualize the changes that you are making. If you do not wish to see this overlay, you can turn it off on the RTA page of the meters section.

As you mentioned, there are some parameters that are reset when updating to Firmware 2.0. We recommend that you backup your complete show before updating, and restore after complete.

Please let me know if I can answer anymore questions regarding the Version 2.0 update. Hope you are enjoying all of the exciting new features that the update provides!

Best Regards,
John DiNicola
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Craig Hamilton on March 14, 2014, 01:34:45 pm
Dear James,
We are not able to replicate the Network settings issue, however it is true that these settings are reset during the update process from 1.15 to 2.02.

Dear Brian,
We were not able to duplicate a return to scene 0 by power cycling the desk.
As Robert indicates, if you do not perform a “Safe Shutdown”, you may lose any changes made within the last minute or so. To perform a “Safe Shutdown” in version 2.02, lock the console by pressing and holding the HOME button.

Dear Benjamin,
The 4-Tap delay is called the “Rhythm Delay” in the effects section. Regarding the RTA on every channel, having the option to set the RTA to pre/post EQ can be a great way to visualize the changes that you are making. If you do not wish to see this overlay, you can turn it off on the RTA page of the meters section.

As you mentioned, there are some parameters that are reset when updating to Firmware 2.0. We recommend that you backup your complete show before updating, and restore after complete.

Please let me know if I can answer anymore questions regarding the Version 2.0 update. Hope you are enjoying all of the exciting new features that the update provides!

Best Regards,
John DiNicola
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
Is the Ipad app fully compatible with 2.02 or are we waiting for an updated app?
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on March 14, 2014, 02:45:11 pm
Is the Ipad app fully compatible with 2.02 or are we waiting for an updated app?
We are waiting for an updated app. There was an announcement that they are in final testing and will release it very soon...
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 14, 2014, 02:50:07 pm
Dear James,
We are not able to replicate the Network settings issue, however it is true that these settings are reset during the update process from 1.15 to 2.02.

John,

Thanks for your reply.

When I was attempting to sync the console with my iPad in the manner that I've always done it, I had trouble getting it to connect.     Am I missing something in the connection process, or do I need to wait for an iPad update before it will work with 2.02?
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 14, 2014, 02:54:23 pm
Has anyone else asked how having an RTA on every channel is going to help you? Maybe the spectrograph in some situations? I just don't see the benefits.

Having RTA on the monitor sends and main will identify specific frequencies that need to be cut when ringing out your system.  And for those who use wireless earsets and lavs, it will be useful to have that RTA helping ring out a particular mic, rather than the whole monitor send or main.

I know there are those who have trained themselves to do this by ear alone, but most of us will appreciate the additional help.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: John DiNicola on March 14, 2014, 03:03:33 pm
Dear James,
You will need to reenter your network settings on the X32 after the update. Also, the current version of the iPad app is not compatible with 2.0 and will not allow you to connect. We plan to have the compatible iPad app online over the coming days after testing is complete.

Best,
John DiNicola
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 14, 2014, 03:11:56 pm
Dear James,
You will need to reenter your network settings on the X32 after the update. Also, the current version of the iPad app is not compatible with 2.0 and will not allow you to connect. We plan to have the compatible iPad app online over the coming days after testing is complete.

Thanks, that clears it up.. after re-setting the network info, I still couldn't connect.   Looking forward to the app.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 14, 2014, 04:49:37 pm
Okay I talked with Zach at Behringer tech support this morning and he was able to replicate the scene 00 issue on the first try.  BUT we did find that if you wait 2 minutes for the desk to auto save the problem go's away.  The weird thing is if you save the scene yourself and then shutdown the desk before the 2 minute mark it still reverts back to 00 scene.  So I guess this is only a issue if you loss power in the first 2 minutes of boot up.  We also noticed that the scene names are not shown on the top of the screen like they did in 1.15.  Also we noticed that after a auto save and a power cycle that if you go back to the scene screen the 00 scene is highlighted but is not recalled. 

My personal opinion is that the 00 scene is stupid just like it is on the Midas Pro Series.  Who wants to wipe the desk with a scene you cant overwrite?  If you wanted a blank scene then make your own and save it in the first slot.  Give us the option.  Thank god you don't have store a snapshot in each scene for it save the scene like the Pro Series desk's that is just F**cking stupid!!!!

Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 14, 2014, 04:57:57 pm
[quote
Dear Brian,
We were not able to duplicate a return to scene 0 by power cycling the desk.
As Robert indicates, if you do not perform a “Safe Shutdown”, you may lose any changes made within the last minute or so. To perform a “Safe Shutdown” in version 2.02, lock the console by pressing and holding the HOME button.


Best Regards,
John DiNicola
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
[/quote]

John you better talk with Zach in tech support in Las Vegas he confirmed that it does do it every time as long as you don't give the desk time to auto save.  Locking the console for a safe shutdown does solve the issue but what happens in the event of a power loss at the venue before the auto save feature kicks in?  I can do alot of mixing in 2 minutes.  I think the auto save feature should save every 30 seconds or less.  Like I indicated in my earlier post if I save the scene myself before the auto save feature kicks in and the desk gets power cycled it still goes back to scene 00.  Yes my changes where saved but after the power cycle I still have to go back and find my scene and load it up which is ok.   So that tells me the desk knows the difference between auto save and human saving.  Just my 2 cents...
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 14, 2014, 05:09:18 pm
My personal opinion is that the 00 scene is stupid just like it is on the Midas Pro Series.  Who wants to wipe the desk with a scene you cant overwrite?  If you wanted a blank scene then make your own and save it in the first slot.  Give us the option.  Thank god you don't have store a snapshot in each scene for it save the scene like the Pro Series desk's that is just F**cking stupid!!!!

Who is Brian Wynn and why is he so pissed off about a fairly trivial issue?
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 14, 2014, 05:18:24 pm
Who is Brian Wynn and why is he so pissed off about a fairly trivial issue?

It's only trivial until it happens in the middle of a gig and screws up a bad situation more.

Having the console power down and up will be bad enough, but then having to find where you were rather than it coming back where it was is going in the wrong direction from where 1.15 has been for the last 9 months or so.

Brian is anticipating the worst and trying to plan for that, which is what I do and IMHO what everyone in our position should be doing, too.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Robert Piascik on March 14, 2014, 06:34:35 pm
We are waiting for an updated app. There was an announcement that they are in final testing and will release it very soon...

I updated my X-32R today only to find that the iPad app 2.1.3 is not compatible. The Behringer website shows 2.1.4 as the latest version but when you click on it it takes you to iTunes where you can only download 2.1.3! So in order to do my show tomorrow (mixing from iPad) I had to re-install 1.15. That's pretty irritating.

Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 14, 2014, 07:58:47 pm
It's only trivial until it happens in the middle of a gig and screws up a bad situation more.

Having the console power down and up will be bad enough, but then having to find where you were rather than it coming back where it was is going in the wrong direction from where 1.15 has been for the last 9 months or so.

Brian is anticipating the worst and trying to plan for that, which is what I do and IMHO what everyone in our position should be doing, too.

The above being said, I played hooky from taxes and loaded 2.02 into a console.

EDIT:  This following part is wrong.

The console does indeed go to Scene 00 when restarting IF the last scene loaded was less than a couple minutes ago. However, it seems possible to load your own scene into 00, although all the safes appear to be disabled. Not sure of the why to that, but there it is. So you don't have to start with a blank scene if this scenario occurs, you can have it start in a relevant scene.

I didn't try a console with 1.15 to see what happens if you restart less than a couple minutes after you loaded your last scene; my guess is that since 1.15 didn't have a scene 00, it went to its state when it turned off, or at worst its state at the last auto-save (at most 2 minutes ago). I agree with Brian that this is better, if true.


My apologies for adding noise to this discussion. The console does not go to 00, it goes to the previous scene before the last scene loaded before power went off, as long as that previous scene stayed loaded for more than a couple of minutes. My methodology for knowing which scene was which was faulty.

However, there is no indicator to know which scene you are in when the console comes back on, and 00 is showing with a grey highlight. There is no scene with the yellow orange highlight which is the only indicator of the active scene.

/edit

I also fired up an iPad, and it seemed to work perfectly. My iPads are on 2.1.2 because I saw people mentioning here or in the other thread that the new -Mix didn't work so well with Firmware 2.01. Not sure why the old version works fine and the new one doesn't, but there you go.

So with ignorance being bliss, I'm quite happy with the state of my iPads and 2.02, while feeling sorry for those who updated and now problems. As has been stated elsewhere, the new version was sent to Apple and should be coming out any day, and hopefully that will fix your problems.

Not in time for tonight's show, though, Robert. :'(
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 14, 2014, 08:57:07 pm
Who is Brian Wynn and why is he so pissed off about a fairly trivial issue?


Haha!!!
Trivial well obviously it's common place for your pa to shutdown during a show if this is so trivial to you. Your just mad that I high-jacked your thread with a real issue not user error.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim Tyler on March 14, 2014, 10:47:58 pm

Haha!!!
Trivial well obviously it's common place for your pa to shutdown during a show if this is so trivial to you. Your just mad that I high-jacked your thread with a real issue not user error.

Good, now you know.

Buy a UPS, cheapskate.

-Tim T ;)
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Bill Schnake on March 14, 2014, 11:10:38 pm

Haha!!!
Trivial well obviously it's common place for your pa to shutdown during a show if this is so trivial to you. Your just mad that I high-jacked your thread with a real issue not user error.

Brian, I don't really want to be in the middle of this, but you are way out of line.  I've been doing sound since 1978.  In all of that time I have only ever had two times when we lost power to the PA.  Both happened to be while I was using a digital board.  In both cases I had a UPS, Tripp-Lite, on the board, as I do with all of my digital boards, this gave me about 15 minutes to save my current patch and shut the mixer down gracefully.  So you saying to another user on this Forum that 'obviously it's common place for your pa to shutdown during a show' is a little on the ridiculous side of things.

Relax and don't get so damn angry about things...you'll live longer.  I thought that the idea here was to respectful share our experiences and thoughts...maybe I'm wrong.

Bill
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 14, 2014, 11:50:38 pm

Haha!!!
Trivial well obviously it's common place for your pa to shutdown during a show if this is so trivial to you. Your just mad that I high-jacked your thread with a real issue not user error.

It had not occurred to me that the thread had been "high-jacked".  That you believe you have accomplished that goal might indicate that you are bringing a bit too much attitude to the discussion
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Per Sovik on March 15, 2014, 12:50:43 am
The above being said, I played hooky from taxes and loaded 2.02 into a console.

The console does indeed go to Scene 00 when restarting IF the last scene loaded was less than a couple minutes ago. However, it seems possible to load your own scene into 00, although all the safes appear to be disabled. Not sure of the why to that, but there it is. So you don't have to start with a blank scene if this scenario occurs, you can have it start in a relevant scene.

We have been requesting a couple of things, one is to be able to load the first scene of a show completely even when global safes are set. The obvious reason for this is that you want to start off from a defined state. The other request, which might also be covered by this, is to be able to have a default power up scene, a must in fixed installations.
I don't know how much of this has been attempted to be addressed with the new update, how exactly it might be implemented etc. and as usual Behringer are not very good with documenting the updates, each update is as a rule described with a one-liner where some more detail is warranted.

I understand the "What if the console power-cycles in the middle of a show?" argument that someone brought up, but as a whole I would rather have the ability to power up in a known, well defined state than having the ability to recover a unsaved setting.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 15, 2014, 01:34:08 am
We have been requesting a couple of things, one is to be able to load the first scene of a show completely even when global safes are set. The obvious reason for this is that you want to start off from a defined state. The other request, which might also be covered by this, is to be able to have a default power up scene, a must in fixed installations.
I don't know how much of this has been attempted to be addressed with the new update, how exactly it might be implemented etc. and as usual Behringer are not very good with documenting the updates, each update is as a rule described with a one-liner where some more detail is warranted.

I understand the "What if the console power-cycles in the middle of a show?" argument that someone brought up, but as a whole I would rather have the ability to power up in a known, well defined state than having the ability to recover a unsaved setting.

Thanks, Per. I guess this makes sense for a console that all people are expecting will fit all their needs perfectly.

I have a default defined console state that I call "Clean Console" and keep on multiple USB sticks. All scenes are derived from that.

But for an installed console with a variety of users, and especially some marginal users, it makes sense to have a scene 0 for that, I guess.

However, I can easily imagine a scenario where it bites a power user in the ass, but how many power users are there for this console compared to the others? And given that there is only one specific circumstance in which it would be a problem, and that circumstance will be almost perfectly eliminated with a UPS....

OK, I'm sold on it being maybe an improvement, and look forward to hearing stories where that is demonstrated, along with a lack of stories where someone's ass was bitten.

EDIT: Upon a little further thought, how is this different than having a baseline scene loaded somewhere in the library? Is Scene 0 somehow unmodifiable, or does it stay present through the loading of a new Show?

Given that the console will start up in the last scene and state in which it was left for more than a couple minutes, it's not clear how this is an improvement, absent a "yes" answer to both of those questions.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 15, 2014, 03:07:59 am
We have been requesting a couple of things, one is to be able to load the first scene of a show completely even when global safes are set. The obvious reason for this is that you want to start off from a defined state. The other request, which might also be covered by this, is to be able to have a default power up scene, a must in fixed installations.
I don't know how much of this has been attempted to be addressed with the new update, how exactly it might be implemented etc. and as usual Behringer are not very good with documenting the updates, each update is as a rule described with a one-liner where some more detail is warranted.

I understand the "What if the console power-cycles in the middle of a show?" argument that someone brought up, but as a whole I would rather have the ability to power up in a known, well defined state than having the ability to recover a unsaved setting.

I want the console to return to the state it was in when the power went off.  Yamaha can do this, Avid can do this, Digico can do this, Midas can do this, Roland can do this, Allen-Heath can do this.  I'm sure I left someone out....

If a console were to be locked for an install (like the LS/9 excels at), I can see a power down/restore default scene to prevent circumvention of console permissions.  For the work our company does and for the gigs I personally mix or SE, I want Mr. Mixer to be right back where we were.

YMMV, etc.
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Per Sovik on March 15, 2014, 03:44:31 am
I have to get to the console with 2.02 to figure this out of course, because it definitely is undocumented at the moment. For some reason I have crossed the default scene auto load off my list as already being implemented, and obviously now also the scene 0 complete load irrespective of global safes.
The idea and request was to have a scene that would be auto loaded if present, so by not having a scene in that position or with that name, the auto load will not happen and asses should be safe.
I won't speculate anymore until I've looked properly into it.
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 15, 2014, 04:33:57 am
I have to get to the console with 2.02 to figure this out of course, because it definitely is undocumented at the moment. For some reason I have crossed the default scene auto load off my list as already being implemented, and obviously now also the scene 0 complete load irrespective of global safes.
The idea and request was to have a scene that would be auto loaded if present, so by not having a scene in that position or with that name, the auto load will not happen and asses should be safe.
I won't speculate anymore until I've looked properly into it.

See my correction above. Scene 00 does not autoload upon restart unless it was the last state autosaved. I think my questions to you are still valid, though.
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Per Sovik on March 15, 2014, 04:58:56 am
See my correction above. Scene 00 does not autoload upon restart unless it was the last state autosaved. I think my questions to you are still valid, though.

OK, that one laid to rest then.

As for what has been requested, by having a scene autoload if and only if present (yes, I know you can't load a scene that isn't there  ;D ) one can ensure that an install console always powers up the same way, even if someone have played around and got lost. Such a autoload will not be a hindrance to experienced users, that can easily save whatever they are working on in a scene. Relying on autosaved states being retained is a stupid practice that will bite you in the ass at some point, so just get used to saving properly and avoid issues.
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 15, 2014, 10:25:40 am
I'm not mad at anyone. I was simply firing back after being fired at.
It's to bad you can't show sarcasm very well in print.

Anyway my point was to bring this issue to light so that it can be corrected on the next update. And yes before you say it's a non issue Behringer has confirmed that it does not function as intended at this point.

I also feel it's my job to find any bugs or issues with system and report back to the mother ship.  Just as I did with the x32 esd problem that I found and corrected. Your welcome.

And to James you fired at me with a rubber band gun so I fired back with a cannon I'm sorry for that.

No way am I angry with Behringer over this issue or any. Let's face it in my opinion they are the fasteest of any of the companies to do updates, fixes and to introduce new products.
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Per Sovik on March 16, 2014, 01:00:45 am
Anyway my point was to bring this issue to light so that it can be corrected on the next update. And yes before you say it's a non issue Behringer has confirmed that it does not function as intended at this point.

What is it that doesn't work as intended?
- That it returns to the saved scene if there has been changes after the last auto-save?
- That it doesn't indicate what scene has been loaded?

What were Behringers stated intentions?

I'm asking because it isn't clear to me, it's not rhetorical.
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 16, 2014, 05:12:30 am
What is it that doesn't work as intended?
- That it returns to the saved scene if there has been changes after the last auto-save?
- That it doesn't indicate what scene has been loaded?

What were Behringers stated intentions?

I'm asking because it isn't clear to me, it's not rhetorical.

The name not appearing at the top of the screen and the fact that when the desk gets power cycled the cursor moves to the scene 00 in the list.  It was also said that maybe the auto save feature should save sooner than 2 minutes.
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Per Sovik on March 16, 2014, 03:28:39 pm
The name not appearing at the top of the screen and the fact that when the desk gets power cycled the cursor moves to the scene 00 in the list.  It was also said that maybe the auto save feature should save sooner than 2 minutes.

OK, got it. The first one is obviously a flaw if not a bug.

The second one I'm not totally convinced about as one should always save what one wants to keep, so there should be no need to make the autosave more frequent and thus encouraging bad habits.
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Mac Kerr on March 16, 2014, 03:54:15 pm
OK, got it. The first one is obviously a flaw if not a bug.

The second one I'm not totally convinced about as one should always save what one wants to keep, so there should be no need to make the autosave more frequent and thus encouraging bad habits.

The console shouldn't have to return to a saved scene. It should return to the last state it was in whether saved or not, every other console does.

Mac
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 16, 2014, 04:16:54 pm
OK, got it. The first one is obviously a flaw if not a bug.

The second one I'm not totally convinced about as one should always save what one wants to keep, so there should be no need to make the autosave more frequent and thus encouraging bad habits.

I don't know how often Yamaha mixers update anything but I know if power drops and the console reboots, it will come up in the exact state it was in.  The.  Exact.  State.

Avid Venue systems do the same, but I have more insight into how Venue works inside...  Venue writes a status file at intervals when the desk is idle or in normal fader-pushing/knob-turning operation.  It writes a new status file before saving or recalling snapshots, changing mute group/DCA/patching assignments, etc.  It writes a new status file before loading a new show file.  This has saved my ass... At any rate, the current control states are buffered and that buffer memory is stored on HD, too.  A reboot will take you right back where you were.

As I posted before, that's the way I want our consoles to respond, but there are certainly reasons to have different restore defaults.
Title: Re: Scene 00
Post by: Keith Broughton on March 17, 2014, 07:16:37 am
The console shouldn't have to return to a saved scene. It should return to the last state it was in whether saved or not, every other console does.

Mac
Mac, and others, make a good point.
Yes, a UPS "should" be in use but that may not be the case.
Just return to previous state. Not a big ask by any means.
This, and other issues, is why I'm not jumping on the firmware update just yet.
Title: Upgrading from 1.15 -> 2.x
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 17, 2014, 12:43:23 pm
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this but...

When I upgrade from 1.15 to 2.x will I have to "rebuild" the board? As in all the patching, channel names, etc? Can I backup everything to a USB drive then restore the settings? I've got a board I installed in a church and I'd like to get it upgraded but I need to know how much time to allocate for the upgrade, because it'll take a while to rebuild all the settings like they are.

Thanks,
Tommy
Title: Re: Upgrading from 1.15 -> 2.x
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 17, 2014, 12:47:16 pm
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this but...

When I upgrade from 1.15 to 2.x will I have to "rebuild" the board? As in all the patching, channel names, etc? Can I backup everything to a USB drive then restore the settings? I've got a board I installed in a church and I'd like to get it upgraded but I need to know how much time to allocate for the upgrade, because it'll take a while to rebuild all the settings like they are.


Yes, you have to start over.   The board resets when you update.   Files saved in 1.15 can't be read by 2.02.

Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 17, 2014, 01:02:43 pm
Yes, you have to start over.   The board resets when you update.   Files saved in 1.15 can't be read by 2.02.

That's what I thought, I just wanted to confirm. I'll just have to plan on spending a few hours getting it set back up. I'll probably wait for the new Mac edit app to come out so I can do most of the work of  it. They're not in a huge hurry to get the update, I just like to keep things up to date.

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: Upgrading from 1.15 -> 2.x
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 17, 2014, 01:34:29 pm
Yes, you have to start over.   The board resets when you update.   Files saved in 1.15 can't be read by 2.02.

Uh, are you sure about that, James?  2.0.0/2.0.1 could not, but reportedly 2.0.2 can open saved files from USB and then allows you to store them as v2 files.  There have been reports of some parameters not transferring and others being set to zero, but if mixer structure - routing, analog out configs, i/o scribbles, libraries etc - will transfer correctly a lot of effort has been saved.

Syncing X32 Edit and the iPad app have work-arounds until updated.  The very cool Android app is being updated.
Title: Re: Upgrading from 1.15 -> 2.x
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 17, 2014, 01:39:13 pm
Uh, are you sure about that, James?  2.0.0/2.0.1 could not, but reportedly 2.0.2 can open saved files from USB and then allows you to store them as v2 files.  There have been reports of some parameters not transferring and others being set to zero, but if mixer structure - routing, analog out configs, i/o scribbles, libraries etc - will transfer correctly a lot of effort has been saved.

Well, Tim, come to think of it, I am not sure about it.  I ASSumed since the 2.0 Beta wouldn't read 1.15, that 2.02 wouldn't either.    I'll try to check on that next time I get mixer off the truck.

Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Upgrading from 1.15 -> 2.x
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 17, 2014, 02:00:38 pm
Uh, are you sure about that, James?  2.0.0/2.0.1 could not, but reportedly 2.0.2 can open saved files from USB and then allows you to store them as v2 files.  There have been reports of some parameters not transferring and others being set to zero, but if mixer structure - routing, analog out configs, i/o scribbles, libraries etc - will transfer correctly a lot of effort has been saved.

Tim you are correct.   I just installed 2.02 (again) and was able to load show files that I saved on 1.15 over the weekend.  I've not gone too deeply into it yet, but what I can see so far, everything except networks settings are there.   
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 17, 2014, 02:07:27 pm
Tim you are correct.   I just installed 2.02 (again) and was able to load show files that I saved on 1.15 over the weekend.  I've not gone too deeply into it yet, but what I can see so far, everything except networks settings are there.

That's good. Thanks for the info.

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: Upgrading from 1.15 -> 2.x
Post by: Benjamin Gingerich on March 17, 2014, 02:15:10 pm
Tim you are correct.   I just installed 2.02 (again) and was able to load show files that I saved on 1.15 over the weekend.  I've not gone too deeply into it yet, but what I can see so far, everything except networks settings are there.

Linked channels are not linked anymore, and network settings were back to zero, but other than that it seemed to work well.
Title: Re: Upgrading from 1.15 -> 2.x
Post by: Keith Broughton on March 18, 2014, 08:36:57 am
Yes, you have to start over.   The board resets when you update.   Files saved in 1.15 can't be read by 2.02.
It is my understanding, according to Behringer forum, that the FULL version of 2.x will read previous version files.
Quote
2.02 (2014-03-11)
improvements

- V1.x scene/show/library conversion
forum post http://forum.behringer.com/showthread.php?3321-V2-02-final-released (http://forum.behringer.com/showthread.php?3321-V2-02-final-released)
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Jan Duwe on March 18, 2014, 11:34:59 am
Okay I talked with Zach at Behringer tech support ... that is just F**cking stupid!!!!

Dear Brian, Dan, Tommy, James, Tim,

There is a remarkable 47 posts and yet only little factual clarity. Taking full responsibility for the  'Scene 00' and the new, expanded show control ideas, which I still consider an extremely useful detail, I'd like to share my understanding of the concerns you rose.


We found however, that the current display of the last stored scene number and name in V2.02 should be changed back to the way it was in V1.15. It will however remain depending on your preference regarding the show controls: cues/scenes/snippets, as mentioned above. We will amend this within 2.03, very soon.

Best,
Jan Duwe

Senior Engineer Conceptualization
Music Group Services EU GmbH
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 18, 2014, 11:36:09 am
See my reply in your separate "Re: X32 2.02 Firmware....."

Dear Brian, Dan, Tommy, James, Tim,

There is a remarkable 47 posts and yet only little factual clarity. Taking full responsibility for the  'Scene 00' and the new, expanded show control ideas, which I still consider an extremely useful detail, I'd like to share my understanding of the concerns you rose.

  • Neither X32 fw V1.15, nor V2.02 loads any scenes while starting up
  • Upon booting, X32 returns to the exact, last stored temporary state it was in before the power cycle
  • When the last stored state includes a stored or loaded scene, than that scene number will be displayed in the top status bar
  • Saving all (apprx. 10k) parameters to flash, is done by a background process and may take up to two minutes worst-case; or 5s when Safe Shutdown by pressing HOME is used
  • Before doing the update from V1.15 to V2.02 we recommend saving the current state to a scene and then exporting the show with all scenes to a USB stick
  • V1.15 scenes and shows can of course be read from V2.02, as promised
  • The new expanded show management comprises 500 Cues, 100 Scenes, 100 Snippets
  • Depending on your preferences you may associate the prev/next/undo/go buttons and the display numbers with either one of the three Cues/Scenes/Snippets. See Setup/global preference
  • Scene 00 is exactly the same as all the other 100 scenes, with the sole special property of ignoring any and all of the global parameter and channel safes. E.g. you may use it for saving a complete default setup, including the patching/routing for your venue, while keeping the safes active. When bands or external engineers come to your place, they may load their own scenes, without messing with your local setup.
  • The X32 Edit app for PC/Mac/Linux is on its way. We currently target end of March for release. However, you can still use the 'old' X32 Edit 1.2 without synchronizing console/app.
  • The X32 Mix iPad app is likely to be released tomorrow, Wednesday. Due to Apple's policy regarding iOS5 devices, we can only get it approved for iOS 6 or 7 devices; hence iPad 1 will not be supported any longer, much to my regrets.

We found however, that the current display of the last stored scene number and name in V2.02 should be changed back to the way it was in V1.15. It will however remain depending on your preference regarding the show controls: cues/scenes/snippets, as mentioned above. We will amend this within 2.03, very soon.

Best,
Jan Duwe

Senior Engineer Conceptualization
Music Group Services EU GmbH
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 18, 2014, 11:43:43 am
Dear Brian, Dan, Tommy, James, Tim,

There is a remarkable 47 posts and yet only little factual clarity. Taking full responsibility for the  'Scene 00' and the new, expanded show control ideas, which I still consider an extremely useful detail, I'd like to share my understanding of the concerns you rose.

  • Neither X32 fw V1.15, nor V2.02 loads any scenes while starting up
  • Upon booting, X32 returns to the exact, last stored temporary state it was in before the power cycle
  • When the last stored state includes a stored or loaded scene, than that scene number will be displayed in the top status bar
  • Saving all (apprx. 10k) parameters to flash, is done by a background process and may take up to two minutes worst-case; or 5s when Safe Shutdown by pressing HOME is used
  • Before doing the update from V1.15 to V2.02 we recommend saving the current state to a scene and then exporting the show with all scenes to a USB stick
  • V1.15 scenes and shows can of course be read from V2.02, as promised
  • The new expanded show management comprises 500 Cues, 100 Scenes, 100 Snippets
  • Depending on your preferences you may associate the prev/next/undo/go buttons and the display numbers with either one of the three Cues/Scenes/Snippets. See Setup/global preference
  • Scene 00 is exactly the same as all the other 100 scenes, with the sole special property of ignoring any and all of the global parameter and channel safes. E.g. you may use it for saving a complete default setup, including the patching/routing for your venue, while keeping the safes active. When bands or external engineers come to your place, they may load their own scenes, without messing with your local setup.
  • The X32 Edit app for PC/Mac/Linux is on its way. We currently target end of March for release. However, you can still use the 'old' X32 Edit 1.2 without synchronizing console/app.
  • The X32 Mix iPad app is likely to be released tomorrow, Wednesday. Due to Apple's policy regarding iOS5 devices, we can only get it approved for iOS 6 or 7 devices; hence iPad 1 will not be supported any longer, much to my regrets.

We found however, that the current display of the last stored scene number and name in V2.02 should be changed back to the way it was in V1.15. It will however remain depending on your preference regarding the show controls: cues/scenes/snippets, as mentioned above. We will amend this within 2.03, very soon.

Best,
Jan Duwe

Senior Engineer Conceptualization
Music Group Services EU GmbH

Thanks for the information. Kinda depressed about the iPad 1(that's what I have and use along with my Nexus 4 and the Mixing Station app), stupid Apple. Nice to hear all of that from the source. I'm guessing if I want to keep using my iPad 1 I need to stay on v1.15?

P. S. An Android tablet equilivent to the iPad app would be very AWESOME.

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 18, 2014, 12:41:33 pm

P. S. An Android tablet equilivent to the iPad app would be very AWESOME.

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

X32 Mix Station.  In the Google Play store.  Free.  And it kicks ass.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 18, 2014, 12:48:55 pm
X32 Mix Station.  In the Google Play store.  Free.  And it kicks ass.
I've got it on my Nexus 4, good stuff for sure. Still an official app would be nice; though I wouldn't have a problem mixing from Mixing Station if I had an Android tablet. I'm planning on getting one this year sometime, but I'm waiting to see what the next Nexus tablet(s)  will be. I'm hoping a new Nexus 10 comes out, though and 8 would be good too. The Nexus 7 is nice but I really want something bigger and I either want a Nexus or Google Play Edition of whatever I get(stock Android is awesome and they're easy to root and use a custom ROM if I want).

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 18, 2014, 02:08:19 pm
See my reply in your separate "Re: X32 2.02 Firmware....."

Where?
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 18, 2014, 02:11:34 pm
Where?

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,148854.0.html
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 18, 2014, 02:21:43 pm

  • Neither X32 fw V1.15, nor V2.02 loads any scenes while starting up
  • Upon booting, X32 returns to the exact, last stored temporary state it was in before the power cycle
  • When the last stored state includes a stored or loaded scene, than that scene number will be displayed in the top status bar
  • Saving all (apprx. 10k) parameters to flash, is done by a background process and may take up to two minutes worst-case; or 5s when Safe Shutdown by pressing HOME is used


Hi Jan,

Thanks for posting this.

I'm known for not seeing what's in front of my face, but I sure don't see any scene numbers on the screen. Can you please post a screen shot showing where I should be looking? I just looked again in the View Scenes screen, and see no indicator of scene number.

The point of the discussion here about the console state when starting up is what happens in an unplanned shutdown and where the console is at when it restarts. Two minutes can be a long time; you say "up to two minutes". Does that mean the time is variable? I didn't change many parameters if any, and it always seemed to lose unsaved changes within nearly two minutes. I didn't do scientific testing, though, to know for sure.

Thanks,
Dan
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on March 18, 2014, 02:56:10 pm
I'm known for not seeing what's in front of my face, but I sure don't see any scene numbers on the screen. Can you please post a screen shot showing where I should be looking? I just looked again in the View Scenes screen, and see no indicator of scene number.

Further down Jan says:
Quote
We found however, that the current display of the last stored scene number and name in V2.02 should be changed back to the way it was in V1.15. It will however remain depending on your preference regarding the show controls: cues/scenes/snippets, as mentioned above. We will amend this within 2.03, very soon.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 18, 2014, 03:07:28 pm
Further down Jan says:

Funny, I see that and don't see that it says "there are no displayed numbers" but rather that there is a stylistic change in 2.02 that they don't like which will be fixed in 2.03.

Thanks for interpreting European speak for me.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 18, 2014, 03:10:08 pm
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,148854.0.html

Ah, I see. He started a new thread instead of replying here. I've been keeping this thread open and just refreshing rather than looking at the Lounge home page and didn't see the "new" thread.

Thanks,
Dan
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Uwe Riemer on March 18, 2014, 06:30:16 pm
Mixed three different shows on V2.02 at Wednesday, Friday, Saturday.

The only problem: couldnt visit PL&S

On a more serious note, really loved that inserted FX now show up on screen if Effects are selected.
But related to this is a behaviour of the console Im not completely happy with:

Monitor bus selected, GEQ on faders and now want to go back to DCA layer, so I hit DCA and nothing happens, Output bank stays in GEQ on fader mode.
This behaviour is correct in the logic of the UI, because by hitting DCA the monitor bus stays selected, therefore the screen displays the GEQ, therefore GEQ stays on faders.
Nevertheless it is cumbersome to unselect Effects or press a View button to leave GEQ on faders and hit DCA.

Regarding Scenes:
Thanks Jan Duwe for explaining the Scene 00, this is a nice addition.

But there is an unexpected behaviour regarding scene storage:
Until yesterday I thought, that storing a scene to the scene memory would also update the flash ( temporary ) memory outright, but this seems wrong.
A power drop out ( simulated  :) ) within less than two minutes will bring back the console NOT in the last stored state but in the state the console was able to store to flash memory in that time.


Uwe


Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 18, 2014, 07:31:30 pm

Monitor bus selected, GEQ on faders and now want to go back to DCA layer, so I hit DCA and nothing happens, Output bank stays in GEQ on fader mode.
This behaviour is correct in the logic of the UI, because by hitting DCA the monitor bus stays selected, therefore the screen displays the GEQ, therefore GEQ stays on faders.
Thanks Jan Duwe for explaining the Scene 00, this is a nice addition.

But there is an unexpected behaviour regarding scene storage:
Until yesterday I thought, that storing a scene to the scene memory would also update the flash ( temporary ) memory outright, but this seems wrong.
A power drop out ( simulated  :) ) within less than two minutes will bring back the console NOT in the last stored state but in the state the console was able to store to flash memory in that time.


Uwe

Must check the selecting DCA if on GEQ onfaders in V.15 - seem to remember that could leave this screen and go to another layer and then when cme back would still have geq on faders -i.e did not need to deselect it to move.

RE the scenes / state - I actually would want the console to be restored to the last  state it was actually in and not the last state saved to a scene - this makes more and total sense
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 19, 2014, 06:21:48 pm


RE the scenes / state - I actually would want the console to be restored to the last  state it was actually in and not the last state saved to a scene - this makes more and total sense

Agreed.  But it doesn't do that if it power cycles in less that 2 minutes.  That been my point all along.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 19, 2014, 07:00:04 pm
Agreed.  But it doesn't do that if it power cycles in less that 2 minutes.  That been my point all along.
Ok a bit of a bummer if you have just done lots of changes before the state is stored / or you managed to save them to a scene.... but realistically this is more likely to be a bad coincidence of events. What would be a real bummer is if the power cycle reverted to the last saved scene - so thank goodness it does not do that. Although, as you go along always a good idea to save changes to a scene - especially if altering processing settings - easy to forget sometimes - so how it currently works is fine... whether there is some sort of processing restriction for only having the state saved every 1 to 2 minutes I don't know.

But luckily have not had an unforeseen outage yet .... mind you I do use a psu.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 19, 2014, 07:39:46 pm
What would be a real bummer is if the power cycle reverted to the last saved scene - so thank goodness it does not do that.

That's exactly what it does when you lose power when less than 2 minutes have elapsed since your last scene change.

Since that doesn't seem to be sinking in, let me say it another way:

Show runs along fine, scenes/cues change fine.

Change to Scene 42.

Stay in Scene 42 for 5 minutes.

Change to Scene 43.

Stay in Scene 43 for one minute.

Power goes out.

Power comes back on.

Hey, you are in Scene 42.

Get it now?

Edit: Better yet, you're doing a fast moving theatrical production.

Scene 1 lasts 1 minute.

Scene 2 is only 45 seconds.

Scene 3 is a minute and a half.

Scene 4 is 1 minute.

Etc, etc, etc.

Scene 20 lasts 30 seconds.

Power goes out.

Power comes back on.

Hey, you're in Scene 1.

Edit March 21: I no longer think the console does this, although it did it several times before I wrote this. It's worse. See later posts.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 19, 2014, 08:42:44 pm
Agreed.  But it doesn't do that if it power cycles in less that 2 minutes.  That been my point all along.

And this is what I wish the Behringer folks were paying attention to.

YAMAHA and every other digi mixer on the planet can do this.  Why NOT the x32?
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 19, 2014, 09:12:55 pm
That's exactly what it does when you lose power when less than 2 minutes have elapsed since your last scene change.

Since that doesn't seem to be sinking in, let me say it another way:

Show runs along fine, scenes/cues change fine.

Change to Scene 42.

Stay in Scene 42 for 5 minutes.

Change to Scene 43.

Stay in Scene 43 for one minute.

Power goes out.

Power comes back on.

Hey, you are in Scene 42.

Get it now?

Edit: Better yet, you're doing a fast moving theatrical production.

Scene 1 lasts 1 minute.

Scene 2 is only 45 seconds.

Scene 3 is a minute and a half.

Scene 4 is 1 minute.

Etc, etc, etc.

Scene 20 lasts 30 seconds.

Power goes out.

Power comes back on.

Hey, you're in Scene 1.

Thank You    Exactly my point.  Even the guy from Behringer pointed it out in his post.  Yet they seem to think its not a problem?  WTF!!  It's truly amazing that some people on here don't get it or try and band-aid the problem by using a battery backup.  The fact is Behringer needs to fix the issue to match every other console in the industry!!! 
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Uwe Riemer on March 20, 2014, 05:00:40 am
Thank You    Exactly my point.  Even the guy from Behringer pointed it out in his post.  Yet they seem to think its not a problem?  WTF!!  It's truly amazing that some people on here don't get it or try and band-aid the problem by using a battery backup.  The fact is Behringer needs to fix the issue to match every other console in the industry!!!


Since the invention of the WWW the world turned into a better place, more precisely into a candy store.
We can now whine and beg and moan until we get what we want.

Unfortunately Im old enough to remember, how it was done before:
I picked a tool based on the pros and cons, enjoyed the pros and worked around the limits.

One limit of this specific console is the way the temporary memory is handled, and Im sure the behringer engineers choose this solely to annoy me, but hey I can simply go out and buy a UPS,
sorry behringer fail, try again to annoy me,

e.g. you could build a console which reacts slow to fader movements or maybe does not update the UI screen immediately, for whatever reason I dont care,
because remember the world now is a candy store


Uwe
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Alec Spence on March 20, 2014, 11:09:24 am
but realistically this is more likely to be a bad coincidence of events.

But luckily have not had an unforeseen outage yet .... mind you I do use a psu.

Of course, the fact that it needs to be a bad coincidence of events means that it's almost guaranteed to happen!
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 20, 2014, 01:42:44 pm
That's exactly what it does when you lose power when less than 2 minutes have elapsed since your last scene change.

Since that doesn't seem to be sinking in, let me say it another way:

Show runs along fine, scenes/cues change fine.

Change to Scene 42.

Stay in Scene 42 for 5 minutes.

Change to Scene 43.

Stay in Scene 43 for one minute.

Power goes out.

Power comes back on.

Hey, you are in Scene 42.

Get it now?

Edit: Better yet, you're doing a fast moving theatrical production.

Scene 1 lasts 1 minute.

Scene 2 is only 45 seconds.

Scene 3 is a minute and a half.

Scene 4 is 1 minute.

Etc, etc, etc.

Scene 20 lasts 30 seconds.

Power goes out.

Power comes back on.

Hey, you're in Scene 1.

I see what you say - and I must really check this out - but are you in fact just reverting to the last saved state ( which for you was the previous scene you were on)? - so say

you are on scene 1 for 5 mins + during that time make a minor change - say after after 2 mins - e.g.  to a fader level - but do not save it to that scene ( as only temporary) - this should be saved as your last state

you then go to scene 2 and after 30 secs the power goes (& the new state was not saved) - on reboot you should come back to the last state i.e. the settings you had in scene 1 + your slight adjustment  ( the last saved state).

( + If I were you get a ups if you haven't already -like a server if a critical system it needs one)

Perhaps a request for v3 - option in global settings to revert to last saved state or last scene loaded ( obviously minus any changes not saved)

well will check it out when time - and maybe have to eat my hat - but that is my understanding and certainly how it seems to work when I power up the console - e.g. today I powered up and had settings I had quickly done for processing a recording last night - which I had forgot to save to a scene - well I was fiddling about and went to another scene to look at something - and then suddenly realised I would have to redo all that stuff I had not saved - so it did not come up as any particularly valid scene  - just the last state I was in ( even though this had been created from the base of another scene).

Trust you comprehend the logic of what I am saying

Ps AS an additional perhaps a request could be to alter the save state to include an append process - so the complete state is saved every 1 or 2 mins and then when any changes are made these  are appended to the state - so on reboot the state saved state is loaded and then any alterations made to this in the period before another full state could have been saved.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 20, 2014, 01:57:20 pm
I see what you say - and I must really check this out - but are you in fact just reverting to the last saved state ( which for you was the previous scene you were on)? - so say

you are on scene 1 for 5 mins + during that time make a minor change - say after after 2 mins - e.g.  to a fader level - but do not save it to that scene ( as only temporary) - this should be auto-saved as your last state if you leave it in place for 2 minutes

you then go to scene 2 and after 30 secs the power goes (& the new state was not saved) - on reboot you should come back to the last state i.e. the settings you had in scene 1 + your slight adjustment  ( the last auto-saved state).


Hi Nick,

Yes, I believe you are almost right, and the bolded clarifications above makes you right.

Dan
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 20, 2014, 02:16:13 pm
Hi Nick,

Yes, I believe you are almost right, and the bolded clarifications above makes you right.

Dan

OK see what you mean - but unless the state was saved instantly every time a change was made you could have the same problem even if the save state cycle was shorter.
BUT again from my perspective I would rather go back to the last state saved ( so it is as close to the last settings I had) rather than the last scene I loaded - If I were doing critical changes then I should save it to the/a scene as I go along - but there could even be an outage during this.

The weak point is not really the x32 - it is the power supply to the unit that needs to be consistent to avoid outages - if you are suddenly rebooting during a show then in your scenarios is the fact that you revert to the state that happens to be the previous scene you were on a real big deal if all you have to do is quickly check which scene you want to be on and reload if necessary for your already disrupted performance to continue.

 
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 20, 2014, 04:39:10 pm
OK see what you mean - but unless the state was saved instantly every time a change was made you could have the same problem even if the save state cycle was shorter.
BUT again from my perspective I would rather go back to the last state saved ( so it is as close to the last settings I had) rather than the last scene I loaded - If I were doing critical changes then I should save it to the/a scene as I go along - but there could even be an outage during this.

The weak point is not really the x32 - it is the power supply to the unit that needs to be consistent to avoid outages - if you are suddenly rebooting during a show then in your scenarios is the fact that you revert to the state that happens to be the previous scene you were on a real big deal if all you have to do is quickly check which scene you want to be on and reload if necessary for your already disrupted performance to continue.



Don't know where the weak point is, but I guess it seems to be arguable and open to opinion whether you want it to come back in the last loaded state or the last auto-saved state, which could be two different things.

I did a show a couple weeks ago where we were globally changing sources, i.e., one song the sources were a couple of S16's, another was the local XLR's, etc.. If my double conversion UPS crapped out and the console rebooted into the wrong sources, what was already bad would have been a lot worse.

I agree that it may be asking too much to ask it to constantly and instantly auto-save, although other people seem to be saying that other consoles do it; I think I would settle for a Cue Load action to automatically trigger an auto-save action. Then at least you are in the ballpark of where you were minus any changes in the previous two minutes, if worst came to worst.

And while I also agree that we are talking about a situation that may never occur for most people, I think it's important to fully understand what the console is doing and capable of doing in order to be a better operator/engineer, and that's why I'm contributing to the belaboring of this point. And other points.

Thanks,
Dan
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 20, 2014, 04:48:02 pm
OK see what you mean - but unless the state was saved instantly every time a change was made you could have the same problem even if the save state cycle was shorter.
BUT again from my perspective I would rather go back to the last state saved ( so it is as close to the last settings I had) rather than the last scene I loaded - If I were doing critical changes then I should save it to the/a scene as I go along - but there could even be an outage during this.

This is exactly what every other contemporary digital mixer does - save to buffer the state of the mixer whenever ANY control is manipulated.  It can be a delta modulation (where only the differences are recorded).

The issue here is simply that Behringer hasn't done (can't figure out, doesn't want to, or the device simply cannot do it) what every other digital mixer sold today can do: come back exactly the way it was when the power went down...

No excuses, no bullshit.  As an X32 owner I want this fixed, it's a deal breaker and my desk will be for sale if Uli cant fix this.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 20, 2014, 04:54:56 pm
Am I getting this right - Dan wants to go back to the last Loaded state (i.e. Scene that was last loaded) and Tim wants to go to the exact last change (state) that was made to the millisecond?



( solution -tongue in cheek - Dan reload the scene you want to be on, and Tim get a good ups!)


Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 20, 2014, 05:12:33 pm
Am I getting this right - Dan wants to go back to the last Loaded state (i.e. Scene that was last loaded) and Tim wants to go to the exact last change (state) that was made to the millisecond?



( solution -tongue in cheek - Dan reload the scene you want to be on, and Tim get a good ups!)

Dan is understanding that the Behringer system auto-saves every two minutes.

If that can be modified, I want what Tim wants.

If it can't, I want every Cue and Scene load to be also an auto-save, so that if the power went off 2 seconds after the Cue loaded, that last Cue load would be the saved state at reboot.

I'd hoped that my example in my last post would be reason enough to show why I want the last loaded scene at least to be the reboot state, but apparently I was wrong.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 20, 2014, 05:30:40 pm
Am I getting this right - Dan wants to go back to the last Loaded state (i.e. Scene that was last loaded) and Tim wants to go to the exact last change (state) that was made to the millisecond?



( solution -tongue in cheek - Dan reload the scene you want to be on, and Tim get a good ups!)

I own several UPS and I'm a firm believer in them, mostly for the AVR features, but that's not the point here.  Shit can, does, and will happen particularly at the worst possible moment, including UPS failure.

Again, this is about Behringer making their product work the way it needs to work, not applying a $200 band-aid.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Luke Geis on March 20, 2014, 05:32:53 pm
Perhaps my experience is different? But mine as I recall, will load up the last change that I made. I.E. If i suddenly loose power, the next boot will bring up what was going on at the moment the machine was shut down. This is with the 1.15 firmware.

Try this and report back.

1. Turn on and recall a scene that is different from the one that is currently loaded.

2. Make some changes to the current scene and sit on it for a few minutes.

3. Just before you pull the power cord on the unit, make a change that you know you can remember. Perhaps a channel all the way up or something?

4. Now turn off the switch before you plug the power back in and then turn the mixer back on in the proper manor.

5. Note what state the mixer boots back up in. Is the last change you made still active or not?

In the case of a production where your running through several scenes, I still don't see a big issue if it doesn't come right back. It only takes a moment to recall the correct scene. If you loose power mid show, your going to have to get re-situated anyway. That means going back to the last cue and getting back on track. In any case where the shows life depends on uninterrupted flow, you should probably also have uninterrupted power! This would at least buy you the time to get the power back on without loosing the mixers position in the show.

I don't think it's common to loose power mid show, but am certain it happens. In 10 years of doing this I have never lost power to FOH. I am lucky perhaps? When it counts I use an UPS at FOH to at least buy time for the IF........
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Mac Kerr on March 20, 2014, 05:33:42 pm
Am I getting this right - Dan wants to go back to the last Loaded state (i.e. Scene that was last loaded) and Tim wants to go to the exact last change (state) that was made to the millisecond?



( solution -tongue in cheek - Dan reload the scene you want to be on, and Tim get a good ups!)

I guess you would rather live with the shortcomings rather than ask that they be fixed. This whole discussion is a complete non issue on every other digital console. With Yamaha it goes a step farther. There is a nonvolatile buffer with the current state, as well as a buffer with the previous (unsaved) state, so you can use the "undo" button. Both of these are in addition to any saved states. On any power down, whether intentional or not the console returns to the last state it was in, saved or not.

A UPS wouldn't help Tim if it was the only source of power and the UPS failed.

I have had power go down on shows due to local power grid outage, stagehand unplugging wrong cable, badly seated CamLok, and a faulty 200A 3Ø circuit breaker. It is not blue skying to worry about how a system behaves under adverse conditions, it is professional behavior.

Mac
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 20, 2014, 06:40:08 pm

Try this and report back.

1. Turn on and recall a scene that is different from the one that is currently loaded.

2. Make some changes to the current scene and sit on it for a few minutes.

3. Just before you pull the power cord on the unit, make a change that you know you can remember. Perhaps a channel all the way up or something?

4. Now turn off the switch before you plug the power back in and then turn the mixer back on in the proper manor.

5. Note what state the mixer boots back up in. Is the last change you made still active or not?



Doing this repeatedly in 2.02 always results in the console going back to your step #2.

Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 20, 2014, 07:10:04 pm
I'd hoped that my example in my last post would be reason enough to show why I want the last loaded scene at least to be the reboot state, but apparently I was wrong.

Yes all your posts have made that perfectly clear - but what you seemed to be saying is that
if you loaded a new scene and the console went down before 2 minutes the previous scenes was loaded - and this is not the case it is last state saved - which you now seem to accept - and this is what made me reply to your assumptions as they appeared to me to be wrong and misleading.

To force a state save when a scene, or cue of snippet is loaded is not a bad idea ( but also continuing with the periodic automatic state save) and would serve  both your and others (including my) needs.

The issue of how frequent state saves should be may or may not be a dsp consideration - and one has to remember that this is a relative cheap console albeit with a lot of very good features that previously you would have to pay a lot more money for - but there undoubtedly have to be some compromises.
Shit does happen - but you cannot account for all shit in advance - you can minimise it as far as is practical within limits of processing power and indeed money - you just need to be alert to deal with it if it happens.

Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 20, 2014, 07:33:21 pm
I guess you would rather live with the shortcomings rather than ask that they be fixed.

No don't mind it being fixed - but to me not a major issue - my main concern in this discussion was that the last state saved should be loaded and not have a reversion to the last loaded scene ( to my mind that would be a really retrograde "fix")- If the state can be saved more frequently then I have no problems with that.

Quote
This whole discussion is a complete non issue on every other digital console. With Yamaha it goes a step farther. There is a nonvolatile buffer with the current state, as well as a buffer with the previous (unsaved) state, so you can use the "undo" button. Both of these are in addition to any saved states. On any power down, whether intentional or not the console returns to the last state it was in, saved or not.

OK that would be very welcome and what is the relative price of these

Quote
A UPS wouldn't help Tim if it was the only source of power and the UPS failed.
Ugh!- you could argue a UPS would not help tim for very long if there was a major power outage for the area.[/quote]

Quote
I have had power go down on shows due to local power grid outage

well no a UPS would not help here - but when the power returned - I am sure there would be some time to get everything switched back on and sorted -or are the band standing there for however long the grid is out ready to thrash the next chord the instance the lights come back on [/quote]

Quote
stagehand unplugging wrong cable, badly seated CamLok, and a faulty 200A 3Ø circuit breaker. It is not blue skying to worry about how a system behaves under adverse conditions, it is professional behaviour
seems there are a lot of other things you need to sort out ,check and police before you worry about the console not being returned to exact state - or do you just sit there and say "what the F*** .. I'll be ready to go as my console will be fine"  until someone else sorts it out
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 20, 2014, 10:29:39 pm
Yes all your posts have made that perfectly clear - but what you seemed to be saying is that
if you loaded a new scene and the console went down before 2 minutes the previous scenes was loaded
- and this is not the case it is last state saved - which you now seem to accept - and this is what made me reply to your assumptions as they appeared to me to be wrong and misleading.

The bolded part is exactly what I was saying, and now I'm going to say something slightly different based on going back to the console and trying it again and again and getting different results.

First I loaded a show with 6 scenes and no cues (a 1.15 show).

Loading Scene 1 and letting it sit for 4 minutes and then loading the other scenes one after the other, letting each sit for 30 seconds , ending at scene 6 and rebooting. After, Scene 6 was on the console. This is in Cue preference, but changing scenes in the Scene tab using the Scenes buttons on the console. No confirmation for go, it goes as soon as you press "GO" (when not in the home or config screens). This seems to confirm your thesis and says I was mistaken.

After that, I created some Cues in the Cue screen, with Cue 1 being Scene 1, 2 is Scene 2, etc. From then on, whether in the Cue preference or the Scene preference, starting at Cue 1 Scene 1, letting it sit, then going up to 6 with little time on each Cue and then powering down, what came up was some kind of composite Cue/scene that had elements of several Scenes but was not any particular one.

While typing that, I started to wonder if I missed something, and so went back, reloaded that show, and ran through it again. No Cues, in Scene preference, let Scene 1 load and sit for 4 minutes, went to Scene 2, sit for 30 seconds, same for 3, 4, and 5. Loaded 6, sit for 10 seconds, powered down, sit for about 30 seconds console off. Power up, see some kind of amalgamated scene that SAID Scene 6 but clearly wasn't, as fader positions jumped into place upon reaching console active state. Loaded Scene 6 and labels and fader positions dramatically changed from the reboot status.

Don't know what's going on, but it's not coming back as even a recognizable Scene under those admittedly odd conditions (30 sec between scene changes).

I believe that if you let each Scene (or at least the last scene, scene 5 in this case) sit for 2 minutes after loading without doing any saves (scenes 2-5, in my scenario above), and then load another scene (scene 6) and the power goes down before 2 minutes have elapsed, then when the console reboots it will be in the previous scene (scene 5) and not the scene that was active when the power went down (scene 6), which I think is what you sort of wrote above that I said.


- and this is not the case it is last state saved 


I also believe you are being sloppy by not differentiating between manual saves and auto-saves, which are two different things. The effect may be the same from each, but the way they are achieved is notably different.

I don't know if they are different in terms of what happens in case of an unplanned reboot, but I don't think it's relevant as few people will happen to have manually saved one second before an unplanned reboot. They are then relying on the last auto-save, which makes it important when that auto-saving occurs, and how many changes have happened in the two minutes since the last auto-save.

It's entirely possible I'm totally missing something, but I'm reporting what I see.

Dan
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Craig Hamilton on March 20, 2014, 11:27:16 pm
It has been stated how excellent the memory capability of the Yamaha consoles is in terms of remembering active state and previous state for the undo, and someone else pointed out at what cost difference this is. I would like to know if it is definitive that every other digital console manufacturer, especially at the x32 price level, is as perfect as the Yamaha consoles for instant memory save or if maybe the x32 is not the only console that has to compromise this function because of the price point. Im thinking mackie and qu16 and the new Qsc.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Brian Wynn on March 21, 2014, 12:06:56 am
Doing this repeatedly in 2.02 always results in the console going back to your step #2.

First I have to say "look at the shit storm I started" lol.  Version 1.15 operated just fine when the desk was powered down and back on.  It doesn't now.  They screwed it up they should fix it end of story.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 21, 2014, 02:29:07 am
I would like to know if it is definitive that every other digital console manufacturer, especially at the x32 price level, is as perfect as the Yamaha consoles for instant memory save or if maybe the x32 is not the only console that has to compromise this function because of the price point. Im thinking mackie and qu16 and the new Qsc.

Good point. Others will have to provide the answers, though.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on March 21, 2014, 08:41:59 am
Taking the challenge:

GLD112: Slide a fader, immediately pull the power plug, move the fader back, plug the GLD back in: oops. doesn't restore the fader position.

GLD112: Slide a fader, wait 5 minutes, pull plug, reboot: State is properly saved.

Looks like the GLD behavior is currently similar to the X32.  I didn't run multiple tests to figure out if it is a 2 minute save time,...  It could be saving every X minutes 'since last boot', so the behavior would be erratic depending on when you yanked the power.

If you do a proper 'soft power down' the GLD does save the state immediately, but not if you yank the power cord.

I'm with the others, the preferred behavior is to be able to yank the power and plug it back in and you will be at the same place before you yanked the power.

+1 for Yamaha, but I don't think I'll trade in my GLD, or my X32rack for my old 01V96 based on this issue.  The x32 Rack works perfectly in my rehearsal space for my purposes.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Chuck Simon on March 21, 2014, 11:18:24 am
Good point. Others will have to provide the answers, though.

I know that the Studio Live and Soundcraft Expression retain their settings when re-booted.  I thought all boards did.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 21, 2014, 11:56:10 am
I know that the Studio Live and Soundcraft Expression retain their settings when re-booted.  I thought all boards did.

Well the x32 does as well provided you power it down correctly - either wait for 1 - 2 minutes - ( I always believed it was 1) or do a safe shutdown which saves the state. Plus do they if you change a state & then immediately pull out the plug?

Dan - I just had a play - and it seems to me it is very difficult to determine when the save of the state occurs - and at no point did I wait up to 2 minutes between cycles & sometimes it reverted exactly and sometimes to the prior state saved.

The obvious thing is as far as possible to mitigate against power outages (or UPS failure) - but if there is an outage then the important thing is to be able to check where the desk is restored to - I always boot with safe main levels so that would help a bit.

Certainly a useful enhancement would be to do state save in conjunction with a scene load as I agree having the console re-boot and the previous scene you were on before the outage coming up as being active (because you had this scene "active" when the last state was saved) could be confusing - and to be honest this had never occurred to me.

More frequent state saves might be useful - (but is it up to two minutes between or programmed as every two minutes?) - but even if it were 10 seconds you could still arguably miss the window
-or as I suggested appending individual changes to the major state saved as they happen - not sure how the change may be determined in some instances -eg fader moves at what point in moving it is the changed state saved.

Anyway something to put in the "try to remember" procedure log.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 21, 2014, 01:29:15 pm

More frequent state saves might be useful - (but is it up to two minutes between or programmed as every two minutes?)

I think it's been said by someone higher up than us that it's up to 2 minutes.

Glad to hear that you are entertaining the possibility that this could be a problem under a certain combination of circumstances for which the probability at any random time is approaching but greater than zero, while at a specific and real moment in the future is 100%.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 21, 2014, 01:32:29 pm
I think it's been said by someone higher up than us that it's up to 2 minutes.

Glad to hear that you are entertaining the possibility that this could be a problem under a certain combination of circumstances for which the probability at any random time is approaching but greater than zero, while at a specific and real moment in the future is 100%.

I've decided my Iggy Bin needed more names (not yours, Dan)...  That should greatly collapse my reading time on this thread.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 21, 2014, 03:10:15 pm
I've decided my Iggy Bin needed more names (not yours, Dan)... 

I wouldn't be offended or have even known; if you had, you would have joined a popular group since I'm widely ignored on a variety of subjects.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 21, 2014, 03:11:34 pm
I wouldn't be offended or have even known; if you had, you would have joined a popular group since I'm widely ignored on a variety of subjects.

You must have teenagers. ;)
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on March 21, 2014, 03:32:23 pm
Reading between the lines of what Jan wrote the x32 is not capable of taking snapshots more than 12 times/minute since it takes five seconds to write the approx. 10.000 parameters to the flash memory.

Someone mentioned presonus. Their autosave is once every ten seconds. They have a flashing led to tell you when it autosaves.

So why not save continously? The issue at hand is the flash memory.

Many of you must have seen/heard of the corrupt firmware memory on the studiolive consoles and this autosave may be one of the problems initiating a corrupt flash memory.

A flash memory block can only be written to a certain amount of times. With the current flash memory technology at hand that limit is approx. 100.000 write cycles.

100.000 writes at the fastest snapshot speed gives us a life expectancy of 140hrs of console running time.

By saving every 2 minutes the life expectancy increases to 3.400hrs of console running time before the flash may wear out.

By clever utilization of the memory map blocks of the flash the life expectancy will become higher.

So how can the old consoles keep their memory intact at an instant. Flash memory didn't 'exist' at the time they were built so the running state of a mixer was held in a battery powered static ram. They can be written to umlimited times.

This type of memory isn't used too much anylonger due to the comfortness of the flash memory.

So, now you're thinking - Oh, no! My flash memory will go bad in my x32 and never work again. Yes, this is correct in a distant future. However the flash memory in the x32 is in fact a normal mini sd-card and can be replaced if it should ever fail. This is so much better than onboard soldered flash memory chips.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 21, 2014, 03:57:08 pm


Like.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 21, 2014, 09:10:21 pm
Finally got to do something I've wanted to for a while.

Set up a console with 1.15 on it which had never had 2.anything on it.

Short answer is that whatever the console is doing in 2.02 it was also doing in 1.15.

Both consoles behaved the same no matter what I did to them, and I did it in unison simultaneously (if those mean slightly different things to somebody).

Another data point is that manually saving settings to a scene and then rebooting has no effect on the settings when it reboots. It will go to its random combinations of settings upon reboot.

The auto-save is the only one that counts.

So, again, as with several other things on the console, unless they are able to make the thing autosave more often or upon any parameter change, we are left with "WTF do you expect from a console this complex which costs this much?"

At this point I feel like we've identified its behavior under surprise power loss conditions, and can plan accordingly.

In case of total power loss, bring the console up first and get your correct cue/scene loaded (and you need to affirmatively load it, not just assume that because it SAYS it's the right one that it is), and then power up your amps and speakers.

If only the console goes off, either mute all your amps or disconnect the input cables unless you are positive that no combination of wrong inputs will be embarrassing.

I'm personally happy we went off on this goose chase because now we know more about my favorite console.

I'm going to make this post in the other place, too, so that it's in the giant thread and is findable within that thread.

Robert, I think your last post should be made immortal, too, and will let you copy and paste it there. With a threat that if you don't I will, after waiting a respectful period of time for you to do it.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 22, 2014, 02:56:46 am
...
By clever utilization of the memory map blocks of the flash the life expectancy will become higher.
...

Generally this is referred to as TRIM. You may  see the term when looking at SSD's for computers. What happens, to my understanding, is the software makes sure to spread out all of the read/write cycles across the entire drive/flash memory chip so that no one section goes bad. This makes the drive last longer, however eventually the flash memory will fail because of excessive reads/writes.

I'm sure a Google search for TRIM will produce much more information on the subject.

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 22, 2014, 04:51:47 am
Dear Brian, Dan, Tommy, James, Tim,

 

  • Upon booting, X32 returns to the exact, last stored temporary state it was in before the power cycle
  • When the last stored state includes a stored or loaded scene, than that scene number will be displayed in the top status bar
  • Saving all (apprx. 10k) parameters to flash, is done by a background process and may take up to two minutes worst-case; or 5s when Safe Shutdown by pressing HOME is used

Best,
Jan Duwe

Senior Engineer Conceptualization
Music Group Services EU GmbH
With the risk of going into more iggy bins I had a re-read of Jan's post.
He does not actually say how frequent the state save is but that as it runs as a background task it can take up to 2 minutes to complete.
This would explain the apparent randomness of the loaded state
on a re boot.
is it a continuous repeated cycle-taking up to 2 mins for each state to be completely saved ?
Apologies i thought people were saying it was a snapshot every 2 mins.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on March 22, 2014, 05:25:24 am
With the risk of going into more iggy bins I had a re-read of Jan's post.
He does not actually say how frequent the state save is but that as it runs as a background task it can take up to 2 minutes to complete.
This would explain the apparent randomness of the loaded state
on a re boot.
is it a continuous repeated cycle-taking up to 2 mins for each state to be completely saved ?
Apologies i thought people were saying it was a snapshot every 2 mins.
Again, reading between the lines.

A full snapshot takes five seconds to complete. The automatic snapshot is made once every two minutes. This time is fixed intervalls.

Depending on when in time you change your setting on your console the automatic save may not be executed until after two minutes from that change.

You may be lucky and make a change that gets saved right away since the time is up. On the other hand you may just have missed the save and you need to wait for the next one.

It's just like waiting for a bus that is scheduled every two minutes. As long as you get to the bus stop before the next bus arrives you'll catch that bus. The waiting game depends on when you arrived, because the bus won't wait for you. If the bus closes its doors on you before you enter it you'll have to wait another two minutes. But on the other hand if you manage to get inside the bus just as the doors closes you didn't have to wait.

But the thing with the x32 is that the two minute intervall is hidden from you as an user so your worst case scenario will always be two minutes.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 22, 2014, 05:52:28 am
Again, reading between the lines.

A full snapshot takes five seconds to complete. The automatic snapshot is made once every two minutes. This time is fixed intervalls.

Depending on when in time you change your setting on your console the automatic save may not be executed until after two minutes from that change.

You may be lucky and make a change that gets saved right away since the time is up. On the other hand you may just have missed the save and you need to wait for the next one.

It's just like waiting for a bus that is scheduled every two minutes. As long as you get to the bus stop before the next bus arrives you'll catch that bus. The waiting game depends on when you arrived, because the bus won't wait for you. If the bus closes its doors on you before you enter it you'll have to wait another two minutes. But on the other hand if you manage to get inside the bus just as the doors closes you didn't have to wait.

But the thing with the x32 is that the two minute intervall is hidden from you as an user so your worst case scenario will always be two minutes.

Not saying you are wrong but just did a test of moving Faders one by one so they were in order up down - one layer - did a cycle altering state I.e reversed. Did it quite slowly.
Powered off.
On reboot first couple of faders in correct position
Some part way in between and a whole set completely down.
Implied to me the save was being done over and not at a time period.

Btw hope my rudimentary test is wrong and you are right as prefer (a 5 sec) periodic snapshot to a bacground save that can take up to 2 mins to complete.

Edit: not going to cross post- useful if Jan could re-clarify the process.
(must always test out the Ups!)
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on March 22, 2014, 06:09:34 am
All of this is pretty irrelevant.

The only thing one need to know and understand is that any operation/changes that is made within two minutes will most likley be lost if the console is rebooting for any reason other than a safe shutdown.

I have never in my life relied on autosaves but rather manual saves anytime I feel that my adhd kicks in and tells me to. I usually have a round-robin of ten scenes...
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 22, 2014, 06:15:24 am
Not saying you are wrong but just did a test of moving Faders one by one so they were in order up down - one layer - did a cycle altering state I.e reversed. Did it quite slowly.
Powered off.
On reboot first couple of faders in correct position
Some part way in between and a whole set completely down.
Implied to me the save was being done over and not at a time period.

Btw hope my rudimentary test is wrong and you are right as prefer (a 5 sec) periodic snapshot to a bacground save that can take up to 2 mins to complete.

Edit: not going to cross post- useful if Jan could re-clarify the process.
(must always test out the Ups!)
All of this is pretty irrelevant.

The only thing one need to know and understand is that any operation/changes that is made within two minutes will most likley be lost if the console is rebooting for any reason other than a safe shutdown.

I have never in my life relied on autosaves but rather manual saves anytime I feel that my adhd kicks in and tells me to. I usually have a round-robin of ten scenes...
Quite agree - as have said not a great issue (though I have been shot down in flames for saying so!)
 but now having bothered to take part in this discussion would like to know how it does work - just out of interest!
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Per Sovik on March 22, 2014, 09:31:47 am
So when all possible theories have been tested and all has been told, we are back to Safe Shutdown + UPS + Save Your Scenes?
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 22, 2014, 10:10:17 am
So when all possible theories have been tested and all has been told, we are back to Safe Shutdown + UPS + Save Your Scenes?

Unless your UPS dies (if double conversion) or your console power plug gets pulled or you are not intending to shut down at that moment but do anyway or if you change sample rate without understanding that it means a restart or...
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 22, 2014, 10:20:45 am
So when all possible theories have been tested and all has been told, we are back to Safe Shutdown + UPS + Save Your Scenes?

Well said!
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 22, 2014, 10:28:56 am
Unless your UPS dies (if double conversion) or your console power plug gets pulled or you are not intending to shut down at that moment but do anyway or if you change sample rate without understanding that it means a restart or...
Or you spontaneously combust and the console catches on fire... Or..
Or ..

Edit: just a thought if it was a Yamaha under these circumstances I suppose they would fly in a replacement console and engineer or maybe to cover this possibility
 fully would have this on immediate standby
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on March 22, 2014, 12:49:21 pm
Ok, so the best move is to never turn on the mixer in the first place as then you are pretty sure that all your data will never be incomplete.

That saves me a lot of money ;-)
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Nick Davis on March 22, 2014, 02:41:39 pm
Ok, so the best move is to never turn on the mixer in the first place as then you are pretty sure that all your data will never be incomplete.

That saves me a lot of money ;-)
Do you mean you have actually risked switching it on - brave man!
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on March 22, 2014, 03:04:31 pm
Do you mean you have actually risked switching it on - brave man!
Yeah, I know. I love living on the edge.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 22, 2014, 05:38:56 pm
Yeah, I know. I love living on the edge.

"If you're not living on the edgy you're taking up too much room."  - Famous T shirt saying.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Sander Rooijens on March 23, 2014, 04:22:50 am
A flash memory block can only be written to a certain amount of times. With the current flash memory technology at hand that limit is approx. 100.000 write cycles.

That depends HUGELY on the exact type of flash memory used.
For (relatively very expensive) SLC flash memory the 100.000 write cycles may be correct. You can see this used in "industrial" SD cards, "enterprise" SSD's etc.

The types of MLC flash memory typically used in consumer devices, SD cards and SSD wears out a lot quicker and is often only specified for 3000 write cycles these days and this number has been getting LOWER over the last years as they keep making the memory cells on the chips smaller (more memory for lower price).

S.R.

Edit: had not kept up recently and it's even worse that I thought now with some TLC memory having only 750 erase/program cycles!
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5067/understanding-tlc-nand/2
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Scott Bolt on March 23, 2014, 12:09:15 pm
That depends HUGELY on the exact type of flash memory used.
For (relatively very expensive) SLC flash memory the 100.000 write cycles may be correct. You can see this used in "industrial" SD cards, "enterprise" SSD's etc.

The types of MLC flash memory typically used in consumer devices, SD cards and SSD wears out a lot quicker and is often only specified for 3000 write cycles these days and this number has been getting LOWER over the last years as they keep making the memory cells on the chips smaller (more memory for lower price).

S.R.

Edit: had not kept up recently and it's even worse that I thought now with some TLC memory having only 750 erase/program cycles!
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5067/understanding-tlc-nand/2
I do not know what SD is used in the X32, but any decent SD will not only support -10,000 cycles of raw write cycles; it will also be supported by TRIM raising that number to what essentially equates to forever for the trivial amount of file I/O the X32 does.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Per Sovik on March 23, 2014, 05:05:50 pm
I do not know what SD is used in the X32, but any decent SD will not only support -10,000 cycles of raw write cycles; it will also be supported by TRIM raising that number to what essentially equates to forever for the trivial amount of file I/O the X32 does.

... and either way it is easily field-replaceable in half an hour.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Jan Duwe on April 25, 2014, 09:25:57 am
Dear X32 users,

I am happy to announce the availability of some firmware and application software updates, which have even been praised by secret littles birds, recently. ::) We just got Apple's approval for X32-Mix v2.2. And I suppose it will be available in the iTunes store tonight. We are also busy uploading the corresponding firmware update v2.04 concurrently with all updates of X32-Edit 2.0 (Win/MacOSX/Linux) to our website. I have copied some of the respective release info here below, fyr.

The software versions mentioned above are working together and we recommend updating all of them. There is no guarantee that older firmware would work with the new apps, nor the other way around. The only exception being unfortunately iPad 1 users, who have no choice but keeping the old app and staying with console firmware 1.15.

Please be aware that we strongly recommend backing up the internal data of the X32 console on a USB thumbdrive, before upgrading to the new firmware. The upgrade process may reorganize the internal memory and erase all previous show/scene data. Restoring old show/scene data from USB on the new firmware is no problem, however.

The Version 2.0 firmware includes a number of channel, effects and routing presets that were contributed by famous X32 artists. These will be loaded when initializing the console's internal library. Make sure you have saved your own presets on USB or via X32-Edit, before you initialize the library!

Enjoy!

Best regards,
Jan

FirmwareVersion 2.04 (25 April 2014)
Note that V 2.04 is required for using the new X32-Edit 2.0 on PC/Mac/Linux computers and for the
X32-Mix 2.2 on Apple iPads (iOS 6 or 7). Notes
Improvements:
• Fix for prev/next buttons (decrement) and GO led
• Disable midi remote encoder/button when remote is disabled
• Fix for showfile import(snippet_idx offset)
• New import/export buttons for scenes and snippets
• Improved OSC server features
• Screen flicker during scene loading fixed
New Features:
• New Mix parameter in channel compressor pages allows for parallel (New York~) compression in every channel or bus
• Actual RTA source displayed on screen
• Transmission of RTA meter data over OSC

X32-Edit Version 2.0
X32-Edit V2.0 is a major update and has been re-coded in many aspects, specifically those related to
supporting the new 2.0 console firmware functions. It is providing remote access and metering for
the vast majority of the 2.0 feature set, including support for new Cue-Scene-Snippet management,
remote RTA display, support of all new effects programs and routing options, as well as control over the
new expansion cards, X-ADAT, X-DANTE and X-MADI. However, we are aware that there are some 2.0
details intended to be addressed with the next update.
New Features:
• Full compatibility with X32 console firmware V2.04 or higher
• Firmware V1.15 and V2.0 Scenes, Cues and Snippets can be managed on the console and
on the PC
• Remote editing of all new V2.0 Effects, such as Room, Rich Chamber and Rich Plate reverbs,
Rhythm and Modulation delays, Dimensional Chorus, Leisure-, Ultimo- and Fair-Compressors,
Multiband Combinator, Xtec EQ1 and EQ5, Sub Octaver, Edison EX1+ and Sound Maxer
• Remote display of the console’s RTA metering
• Configuration pages for all new X32 expansion cards, X-ADAT, X-DANTE and X-MADI
Improvements:
• Countless improvements of server communication and graphics routines
Requirements:
X32 console firmware V2.04 or higher to be installed on the console!
• X32 Edit for Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7 or Windows 8 operating system software
• X32 Edit for Mac OSX 10.6.8, 10.7, 10.8 or 10.9 operating system software
• X32 Edit for Linux operating system software, tested with Ubuntu 12.04 and Wine

X32-Mix Version 2.2
• Full compatibility with X32 console firmware V2.04 or higher
• Firmware V1.15 and V2.0 Scenes can be transferred
• Full remote editing of all new V2.0 Effects, such as Room, Rich Chamber and Rich Plate reverbs,
Rhythm and Modulation delays, Dimensional Chorus, Leisure-, Ultimo- and Fair-Compressors,
Multiband Combinator, Xtec EQ1 and EQ5, Sub Octaver, Edison EX1+ and Sound Maxer
Note: GUI support for new X32 expansion cards and specific V2.0 features, such as RTA,
XLR-Out Routing, Snippet and Cue lists, will be implemented in X32-Mix V2.3
Improvements:
General performance improvements and countless small fixes
Requirements:
Compatible with iPad® version 2 and New iPad® featuring iOS 6 or higher. Requires a wireless router
connected to X32 (fw v.2.04 min.)
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on April 25, 2014, 09:29:38 am
That's great news Jan.   I'll be updating all today.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Corey Scogin on April 25, 2014, 09:36:51 am
New Features:
• New Mix parameter in channel compressor pages allows for parallel (New York~) compression in every channel or bus

Very nice!
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on April 25, 2014, 09:40:36 am
The link to 2.04 doesn't work for me.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Corey Scogin on April 25, 2014, 09:51:36 am
The link to 2.04 doesn't work for me.

We are also busy uploading the corresponding firmware update v2.04 concurrently with all updates of X32-Edit 2.0 (Win/MacOSX/Linux) to our website.

Me either.  Maybe they're still updating the website.  Those things take time sometimes.

Unrelated but as a software developer by day, it's interesting to note the the X32-Edit executable for Windows went from 19MB to 7MB with this latest release.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: GregBass on April 25, 2014, 10:39:20 am
The link to 2.04 doesn't work for me.

Right click on download link and use "save link as". Worked for me.


Greg
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on April 25, 2014, 10:42:54 am
Right click on download link and use "save link as". Worked for me.

Greg

Bingo.  Thanks Greg

Whoops!  Spoke too soon.    It appeared to be downloading, but then got error message "Failed - No File"
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on April 25, 2014, 10:54:11 am
Dear X32 users,

I am happy to announce the availability of some firmware and application software updates

Jan, please read the rule in regard to participation and posting by manufacturers and their representatives. Please go to your profile and create a signature line that includes your connection with The Music Group.

Thanks you,

Mac
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 25, 2014, 12:02:04 pm
The only exception being unfortunately iPad 1 users, who have no choice but keeping the old app and staying with console firmware 1.15.

Sad for the loss of iPad 1 support... I'll probably be staying on 1.15 for a while longer on the one I use at church. The app works quite well on the iPad 1 with few performance issues. What was the issue with iPad 1 support? Many of the apps on mine continue to receive updates(though many more don't).
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on April 25, 2014, 12:08:11 pm
What was the issue with iPad 1 support? Many of the apps on mine continue to receive updates(though many more don't).

The iPad 1 will not run the latest Apple IOS, and that will impact a lot of Apps, not just Behringer.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: James A. Griffin on April 25, 2014, 01:44:51 pm
Update link is now fixed....
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 25, 2014, 02:25:41 pm
The iPad 1 will not run the latest Apple IOS, and that will impact a lot of Apps, not just Behringer.

Yeah I know.... It runs 5.1.1 which is 2 major versions and many minor versions back. It's just annoying that some apps get regular updates on the iPad 1 and others claim they can't update because Apple won't let them... IME with iOS app development(I made an app as a school project) once you have an app running on 5.x it's not very hard to keep it there, but my project never went live in the App Store and it was way simpler that a mixing app. :-) The main limitation I saw with developing 5.x apps is there are a number of nice development features that you can't use(the main one I noticed was the auto-layout feature); I had more trouble figuring out what to turn off to make the app work on 5.x than anything else.

In the end if I was relying on a tablet to mix regularly I'd buy a newer iPad, but I only use the mixing app occasionally(< once per month). I just hate to see another app that works well on the iPad 1 drop support for it.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 25, 2014, 02:39:15 pm
The iPad 1 will not run the latest Apple IOS, and that will impact a lot of Apps, not just Behringer.

They Changed some of the API with the newest of IOS7 updates which breaks the compatibility with older (iOS5 and maybe 6). at 4+ years old it's probably time for replacement anyway.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 25, 2014, 03:09:45 pm
They Changed some of the API with the newest of IOS7 updates which breaks the compatibility with older (iOS5 and maybe 6). at 4+ years old it's probably time for replacement anyway.

I'm hoping to get a new one this year, but I'll definitely wait to see what new models get released in the fall. I guess Apple changed the APIs pretty recently because the app I made last fall was using some iOS 7 APIs and worked with 5.x. At the time I was using the latest Xcode and API versions, but I haven't done anything with Xcode since.

I'm pretty amazed at how well the iPad 1 has held up; the battery still works well and doesn't have any problems other than being old, slow, and out of date.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 04, 2014, 03:04:59 am
James you are so correct. Who ever set up the patching on the X32 did his best but Fell very short of the mark.  As with every digital board I have used, it can be exciting to have all the processing at your finger tips, but if you need to do a dynamic effects fix for a band that does only great cover songs your are out of luck.  You can barely have time to try and change all the FX mix's when changing from say an OZZIE song to Bon-Jovi.   All you digital heads are missing the boat if you think you are going to store a 40 song set list in all your lovely pre-sets and then recall them.     UNLESS YOUR GUYS CALL AN FX MIX ONLY INSERTING IT ON THE MAIN OUT.  WHAT RUBES.
    Not to mention how much time it takes to set this up and hope the band follows the set list.   Try doing festival shows with this X32 board and you will want to kill yourself if you really care about being creative.

GIVE ME AN ANLOG BOARD AND OUTBOARD RACK!

Sounds like someone doesn't like change.

We use digital boards for festivals all the time weather the X32, M7CL or SC48 and have no issues with using digital boards for multi-band and muit-day festivals.
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 04, 2014, 11:07:46 am
James you are so correct.

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Luke Geis on July 07, 2014, 03:15:03 pm
So for some clarification on what happens when the new 2.0 firmware is shut down accidentally during a show. I had an event the other day and being that I was running a smaller bar band I did not use a dedicated UPS power source. Well just after the bands break, the power was interrupted and everything shut down. OOOPS. So I resolve the crappy connection and everything powers back up. The only thing that changed on the mixer was the master volume level. It defaults to 00 ( no level ) and everything else was just as I left it at the break.
Title: Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on July 08, 2014, 04:45:09 am
The only thing that changed on the mixer was the master volume level. It defaults to 00 ( no level ) and everything else was just as I left it at the break.

You can change that preference in the Setup button (I think) under "Safe Main Levels" or something like that. It's checked now, if you uncheck it the L-R fader won't move on power down/up.