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[Noah D Mitchell]

I've mentioned earlier in this thread that we're about to build a new permanent stage in our youth outreach center. I've built several stages over the years, most that I've been happy with, but I'm looking for some ideas about the basic construction.


So far we've sketched out the dimensions (16' deep by 29' wide), which are dictated by the size of the room. It'll be relatively low (I'm thinking about 16," again constrained by the space/use). It'll be bound on the back three sides by the existing walls, and will have one full width step down in front at 8" high.


I've already purchased stage boxes and multicore cabling to make sure we've got built in power and audio connections everywhere we need them.


As far as the actual construction, my plan is to build it in two layers: Each layer consisting of 2x8 cross beams on edge. The bottom layer will stick out in front for the step. 2' centers on the beams. 5/8 or heavier OSB deck (recommendations?), and black glue down carpet. I know the carpet isn't ideal, but is somewhat necessary for some of the uses of the room.


In the past, I've had solid brick stages (obviously no under deck piping), and wooden stages built in isolated sections to eliminate vibration transmission from side to side and front to back (ie, bass guitar vibrating the mic stands).


What are some ideal methods for making a stage like this 'solid' acoustically? We could blow in insulation, stuff it with any number of materials, someone suggested sandwiching a layer of heavy duty carpet padding in between the two layers.


Any other thoughts or suggestions? What about features you'd love built into a permanent stage? The LD really wants us to 'experiment' with piping in 'outlets' for smoke and haze.


Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Want to take the time to get this built right. It's a relatively cheap project, so it makes sense to get everything I want in at the beginning.


Thanks in advance,


Jonathan

[David Buehler]

are you saying you'll build 2 entire platforms, one stacked ontop of the other? or are you just building out the step area as a seperate but attached piece?

whats the walls on the 3 sides? drywall with studs inside or cinderblock, concrete, etc?

existing floor? is there existing carpet or other floor treatment?

[Craig Leerman]

are you saying you'll build 2 entire platforms, one stacked on top of the other?

That's what I am getting from the OP's post.

2 layers is a lot of waste. What I would do is build one stage  at the correct height, and simply add the step to the front as a separate piece.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

5/8 or heavier OSB deck (recommendations?), and black glue down carpet. I know the carpet isn't ideal, but is somewhat necessary for some of the uses of the room.


Jonathan

I'd double up on the decking.  A couple layers of 3/4 OSB laid cross-wise, glued and screwed and it's not going to vibrate much at all.

[Tim McCulloch]

I've mentioned earlier in this thread that we're about to build a new permanent stage in our youth outreach center. I've built several stages over the years, most that I've been happy with, but I'm looking for some ideas about the basic construction.


So far we've sketched out the dimensions (16' deep by 29' wide), which are dictated by the size of the room. It'll be relatively low (I'm thinking about 16," again constrained by the space/use). It'll be bound on the back three sides by the existing walls, and will have one full width step down in front at 8" high.


I've already purchased stage boxes and multicore cabling to make sure we've got built in power and audio connections everywhere we need them.


As far as the actual construction, my plan is to build it in two layers: Each layer consisting of 2x8 cross beams on edge. The bottom layer will stick out in front for the step. 2' centers on the beams. 5/8 or heavier OSB deck (recommendations?), and black glue down carpet. I know the carpet isn't ideal, but is somewhat necessary for some of the uses of the room.


In the past, I've had solid brick stages (obviously no under deck piping), and wooden stages built in isolated sections to eliminate vibration transmission from side to side and front to back (ie, bass guitar vibrating the mic stands).


What are some ideal methods for making a stage like this 'solid' acoustically? We could blow in insulation, stuff it with any number of materials, someone suggested sandwiching a layer of heavy duty carpet padding in between the two layers.


Any other thoughts or suggestions? What about features you'd love built into a permanent stage? The LD really wants us to 'experiment' with piping in 'outlets' for smoke and haze.


Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Want to take the time to get this built right. It's a relatively cheap project, so it makes sense to get everything I want in at the beginning.


Thanks in advance,


Jonathan

If you're building this in the USA, you need to check local fire codes.  In my city, it's a code violation to build hollow stages of combustible materials like wood.

It *might* be legal to line the underside with 5/8" firestop gypsum board.

The whole point is that a hollow stage provides an nice place for fires to start, build, and finally erupt from and that the stage itself is fuel for that fire.

Tim Mc

[John Livings]

I would re-think using "OSB". I would opt for 1-1/8 inch T&G Plywood.

Always run the Face Grain of your Plywood Perpendicular to the Joists.

Floor Joists 16" O.C.

Stagger the ends of the plywood so they don't all end on the same Joists.

Be sure all the "Crowns" are up on all the Floor Joists.

Use Liquid Nails and Hot Dipped Galvanized nails to hold things in place. (10d is fine)(Or deck screws)

Allow at least 1/8 of an inch of space between all edges of the Plywood.

An 8 inch Riser + carpet in to high for me, I would do 2 steps 12 inches deep each, And the "Finished" height  of all Treads should be equal.

Just my thoughts, You might want to consult a Contractor that has built Solid, Squeek Free Stages, Code Approved.

Regards,  John

[Cosmo]

Use Liquid Nails and Hot Dipped Galvanized nails to hold things in place. (10d is fine)(Or deck screws)

Liquid Nails is crap.  Use LocTite PL400 sub-floor adhesive.  +1 on deck screws.

[Royce Covington]

I've mentioned earlier in this thread that we're about to build a new permanent stage in our youth outreach center. I've built several stages over the years, most that I've been happy with, but I'm looking for some ideas about the basic construction.


So far we've sketched out the dimensions (16' deep by 29' wide), which are dictated by the size of the room. It'll be relatively low (I'm thinking about 16," again constrained by the space/use). It'll be bound on the back three sides by the existing walls, and will have one full width step down in front at 8" high.


I've already purchased stage boxes and multicore cabling to make sure we've got built in power and audio connections everywhere we need them.


As far as the actual construction, my plan is to build it in two layers: Each layer consisting of 2x8 cross beams on edge. The bottom layer will stick out in front for the step. 2' centers on the beams. 5/8 or heavier OSB deck (recommendations?), and black glue down carpet. I know the carpet isn't ideal, but is somewhat necessary for some of the uses of the room.


In the past, I've had solid brick stages (obviously no under deck piping), and wooden stages built in isolated sections to eliminate vibration transmission from side to side and front to back (ie, bass guitar vibrating the mic stands).


What are some ideal methods for making a stage like this 'solid' acoustically? We could blow in insulation, stuff it with any number of materials, someone suggested sandwiching a layer of heavy duty carpet padding in between the two layers.


Any other thoughts or suggestions? What about features you'd love built into a permanent stage? The LD really wants us to 'experiment' with piping in 'outlets' for smoke and haze.


Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Want to take the time to get this built right. It's a relatively cheap project, so it makes sense to get everything I want in at the beginning.


Thanks in advance,


Jonathan

as Tim mentioned, it would be worth your time to consult your local building official, as what may seem like an innocent project, carries some serious (post-2003) code requirements. 

i'm not sure about where you are, but around here, when building a permanent stage, it changes the occupancy classification of the building.  in your case, what might be considered a "multi-purpose" room might now be considered a theater, which presents a whole new set of requirements.  for instance, the "stage" would have to be ADA accessible and would need to be fully-sprinklered underneath AND overhead, as well as, include an integrated smoke/fire alarm system, etc.

the work-around in some recent venues has been to simply use portable staging, such as, stage-right, staging-concepts, or similar.  the advantages, saving for national fire-code compliance, are the staging can be moved, stored or reconfigured, as needed.

good luck!

R~

[Noah D Mitchell]

Thanks for all the good advice, a couple of notes:


One of our 'builders' actually works for the fire marshall, so we're keeping our noses clean as far as code/etc.

The 'two layers' questions: It seemed to me to be simpler than actually building up verticals to support trusses, especially as the total height is only 16", we'd have trusses barely (4") off the ground. But, I'm not a contractor, so maybe I'm missing something completely. We would be building a simple framework of 2x8's underneath just to support the 'top' layer, which would have all the sheeting, etc.


To David's questions: 2 of the walls (back and stage left) are 60's vintage sand mortar. The floor is painted asbestos brick (!!). When the stage is built, the entire room will be carpeted.


I like Dick's suggestion of doubling up the decking.


My concern with wooden stages is their tendency (many of the ones I've seen) to act like a big drum, and resonate. That the biggest problem I'm trying to avoid.


I saw one large stage under construction that was packed with what appeared to be some sort of dense foam, possibly foam insulation? Has anyone seen anything like that?


Thanks again for all your input,


Jonathan

[Royce Covington]

My concern with wooden stages is their tendency (many of the ones I've seen) to act like a big drum, and resonate. That the biggest problem I'm trying to avoid.


I saw one large stage under construction that was packed with what appeared to be some sort of dense foam, possibly foam insulation? Has anyone seen anything like that?


Thanks again for all your input,


Jonathan

the inherent resonance can be tamed by adding randomly spaced cross-blocking between the joists.  the joist cavities can be filled with sound-attenuating fiberglass batts (SAFB) or rockwool for deadening.  also, the more dense the deck surface, the less it will resonate, which means thicker layers or more layers.  i'm sure the rubber backed carpet finish would help also.

R~

[Mac Kerr]

As far as the actual construction, my plan is to build it in two layers: Each layer consisting of 2x8 cross beams on edge. The bottom layer will stick out in front for the step. 2' centers on the beams.

My concern with wooden stages is their tendency (many of the ones I've seen) to act like a big drum, and resonate. That the biggest problem I'm trying to avoid.

If you want to keep the floor from resonating, put more support under it than joists on 24" centers. You should go no more than 16", and may want to decrease that to 12". You may still want to go with a double layer of ply for the decking.

Mac

[John Halliburton]

If you want to keep the floor from resonating, put more support under it than joists on 24" centers. You should go no more than 16", and may want to decrease that to 12". You mat still want to go with a double layer of ply for the decking.

Mac

Definitely.   Also, to make the top deck very dead, use two layers of dissimilar sheet goods(OSB on the first layer, floor grade plywood for the top).  In between is an extra help-a damping adhesive like this:

http://www.quietrock.com/soundproof-products/damping-glue.html

Even though they intend it for drywall sandwiches, I suspect it will work on sheet goods for a stage deck.  Plus, if you use 1/2" thick sheet goods, your total deck is thicker, stronger, and deader than a single layer of 3/4" sheet goods.

Best regards,

John

[Dan Mortensen]

I'll second the idea to make the spacing of your supports less than 24", and when you say the 2x8 supports will be edge, I would want the 8" side parallel to the stage surface. (Upon rereading, I now get the part about two layers; that seems wasteful to me, using more 2x8 than necessary. Making it the traditional way, like you would frame a house, lets you use 2x4's, which may or may not be cheaper.)

When I built my last stage, we used two layers of high density (this is important!) 1" (or was it 3/4"? -don't remember) particle board with 2x4 supports on 12" centers underneath with the 4" parallel to the stage surface. Because we needed the use of the stage to be as flexible as possible, and because the previous stage was carpeted which collected gum, stains, and other nastiness, our top surface was 1/8" masonite (shiny side up) tacked down with brads, with a slight gap on each edge to allow for expansion. We bought a bunch of 5'x3' carpets for when we needed a carpeted stage.

That thing was DEAD acoustically, and supported without quiver 9' pianos, lots of backline, wall-to-wall people dancing crazily, and anything else we threw at it. A mop easily cleaned all the spilled beer, and I left before we had to replace any of the top sections, which would have been easy to do, since they were just tacked down.

Stomping on it gave you exactly the same sound that you would get from stomping on concrete.

Good luck with your project,
Dan

[Erik Jerde]

Thanks for all the good advice, a couple of notes:


One of our 'builders' is actually the assistant fire marshal in our county, so we're keeping our noses clean as far as code/etc. He and his boss have been involved in the build out of this old (1960) post office into a church for the last 6 years.

That's a nice situation to be in.  Just be sure you get an inspection signed off on just in case.

[Noah D Mitchell]

...with 2x4 supports on 12" centers underneath with the 4" parallel to the stage surface...

Dan this sounds odd to me, maybe you can shed a little additional light. Having the 4" parallel to the surface would (it seems) invite a lot of sagging across the span. How long were your spans? We'll potentially have 16', which could be subdivided into 8' or 4' sections, but even at 4' a 2x4 set flat will have a lot of flex.


Thanks for all the input,


Jonathan

[Mac Kerr]

...with 2x4 supports on 12" centers underneath with the 4" parallel to the stage surface...

Dan this sounds odd to me, maybe you can shed a little additional light. Having the 4" parallel to the surface would (it seems) invite a lot of sagging across the span. How long were your spans? We'll potentially have 16', which could be subdivided into 8' or 4' sections, but even at 4' a 2x4 set flat will have a lot of flex.

Thanks for all the input,

He means to build the supports like a 2x4 stud wall. You have a 2x4 plate flat on the floor, 2x4 studs on 16" centers, and a 2x4 plate at the top.

Mac

[Noah D Mitchell]

...He means to build the supports like a 2x4 stud wall. You have a 2x4 plate flat on the floor, 2x4 studs on 16" centers, and a 2x4 plate at the top...

Gotcha - makes sense now - thanks for the clarification, Mac!

[Noah D Mitchell]

...Because we needed the use of the stage to be as flexible as possible, and because the previous stage was carpeted which collected gum, stains, and other nastiness, our top surface was 1/8" masonite (shiny side up) tacked down with brads, with a slight gap on each edge to allow for expansion...

Resurrecting this old thread to ask about stage surfaces. We've done carpet in the past, and I like Dan's idea of the masonite - any other ideas?


Thanks in advance,

[Charlie Zureki]

...Because we needed the use of the stage to be as flexible as possible, and because the previous stage was carpeted which collected gum, stains, and other nastiness, our top surface was 1/8" masonite (shiny side up) tacked down with brads, with a slight gap on each edge to allow for expansion...

Resurrecting this old thread to ask about stage surfaces. We've done carpet in the past, and I like Dan's idea of the masonite - any other ideas?


Thanks in advance,

   Hello,

  Yeah...skip the particle board and osb. They have a tendancy to absorb moisture.  Use plywood, double sheets, staggered joints, glued and screwed.

  As TIm wrote in a previous post.... Fire Codes...follow them. It doesn't matter if the Fire Chief looks the other way or even approves a structure that's not quite correct.  If there's an incident....the Chief  or Code official is immune from prosecution in most States. 
 
  Hammer
 

 

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