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[josh cohen]

found a builder in northern louisiana

what are your opinions on the tuba 36 subs?

[Les Webb]

josh sense wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 10:32

found a builder in northern louisiana what are your opinions on the tuba 36 subs?

i think thier teh best wons eva!!!    

I'll get you that quote as soon as I can Josh, sorry for the delay.

Les

[Jeff Babcock]

If your intended use is DJ work then T36 may be an ok choice.  Those are very large horns.  They tend to have a dip in the kick drum range, but go pretty low, and of course perform much better in multiples.  I have not heard the 36 (I have heard other models) but I believe they have been tested at shootouts before.  Performance will not be as good as a Lab sub, but on the other hand it will be much cheaper to build and be significantly lighter in weight.

[Les Webb]

Jeff Babcock wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 17:59

If your intended use is DJ work then T36 may be an ok choice.  Those are very large horns.  They tend to have a dip in the kick drum range, but go pretty low, and of course perform much better in multiples.  I have not heard the 36 (I have heard other models) but I believe they have been tested at shootouts before.  Performance will not be as good as a Lab sub, but on the other hand it will be much cheaper to build and be significantly lighter in weight.

I own/have built a whole herd of 'em.  The one thing they sound absolutely best on is kick drum.  I have not heard a sub sound better on kick and I've heard many dual 18's and horn loaded subs, most of the big name players.  I have not heard Labs however.  

[Jeff Babcock]

Hi Les,
I'm not saying they will sound bad on kick, just that typical Tuba freq response (at least that I have seen measured NOT on the BFM site) has a dip right at the fundamental freq of many kicks. This is one of the reasons why Mr. Fitzmaurice recommends Titans over Tubas for live music.

I have found the charts on the BFM site to be less peaky than actual measured subs at events.  Look at the T48 for example which Leland brought to the recent sub shootout in Tulsa.  I think Leland was somewhat surprised.  The results were similar to the site but certainly more peaky.  He brought a pair so I wouldn't suspect a faulty build.

In multiples peakiness will smooth out anyway, and I don't doubt at all that you can get a very good sounding kick with T36's.  The top box will be a big factor too.  I have some T48's, and while they are good, I have certainly heard better, abeit considerably more expensive subs.  Of course I have no T36 to compare to.  One big factor is that there are many options when building the T36, so that is an issue in knowing if we can really compare apples to apples.

What variation of the T36 is Josh looking at?  The dual 15" version would be a bass monster, although physically huge.

I presume the T36's value is much like the T48 - a highly efficient sub that gives the end user with a modest budget the ability to get performance comparable to many of the big boys, in some cases better, albeit not the absolute top of the heap. There are minor comprimises in Bill's designs based on using stock Eminence drivers, which of course keeps costs down and makes things generally more DIY friendly.  Labs had a custom driver designed, 12Pi uses that driver but adds cooling and other variations on it, Bassmax sure isn't using low power eminence drivers.  Not dissing eminence, I have no issue with them, but I'm sure specs could be better with a higher output custom driver specific to the design.  

I know the T48 does not perform quite as well as a Danley TH115 in terms of low extension, smoothness, and overall impact, but the difference in sound quality is nowhere near as great as the difference in price.  T36 should be a similar story.  I really doubt it could hang in there with something like a Bassmaxx Deuce, Lab, 12Pi etc in overall output and in lowest distortion figures but who cares when you can have a fleet of them at a fraction of the price?  Most people will benefit more in the extra $$ to invest elsewhere in their rig.

BTW, nicest kick drum I ever heard was on an Adamson line array.  Adamson rigs are bloody expensive but I have yet to hear someone complain about their recent stuff.

My 2c.  Josh what is your intended use?

Jeff

[Les Webb]

To each his own I guess. I've heard very few line arrays with decent sound.  Most of these were undoubtably due to operator error as I've heard a few of them sound really good and the same line arrays sound like complete crap somewhere else.

When MercyMe came through the local Civic Center their kick drum was excellent but the rest of the array was spotty at best, unitelligible at worst.

Went to an ATF event at the Dallas Arena with Skillet, Flyleaf, Grits, and Kari Jobe as worship leader.  Everything from Worship music to Metal to Rap. Sound was complete crap for most all the event. Huge line array and PM 5D's everywhere.

Back to the shootout

Comparing sizes in horn subs must be done IMO to have equality in results.  I could build a 60" wide Titan 48 with 4 15" speakers and call it a single sub.  It would blow away most anything out there.  But you would need a forklift to move it.  

The 12pi is a great sub, but it is almost exactly twice the size of a Titan 48.  It has two 12" Eminence drivers the Titan 48 has a single 15" Eminence driver. To compare them equally would be to compare 2 to 1 IMO.  Power handling, smoothness, and lower extension all start to equal out at this stage.

That's my .02 cents

Les

[peter.golde]

Jeff Babcock wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 14:51

...  T36 should be a similar story.  I really doubt it could hang in there with something like a Bassmaxx Deuce, Lab, 12Pi etc in overall output and in lowest distortion figures but who cares when you can have a fleet of them at a fraction of the price?  Most people will benefit more in the extra $$ to invest elsewhere in their rig.

lb for lb, volume for volume, drivers for drivers, the T36 can HANG in there with any of the above mentioned subs. The differences between them are small, they all have great performance. The difference in cost is debatable. Pay more money up front for a name, better return on investment if planning to sell, DIY start making money right away with little investment, use for firewood when done.
BTW, kick doesn't come from subs, with these monsters of clean low output (all subs mentioned), you better have some kicking midbass, single front load 15's don't cut it.

[Wayne Parham]

Les Webb wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 21:31

The 12pi is a great sub, but it is almost exactly twice the size of a Titan 48.  It has two 12" Eminence drivers the Titan 48 has a single 15" Eminence driver. To compare them equally would be to compare 2 to 1 IMO.  Power handling, smoothness, and lower extension all start to equal out at this stage.

We would have measured doubles if we had time.  Maybe next year we'll schedule two hours per box so we can do multiples.

To compare a pair of Titan's, use the chart of a single Titan and add 6dB if comparing at a constant voltage level or 3dB if comparing at a constant power level.

Be sure and compare SPL and distortion at max power levels too.  You'll notice that the differences increase as power levels are increased.

Ripple will smooth some when using a pair of Titans, but if previous measurements are any indication, I think you need more than a pair of Fitzmaurice basshorns to get mouth size up enough to really see much smoother response.  So I think response shape will be about the same.

• Comparison of systems

[josh cohen]

im with les on this one.

keep in mind that my market is mainly EDM (electronic music) shows, specificly house music and drum n bass.. a few other co-horts of mine from a :flame:dj:flame: forum that play/produce events of the same style have nothing but good things to say about the 36's in pairs, quartets, or ... sextuplets?


right now price is the key. i can have 2 tuba 36's signed sealed and (picked up) for the cost of 1 jtr growler. (and i can have all the business handled within the great state of louisiana)


if i was doing more LIVE sound reinforcement the growlers would remain my first choice, especially with their compact size and huge sound, but right now my market is growing faster than i can upgrade to growlers.

[Wayne Parham]

I think both the Fitzmaurice and Growler subs are excellent products for their intended market.  They're perfect for medium size shows that are larger than what direct radiators can handle but smaller than outdoor gigs or large arenas.

JTR is a commercial product, and with that comes warranties and product support.  Their products are cut out on a CNC machine and assembled by the factory.  A sound company can pick up the phone and call Jeff, and he'll provide before and after sale support.

Fitmaurice subs are DIY, which is a little bit different market.  The people building Fitzmaurice boxes are do-it-yourselfer's, like the people building LABhorns or some of my speakers.  They're looking for bang-for-the-buck, and are willing to trade sweat equity for it.  I think the authorized builders and flat pack kits make a sort of crossover segment, and that's cool too.

Both Fitzmaurice subs and Growlers are fine products for their intended markets, in my opinion.

[Jeff Babcock]

For that style of music T36 should work great.  BTW, There is a considerable difference between MSRP and actual cost on Growlers, that's very impressive if you can get 2 T36 for the cost of 1 Growler.  Les must really like Josh.  That's an almost stupidly good deal.

Anyway, I'm not looking for some sort of debate, I built some Titans myself and they work fine with my B rig.  They have lots of output.  If Josh has already heard T36 and is happy with their sound, that's perfect, and did I already say A GREAT PRICE!

I guess a lot of my comments re T36 are moot since I have not heard that particular Tuba model.

Re the Titans, I think Wayne is being pretty modest in his comments here.  I don't think 2 Titans = 1 12Pi.... close maybe in some respects, but very different in low end extension and especially in distortion.  Also from my experience of Labs there is a noticeable difference in perceived "sound" vs Titans, regardless of measurements.  I do prefer the "sound" of a lab (and I presume 12Pi should only be an improvement on this).  I am by no means a fanboy of Wayne, Tom Danley, Bill Fitz, or others.  Each has found a good niche, and their designs in some respect are driven by their end user group.  

Take the weight and size of subs into consideration.... Bill Fitz's subs are typically significantly lighter than others... many BFM builders don't have a crew to haul heavy gear in.  But that comes with a penalty.  I really doubt that Wayne and Tom D are completely oblivious to the fact that their subs are typically much heavier and in some cases larger than Bill's.

I know I would not put my Titans on a truck and send them out on a national tour, they would likely get very beaten up and I wouldn't trust the 3015LF to survive so much abuse (I like the 3015LF, but even though I have never had one fail, I still have a hard time trusting it and am very careful with them).  That's fine though, it's usually ME running them, and so they don't get abused.

Anyway, again I have no issue here, these are all VERY good subs we are talking about.  I have no intention to discredit any of them, they all fit a niche and are in many cases considerably better than many commercial offerings.  I did not mean to open up a can of worms.

Josh, the T36 should work very well for you.

[Jeff Babcock]

peter.golde wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 22:54

lb for lb, volume for volume, drivers for drivers, the T36 can HANG in there with any of the above mentioned subs. The differences between them are small, they all have great performance. The difference in cost is debatable. Pay more money up front for a name, better return on investment if planning to sell, DIY start making money right away with little investment, use for firewood when done. BTW, kick doesn't come from subs, with these monsters of clean low output (all subs mentioned), you better have some kicking midbass, single front load 15's don't cut it.

Peter, I don't doubt they can come close, but look at Bassmaxx Deuce as an example.  Does well on the SPL chart (see the recent sub shootout results vs T48) in terms of efficiency, Handles 2000 watts, 4000 Peak, 144db max output roughly.  Yes it takes a lot of extra power to get more output, but hey, 3015LF drivers are only 450W, 900 Peak.  Put 2 3015's in a cabinet and you still have less than half the power handling of a Deuce with no better overall efficiency.  The difference will not be huge, but certainly an extra 1100 watts will give more output.

[peter.golde]

Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 25 October 2007 11:21

peter.golde wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 22:54 lb for lb, volume for volume, drivers for drivers, the T36 can HANG in there with any of the above mentioned subs. The differences between them are small, they all have great performance. The difference in cost is debatable. Pay more money up front for a name, better return on investment if planning to sell, DIY start making money right away with little investment, use for firewood when done. BTW, kick doesn't come from subs, with these monsters of clean low output (all subs mentioned), you better have some kicking midbass, single front load 15's don't cut it. Peter, I don't doubt they can come close, but look at Bassmaxx Deuce as an example.  Does well on the SPL chart (see the recent sub shootout results vs T48) in terms of efficiency, Handles 2000 watts, 4000 Peak, 144db max output roughly.  Yes it takes a lot of extra power to get more output, but hey, 3015LF drivers are only 450W, 900 Peak.  Put 2 3015's in a cabinet and you still have less than half the power handling of a Deuce with no better overall efficiency.  The difference will not be huge, but certainly an extra 1100 watts will give more output.

First, I would use 4015's over 3015's for the ability to take more abuse, power, and if you look at the spl charts of Wayne's shootout, there is virtually no difference in output between 800 watts and 1600 watts, waste of power in my opinion.

[Jeff Babcock]

It does yield a couple extra db.  Whether that matters or not is subjective.  However looking at the 800W measurements, the Titan is beaten considerably at 40Hz by a lot more than could be made up by adding a 2nd cab, and again from roughly 70-90Hz.

Keep in mind again I own some Titans, I'm not trying to discredit them..... it just seems it competes more closely with the Growler than the Trip or 12Pi.

[Hank Staples]

Josh,

I will chime in here.....I have used a set of Les's tubas and they are really good at what they do. I can't remember what they were loaded with...it's been a while!    And as far as the builder goes.....Les is a great guy too!    Now if I could just figure out why he hates to run my monitor board???

[josh cohen]

Hank Staples wrote on Thu, 25 October 2007 23:03

Josh, I will chime in here.....I have used a set of Les's tubas and they are really good at what they do. I can't remember what they were loaded with...it's been a while!    And as far as the builder goes.....Les is a great guy too!    Now if I could just figure out why he hates to run my monitor board???

my 'backup tech + truck guy is a general contractor who is also a carpenter/cabinet maker and has all the necessary tools and sparetime. we're gonna start on 2 t36's when he gets back in town

[peter.golde]

Just to throw another wrench in the works, keeping in spirit of the LAB, if you look at the charts for the dual 4012 driver Tuba30's, they have huge output vs the T36 and are physically smaller than the Tuba36. If size matters, I would go with the dual driver T30.

[Dave Rickard]

josh sense wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 02:09

my 'backup tech + truck guy is a general contractor who is also a carpenter/cabinet maker and has all the necessary tools and sparetime. we're gonna start on 2 t36's when he gets back in town

My cabinet maker friend made me promise NOT to ask him to build a fourth T30.  

[Mike {AB} Butler]

Dave Rickard wrote on Sat, 26 April 2008 02:29

josh sense wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 02:09 my 'backup tech + truck guy is a general contractor who is also a carpenter/cabinet maker and has all the necessary tools and sparetime. we're gonna start on 2 t36's when he gets back in town My cabinet maker friend made me promise NOT to ask him to build a fourth T30.

 
Dave,
I have had many cabinetmaker types who claim they can "build anything" that absolutely vow never to build another speaker - after they get through with a trap, horn, or some exotic variant. (I still think of the guy who built me 6 matching cabinets in a double trap configuration.. sides at 30 degrees, top and bottom at 15 degrees..   )
It's not as fun to work on a project of that veracity.. without knowing what the end result will be like. When cutting out and assembling even the most brutal cabinet jobs, the thing that gets me though it all is the fact that when all is done, I will get to make some terrific racket..  
Regards,

[josh cohen]

going with 4 tuba 36 probably 24 wide

[Reginald Dennery]

I built 2 last year loaded with delta 15lf. They sound great. 50 times better than the CV Afterburners I had. Im about to build either 2 or 4 more before summer is out.
Best bang for the buck

[Michael Gee]

Yo FACE! What you doing on here, son? (LOL) I gotta hear those things! Hit me up!