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[John Mark]

Hi all,

I'm the AV guy at small church located in Florida.
I am excited to mess with sound board but I have no idea what I'm doing, and I will appreciate any advise you have.

Current setup:
Mixer: Mackie 1642 VLZ3
Speakers: Mackie SRM450v2 x 2

- We currently have 3 cheap mics, 1 for MC/choir, 1 choir, and one for Piano.
- Guitar is using an amp
- Drum is alone.
- Church fits about 100 guests
- 2 main choir girls
- Adult choir

We have basic mics and I just placed an order from Musicians Friend for a better mic. I think I went a bit overboard and purchased a Shure 58A.

- Shure Beta 58A x2
- Gear One XLR Microphone Cable Regular 20 Feet x2090 03
- Musicians Gear MS-220 Tripod Mic Stand with Fixed Boom Regular Black x2

Total for $296.10
I also purchased a 2 year warranty from Musicians Friend for $44.99

Now, the question I want to ask is... Is this a good purchase?
We are a small church, fits about 100 guests. The two choir girls are not professional, although I think they are good in my opinion. For the adult choir, they are so-so. The reason I went for this mic is because the current mic does not pick up voices of the adult choir, and honestly I lost against the hype that came from others.

What do you guys think? Is this a good purchase?
(In case you're wondering, I bought the above items using my own money and will be donating it to church).

Thank you for your time.

[Mike Spitzer]

One potential problem I see is the Beta 58. It's a good quality mic, but it's also supercardioid, which means it'll lose its ability to track sound that's off-axis. A supercardoid mic is nice when you have a single singer who can consistently "eat the mic." Because the sound is so directional, it doesn't pick up a lot of extraneous noise and you're able to pull the gain up a lot more before feeding back.

So, basically, if you're planning on having the singers share the mic, it's probably not a good idea. If you got them for both of the girls to use separately, it should work great, but make sure their mic placement is consistent and on-axis.

If you need the mic to pick up a choir, it's probably not a good pick. If you like Shure, look at something like an SM94. It'll pick up the choir from farther away and still be clear. Play with placement until you get it right.

One thing with the SM94 is that it requires power. If I remember right, the mixer you're using has only one phantom power button for the whole board. As long as you don't have anything plugged in that could be hurt by that, you should be fine turning phantom power on. Otherwise, use a battery in the mic.

-mS

[John Fiorello]

- Shure Beta 58A x2
- Gear One XLR Microphone Cable Regular 20 Feet x2090 03
- Musicians Gear MS-220 Tripod Mic Stand with Fixed Boom Regular Black x2

Total for $296.10
I also purchased a 2 year warranty from Musicians Friend for $44.99

If I understand you right, you're thinking that the 2 girls will each sing into 1 mic, right?  If that's the case, the 58's will be great.  If you're doing what Mike thinks you're doing (aka, sharing 2 people on 1 mic) than not so great.

If I read your entry right, it looks like you ordered 209,003 cables for your mics... that might be a bit much.  Kidding aside, the cables and stands will be fine, I'm sure.  Basic stuff.

The warranty on the other hand, I'm not so sure it's worth it.  It's up to you, if you want to use it and it covers your cables, meh, the mics are pretty indestructible so... I wouldn't have gotten it, but if you want that extra layer of protection, it's your call.


JF

[Arnold B. Krueger]

One potential problem I see is the Beta 58. It's a good quality mic, but it's also supercardioid, which means it'll lose its ability to track sound that's off-axis.

I have a nice collection of hypercardiod/suercardiod mics, and I find the above to be a vast overstatement of the actual directivity of these mics.

I you check the  polar plots of typical cardioid and hyper/supercardiod mics, you'll find that the cardioids typically are only about 3 dB down at +/- 90 degrees while the super/hyper cardioids are 3 dB down at about +/- 60 degrees.  To put this into perspective, 3 dB down is not very much attenuation, its actually just a slightly audible attenuation.  +/- 90 degrees is a full hemisphere of coverage (IOW everthing that is between the sides of the mic), while +/- 60 degrees is still the majority of the area in front of the mic.

A person speaking into the *side* of a cardioid mic (pretty radical, eh?)  is only barely audibly attenuated, while the super/hyper cardiod narrows this very broad acceptance angle by only about 1/3.   3 people can easily share a typical cardioid while 2 people can still share a hyper/super cardiod.
[/quote]

[Mike Spitzer]

I don't use many hyper/supercardioid mics because of my previous experience with them. With the Beta 58 I've used, at 90 degrees, the vocals were almost completely gone (-10 to -20 dB). My experience there is really limited, though, so it could have been that mic or just the few I've messed with. For that reason, I tend to just use them for singers who have demonstrated good mic control and stick to condenser mics for things like choir pickups.

You're right, though. I probably shouldn't make such a broad statement.

-mS

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I have a nice collection of hypercardiod/suercardiod mics, and I find the above to be a vast overstatement of the actual directivity of these mics.

I you check the  polar plots of typical cardioid and hyper/supercardiod mics, you'll find that the cardioids typically are only about 3 dB down at +/- 90 degrees while the super/hyper cardioids are 3 dB down at about +/- 60 degrees.  To put this into perspective, 3 dB down is not very much attenuation, its actually just a slightly audible attenuation.  +/- 90 degrees is a full hemisphere of coverage (IOW everthing that is between the sides of the mic), while +/- 60 degrees is still the majority of the area in front of the mic.

A person speaking into the *side* of a cardioid mic (pretty radical, eh?)  is only barely audibly attenuated, while the super/hyper cardiod narrows this very broad acceptance angle by only about 1/3.   3 people can easily share a typical cardioid while 2 people can still share a hyper/super cardiod.

Speaking of "vast overstatements".....or at least painting the product with a broad brush......

Citing the 3dB down points must be qualified by stating the frequency at which the measurement is to be taken.  Here are a couple of links to the cardioid Shure SM58:

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/public/documents/webcontent/us_pro_sm58_specsheet.pdf

and the super-cardioid Shure Beta 58A:

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/public/documents/webcontent/us_pro_beta58_specsheet.pdf.pdf

If you compare the polar plots of the two you will notice that the LF response of the supercardioid mic is noticeably diminished off-axis.  This helps to explain the "thin" off-axis quality of tighter pattern mics compared to cardioid mics.

So I would suggest that it is as much a question of "quality" of sound off-axis as it is of "quantity" of sound.  While the amount of sound may be close, the "sweet spot" of the cardioid mic is definitely broader.  So in my experience the cardioid microphone will yield somewhat better results or at least be easier to use, especially for multiple, less experienced vocalists.

Both will work.  I'd choose the cardioid.

[Arnold B. Krueger]

If you compare the polar plots of the two you will notice that the LF response of the supercardioid mic is noticeably diminished off-axis.  This helps to explain the "thin" off-axis quality of tighter pattern mics compared to cardioid mics.

I think you've missed a very strong point in the documentation that you cite. Compare and contrast the on-axis response of the two mics. Blazingly obvious is the fact that the Cardiod is shown as being flat refereced to 1KHz down to 100 Hz, while the supercardiod is about 6 dB down at 100 Hz referenced to the same 1 KHz.

the sound source changes. IOW, a skilled vocalist can "work" the more directional  mic with stronger audible effects.

Furthermore, the assertion that the mics differ more in terms of directivity at low frequencies is questionable as the polar curves for both mics are within about 3 dB up into the 1-2 KHz region.

The suprcardiod is going to be the far easier to mic to live with in suboptimal situations that are often more prone to feedback.

People who have most of their expereince in churches with well-designed sound systems and rooms will probably prefer the cardioid because they don't need its advantages.   

Those of us who are forced to work in marginal rooms that were purpose-built for piano, organ and choir music and vocalists and speakers with loud voices tend to see the more directional mics as survival tools.  In ad hoc setups, the more directional mic is the better tool for most of us.

It turns out that my main room at church is so badly laid out and has to run so many mics that the more directional mics rule.

When I set up a sound system someplace else in the church I rarely have to inflict on myself what I'm forced to swallow in my primary room. I generally enjoy the benefits of cardiods including non-critical usage because of the broad acceptance angle and reduced proximity effect. But, I carry along a few hypercardioids, just in case.

[Brian Ehlers]

Back to John's original question -- regardless of pick-up pattern or Beta vs. non-Beta, none of the Shure 58 mics are ideal for mic'ing a choir.  These mics are voiced to be used as hand-held, or on a stand at most maybe 2 feet away from a vocalist or two.  Using them further away will give you a thin sound.  Not that I've never used some SM58s to mic a choir mind you, but it's not ideal.  As was mentioned, an SM94 (or similar) would be a better choice.  On the other hand, since a 94 doesn't have a pop filter, you would have to worry about someone grabbing it and trying to use it up close.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that tbe Beta 58s you bought are a fine mic and a good start to a collection of a dozen or so different mics you will eventually own to cover different purposes.   

[chuck clark]

58 is a great mic. Designed for handheld close-up use. Can be used on 2 people fine. They just have to be willing to get close to each other!

If you buy something that says Behringer on it, buying the extra warranty will make the salesman break a sweat. If it says "SHURE" on it, you are probly wasting your money. They are some of the most durable pieces of equipment I have EVER owned. I have some 20 yr old 58's that look like crap and still work great! Have a lovely week.
Chuck

[Mike Spitzer]

I have some 20 yr old 58's that look like crap and still work great! Have a lovely week.
Chuck

I've seen the 58's dropped, run over and everything else. A couple of times we've had to replace the screens because they got bent, but the mic itself was fine. They're definitely an excellent quality.

And really, like Brian said, even if this mic doesn't work out for what you're wanting, the quality means you haven't wasted your money. You will find a use for it and it'll perform well for you.

-mS

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