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Author Topic: EONA ADRaudio merged  (Read 54131 times)

Ales Dravinec 'Alex'

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Re: EONA ADRaudio Review #2
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2007, 09:09:31 am »

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Tue, 15 May 2007 13:48

...What's the black panel below the thingie below your dbx?...


Isn't it a 2U drawer  Confused

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Put the Bennie where the Furman was.


Amazing how certain equipment catches 'pet' name so swiftly

A
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Ales Dravinec
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Danny Mullins

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Re: EONA ADRaudio Review #2
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2007, 09:24:56 am »

Yes that is a rack drawer below the Digi 002. I have a larger soft side tote that the Bennie travels in. I use the Digi 002 to do some live recording at certian gigs, I didn't have my mac set up with it that night.

Just water in the glass, drank a lot of it that night.
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Erik Dam

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Re: EONA ADRaudio Review #2
« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2007, 03:57:51 pm »

Hi All

Sorry Danny, for a little thread hi-jack, but Bennetts original thread has become a wee bit long...

In the first ADR thread, I promised I'd post my comparison between my 'normal' Turbosound TQ445DP/TQ425DP setup and the ADR U103/ATA118 (or ATA218) combo - here it is:  

First of all: If any of you Danish Labsters are interested in a demo of these speakers, just get in touch. contact info can be found at www.onstage-online.dk

Second: Thanks to Ales and Franci for providing the demo-rig and for stellar support.

First, I've been really pleased with the Q-light speakers. I've never really liked Turbosound, but these are actually very good speakers and extremely versatile. They are worth comparing to the U103 for two reasons: 1) they cost the same, almost to the penny, and 2) they try to solve the same problems and come up with very different solutions. You can see the details at Turbos and ADR's homepages, but the short version is that the Turbo TQ445DP is a bi-amp class D, 3-way design (12"coax + 6" hornloaded mid) with 96/24 DSP, while the U103's are a bi-amp ICE Power, two-way (10"+1,4")all analog design.

These two systems a virtually night and day. The Turbos are insanely loud - nothing can touch them in terms of dB's per cubic meter (they are almost the same size as the U103, only slightly wider of course). We proved this later on after a few beers, when we came up with the brilliant idea of putting all the subs together (1x ATA118, 1x ATA218 and one Turbo TQ425DP pr side) and putting one TQ445DP on top - and they very nearly kept up! We measured 124dB's at 6 meters.....

Both systems try to tackle excellent vocal reproduction, The Turbos with the 6" inch driver, The ADR's with a very warm focused frequency response and even dispersion. The techs there unanimously decided that for rock'n'roll, the TQ445 would be the best bet, but for everything else we would most likely prefer the U103. The dispersion is a major problem with the 445, due to the odd design. I did a cosumer-fair last month with a U103/ATA218 combo and both us and the visiting techs were amazed at the uniformity of the sound image, you could walk the entire hall (1000 capacity when empty) and as long as you stayed within the coverage area, all that changed was essentially the SPL. With the Turbos we would have gotten good results too, but we would also have had to fight low mid build-ups at the center and poor, 'jumping' coverage in the outer parts of the audience area. With the ADR's we got better sound with less effort.

In short: The TQ445 was built to be a do-it-all box, and by choosing the odd-ball 3-way design, heavy DSP capacity was needed. The end result is a really good speaker with very good intelligibility (I hate that word) and unsurpassed SPL capacity, but with dispersion/phase issues and limited arrayability.

The ADR U103 was designed with pretty much the same goal, but with a very different approach: emphasis is on good solid engineering with a KISS 2-way design with very high quality drivers and a big, wide dispersion horn. Innovation is there in form of ICE powerpacks and 'retro' analog electronics. The result is essentially a much more neutral speaker, with extremely even dispersion pattern. You could almost describe the sonic difference as the Turbos being 'digital' and the ADR's being 'tube-like'. The trade-off is lower SPL capacity and shorter throw. Arrayability was not tested, but I think it is fair to say that the U103 would be the winner in that category.

The (prototype) U103 we got had two shortcomings:
1) the noise floor. They are really noisy, enough so to make them attract negative attension at, say, theatre gigs. Ales has told that this is being fixed by changing to a better quality op-amp.

2) If you don't use the ASI integrator, be ABSOLUTELY sure that your source has a balanced output, otherwise you will nothing but hum. This is pro-level gear, sure, but it is not particular combat audio friendly. With the ASI, no problem.

Actually, the U103 is hard to demo. As I mentioned, they lack that LTL smiley-face sound most techs expect from their PA's, but in real life usage they provide a blank canvas that is extremely easy to mix on: You have to try very hard to make them sound bad, and with a minimum of effort they will sound fantastic.

The Turbo and ADR subs are also very different beasts. The ADR's goes a LOT deeper than the TQ425DP, almost 3/4 octave according to the spec sheets, On the other hand the Turbos have more clarity in the 60 -100 Hz range and significantly more punch, pretty much what you'd expect from 18" subs vs. 15" sub. We got killer results by combining them, by the way, making us guess that an ATA412 + ATA218 combo would sound pretty spectacular.... The cardioid pattern of the ATA218 has been a plus in every application so far! Ales claims an 18dB difference between front and rear. I'put that figure somewhat lower, but still impressive and useful - and done without DSP!

The ADR's really comes through when pushed: The Turbo subs simply looses dynamic range and starts to rumble in a not particularly pleasing manner (they are bloody loud, though), The ADR's limiters acts more like a slow-attack compressor, so that, for instance, a kick drum will remain a kick drum even at very high SPL's and the box flashing brightly. Very well done indeed. I would like to have a bit more clarity, as they tend to rumble a bit, but the LF extension and dynamic range are really really impressive, probably the best I've heard in any PA sub.

One thing we've noticed over time is that these boxes, both tops and subs, fare much better with live material than canned music -  luckily Smile :

The warm 'anti-PA' character of the U103 could lead you think that it could become muddy and unclear 'in real life'. I deliberately tried it out with some jazz vocals using KMS105 mics, thinking that this might make any problems in the low mids fairly apparent. With a flat channelstrip-eq and no outboard, apart from the ASI23, everything was exactly as it should be: warm, clear and transparent. Sometimes it's easy being the sound guy Smile

I think that was it....

Erik
On Stage
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EONA ADRaudio

Jamie Taylor

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Eona M1225 review
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2007, 07:26:31 am »

Alrighty.

After going out on a few small tours with another Lab regular (Dylan Shepherd) using the Eona U103's and ATA 118'sand the M1225's, I got the chance to mix monitors on them at a local radio station gig, with mid-large local band Thirsty Merc.

The set up was your regular rock band set up, with Bass/vocals on stage left, Vocals/guitar/keys and guitar/vocals on stage right.  I was using single M1225's for the frontline monitors, with a U103 and a ATA118 for drumfill.  I had two sidefill monitors, but these were AT Showstacks.

My first impression of these monitors is how incredibly light they are.  Compared to my favourite monitors to work with (the Clair 12AM's) they're practically feathers.

When I eventually got to tune them, they were remarkably flat...from memory I had to take about 2db out of about 4 frequencies for the m1225's...and that gave me heaps of headroom for the band, who liked it loud (they did start feeding when the support act, a bunch of dancing girls, started pointing wireless 58's into them....but that was my oversight).

I'd still love to really put some volume throught them (with a local metal band)...but for the size and the weight, they're great.

Pro's:

- light, really light.
- quite flat.

Con's:

- expensive, but you really get for what you pay for (and though it would cost about the same for an amp and crossover, you can use them for other boxes)
- not as loud as other wedges.
- Seem to scratch easily.

Overall, they're great boxes, and are definetly on my 'to watch' list.  It would be interesting to hear the larger line arrays.

And on another note, on one of the shows we did, we had no stands for some Mac's, so to our disgust, we had to make the most expensive light stand ever:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g72/jamie_au/100_0966.jpg
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Josh Evans

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Re: Eona M1225 review
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2007, 02:39:32 am »

Hey folks,

Couple of quick things.  These look like some really good products.  
However I do not see anything mentioned on a PIN1 test.  Is Pin one connected to the chasi?   Also Im assuming a universal power supply.  Will they work over seas?  

That small coax monitor looks interesting there are not many coax monitors that are powered availible in the market that I know of.

The only thing I see missing is a place to stick a leg from a tripod stand like the rat wedge which is really rad.

The SMAART print screens look good, however coherence isnt shown so  and im not sure really how this measurement was taken.  You could also use a time window measurement.

While were talking about measurements and monitors as any one ever done an alignment adding delay to the monitors to have a phase cancellation at the microphone I think a set up like attached might work.

Great forumindex.php/fa/9341/0/!

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Joshua Evans

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Mike Pyle

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Re: Eona M1225 review
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2007, 02:44:53 am »

I'm assuming the objective here would be to silence some of the gawdawful screamers using the mics? That would be great!

Very Happy
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Mike Pyle
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Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound

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Re: Eona M1225 review
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2007, 10:44:55 am »

Josh Evans wrote on Tue, 22 May 2007 02:39


That small coax monitor looks interesting there are not many coax monitors that are powered availible in the market that I know of.



The FBT PSR212MA is another self-powered processed 12" co-ax floor monitor.  I love it's performance but believe it is almost twice as heavy as the ADR M1225.

Jeff
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Bennett Prescott

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Re: Eona M1225 review
« Reply #97 on: May 22, 2007, 11:26:49 am »

Josh Evans wrote on Tue, 22 May 2007 02:39

Couple of quick things.  These look like some really good products.  
However I do not see anything mentioned on a PIN1 test.  Is Pin one connected to the chasi?   Also Im assuming a universal power supply.  Will they work over seas?  

That small coax monitor looks interesting there are not many coax monitors that are powered availible in the market that I know of.

The only thing I see missing is a place to stick a leg from a tripod stand like the rat wedge which is really rad.

The SMAART print screens look good, however coherence isnt shown so  and im not sure really how this measurement was taken.  You could also use a time window measurement.

Heya Josh, thanks for chiming in. To answer your questions (except for the monitor thing, which I have never done, but might be interesting at LF)...

Pin 1 is lifted at audio frequencies, grounded at radio frequencies. As you can see from Erik's experience, this works well in most situations, but not all. In order to find a better solution, we've brought in one of the best in the business when it comes to audio shielding and grounding, and we're working through a new method of dealing with the way our products interface at audio and radio frequencies that should make them nearly bulletproof in a wide range of situations.

The power supplies are not universal. On speakers with switching power supplies (like the M 1225 and ATA 118) it is possible for a user who is comfortable with electronics to switch the position of one fuse and adjust between 120 and 240 volt operation. On products with conventional power supplies (like the U 103) it is possible to switch mains voltages by swapping a few wires on the input side of the mains transformer. In either case, protection circuitry exists to ensure that if the wrong voltage is supplied the loudspeaker handles it gracefully (read: does not destroy itself). We are happy to adjust speaker input voltage for users at our factory, or they can have one of our distributors do it, or we can walk them through it over the phone.

As for having a stand mount hole, we decided early on not to try and make this a "one size fits all" box, with flyware and stand mount, etc. Our experiences with speakers like that in the past have been mediocre, and that format is often abused. We don't want to see the M 1225 used as mains or sidefills, the speaker relies upon half-space loading to maintain even bass response down to the stated 52Hz, and its response has been tuned for near field use. I have used them as front fills by standing them up on an edge, and others have gotten some pattern adjustment by sticking 2x4s under the front or back, and that's all well and good. For mains or sidefills, however, we make the U103 and other speakers more powerful that are designed for farther throw and higher output.

As for the Smaart printouts, we took those measurements indoors in an approximately 30'x15'x8' concrete-walled room, with the U103 on a tripod and the M1225 on the floor. The mic was on a stand at my ear height (let's call it 5'6") and in the case of the U103 about 2 meters away. Nothing fancy at all about this setup... we were going to do better measurements outdoors but it started raining and I had a plane to catch.
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Josh Evans

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Re: Eona M1225 review
« Reply #98 on: May 24, 2007, 06:13:02 am »


kewl, let me know if you try out that measurement as I just dont have time to do it my self.
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Joshua Evans

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Langston Holland

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EONA ADRaudio Review
« Reply #99 on: June 13, 2007, 11:14:36 pm »

Well boys and girls, I just learned two things:

1. Slovenia really isn't a make-believe place where elves make cookies in trees.
2. Some of the loudest and best sounding loudspeakers for their size come from elves that live in trees.

I'm the current holder of two U103HH tops, AT118HH subs, M1225HH wedges, a little single rack space mixer/controller to aid the demo users and all the necessary cabling to make it work. Each loudspeaker is beautifully executed, self-amplified and glorious analog. Whoever put this stuff together is a passionate to borderline OCD craftsman.

For those that got their fur up with the "glorious analog" comment, I've yet to hear a digital audio component that didn't to some degree mess up the sound of something that went through it... except... (1) Benchmark D/A converters, (2) the Dolby Lake processor, and (3) whatever that weird stuff is inside my EAW NT29 boxes - so deal with it! Shame on you traitors and cowards who have sold out the beauty of what first attracted you to this sport at the altar of convenience! Oh, the joy of my comfortable little padded white room with those nice men that always feed me when I ring the bell.

Oh yeah, the loudspeakers...

My business is such that I rarely do events with fewer than 500 folks anymore, thus the 10" two-way U103's and single 18" ATA118 subs are not on my hot list to buy. Nevertheless, the day after I picked up the demo speakers, a last minute fancy club gig in Destin FL came up. The second surprise was that the band was quite good. The third surprise was that the band's manager was in charge of a large outdoor event coming up in a couple of months and she was so impressed with the sound that I got the gig - roof, stage, flown speakers, etc.

I want the wedges

What I was really interested in were the active wedges, I've got a dozen 12" Radian Microwedges that I have pleased a whole lot of muso's with - they sound quite good and go loud as stink with their 2" compression drivers. They've also proven very tough, though I do few screamo shows. :) They do have a positive/negative aspect to them in that they have a very narrow pattern where the highs are "right there". On the upside, it forces the muso to live right on top of the wedge to hear things properly thus giving me the ability to keep levels within reason on the stage. On the downside, it forces the muso to live right on top of the wedge to hear things properly thus giving the guy little room to move. The EONA's with their 1.4" compression driver have much broader and smoother HF coverage and give the muso a reasonable amount of wiggle room. Actually, I think the coverage angle of the M1225 is just about a perfect balance. The Radian specs a 90 degree conical coverage while the EONA specs 60. Go figure.

I wasn't in the market for wedges, I was happy. Now I'm unhappy. The M1225's sound substantially better than my best efforts at biamplifying the Radian's. They also weigh about 18lb less including their internal processing and amp. They also are within spittin' distance of the same usable maximum SPL. Still, truth be told, the Radian's are way sexier than the EONA's. I noticed, _I mean I heard_ that in the basement Alex attempted to make up for this with a picture of a young lady donning an EONA shirt. Based on my experience around here, I'd say Alex is innocent and Bennett is guilty until proven guilty.

Another thing I love about the active EONA stuff - no stupid switches (SS) or potentiometers. Who in the world can keep up with all that on a busy stage? IOW, why does my favorite DI, the Radial JDI, have all those SS within grasp of the weirdoes on stage that only experience positive reinforcement for destroying things? I put gaff tape over the SS on my NT29's. And how much did those things cost? Oh yes, I did shoot out the M1225's against the digital heretic's (aka horndawg) NT29 and the latter sounded better. While both have very transparent limiters, the EAW implementation is inaudible to me. The NT29 sounds so good that it makes me laugh every time I hear it. It's that good - like a Danley SH50. Those two boxes are the best I've ever heard in live sound. Nevertheless, the NT29 makes a poor choice for a stage wedge primarily because of its horn layout. Walk off to the side of the woofer and it too quickly gets dark, walk off to the other side and it too quickly gets bright. Oh, but in the middle... Plus it's too expensive to waste on a muso. I dearly hope this isn't the case for the M1225... Bennett!! :)

Measurements

I doubt the little mixer/controller gizmo is part of what you get with the tops and subs, but Alex likely just wanted to make things easier on folks so they wouldn't have to add their own processor to deal with the subs. Nevertheless, I measured the thing to figure it out. It appears to me that though it indicates limiting levels, it does not do any processing besides offering a 70Hz/12dB LP filter with a polarity inversion option for the subs. All the real processing seems to be included inside the loudspeakers. Below are measurements of the U103 and ATA118 outputs without the LP filter (white) and the ATA118 output with the LP filter both in (blue) and out (cyan) of polarity:

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONADemoProcessor.png

With the LP engaged (purple), the sub is -6dB at 105Hz. This is generally a bit high for my taste, but seems to work pretty well with the U103 tops. I'd probably use a 4th order LR low pass filter on the sub as that seems to be the most forgiving slope in this application given our penchant for ye 'ol haystack: (edit: the 2nd order electrical filter combined with the 2nd order acoustic rolloff of the sub achieves the 4th order response I think best, but I'd still prefer the -6dB point down to 90Hz or so.)

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONAATA118Sub.png

I did ground plane measurements on the tops instead of the PV on a stick method to keep things simple. The downside to this is that the LF is boosted a bit from the response they'll exhibit on a tripod. Still, these things measure like they sound, absolutely wonderful. This is one of the best I've ever seen with a nicely behaved phase curve:

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONAU103Top.png

The M1225 wedge is also wonderful, not as polished at the top because of the latter's ability to use a real horn instead of a hole through a woofer pretending to be a horn (right Curtis?). Still, it sounds great and is amazing how loud you have to make it before its red limiting LED comes on. There are two measurements here, in standard wedge position (purple), and in a ground plane setup (white) to avoid the ground bounce cancellation you see between 125Hz and 400Hz. You can see the designer accounted for cancellation with a bit of boost in this region to offset it. This is a good compromise and the end result is a balanced LF output to the muso. I've seen much more of this "wedge ground-bounce cancellation" with other designs and none that I can remember with an offset boost to reduce its depth:

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONAM1225Wedge1.png

Here is the wedge position trace by itself for clarity. This curve sounds great and the dip between 4kHz and 8kHz is likely to offset the typical vocal mic presence boost in this region to result in higher gain before feedback:

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONAM1225Wedge2.png

Measurement Setups

The real version of Smaart (v5.4) with a real computer (MacBook Pro) with a D-Audio sound device and a B&K 4007 omni microphone. I measured at a sample rate of 44.1k and 24 bits using a red sweep stimulus for the subs and pink sweep for the tops and wedges. FPPO is for girls. I increased stimuli (love that word) levels until limiting engaged and then backed off 6dB.

Sub:

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONASub.jpg

Top:

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONATop.jpg

Wedge measured in standard wedge position:

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONAWedgeWedgePosition.jpg

Wedge measured in the ground plane:

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONAWedgeGndPlane.jpg

EONA uses no SS:

http://www.soundscapes-info.com/pub/PSW/EONAWedgeNoSS.jpg
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God bless you and your precious family - Langston

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