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Author Topic: Suggestions for upgrade  (Read 10983 times)

Abel Duenas

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Suggestions for upgrade
« on: September 03, 2011, 09:00:01 PM »

Hi, Im new in this forum, Im the soundman at our church and we want to upgrade the sound system. We currently have 2 JBL MRX 515 on top of 2 PV SP118. We run the subs with a QSC 4050 and the JBL with 2 PV PV900 bridged one for each speaker. Now I was thinking about getting 2 SP3's on top of 2 PV SP218. Since the SP3 is a 3 way would it be an upgrade from the MRX, or would it be more like a side move? Our church is not very big the building not counting the altar is 60'Lx45'Wx18'H and we are about 160 members. Now if I could convince my pastor I would like to get QW 2's over QW 218's. Now my question is would that be overkill? I don't want louder sound I just want better sound and from what I read the QW 2's are made for long throw applications and if there's not too much of a difference between the QW and the SP for our application there's no point in spending more money. What do you guys think? Oh one more thing, we run the speakers through a VSX 26 processor. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2011, 12:24:01 AM »

First off, welcome to the forum. There are a lot of knowledgeable, experienced people in these forums and they are happy to help. If you lurk in any of the other pro audio forums on this board, some of the people there run shows for big-name acts.

But before anyone can help you, we need more information. Can you describe your worship style? What is it about the current system that doesn't meet your expectations? What are the problems you experience? Where in the sanctuary are the speakers placed relative to the stage/altar area and the audience?
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Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Abel Duenas

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Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2011, 01:17:11 AM »

First off, welcome to the forum. There are a lot of knowledgeable, experienced people in these forums and they are happy to help. If you lurk in any of the other pro audio forums on this board, some of the people there run shows for big-name acts.

But before anyone can help you, we need more information. Can you describe your worship style? What is it about the current system that doesn't meet your expectations? What are the problems you experience? Where in the sanctuary are the speakers placed relative to the stage/altar area and the audience?

Thank you Jonathan for the welcoming to this forum :-) Well our worship style is very energetic, its kind of like rock and our music depends a lot on the kick drum and the bass guitar. Right now the kick drum is not strong enough even though I put a D6 on it. To me the SP 118's don't produce the kind of chest-pounding bass that I want, unless I'm doing something wrong which is likely. Now the MRX 515 are ok but the midrange tends to get a little bit lost. The speakers are placed in front of the altar one on each side about 2 feet away from the side walls and 15 feet away from the first row. We have 3 lines of pews and the speakers are pointing to the middle line about halfway. I hope I didn't confuse you with all of that.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2011, 01:36:52 PM »


Are your comments based on what you hear at the mix position or do they apply throughout the listener area?  How is the VSX26 set and what EQ are you applying on the mixer?  Have you tried anything like moving the speakers against the side walls rather than being 2' from them and/or running everything to one channel?  Those might indicate if interactions with the room or between speakers are involved.  Looking at the specifications for the products you noted I have a suspicion that you may get more potential improvement from optimizing what you already have than from simply changing the speaker with those noted.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2011, 01:44:41 PM »

the kick drum is not strong enough even though I put a D6 on it.

Have you tried flipping the polarity on the kick mic to see what happens?  Are you certain your subs are not out of polarity with each other?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 01:58:52 PM by dick rees »
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Abel Duenas

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Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2011, 06:06:52 PM »

Are your comments based on what you hear at the mix position or do they apply throughout the listener area?  How is the VSX26 set and what EQ are you applying on the mixer?  Have you tried anything like moving the speakers against the side walls rather than being 2' from them and/or running everything to one channel?  Those might indicate if interactions with the room or between speakers are involved.  Looking at the specifications for the products you noted I have a suspicion that you may get more potential improvement from optimizing what you already have than from simply changing the speaker with those noted.
Actually the mix position is opposite of the altar on the second floor, where I'm the kick drum sounds good and strong but once I go down to the sanctuary I can hardly hear it though I feel the kick when I touch the pews. We just moved the speakers closer to the walls and its an improvement but still the kick its not strong enough. I checked the polarity of the subs with a battery and they're ok. Now the church itself its an old church that was built around 1950 so I guess it was never designed to accomodate the kind of music that we play, but right now we don't have the budget to put some sound dampening material on the walls. The VSX's crossover is set L-R 24 @ 34 Hz on the subs and L-R 24 @ 100Hz on the MRX. The EQ is almost flat with a slight spike on 80Hz and a -3dB on 600-1500Hz. Now when I EQ'd the room with the AutoEQ on the VSX it gives a flat response from 200Hz-16Khz but it almost kills everything from 40 to 120 Hz. On the EQ I have the subs on a HPF_12 @ 35Hz and the mains on a HPF_12 @ 100Hz Both subs and mains have a Q of 0.707
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Brad Weber

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Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 06:15:09 AM »

The VSX's crossover is set L-R 24 @ 34 Hz on the subs and L-R 24 @ 100Hz on the MRX. The EQ is almost flat with a slight spike on 80Hz and a -3dB on 600-1500Hz. Now when I EQ'd the room with the AutoEQ on the VSX it gives a flat response from 200Hz-16Khz but it almost kills everything from 40 to 120 Hz. On the EQ I have the subs on a HPF_12 @ 35Hz and the mains on a HPF_12 @ 100Hz Both subs and mains have a Q of 0.707
I believe that with the VSX 26 a crossover is a set of bandpass filters with one filter for each related output, thus you should have a high pass setting and a low pass setting for both the subs and the mains.  You also would typically not need an additional high pass filter in the output equalization at the same frequency as the crossover high pass.
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Stu McDoniel

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Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 10:47:00 AM »

Hi, Im new in this forum, Im the soundman at our church and we want to upgrade the sound system. We currently have 2 JBL MRX 515 on top of 2 PV SP118. We run the subs with a QSC 4050 and the JBL with 2 PV PV900 bridged one for each speaker. Now I was thinking about getting 2 SP3's on top of 2 PV SP218. Since the SP3 is a 3 way would it be an upgrade from the MRX, or would it be more like a side move? Our church is not very big the building not counting the altar is 60'Lx45'Wx18'H and we are about 160 members. Now if I could convince my pastor I would like to get QW 2's over QW 218's. Now my question is would that be overkill? I don't want louder sound I just want better sound and from what I read the QW 2's are made for long throw applications and if there's not too much of a difference between the QW and the SP for our application there's no point in spending more money. What do you guys think? Oh one more thing, we run the speakers through a VSX 26 processor. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I would change things around...first off I would run the Peavey bridged amps one each on the subs.  I would run the QSC on the JBL tops and get two more
identical tops and put them further down in the room facing down into the audience about 30ft on the sides of the room.  Keep in mind that when you bridge an amp
and have long cable runs you are drastically affecting damping.  There are other reasons NOT to bridge an amp and run high power.  If you are going to bridge then
put the bridged amps on the subs.  You can run the two JBLs you have up front
and the same JBLs on the sides further back in the room on the QSC with no
problems.   Move the subs together one one side of the stage or the other or better
yet if you can run them together center stage.  You will have MUCH better bass
response and even response in the room by having both subs together in ONE spot
4 JBLS /two up front /two on the side walls angled down into the room about 30ft back running on the QSC.  2 Peavey subs put in one spot coupled together configured as mono subs each running on a Peavey 900 amp bridged.
Things will change in that room big time if you do this
 
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Abel Duenas

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Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 08:19:45 PM »

I would change things around...first off I would run the Peavey bridged amps one each on the subs.  I would run the QSC on the JBL tops and get two more
identical tops and put them further down in the room facing down into the audience about 30ft on the sides of the room.  Keep in mind that when you bridge an amp
and have long cable runs you are drastically affecting damping.  There are other reasons NOT to bridge an amp and run high power.  If you are going to bridge then
put the bridged amps on the subs.  You can run the two JBLs you have up front
and the same JBLs on the sides further back in the room on the QSC with no
problems.   Move the subs together one one side of the stage or the other or better
yet if you can run them together center stage.  You will have MUCH better bass
response and even response in the room by having both subs together in ONE spot
4 JBLS /two up front /two on the side walls angled down into the room about 30ft back running on the QSC.  2 Peavey subs put in one spot coupled together configured as mono subs each running on a Peavey 900 amp bridged.
Things will change in that room big time if you do this
@Brad, so basically the filters that I have set on the outputs are redundant?
@Stu, that's a good idea having 2 more JBL's but will the 2 SP118's be enough having now a 2:1 ratio? I thought about coupling the subs centerstage like you said but wouldn't it be too loud for my pastor since they'd be right in front of the pulpit? Now if I bridge the PV amps would they be enugh since they're 600RMS which is equal to the RMS rating on the SP118's?
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Brad Weber

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Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 10:12:06 PM »

@Brad, so basically the filters that I have set on the outputs are redundant?
It would be unusual to need, for example, a crossover with a band that has a 24dB/octave high pass filter at 100Hz and then also need also a second 12dB/octave high pass filter at that same frequency.  What is also potentially relevant is what the low pass filter settings are for the subwoofer band of the crossover.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Suggestions for upgrade
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 10:12:06 PM »


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