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[Ray Aberle]

Hi there,

First of all, I know very well that Rigging, along with Electrical, is one of those things that "If you have to ask how to do it, you don't do it." Please be assured that all rigging to be done will be done by a certified rigger (per union contract at the venue). I just need to ensure that I am providing the proper supplies to do so.

I am providing a festival setup soon, and we're going to run SRX725s left/right, with a center fill of VRX cabinets off the lip of the lid. The SL100, of course, has all of the rigging points needed. What hardware must I purchase to attach the VRX-AF to the SL100 rigging points?

Thanks for your help!

-Ray Aberle

[Tim McCulloch]

Hi there,

First of all, I know very well that Rigging, along with Electrical, is one of those things that "If you have to ask how to do it, you don't do it." Please be assured that all rigging to be done will be done by a certified rigger (per union contract at the venue). I just need to ensure that I am providing the proper supplies to do so.

I am providing a festival setup soon, and we're going to run SRX725s left/right, with a center fill of VRX cabinets off the lip of the lid. The SL100, of course, has all of the rigging points needed. What hardware must I purchase to attach the VRX-AF to the SL100 rigging points?

Thanks for your help!

-Ray Aberle

What does JBL say in the manual for the VRX?  There is also a manual for the array frame... and JBL also has a document on their web site regarding the SAFE (tm) suspension system.  I suggest you start with the manufacturer's requirements rather than asking here, first.

[Ray Aberle]

What does JBL say in the manual for the VRX?  There is also a manual for the array frame... and JBL also has a document on their web site regarding the SAFE (tm) suspension system.  I suggest you start with the manufacturer's requirements rather than asking here, first.

Tim,

There was some in the VRX manual, but I don't recall it covering this exact question. I have the Array Frames on order, and should have them early next week, and if all of the required hardware is included, then I'm fine. I just hope that someone who has them already can assure me that this is the case, and if not, send me in the right direction.

Thanks!

-Ray

[Tim McCulloch]

Tim,

There was some in the VRX manual, but I don't recall it covering this exact question. I have the Array Frames on order, and should have them early next week, and if all of the required hardware is included, then I'm fine. I just hope that someone who has them already can assure me that this is the case, and if not, send me in the right direction.

Thanks!

-Ray

All of the manuals can be downloaded from www.jblpro.com as can their white paper on array suspension.

They presume a basic level of knowledge of proper rigging principles.  If you aren't there yet you should be talking to a rigger NOW.... but what you need is in the documents I referenced.

[Ray Aberle]

All of the manuals can be downloaded from www.jblpro.com as can their white paper on array suspension.

They presume a basic level of knowledge of proper rigging principles.  If you aren't there yet you should be talking to a rigger NOW.... but what you need is in the documents I referenced.

Thanks for the update, Tim. I see where in the VRX manual it discusses what actually comes with the array frame kit, so that question is answered.

If anyone else can help me with the original question, that would be great.

Thanks!

-Ray Aberle

[Bob Leonard]

All of the manuals can be downloaded from www.jblpro.com as can their white paper on array suspension.

They presume a basic level of knowledge of proper rigging principles.  If you aren't there yet you should be talking to a rigger NOW.... but what you need is in the documents I referenced.

Thanks for the update, Tim. I see where in the VRX manual it discusses what actually comes with the array frame kit, so that question is answered.

If anyone else can help me with the original question, that would be great.

Thanks!

-Ray Aberle

Ray,
I understand your original question but the answer has to be the same as above. download all of the documents and white papers JBL has to offer, read them, understand them, then call JBL and ask for their advice.

[Tim McCulloch]

All of the manuals can be downloaded from www.jblpro.com as can their white paper on array suspension.

They presume a basic level of knowledge of proper rigging principles.  If you aren't there yet you should be talking to a rigger NOW.... but what you need is in the documents I referenced.

Thanks for the update, Tim. I see where in the VRX manual it discusses what actually comes with the array frame kit, so that question is answered.

If anyone else can help me with the original question, that would be great.

Thanks!

-Ray Aberle

Ray,
I understand your original question but the answer has to be the same as above. download all of the documents and white papers JBL has to offer, read them, understand them, then call JBL and ask for their advice.

Bob-

The part that concerns me is that Ray needs to comprehend that suspending this load is a matter of a "system" that begins with finding suitable points of attachment to the structure.  It's not a menu of shackles, slings and hoists.

I'm sure he's is frustrated that nobody has yet to say "do this, this, and this... and use that, those, and them".  I understand that, but to do this safely requires that he take in a body of knowledge and specifications and follow up with consultation with a qualified rigger to determine what he needs beyond the shackles JBL specifies.

But I think you know all that....

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[Ray Aberle]

Thanks for the update, Tim. I see where in the VRX manual it discusses what actually comes with the array frame kit, so that question is answered.

If anyone else can help me with the original question, that would be great.

Thanks!

-Ray Aberle

 
Ray,
I understand your original question but the answer has to be the same as above. download all of the documents and white papers JBL has to offer, read them, understand them, then call JBL and ask for their advice.


Bob-

The part that concerns me is that Ray needs to comprehend that suspending this load is a matter of a "system" that begins with finding suitable points of attachment to the structure.  It's not a menu of shackles, slings and hoists.

I'm sure he's is frustrated that nobody has yet to say "do this, this, and this... and use that, those, and them".  I understand that, but to do this safely requires that he take in a body of knowledge and specifications and follow up with consultation with a qualified rigger to determine what he needs beyond the shackles JBL specifies.

But I think you know all that....

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Hey guys,

Please don't get me wrong, I do appreciate your help, but I think you might have overlooked my original point, that I intentionally emphasized. I know that rigging is a very serious thing. I've read the paperwork that you suggested on JBL's website. None of it covers actual hardware to use. It talks about stress loads and so on, and makes sure that the reader understands the design considerations in putting together a system, but in the end, it doesn't come out and say, "call XED Company and start with these items to safely suspend your VRX-AF to a Stageline100 mobile stage."

I am very eager to continue my growth into rigging practices, and will ensure that when the time comes that *I* am doing it and certifying its structural integrity myself, I will be as qualified as possible, but the initial situation I posed is that I am providing hardware for a certified rigger to suspend, and I want to make sure that I am providing them the right items. It is disappointing that you keep, in essence, pointing me to the driver's manual instead of telling me what kind of tires my car requires. I mean, I'll call JBL if you think that's what I should do next, but I was hoping to get some guidance here first from those who have been in my shoes before.

Thanks,

Ray

[Mike Reilly]

I am providing hardware for a certified rigger to suspend, and I want to make sure that I am providing them the right items.

Ray,

Well, the thing is, you're really kind of asking about buying specific parts for a specific job, and in my experience, rigging supplies are like mic cables - "more than enough" is the correct answer to the question of "how many do I need ?"

I mean, not only are people here going to be reluctant to give potentially dangerous advice on a public forum, but unless they've specifically hung a center fill of VRX off a Stageline 100, nobody's really gonna know what specific parts you need.  And even if somebody here has done that specific job, it's more than likely that they didn't do the job personally - they handed a case full of supplies off to a qualified rigger and said, "have at it."

Which is why Tim & Bob keep suggesting that you need to talk to an actual rigger.

Ideally, you would sit down with the actual guy who's going to be on the gig, with specs from JBL AND Stageline, and the two of you could come up with a specific plan of attack & a list of supplies.

If you can't get together with the actual rigger on the gig, at least have a consultation with another qualified rigger, see what supplies he would suggest, and then buy a couple extra of everything just in case.

Barring that, at the very least, find a rigger and ask, "Basic Rigging Supply Kit 101; what do I need?"

TL;DR version:  For all of our collective years of experience, we are not qualified riggers, and you really need to talk to someone who is.  We're not trying to blow you off, we're admitting our own lack of expertise.

[Ray Aberle]

*snip* but unless they've specifically hung a center fill of VRX off a Stageline 100, nobody's really gonna know what specific parts you need.  *snip*

That was what I was hoping someone had done.

It sounds like there's a possibility that the union folks at the venue (who will be doing the actual work) will have what's needed. A spanset, I gather, which I had heard about already and suspected might have been the answer-- but again, I was hoping that someone who had the hands-on experience of doing this particular job (and StageLines are standardized in the styles of attachment points, so doing any size that comes after this model, the most basic, would be sufficient) would be able to make sure I was prepared.

Again, I think the union guys will take care of it, but it would be nice to know a) what to expect they will use and/or b) be able to provide it. I will inquire as to whether there are any rigging guys around here (in Seattle) that I can talk to about specific hardware a basic kit should contain, and go from there. I'm sure it will contain not only the main things, but smaller items, spares, and the sort.

Thanks again for everyone's input- Bob, Tim, I did gather what you were telling me, and I did reach the white papers I could find (plus anything related to rigging, which were few and far between, i.e. none, other then mechanical certifications) but they simply didn't suggest a path to take. Like Mike just stated, though, with his example about mic cables-- I guess it would be like JBL's VerTec app guide specifying what kind/brand of signal cables you run from the amplifier racks, as opposed to the user determining what they need based on their specific situation (NL4 vs NL8 vs EP6 vs whatever else)!

I learned something new, though, which is good.

-Ray Aberle

[Tim McCulloch]

That was what I was hoping someone had done.

It sounds like there's a possibility that the union folks at the venue (who will be doing the actual work) will have what's needed. A spanset, I gather, which I had heard about already and suspected might have been the answer-- but again, I was hoping that someone who had the hands-on experience of doing this particular job (and StageLines are standardized in the styles of attachment points, so doing any size that comes after this model, the most basic, would be sufficient) would be able to make sure I was prepared.

Again, I think the union guys will take care of it, but it would be nice to know a) what to expect they will use and/or b) be able to provide it. I will inquire as to whether there are any rigging guys around here (in Seattle) that I can talk to about specific hardware a basic kit should contain, and go from there. I'm sure it will contain not only the main things, but smaller items, spares, and the sort.

Thanks again for everyone's input- Bob, Tim, I did gather what you were telling me, and I did reach the white papers I could find (plus anything related to rigging, which were few and far between, i.e. none, other then mechanical certifications) but they simply didn't suggest a path to take. Like Mike just stated, though, with his example about mic cables-- I guess it would be like JBL's VerTec app guide specifying what kind/brand of signal cables you run from the amplifier racks, as opposed to the user determining what they need based on their specific situation (NL4 vs NL8 vs EP6 vs whatever else)!

I learned something new, though, which is good.

-Ray Aberle

Hi Ray-

The union riggers will not provide any supplies, parts or components of a rigging system because they would be individually liable if one of those components should fail for *any* reason.

What you need to own are shackles that have both the specified load capacity and pin diameter (note that not all shackle manufacturers "rate" the pin size the same way) for the VRX Array Frame; you need polyester round slings (SpanSet®) or SteelFlex® round slings; you will probably need wire rope slings (the riggers call it "steel") in various lengths.  If you are going to hang speakers on a regular basis you will need "a whole bunch" of all the above.  How big a bunch?  It depends on your speaker systems, the venues you need to hang them in, and how high you need to hang them.  Motorized chain hoists (CM, Chainmaster, Stagemaker, etc) come into play and are very expensive; rent them if you need them.

Also note that not all shackles are rated for overhead lifting (like the shackles you find at Home Depot or Tractor Supply), and most of us avoid shackles made in China or India.  Preferred brands are Anchor, Columbus-McKinnon, Chicago Hardware.

I think the major consideration is IF you can suspend the VRX where it needs to go on the SL100 lid.  If you can't hang there this whole issue is moot.  Have you talked to the stage provider?

[Ray Aberle]

Hi Ray-

The union riggers will not provide any supplies, parts or components of a rigging system because they would be individually liable if one of those components should fail for *any* reason.

What you need to own are shackles that have both the specified load capacity and pin diameter (note that not all shackle manufacturers "rate" the pin size the same way) for the VRX Array Frame; you need polyester round slings (SpanSet®) or SteelFlex® round slings; you will probably need wire rope slings (the riggers call it "steel") in various lengths.  If you are going to hang speakers on a regular basis you will need "a whole bunch" of all the above.  How big a bunch?  It depends on your speaker systems, the venues you need to hang them in, and how high you need to hang them.  Motorized chain hoists (CM, Chainmaster, Stagemaker, etc) come into play and are very expensive; rent them if you need them.

Also note that not all shackles are rated for overhead lifting (like the shackles you find at Home Depot or Tractor Supply), and most of us avoid shackles made in China or India.  Preferred brands are Anchor, Columbus-McKinnon, Chicago Hardware.

I think the major consideration is IF you can suspend the VRX where it needs to go on the SL100 lid.  If you can't hang there this whole issue is moot.  Have you talked to the stage provider?

Tim-

Awesome, that's super helpful! I've been assured (well, "the union boys should have a span set, and that should really be all it needs...") that the union guys will have the supplies needed, but based on your comments, it seems like I would be well advised to come prepared. I am fairly certain (according the JBL documentation with the Array Frame; those haven't arrived yet...) that I have the right shackles (that will come with the AF) -- so the spansets/slings should be all I need for now. This application (literally) will be two powered VRX cabs to the lid of the SL100 (so chain motors aren't needed) and I very much doubt that this will be a regular thing for awhile still!

It's the production coordinator who has a) told me where he wants them hung from and b) gave me the info regarding the union guys having a spanset that I quoted here. I've used the SLs before, just not to fly from. Again, learning process=good. Making sure things are done right=even better. Getting in over my head=something I'm trying to avoid! I was very direct with my production coordinator about the rigging, in that I wasn't certified to do it, and so we needed to make sure we have people there who are.

Thank you again for your response; it's most helpful.

Ray Aberle

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