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Author Topic: Is it worth it.  (Read 4724 times)

A.J. McGlynn

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Re: Is it worth it.
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2009, 03:51:41 pm »

David Sumrall wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 14:46

yep could be your level, as posted before in the things to check.

The digital signal level is going to be hotter, and gain structure might change as well.

Something might be clipping somewhere.

Or there might be some compression or limiting going on in the dsp that now has a hotter input.

Plus remember your dsp settings as far as eq etc were made to fix the analog sound. You might need different settings for the digi version.

Good luck!

David



The weird thing was the digital signal was much lower than the analog. it was about 10db lower. I think I am going to try it tomorrow with pilot so that I have a better idea of what is going on. I wasn't able to use it today because I didnt have a PC available but will tomorrow.
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A.J. McGlynn, Technical Director
Grace Church
Erie, PA

David Sumrall

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Re: Is it worth it.
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2009, 04:23:51 pm »

hmmmm....

input or output??

remember digital zero is bad, very bad.

I'm wondering if something in the dsp in clamping down.

Also you said you have left as digital and right as analog... are the settings in the dsp split or linked together??


hmmm...
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David Sumrall
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Gateway Church
Soutlake Texas
GatewayPeople.com

Mac Kerr

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Re: Is it?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2009, 05:33:00 pm »

David Sumrall wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 15:46

The digital signal level is going to be hotter, and gain structure might change as well.

Why is that? Why wouldn't it be lower? Why not exactly the same?

Mac
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Is it?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2009, 10:56:40 pm »

Mac Kerr wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 22:33

David Sumrall wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 15:46

The digital signal level is going to be hotter, and gain structure might change as well.

Why is that? Why wouldn't it be lower? Why not exactly the same?


Good question. A digital outputs of a M7 can reasonably be expected to put out digital FS when the analog outputs are at their design maximum output which is 12.28 v rms balanced per Yamaha's spec sheet.

The gain structure of the M7 is the same for analog and digital.

To understand the meaning of maximum signal and dynamic range in the analog domain, you need to know the rated input and output voltages. In the digital domain the maximum signal is digital FS.

Most of us don't walk around with those numbers on the tips of our tongues, so when we go from the analog domain to the digital domain we are likely to be surprised. Wink


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David Sumrall

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Re: Is it?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2009, 11:22:47 pm »

Ha! I guess i need more sleep.

Makes me wonder if our guys had pulled back the analog attenuation on the omnis before we did our trial for this.

Arnold you just went were I was about to go.

I was just digging thru the specs.

So the M7 Fs is based on the Smpte standard vs the EBU standard i guess?

And if it is true AES and it does not clip on the M7 then it should not be clipping on the AES of the dsp.

Hmmm... makes me wonder if some output compensation was done on the m7's omni out attenuation for the left right then to make the analog out hotter.

But what is making the digital side sound bad?? bad cable or terminations, settings in dsp?  Is that also affecting the level?

what dsp inputs are thing routed into? could there be an issue with trying to use the same pair of inputs split analog and digital?

any luck using pilot?

hmmmmmmmmmm

David



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David Sumrall
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Gateway Church
Soutlake Texas
GatewayPeople.com

Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Is it?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2009, 09:25:35 am »

David Sumrall wrote on Fri, 13 February 2009 04:22


Makes me wonder if our guys had pulled back the analog attenuation on the omnis before we did our trial for this.




Quote:


So the M7 Fs is based on the Smpte standard vs the EBU standard i guess?



In the digital domain, I don't see how that could matter.

Quote:


And if it is true AES and it does not clip on the M7 then it should not be clipping on the AES of the dsp.



If there's clipping on the DSP side, it is probably clipping inside the DSP. A proper digital input cannot in of itself clip.

Quote:



Hmmm... makes me wonder if some output compensation was done on the m7's omni out attenuation for the left right then to make the analog out hotter.



I cold be wrong, but the most likely scenario would be that the analog and digital inputs on the DSP are somehow set up differently. Different gains?

Quote:


But what is making the digital side sound bad?? bad cable or terminations, settings in dsp?  Is that also affecting the level?



One of the general rule of digital is that cables strongly tend to either work or not work. Little if any middle ground. The middle ground will usually take the form of lost signal, clicks and pops, etc.  Levels definitely should not change in the cable, and tonal balance cannot change in the cable.





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A.J. McGlynn

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Re: Is it?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2009, 11:47:32 am »

Ok

Here is what I found today.

I setup the patching different today. yesterday I set it up this way. left channel of board setup as AES CH1 running the left cluster. I used the center channel to run the right cluster as analog. This gave me terrible results and I replicated them today.

Today I setup the patching like this.
Left output of console into left cluster as analog. Right output as AES CH2 into right cluster. This gave me good results and I could hardly tell a difference and Im not 100% sure I heard any difference at all.

These results got me thinking. Why dont I run both Left and Right clusters with AES and see if I get a difference between the 2 since I did in my previous tests. I ran them both and checked each cluster and they sounded the same.

I am baffled by my first test but it does seem to work in an actually working setup so I might consider getting a digital output card now.

Thanks for all the help!
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A.J. McGlynn, Technical Director
Grace Church
Erie, PA

Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Is it?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2009, 12:44:50 pm »

Why?

I have been on UX8800's that have been driven digital. I don't think there was any appreciable difference in sound quality over analog. If you need the analog omnis for something else then by all means use a digital card instead of an analog card. However if this is just for giggles why don't you spend the money on something else? A DPA headmic is something most churches don't have and could use (depending on the preacher).

Karl P


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David Sumrall

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Re: Is it?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2009, 02:08:15 pm »

Ok.. so the center cluster sounded different??

hmmmm, is it setup as a vocal only, or speech only routing thing, and maybe the dsp is setup to work for that purpose.

I've seen this before, and running music through the vocal processed center would make the music sound like dookie whether analog or digital.

Take a look in pilot and see if there is a high pass that is higher then the left and right, and if a parametric is severely tweaked vs the left and right.

This type of setup works well for some, while others prefer having all clusters processed the same.
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David Sumrall
Audio Engineer
Gateway Church
Soutlake Texas
GatewayPeople.com
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