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[Aaron Martin]

Okay, this is my first post.

I'm the bassist and backup drummer in my church and even though I don't actually mix for the services, I get to take care of all of our techie problems.

Here's where I need help:

We have a set of Roland TD-12 Electric Drums that we are having problems getting the snare to cut through the mix. I have tried to adjust the slider on the module, but then the snare is way too loud in our monitors. We have a Allen & Heath GL-2400 Bi-amp mono setup with an Aviom system for monitors. Drummers use either Shure E-2's or E-5's. Is there any tips on how to get the snare in the mix better without blowing our ears out in the monitors?

BTW, the drums are run direct through a cheap passive DI.

Please help me!

Thanks,
Aaron

[DaveGetting]

I'm not a drummer (played one year in elementary school) and I've only been exposed to one electronic drum set...

That said - when I was was toying around with the different settings it seemed as though there was a way to adjust the loudness of each pad within the controller.  I know you can adjust the sensitivity and what sounds come from each pad.  Or maybe a different snare sound will come across louder?

I'd find the manual for your controller and see if there is a setting for that.

As a fake drummer...I have a strong dislike for fake drums.  

[Aaron Martin]

Yes that's correct. The drum module has sliders and editing features for the snare and the whole kit, but that's the problem when I adjust the snare slider, it's too loud in the monitor mix and the drummer can't stand it. I agree about the "fake" drums, but the V-drums work out nicely for having a good clean mix and hardly anyone complains about it being too loud being every instrument is ran direct!

[DaveGetting]

Can you lessen the monitor level of the entire drum set - or does he lose too much of the rest?  Find a middle ground?  Tell him to hit the snare harder

I definitely agree with being able to control the volume better with an electronic set.  The set we used lost a lot of the 'touch' of a real drum set.  I know in rock there isn't much need - but it's hard to use brushes on an electronic set.  We're very fortunate in that our drummer has a very soft touch.  I never thought I'd see the day when we had our set mic'd.  

[John Ward]

Send two signals to the monitor console - From V Drum controller: pan all drums except snare left / DI to console; pan snare right / DI to console - send both to Aviom. If you are short on Aviom channels find two compatable insts. / vocals that can live together. Let the monitor engineer send an adequate signal for (everything) and adj. as desired on stage.

[John Ward]

Or continue sending the same signal you are sending now (with a moderate level snare) and use another of the (eight? - can't remember right now) outputs to send the snare at a different level......to another channel / aviom channel. It can be eq'ed at the console for more "cut" (whatever your definition of that is). Adding some high-mid (1.2-16K) will give you more of an 'attack' quality; adding some 180-260hz will give you a fatter sound. Play with what you have till you get something satisfactory to all.

[Jeff Ekstrand]

Can you send the snare down it's own channel on the snake, and take the direct-out from that channel to the Aviom? This will also help your snare cut through in the FOH mix because you'll be able to EQ it serparate from the rest of the drum kit.

When I've used V-Drums (or other such electronic drum kits) at churches in the past, I always split them into at least four channels. Usually Kick, Snare, Toms, and Cymbals.

You can then send direct outs, or a combined mix of all the drums from the console, down the Aviom line, depending on how many available channels you have on your Aviom mixers.

Without that, you're never really going to find an adequate solution given the fact that your entire drum mix is done at the kit. Plus, putting the mix in the hands of the musicians can be dangerous, even if they are professional audio guys in their day jobs... I shouldn't be trusted to mix anything except my own monitor when I'm playing guitar with the band.

[Aaron Martin]

Thanks for all of the great input. Much appreciated. I would like to send more channels to the mixer, but our module (TD-12) only has Left,Right, and 2 Direct outs. I might be able to route the snare to the left output and the rest of the kit to the right. Any thoughts on this? Also would you recommend using an active DI with an electric kit?

[Jeff Ekstrand]

I'd just stick with a basic, passive DI.

Can you route specific triggers to the direct outs?

[John Ward]

Aaron: Keep it simple; route left and right as per my earlier suggestion; use two passive DI's as stated by Jeff; adjust level of snare as necessary at console and then individually on stage at the Avioms. Find a way to seperate the two so that the band can play and worship in harmony. If this means combining other (like) channels on a submaster / whatever and then to the Aviom, do it.

[Arnold B. Krueger]

Aaron Martin wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 21:22

We have a set of Roland TD-12 Electric Drums that we are having problems getting the snare to cut through the mix.

We have TD-12s and they seem to get the job done.

Electronic drums can be harder to play, but our drummers just adapt.

Quote:

I have tried to adjust the slider on the module, but then the snare is way too loud in our monitors. We have a Allen & Heath GL-2400 Bi-amp mono setup with an Aviom system for monitors. Drummers use either Shure E-2's or E-5's. Is there any tips on how to get the snare in the mix better without blowing our ears out in the monitors?

I have an 02R96 which has 4 band parametric eq on every input and most outputs including the auxes. I suspect that you could implement my approach with any good external eq, either graphic or parametric.

We also have an aux channel and stage monitor dedicated to the drummer. I think you have similar facilities available to you.

My basic approach is to change the equalization for the  the drummer's stage monitor with the *inverse* of the change I want to make in the FOH.

If I want more kick in the FOH, then I cut the bass (< 200 Hz) in the drummer's monitor. If I want more small drums, then I cut the midrange (400-2K), and if I want more cymbals, I cut the treble (> 2 Khz).

When I do this during rehearsal, I can generally see the drummer almost instantly reach out and adjust the gain controls for the individual synth sounds on the TD 12 controller to undo what just I changed in his monitor feed.

Then, the FOH becomes what I want, and he has the monitor sound he wants.

[Jeff Ekstrand]

Quote:

We also have an aux channel and stage monitor dedicated to the drummer. I think you have similar facilities available to you. My basic approach is to change the equalization for the the drummer's stage monitor with the *inverse* of the change I want to make in the FOH. If I want more kick in the FOH, then I cut the bass (< 200 Hz) in the drummer's monitor. If I want more small drums, then I cut the midrange (400-2K), and if I want more cymbals, I cut the treble (> 2 Khz). When I do this during rehearsal, I can generally see the drummer almost instantly reach out and adjust the gain controls for the individual synth sounds on the TD 12 controller to undo what just I changed in his monitor feed. Then, the FOH becomes what I want, and he has the monitor sound he wants.

Unfortunately, the OP states that he's using Avioms. Any EQ changes have to be made at the channel strip, which means any changes made by the drummer nullify any changes he made at the board.

[Arnold B. Krueger]

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Wed, 11 February 2009 19:48

Quote: I suspect that you could implement my approach with any good external eq, either graphic or parametric. We also have an aux channel and stage monitor dedicated to the drummer. I think you have similar facilities available to you. My basic approach is to change the equalization for the the drummer's stage monitor with the *inverse* of the change I want to make in the FOH. If I want more kick in the FOH, then I cut the bass (< 200 Hz) in the drummer's monitor. If I want more small drums, then I cut the midrange (400-2K), and if I want more cymbals, I cut the treble (> 2 Khz). When I do this during rehearsal, I can generally see the drummer almost instantly reach out and adjust the gain controls for the individual synth sounds on the TD 12 controller to undo what just I changed in his monitor feed. Then, the FOH becomes what I want, and he has the monitor sound he wants. Unfortunately, the OP states that he's using Avioms.

...which are usually connected to direct outs, which may be switched to pre fade, pre eq; pre fade post eq, or post fade, post eq.

http://www.allen-heath.com/DL/gl2400_blockdiagram.pdf

Quote:

Any EQ changes have to be made at the channel strip,

Not if there is a separate eq in line with the monitor (Aviom) path which I suggested in the post you have partially quoted. I put back the text you deleted when you quoted me, for whatever reason.

Jeff, I don't know why you deleted this critical text, but deleting it certainly did no good for anybody. Deleting this text did make your comment appear to be relevant.

Quote:

which means any changes made by the drummer nullify any changes he made at the board.

Since the GL2400 is analog, isn't the connection from  the board to the Aviom system analog, and therefore can't outboard eq added to that analog path as I suggested in my earlier post?

[Jeff Ekstrand]

Quote:

Jeff, I don't know why you deleted this critical text, but deleting it certainly did no good for anybody. Deleting this text did make your comment appear to be relevant.

Sorry, I misread your post, and failed to take into account that the external EQ you were mentioning would go on an aux out of the board feeding the Aviom.

You mentioned putting an EQ on the "drummer's monitor," which lead me to think you were thinking along the lines of a wedge or PSM mix, and that these EQ changes you would make would be for that purpose. This idea made less sense to me because any EQ changes made to that sort of EQ signal chain would affect more than the tone of the drums.

I did not leave out "critical text" on purpose, and am not in the habit of taking things out of context. Please know that this was not intended to slight you in any way. It was a simple misread of your previous post.

Arnold, the way the post looked to me it seemed a bit unlike most of your other posts (most of them look like your response to mine; Very, very detailed and technical). I figured you may have misread the thread somewhere, and did not mean for my post to insult you in any way.

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